RE: [ACFUG Discuss] CF Applications hosted on third party webserver/hosting services

[Charlie Arehart]

Here's another of the old notes that didn't make it...

 

 

From: Charlie Arehart [mailto:careh...@carehart.org] 
Sent: Tuesday, February 24, 2009 11:29 PM
To: 'discussion@acfug.org'
Subject: RE: [ACFUG Discuss] CF Applications hosted on third party
webserver/hosting services

 

Ajas, you shouldn't notice any overhead from this slow page logging, no. Of
course, you could if your server activity caused it to log huge amounts
quickly, but it's not typical (and not likely, because if you have a LOT of
slow requests-enough to log so many as to wonder whether to worry-you'd in
fact then not likely get many running at a high rate of requests/sec.)

 

You ask for any suggestions on using this feature. One thing I'll point out
is that Ray Camden has a tool to help find within the server.log file the
entries that are generated by this feature. They can be easy to miss,
otherwise. Learn more in my category on CF Log Analysis Tools at
http://www.carehart.org/cf411/#cflog, where I point to a couple of blog
entries he's done on the tool (different for 7 and 8).

 

I'll also say this: be aware that this tracks requests only once they
complete, not as soon as they cross the threshold you set. This confuses
many, both because they look at the log at a point in time during the day
and conclude, "we don't see any entries in the log right now, so we must not
have any long running at the moment." Au contraire, mon fraire. ;-} They
could be running and will not log until they complete. Similarly, if your
server crashes, you won't have any record of these long-running requests (by
way of this log, at least) if they are still running at the time of the
crash.

 

Just something to keep in mind. They're certainly better than nothing. 

 

Better still is a tool like the CF8 Server Monitor (free if you have CF8
Enterprise) or FusionReactor or SeeFusion (commercial for CF 6, 7, and 8,
standard or enterprise). All 3 will provide an interface to show you what
requests are running at any time, and FusionReactor goes farther than the
other two to also log the requests-all of them, not just slow ones, which
can be really valuable, especially for post mortem analysis after a crash,
to see what led up to it, what was running at the time of the crash, and
even for evaluating how requests ran long before the time of a crash, which
can be very enlightening. I recommend for that a free tool to analyze any
kind of log, called Microsoft Log Parser. You can learn more about it, and
specifically using it with FusionReactor logs, at:

 

http://groups.google.com/group/fusionreactor/web/log-parser-commands-for-fr-
3

 

Hope that's helpful, both for you and your question about the slow request
log and for other aspects of doing similar analysis.

 

/charlie

 

From: ad...@acfug.org [mailto:ad...@acfug.org] On Behalf Of Ajas Mohammed
Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2009 1:39 PM
To: discussion@acfug.org
Subject: Re: [ACFUG Discuss] CF Applications hosted on third party
webserver/hosting services

 

Hi,

Teddy, I found the setting you mentioned to track slow running pages. If you
go to Administrator, Debugging & Logging, the third option is Logging
Settings. The first checkbox option provides the option to record slow
running pages, which gets logged in server.log file. The initial setting is
30 seconds. I am thinking of making this 10. Any suggestions?

Also, lets say I enable this logging on production server for 5-15 minutes
during work hours, is it going to be an issue or CF is smart enough to write
log file and people wouldn't notice the slowness?

Let me know.

Thanks,



 




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RE: how did cfid/cftoken get exposed? RE: [ACFUG Discuss] CF Applications hosted on third party webserver/hosting services

[Charlie Arehart]

Here's another of the old notes that didn't make it...

 

 

From: Charlie Arehart [mailto:careh...@carehart.org] 
Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2009 12:11 AM
To: 'discussion@acfug.org'
Subject: how did cfid/cftoken get exposed? RE: [ACFUG Discuss] CF
Applications hosted on third party webserver/hosting services

 

Allen, thanks. It was indeed pretty odd to see Shawn sharing a URL from my
site that looked like that. I don't have any place I know that exposes the
CFID/CFTOKEN.  I don't have any page doing a CFLOCATION with AddToken="yes"
(I never add that). Anyone know how else it may pop up? As for session
hijacking, that's not really a worry, though. I really have no session-based
stuff on the site for regular users.

 

/charlie

 

From: ad...@acfug.org [mailto:ad...@acfug.org] On Behalf Of
axunderw...@ups.com
Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 2:37 PM
To: discussion@acfug.org
Subject: RE: [ACFUG Discuss] CF Applications hosted on third party
webserver/hosting services

 

That's awesome - I wonder if someone can hijack your session?!  Charlie, how
secure is your site?!  =)

 

  _  

From: ad...@acfug.org [mailto:ad...@acfug.org] On Behalf Of shawn gorrell
Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 2:29 PM
To: discussion@acfug.org
Subject: Re: [ACFUG Discuss] CF Applications hosted on third party
webserver/hosting services

For anyone that needs tool advice, I'd recommend bookmarking this link to
Charlie's site. 

http://www.carehart.org/cf411/?CFID=155996&CFTOKEN=14df06d00161ffbb-85B4F706
-90BC-5757-5CD21E2BC185306B




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RE: [ACFUG Discuss] CF Applications hosted on third party webserver/hosting services

[Charlie Arehart]

Here's another of the old notes that didn't make it...

 

 

From: Charlie Arehart [mailto:careh...@carehart.org] 
Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 10:54 PM
To: 'discussion@acfug.org'
Subject: RE: [ACFUG Discuss] CF Applications hosted on third party
webserver/hosting services

 

Ajas, I've seen the replies from others. There are often many things that
can apply to problems like this. You've gotten good feedback to start.
There's also a rather dated PDF for sale at http://www.cfperformance.com/,
which may help.

 

I'll throw out that solving these sort of problems is just what I do, on a
consulting basis (often for as little as an hour or less). More at
carehart.org/consulting/. There are others who do this as well, and I list
them at http://www.cf411.com/#cfconsult. My focus is not just to "fix the
problem" but also to educate my clients to be able to better identify and
resolve things on their own next time. There are a lot of facets to this,
and knowing the right solution for a specific problem can be challenging. I
focus on showing the diagnostic tools to help give you the info to make an
effective decision to make changes (often configuration, not coding).
Sometimes I'm brought in for days at a time, as this week, where I'm working
with a large publishing company in the mid-west, so I may not be able to
reply to more messages in this thread, for several hours tomorrow. Hope you
resolve your issue.

 

/charlie

 

From: ad...@acfug.org [mailto:ad...@acfug.org] On Behalf Of Ajas Mohammed
Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 2:00 PM
To: discussion@acfug.org
Subject: [ACFUG Discuss] CF Applications hosted on third party
webserver/hosting services

 

Hi,

Before I go to google and search for *performance optimization* &
*monitoring* CF Applications, and how to check what parts are killing the
application, I thought I would ask here first.

We have application which is doing well supporting lot of clients. We are CF
7, IIS, Windows Server 2003 shop.

We have about 6 - 8 applications, all same code base, hosted on third party
hosting services. I can access CF Admin etc.

As the transactions are growing, we have noticed that its getting slower and
slower.

So any inputs as to how to track 

1. what part of cf code is running slow 
2. any tools (if open source that would be nice) . I remember CF also has
something, but never had chance to look at it.
3. most importantly, how do i get started monitoring load etc on the CF
Server.

Thanks for your patience and apologies, if I have missed any information
that you need to answer my questions.

FYI, I wanted to do this long time back, but could not because of work
deadlines but looks like I have to find time to sort this critical issue
ASAP.



http://ajashadi.blogspot.com
We cannot become what we need to be, remaining what we are.
No matter what, find a way. Because thats what winners do.
You can't improve what you don't measure.
Quality is never an accident; it is always the result of high intention,
sincere effort, intelligent direction and skillful execution; it represents
the wise choice of many alternatives.




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Re: [ACFUG Discuss] CF Applications hosted on third party webserver/hosting services

[Ajas Mohammed]

Thanks Teddy, I appreciate your input. That was very helpful and it makes
lot of sense.

Assuming you choose 10 seconds for your threshold, If you have a template
> that runs 45 seconds three times a week versus a template that is 25 seconds
> that runs 100+ times a week.  You may want to choose the 25 second template.

Good example. We are in second case. Some templates which are run every day
and may take 5 secs to render, but imagine 1000's of users using same page
and probably it adds up on the server and results in slow performance.

How often is the log being written to?  When was the last time that you
> backed up your log files and purged them?
>
Dont beat me up people, but we dont have a policy yet. So, what are the logs
you need to constantly monitor??? Any tips you want to provide as to what to
look for and how often you need to monitor?

Also, how will you figure out which templates are slow in production if you
> are not monitoring them for a certain period of time?  5-10 minutes is not
> an accurate snapshot of your business cycle, unless all of your business
> happens in that 5-10 minutes.

Very true. I thought 5-10 minutes because this will be first time I will
monitor something, so I wanted to to start small. Then I could start
monitoring more as I start understanding what is happening, why pages are
running slow etc.

FYI, just to clarify, no one has asked me to do all this, so please *do not
think* that I am not doing my work. I have tons of development lined up but
at the same time, I want everything we do, to be best and efficient, and
since somebody has to stand up for it, I am the one who wants to go for it.
I believe in best practices,efficiency, clean code etc and I am trying my
best to make sure that our projects are developed based of these ideologies.

Thanks again.


http://ajashadi.blogspot.com
We cannot become what we need to be, remaining what we are.
No matter what, find a way. Because thats what winners do.
You can't improve what you don't measure.
Quality is never an accident; it is always the result of high intention,
sincere effort, intelligent direction and skillful execution; it represents
the wise choice of many alternatives.


On Mon, Feb 23, 2009 at 8:52 AM, Teddy R. Payne wrote:

> Ajas,
> Slow running pages are subjective.  You have to consider two aspects when
> considering thresholds for slow running page logging.
>
> What is slow to you as a developer?
> What is slow to the business?
>
> Typically, the developer will shoot low and the business will estimate
> high.  You have to find a medium using these thresholds.
>
> You also have to choose your level of effort or your "battles".  You have
> to create a priority scheme.
>
> Assuming you choose 10 seconds for your threshold, If you have a template
> that runs 45 seconds three times a week versus a template that is 25 seconds
> that runs 100+ times a week.  You may want to choose the 25 second template.
>
> Now, add in complexity.  How critical is a given template?  How complex is
> it to possibly troubleshoot the interfaces that touch the template?
>
> So, what you will more than likely develop is a set of rules.  Not just one
> blanket value for slow running pages will solve all of your slow running
> business processes.
>
> Any file I/O to the operating system does introduce some overhead when
> writing to the log.  How often is the log being written to?  When was the
> last time that you backed up your log files and purged them?
>
> Also, how will you figure out which templates are slow in production if you
> are not monitoring them for a certain period of time?  5-10 minutes is not
> an accurate snapshot of your business cycle, unless all of your business
> happens in that 5-10 minutes.
>
>
> Teddy R. Payne, ACCFD
> Google Talk - teddyrpa...@gmail.com
>
>
>
> On Sun, Feb 22, 2009 at 1:38 PM, Ajas Mohammed  wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> Teddy, I found the setting you mentioned to track slow running pages. If
>> you go to Administrator, Debugging & Logging, the third option is Logging
>> Settings. The first checkbox option provides the option to record slow
>> running pages, which gets logged in server.log file. The initial setting is
>> 30 seconds. I am thinking of making this 10. Any suggestions?
>>
>> Also, lets say I enable this logging on production server for 5-15 minutes
>> during work hours, is it going to be an issue or CF is smart enough to write
>> log file and people wouldn't notice the slowness?
>>
>> Let me know.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> 
>> http://ajashadi.blogspot.com
>> We cannot become what we need to be, remaining what we are.
>> No matter what, find a way. Because thats what winners do.
>> You can't improve what you don't measure.
>> Quality is never an accident; it is always the result of high intention,
>> sincere effort, intelligent direction and skillful execution; it represents
>> the wise choice of many alternatives.
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Feb 17, 2009 at 4:05 PM, Teddy R. Payne wrote:
>>
>>> Ajas,
>

Re: [ACFUG Discuss] CF Applications hosted on third party webserver/hosting services

[Teddy R. Payne]

Ajas,
Slow running pages are subjective.  You have to consider two aspects when
considering thresholds for slow running page logging.

What is slow to you as a developer?
What is slow to the business?

Typically, the developer will shoot low and the business will estimate
high.  You have to find a medium using these thresholds.

You also have to choose your level of effort or your "battles".  You have to
create a priority scheme.

Assuming you choose 10 seconds for your threshold, If you have a template
that runs 45 seconds three times a week versus a template that is 25 seconds
that runs 100+ times a week.  You may want to choose the 25 second template.

Now, add in complexity.  How critical is a given template?  How complex is
it to possibly troubleshoot the interfaces that touch the template?

So, what you will more than likely develop is a set of rules.  Not just one
blanket value for slow running pages will solve all of your slow running
business processes.

Any file I/O to the operating system does introduce some overhead when
writing to the log.  How often is the log being written to?  When was the
last time that you backed up your log files and purged them?

Also, how will you figure out which templates are slow in production if you
are not monitoring them for a certain period of time?  5-10 minutes is not
an accurate snapshot of your business cycle, unless all of your business
happens in that 5-10 minutes.


Teddy R. Payne, ACCFD
Google Talk - teddyrpa...@gmail.com



On Sun, Feb 22, 2009 at 1:38 PM, Ajas Mohammed  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> Teddy, I found the setting you mentioned to track slow running pages. If
> you go to Administrator, Debugging & Logging, the third option is Logging
> Settings. The first checkbox option provides the option to record slow
> running pages, which gets logged in server.log file. The initial setting is
> 30 seconds. I am thinking of making this 10. Any suggestions?
>
> Also, lets say I enable this logging on production server for 5-15 minutes
> during work hours, is it going to be an issue or CF is smart enough to write
> log file and people wouldn't notice the slowness?
>
> Let me know.
>
> Thanks,
>
> 
> http://ajashadi.blogspot.com
> We cannot become what we need to be, remaining what we are.
> No matter what, find a way. Because thats what winners do.
> You can't improve what you don't measure.
> Quality is never an accident; it is always the result of high intention,
> sincere effort, intelligent direction and skillful execution; it represents
> the wise choice of many alternatives.
>
>
> On Tue, Feb 17, 2009 at 4:05 PM, Teddy R. Payne wrote:
>
>> Ajas,
>> I would equate a QA server to a staging environment.  The reason that I
>> ask this is not ncessary to load test, but it may be a safer location to run
>> your server monitoring tools to see if the same issues are present.
>>
>> As people have suggested various items that could cause prblems for
>> performance, you really just need to take a moment and look at your code to
>> evaluate what parts of your code are external to CF.  Database calls,
>> webservice calls, imported API(s) or just about anything that would
>> interface with your application are all subject to scrutiny for performance
>> troubleshooting.  How you consume external resources and process them
>> internally can cause unidentified issues.
>>
>> Teddy R. Payne, ACCFD
>> Google Talk - teddyrpa...@gmail.com
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Feb 17, 2009 at 3:58 PM, Ajas Mohammed wrote:
>>
>>> Thanks again everyone.
>>>
>>> Teddy, we have staging which we call QA (Quality Assurance) and this is
>>> not hosted on third party hosting service. Its here in our local network and
>>> we allow clients to test functionality or new stuff on this QA setup. Dont
>>> know if this could be an issue because typically you would expect staging to
>>> be exact replica of production in terms of machine, setup etc. We have exact
>>> setup, but processing power and number of hits etc are definitely different.
>>>
>>> So let me ask this, do you need to have staging setup locally or remotely
>>> because in my case, we have main application on third party hosting site.
>>>
>>> John, Yeah I agree at SQL stuff  you mentioned. We are looking at that
>>> also. But as you mentioned, there are things which needs to be changed in CF
>>> code like unnecessary calls to a table or not filtering results etc.
>>>
>>> The other thing is all these applications we have use client variables
>>> stored in database. All login etc is done by client variables.
>>>
>>>
>>> 
>>> http://ajashadi.blogspot.com
>>> We cannot become what we need to be, remaining what we are.
>>> No matter what, find a way. Because thats what winners do.
>>> You can't improve what you don't measure.
>>> Quality is never an accident; it is always the result of high intention,
>>> sincere effort, intelligent direction and skillful execution; it represents
>>> the wise choice of many alternatives.
>>>
>>>
>>>   On Tue, Feb 17, 2009 at

Re: [ACFUG Discuss] CF Applications hosted on third party webserver/hosting services

[Ajas Mohammed]

Hi,

Teddy, I found the setting you mentioned to track slow running pages. If you
go to Administrator, Debugging & Logging, the third option is Logging
Settings. The first checkbox option provides the option to record slow
running pages, which gets logged in server.log file. The initial setting is
30 seconds. I am thinking of making this 10. Any suggestions?

Also, lets say I enable this logging on production server for 5-15 minutes
during work hours, is it going to be an issue or CF is smart enough to write
log file and people wouldn't notice the slowness?

Let me know.

Thanks,


http://ajashadi.blogspot.com
We cannot become what we need to be, remaining what we are.
No matter what, find a way. Because thats what winners do.
You can't improve what you don't measure.
Quality is never an accident; it is always the result of high intention,
sincere effort, intelligent direction and skillful execution; it represents
the wise choice of many alternatives.


On Tue, Feb 17, 2009 at 4:05 PM, Teddy R. Payne wrote:

> Ajas,
> I would equate a QA server to a staging environment.  The reason that I ask
> this is not ncessary to load test, but it may be a safer location to run
> your server monitoring tools to see if the same issues are present.
>
> As people have suggested various items that could cause prblems for
> performance, you really just need to take a moment and look at your code to
> evaluate what parts of your code are external to CF.  Database calls,
> webservice calls, imported API(s) or just about anything that would
> interface with your application are all subject to scrutiny for performance
> troubleshooting.  How you consume external resources and process them
> internally can cause unidentified issues.
>
> Teddy R. Payne, ACCFD
> Google Talk - teddyrpa...@gmail.com
>
>
>
> On Tue, Feb 17, 2009 at 3:58 PM, Ajas Mohammed  wrote:
>
>> Thanks again everyone.
>>
>> Teddy, we have staging which we call QA (Quality Assurance) and this is
>> not hosted on third party hosting service. Its here in our local network and
>> we allow clients to test functionality or new stuff on this QA setup. Dont
>> know if this could be an issue because typically you would expect staging to
>> be exact replica of production in terms of machine, setup etc. We have exact
>> setup, but processing power and number of hits etc are definitely different.
>>
>> So let me ask this, do you need to have staging setup locally or remotely
>> because in my case, we have main application on third party hosting site.
>>
>> John, Yeah I agree at SQL stuff  you mentioned. We are looking at that
>> also. But as you mentioned, there are things which needs to be changed in CF
>> code like unnecessary calls to a table or not filtering results etc.
>>
>> The other thing is all these applications we have use client variables
>> stored in database. All login etc is done by client variables.
>>
>>
>> 
>> http://ajashadi.blogspot.com
>> We cannot become what we need to be, remaining what we are.
>> No matter what, find a way. Because thats what winners do.
>> You can't improve what you don't measure.
>> Quality is never an accident; it is always the result of high intention,
>> sincere effort, intelligent direction and skillful execution; it represents
>> the wise choice of many alternatives.
>>
>>
>>   On Tue, Feb 17, 2009 at 3:24 PM, John Mason wrote:
>>
>>> Charlie's 411 page has the complete list of these tools. SeeFusion and
>>> Fusion Reactor really help in this stuff. If the apps have been running fine
>>> to some time, one of the most common things I see these days is the growth
>>> and mis-management of datasources. As records keep building up in the
>>> database, you have to really consider the impact of some of your code but
>>> also the data it's pulling. For example, doing a "select *" on a table with
>>> 1000 records doesn't take anything. Do a "select *" on a table with several
>>> years of data going into millions of records could cause some serious
>>> problems. Certain sql operations will place a lock on a table which could be
>>> expensive and slow down the entire app. Or improper or poor table column
>>> indexing could result in full table scans with your innocent looking sql
>>> calls. The point here is that in many cases CF code can be optimized but
>>> it's a good idea to take a close hard look at what the datasource is doing
>>> internally, specially with applications that have been running for several
>>> years.
>>>
>>> SQL Server Management studio has a Data Execution plan toggle that you
>>> can use to see the process Sql Serve uses to execute a sql call. Typically,
>>> You want to avoid things like full table scans or expensive table locks that
>>> make everything run a lot slower. There's plenty of blogs, books and
>>> articles talking about SQL Server optimization.
>>>
>>> John
>>> ma...@fusionlink.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Ramirez, Ruben - Curtis 1000 wrote:
>>>
  SeeFusion has been an invaluable tool for us. 

Re: [ACFUG Discuss] CF Applications hosted on third party webserver/hosting services

[Teddy R. Payne]

Ajas,
I would equate a QA server to a staging environment.  The reason that I ask
this is not ncessary to load test, but it may be a safer location to run
your server monitoring tools to see if the same issues are present.

As people have suggested various items that could cause prblems for
performance, you really just need to take a moment and look at your code to
evaluate what parts of your code are external to CF.  Database calls,
webservice calls, imported API(s) or just about anything that would
interface with your application are all subject to scrutiny for performance
troubleshooting.  How you consume external resources and process them
internally can cause unidentified issues.

Teddy R. Payne, ACCFD
Google Talk - teddyrpa...@gmail.com



On Tue, Feb 17, 2009 at 3:58 PM, Ajas Mohammed  wrote:

> Thanks again everyone.
>
> Teddy, we have staging which we call QA (Quality Assurance) and this is not
> hosted on third party hosting service. Its here in our local network and we
> allow clients to test functionality or new stuff on this QA setup. Dont know
> if this could be an issue because typically you would expect staging to be
> exact replica of production in terms of machine, setup etc. We have exact
> setup, but processing power and number of hits etc are definitely different.
>
> So let me ask this, do you need to have staging setup locally or remotely
> because in my case, we have main application on third party hosting site.
>
> John, Yeah I agree at SQL stuff  you mentioned. We are looking at that
> also. But as you mentioned, there are things which needs to be changed in CF
> code like unnecessary calls to a table or not filtering results etc.
>
> The other thing is all these applications we have use client variables
> stored in database. All login etc is done by client variables.
>
>
> 
> http://ajashadi.blogspot.com
> We cannot become what we need to be, remaining what we are.
> No matter what, find a way. Because thats what winners do.
> You can't improve what you don't measure.
> Quality is never an accident; it is always the result of high intention,
> sincere effort, intelligent direction and skillful execution; it represents
> the wise choice of many alternatives.
>
>
>   On Tue, Feb 17, 2009 at 3:24 PM, John Mason wrote:
>
>> Charlie's 411 page has the complete list of these tools. SeeFusion and
>> Fusion Reactor really help in this stuff. If the apps have been running fine
>> to some time, one of the most common things I see these days is the growth
>> and mis-management of datasources. As records keep building up in the
>> database, you have to really consider the impact of some of your code but
>> also the data it's pulling. For example, doing a "select *" on a table with
>> 1000 records doesn't take anything. Do a "select *" on a table with several
>> years of data going into millions of records could cause some serious
>> problems. Certain sql operations will place a lock on a table which could be
>> expensive and slow down the entire app. Or improper or poor table column
>> indexing could result in full table scans with your innocent looking sql
>> calls. The point here is that in many cases CF code can be optimized but
>> it's a good idea to take a close hard look at what the datasource is doing
>> internally, specially with applications that have been running for several
>> years.
>>
>> SQL Server Management studio has a Data Execution plan toggle that you can
>> use to see the process Sql Serve uses to execute a sql call. Typically, You
>> want to avoid things like full table scans or expensive table locks that
>> make everything run a lot slower. There's plenty of blogs, books and
>> articles talking about SQL Server optimization.
>>
>> John
>> ma...@fusionlink.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Ramirez, Ruben - Curtis 1000 wrote:
>>
>>>  SeeFusion has been an invaluable tool for us. I initially heard about
>>> this from John Mason at one of his talks.
>>>  http://www.seefusion.com/
>>>  Ruben
>>>
>>> 
>>> *From:* ad...@acfug.org [mailto:ad...@acfug.org] *On Behalf Of *Ajas
>>> Mohammed
>>> *Sent:* Tuesday, February 17, 2009 2:00 PM
>>> *To:* discussion@acfug.org
>>> *Subject:* [ACFUG Discuss] CF Applications hosted on third party
>>> webserver/hosting services
>>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> Before I go to google and search for *performance optimization* &
>>> *monitoring* CF Applications, and how to check what parts are killing the
>>> application, I thought I would ask here first.
>>>
>>> We have application which is doing well supporting lot of clients. We are
>>> CF 7, IIS, Windows Server 2003 shop.
>>>
>>> We have about 6 - 8 applications, all same code base, hosted on third
>>> party hosting services. I can access CF Admin etc.
>>>
>>> As the transactions are growing, we have noticed that its getting slower
>>> and slower.
>>>
>>> So any inputs as to how to track
>>>
>>> 1. what part of cf code is running slow
>>> 2. an

Re: [ACFUG Discuss] CF Applications hosted on third party webserver/hosting services

[Ajas Mohammed]

Thanks again everyone.

Teddy, we have staging which we call QA (Quality Assurance) and this is not
hosted on third party hosting service. Its here in our local network and we
allow clients to test functionality or new stuff on this QA setup. Dont know
if this could be an issue because typically you would expect staging to be
exact replica of production in terms of machine, setup etc. We have exact
setup, but processing power and number of hits etc are definitely different.

So let me ask this, do you need to have staging setup locally or remotely
because in my case, we have main application on third party hosting site.

John, Yeah I agree at SQL stuff  you mentioned. We are looking at that also.
But as you mentioned, there are things which needs to be changed in CF code
like unnecessary calls to a table or not filtering results etc.

The other thing is all these applications we have use client variables
stored in database. All login etc is done by client variables.



http://ajashadi.blogspot.com
We cannot become what we need to be, remaining what we are.
No matter what, find a way. Because thats what winners do.
You can't improve what you don't measure.
Quality is never an accident; it is always the result of high intention,
sincere effort, intelligent direction and skillful execution; it represents
the wise choice of many alternatives.


On Tue, Feb 17, 2009 at 3:24 PM, John Mason  wrote:

> Charlie's 411 page has the complete list of these tools. SeeFusion and
> Fusion Reactor really help in this stuff. If the apps have been running fine
> to some time, one of the most common things I see these days is the growth
> and mis-management of datasources. As records keep building up in the
> database, you have to really consider the impact of some of your code but
> also the data it's pulling. For example, doing a "select *" on a table with
> 1000 records doesn't take anything. Do a "select *" on a table with several
> years of data going into millions of records could cause some serious
> problems. Certain sql operations will place a lock on a table which could be
> expensive and slow down the entire app. Or improper or poor table column
> indexing could result in full table scans with your innocent looking sql
> calls. The point here is that in many cases CF code can be optimized but
> it's a good idea to take a close hard look at what the datasource is doing
> internally, specially with applications that have been running for several
> years.
>
> SQL Server Management studio has a Data Execution plan toggle that you can
> use to see the process Sql Serve uses to execute a sql call. Typically, You
> want to avoid things like full table scans or expensive table locks that
> make everything run a lot slower. There's plenty of blogs, books and
> articles talking about SQL Server optimization.
>
> John
> ma...@fusionlink.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Ramirez, Ruben - Curtis 1000 wrote:
>
>> SeeFusion has been an invaluable tool for us. I initially heard about this
>> from John Mason at one of his talks.
>>  http://www.seefusion.com/
>>  Ruben
>>
>> 
>> *From:* ad...@acfug.org [mailto:ad...@acfug.org] *On Behalf Of *Ajas
>> Mohammed
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, February 17, 2009 2:00 PM
>> *To:* discussion@acfug.org
>> *Subject:* [ACFUG Discuss] CF Applications hosted on third party
>> webserver/hosting services
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> Before I go to google and search for *performance optimization* &
>> *monitoring* CF Applications, and how to check what parts are killing the
>> application, I thought I would ask here first.
>>
>> We have application which is doing well supporting lot of clients. We are
>> CF 7, IIS, Windows Server 2003 shop.
>>
>> We have about 6 - 8 applications, all same code base, hosted on third
>> party hosting services. I can access CF Admin etc.
>>
>> As the transactions are growing, we have noticed that its getting slower
>> and slower.
>>
>> So any inputs as to how to track
>>
>> 1. what part of cf code is running slow
>> 2. any tools (if open source that would be nice) . I remember CF also has
>> something, but never had chance to look at it.
>> 3. most importantly, how do i get started monitoring load etc on the CF
>> Server.
>>
>> Thanks for your patience and apologies, if I have missed any information
>> that you need to answer my questions.
>>
>> FYI, I wanted to do this long time back, but could not because of work
>> deadlines but looks like I have to find time to sort this critical issue
>> ASAP.
>>
>>
>> 
>> http://ajashadi.blogspot.com
>> We cannot become what we need to be, remaining what we are.
>> No matter what, find a way. Because thats what winners do.
>> You can't improve what you don't measure.
>> Quality is never an accident; it is always the result of high intention,
>> sincere effort, intelligent direction and skillful execution; it represents
>> the wise choice of many alternatives.
>>
>> 

Re: [ACFUG Discuss] CF Applications hosted on third party webserver/hosting services

[John Mason]

Charlie's 411 page has the complete list of these tools. SeeFusion and 
Fusion Reactor really help in this stuff. If the apps have been running 
fine to some time, one of the most common things I see these days is the 
growth and mis-management of datasources. As records keep building up in 
the database, you have to really consider the impact of some of your 
code but also the data it's pulling. For example, doing a "select *" on 
a table with 1000 records doesn't take anything. Do a "select *" on a 
table with several years of data going into millions of records could 
cause some serious problems. Certain sql operations will place a lock on 
a table which could be expensive and slow down the entire app. Or 
improper or poor table column indexing could result in full table scans 
with your innocent looking sql calls. The point here is that in many 
cases CF code can be optimized but it's a good idea to take a close hard 
look at what the datasource is doing internally, specially with 
applications that have been running for several years.


SQL Server Management studio has a Data Execution plan toggle that you 
can use to see the process Sql Serve uses to execute a sql call. 
Typically, You want to avoid things like full table scans or expensive 
table locks that make everything run a lot slower. There's plenty of 
blogs, books and articles talking about SQL Server optimization.


John
ma...@fusionlink.com





Ramirez, Ruben - Curtis 1000 wrote:
SeeFusion has been an invaluable tool for us. I initially heard about 
this from John Mason at one of his talks.
 
http://www.seefusion.com/
 
Ruben



*From:* ad...@acfug.org [mailto:ad...@acfug.org] *On Behalf Of *Ajas 
Mohammed

*Sent:* Tuesday, February 17, 2009 2:00 PM
*To:* discussion@acfug.org
*Subject:* [ACFUG Discuss] CF Applications hosted on third party 
webserver/hosting services


Hi,

Before I go to google and search for *performance optimization* & 
*monitoring* CF Applications, and how to check what parts are killing 
the application, I thought I would ask here first.


We have application which is doing well supporting lot of clients. We 
are CF 7, IIS, Windows Server 2003 shop.


We have about 6 - 8 applications, all same code base, hosted on third 
party hosting services. I can access CF Admin etc.


As the transactions are growing, we have noticed that its getting 
slower and slower.


So any inputs as to how to track

1. what part of cf code is running slow
2. any tools (if open source that would be nice) . I remember CF also 
has something, but never had chance to look at it.
3. most importantly, how do i get started monitoring load etc on the 
CF Server.


Thanks for your patience and apologies, if I have missed any 
information that you need to answer my questions.


FYI, I wanted to do this long time back, but could not because of work 
deadlines but looks like I have to find time to sort this critical 
issue ASAP.




http://ajashadi.blogspot.com
We cannot become what we need to be, remaining what we are.
No matter what, find a way. Because thats what winners do.
You can't improve what you don't measure.
Quality is never an accident; it is always the result of high 
intention, sincere effort, intelligent direction and skillful 
execution; it represents the wise choice of many alternatives.


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Re: [ACFUG Discuss] CF Applications hosted on third party webserver/hosting services

[Teddy R. Payne]

Ajas,
As a general guiding point, you mentioned slow running pages.  Within
ColdFusion 7 Administrator, there is a section of the administrator that
deals with Logging.  Part of the logging has an option to track "slow
running pages".  The information is saved to a log file.

I cannot remember the options path to get to that checkbox, but in
ColdFusion 8 you click "Logging Settings" then click "Log slow running pages
that take longer than ..".

The information is saved into a log file that you can view in notepad or an
eclipse log file plug-in for ease of use parsing.

Be careful about turning on various options on server monitoring tools for
production systems as this can negatively impact your system's performance.


Do you have a staging server where you can perform test cases?

Teddy R. Payne, ACCFD
Google Talk - teddyrpa...@gmail.com




On Tue, Feb 17, 2009 at 2:11 PM, Ramirez, Ruben - Curtis 1000 <
rrami...@curtis1000.com> wrote:

>  SeeFusion has been an invaluable tool for us. I initially heard about
> this from John Mason at one of his talks.
>
> http://www.seefusion.com/
>
> Ruben
>
>  --
> *From:* ad...@acfug.org [mailto:ad...@acfug.org] *On Behalf Of *Ajas
> Mohammed
> *Sent:* Tuesday, February 17, 2009 2:00 PM
> *To:* discussion@acfug.org
> *Subject:* [ACFUG Discuss] CF Applications hosted on third party
> webserver/hosting services
>
> Hi,
>
> Before I go to google and search for *performance optimization* &
> *monitoring* CF Applications, and how to check what parts are killing the
> application, I thought I would ask here first.
>
> We have application which is doing well supporting lot of clients. We are
> CF 7, IIS, Windows Server 2003 shop.
>
> We have about 6 - 8 applications, all same code base, hosted on third party
> hosting services. I can access CF Admin etc.
>
> As the transactions are growing, we have noticed that its getting slower
> and slower.
>
> So any inputs as to how to track
>
> 1. what part of cf code is running slow
> 2. any tools (if open source that would be nice) . I remember CF also has
> something, but never had chance to look at it.
> 3. most importantly, how do i get started monitoring load etc on the CF
> Server.
>
> Thanks for your patience and apologies, if I have missed any information
> that you need to answer my questions.
>
> FYI, I wanted to do this long time back, but could not because of work
> deadlines but looks like I have to find time to sort this critical issue
> ASAP.
>
>
> 
> http://ajashadi.blogspot.com
> We cannot become what we need to be, remaining what we are.
> No matter what, find a way. Because thats what winners do.
> You can't improve what you don't measure.
> Quality is never an accident; it is always the result of high intention,
> sincere effort, intelligent direction and skillful execution; it represents
> the wise choice of many alternatives.
>
> -
> To unsubscribe from this list, manage your profile @
> http://www.acfug.org?fa=login.edituserform
>
> For more info, see http://www.acfug.org/mailinglists
> Archive @ http://www.mail-archive.com/discussion%40acfug.org/
> List hosted by FusionLink 
> -
>

RE: [ACFUG Discuss] CF Applications hosted on third party webserver/hosting services

[axunderwood]

That's awesome - I wonder if someone can hijack your session?!  Charlie, how 
secure is your site?!  =)


From: ad...@acfug.org [mailto:ad...@acfug.org] On Behalf Of shawn gorrell
Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 2:29 PM
To: discussion@acfug.org
Subject: Re: [ACFUG Discuss] CF Applications hosted on third party 
webserver/hosting services

For anyone that needs tool advice, I'd recommend bookmarking this link to 
Charlie's site.

http://www.carehart.org/cf411/?CFID=155996&CFTOKEN=14df06d00161ffbb-85B4F706-90BC-5757-5CD21E2BC185306B




From: "Ramirez, Ruben - Curtis 1000" 
To: discussion@acfug.org
Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 2:11:29 PM
Subject: RE: [ACFUG Discuss] CF Applications hosted on third party 
webserver/hosting services

SeeFusion has been an invaluable tool for us. I initially heard about this from 
John Mason at one of his talks.

http://www.seefusion.com/

Ruben


From: ad...@acfug.org [mailto:ad...@acfug.org] On Behalf Of Ajas Mohammed
Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 2:00 PM
To: discussion@acfug.org
Subject: [ACFUG Discuss] CF Applications hosted on third party 
webserver/hosting services

Hi,

Before I go to google and search for *performance optimization* & *monitoring* 
CF Applications, and how to check what parts are killing the application, I 
thought I would ask here first.

We have application which is doing well supporting lot of clients. We are CF 7, 
IIS, Windows Server 2003 shop.

We have about 6 - 8 applications, all same code base, hosted on third party 
hosting services. I can access CF Admin etc.

As the transactions are growing, we have noticed that its getting slower and 
slower.

So any inputs as to how to track

1. what part of cf code is running slow
2. any tools (if open source that would be nice) . I remember CF also has 
something, but never had chance to look at it.
3. most importantly, how do i get started monitoring load etc on the CF Server.

Thanks for your patience and apologies, if I have missed any information that 
you need to answer my questions.

FYI, I wanted to do this long time back, but could not because of work 
deadlines but looks like I have to find time to sort this critical issue ASAP.



http://ajashadi.blogspot.com
We cannot become what we need to be, remaining what we are.
No matter what, find a way. Because thats what winners do.
You can't improve what you don't measure.
Quality is never an accident; it is always the result of high intention, 
sincere effort, intelligent direction and skillful execution; it represents the 
wise choice of many alternatives.

-
To unsubscribe from this list, manage your profile @
http://www.acfug.org?fa=login.edituserform

For more info, see http://www.acfug.org/mailinglists
Archive @ http://www.mail-archive.com/discussion%40acfug.org/
List hosted by FusionLink<http://www.fusionlink.com>
-

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-



-

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List hosted by http://www.fusionlink.com

-

Re: [ACFUG Discuss] CF Applications hosted on third party webserver/hosting services

[shawn gorrell]

For anyone that needs tool advice, I'd recommend bookmarking this link to 
Charlie's site. 

http://www.carehart.org/cf411/?CFID=155996&CFTOKEN=14df06d00161ffbb-85B4F706-90BC-5757-5CD21E2BC185306B







From: "Ramirez, Ruben - Curtis 1000" 
To: discussion@acfug.org
Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 2:11:29 PM
Subject: RE: [ACFUG Discuss] CF Applications hosted on third party 
webserver/hosting services


SeeFusion has been an invaluable tool for us. I initially 
heard about this from John Mason at one of his talks.
 
http://www.seefusion.com/
 
Ruben



 From: ad...@acfug.org [mailto:ad...@acfug.org] On Behalf Of Ajas Mohammed
Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 
2:00 PM
To: discussion@acfug.org
Subject: [ACFUG Discuss] CF 
Applications hosted on third party webserver/hosting 
services

Hi,

Before I go to google and search for *performance 
optimization* & *monitoring* CF Applications, and how to check what parts 
are killing the application, I thought I would ask here first.

We have 
application which is doing well supporting lot of clients. We are CF 7, IIS, 
Windows Server 2003 shop.

We have about 6 - 8 applications, all same code 
base, hosted on third party hosting services. I can access CF Admin 
etc.

As the transactions are growing, we have noticed that its getting 
slower and slower.

So any inputs as to how to track 

1. what part 
of cf code is running slow 
2. any tools (if open source that would be nice) 
. I remember CF also has something, but never had chance to look at it.
3. 
most importantly, how do i get started monitoring load etc on the CF 
Server.

Thanks for your patience and apologies, if I have missed any 
information that you need to answer my questions.

FYI, I wanted to do 
this long time back, but could not because of work deadlines but looks like I 
have to find time to sort this critical issue ASAP.



http://ajashadi.blogspot.com
We 
cannot become what we need to be, remaining what we are.
No matter what, find 
a way. Because thats what winners do.
You can't improve what you don't 
measure.
Quality is never an accident; it is always the result of high 
intention, sincere effort, intelligent direction and skillful execution; it 
represents the wise choice of many alternatives.

- 
To unsubscribe from this list, manage your profile @ 
http://www.acfug.org?fa=login.edituserform 

For more info, see http://www.acfug.org/mailinglists 
Archive @ http://www.mail-archive.com/discussion%40acfug.org/ 
List hosted by FusionLink 
- 


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To unsubscribe from this list, manage your profile @ 
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For more info, see http://www.acfug.org/mailinglists
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List hosted by http://www.fusionlink.com
-

Re: [ACFUG Discuss] CF Applications hosted on third party webserver/hosting services

[Ajas Mohammed]

Thanks guys,

Teddy, Yes I have both the volumes i.e. WACK and Advanced Book. I will look
into that.

Ruben, I will look at www.seefusion.com also.

Thanks,


http://ajashadi.blogspot.com
We cannot become what we need to be, remaining what we are.
No matter what, find a way. Because thats what winners do.
You can't improve what you don't measure.
Quality is never an accident; it is always the result of high intention,
sincere effort, intelligent direction and skillful execution; it represents
the wise choice of many alternatives.


On Tue, Feb 17, 2009 at 2:12 PM, Teddy R. Payne wrote:

> Ajas,
> Do you have a copy of the ColdFusion Web Application Construction Kit by
> Ben Forta?  Each advanced version of the book has a couple of chapters that
> serve as a starting point for your research into this topic.
>
> Teddy R. Payne, ACCFD
> Google Talk - teddyrpa...@gmail.com
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Feb 17, 2009 at 1:59 PM, Ajas Mohammed  wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> Before I go to google and search for *performance optimization* &
>> *monitoring* CF Applications, and how to check what parts are killing the
>> application, I thought I would ask here first.
>>
>> We have application which is doing well supporting lot of clients. We are
>> CF 7, IIS, Windows Server 2003 shop.
>>
>> We have about 6 - 8 applications, all same code base, hosted on third
>> party hosting services. I can access CF Admin etc.
>>
>> As the transactions are growing, we have noticed that its getting slower
>> and slower.
>>
>> So any inputs as to how to track
>>
>> 1. what part of cf code is running slow
>> 2. any tools (if open source that would be nice) . I remember CF also has
>> something, but never had chance to look at it.
>> 3. most importantly, how do i get started monitoring load etc on the CF
>> Server.
>>
>> Thanks for your patience and apologies, if I have missed any information
>> that you need to answer my questions.
>>
>> FYI, I wanted to do this long time back, but could not because of work
>> deadlines but looks like I have to find time to sort this critical issue
>> ASAP.
>>
>>
>> 
>> http://ajashadi.blogspot.com
>> We cannot become what we need to be, remaining what we are.
>> No matter what, find a way. Because thats what winners do.
>> You can't improve what you don't measure.
>> Quality is never an accident; it is always the result of high intention,
>> sincere effort, intelligent direction and skillful execution; it represents
>> the wise choice of many alternatives.
>>
>
>

RE: [ACFUG Discuss] CF Applications hosted on third party webserver/hosting services

[Troy Jones]

Hi Ajas,

 

In the past we have had similar issues concerning our code. Our problem
lied in the SESSION scope and the size of if. As the number of users
grew, so did the allocated memory. At a certain point, it would reach
it's heap size limit and become unresponsive. Our solution was to rework
our framework and eliminate the use of the scope as much as possible. 

 

 I am not sure what tools are best for diagnosing this problem with CF7
(we are using CF8 with server monitoring) but that is the option that
stands out to me based on what you have said. I am sure some of the
guys/ladies know of some effective third party tools to assist you.

 

Not much but I hope it helps.

 

Troy Jones

Dynapp Support Team

678-528-2952

 

 

From: ad...@acfug.org [mailto:ad...@acfug.org] On Behalf Of Ajas
Mohammed
Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 2:00 PM
To: discussion@acfug.org
Subject: [ACFUG Discuss] CF Applications hosted on third party
webserver/hosting services

 

Hi,

Before I go to google and search for *performance optimization* &
*monitoring* CF Applications, and how to check what parts are killing
the application, I thought I would ask here first.

We have application which is doing well supporting lot of clients. We
are CF 7, IIS, Windows Server 2003 shop.

We have about 6 - 8 applications, all same code base, hosted on third
party hosting services. I can access CF Admin etc.

As the transactions are growing, we have noticed that its getting slower
and slower.

So any inputs as to how to track 

1. what part of cf code is running slow 
2. any tools (if open source that would be nice) . I remember CF also
has something, but never had chance to look at it.
3. most importantly, how do i get started monitoring load etc on the CF
Server.

Thanks for your patience and apologies, if I have missed any information
that you need to answer my questions.

FYI, I wanted to do this long time back, but could not because of work
deadlines but looks like I have to find time to sort this critical issue
ASAP.



http://ajashadi.blogspot.com
We cannot become what we need to be, remaining what we are.
No matter what, find a way. Because thats what winners do.
You can't improve what you don't measure.
Quality is never an accident; it is always the result of high intention,
sincere effort, intelligent direction and skillful execution; it
represents the wise choice of many alternatives.




-

To unsubscribe from this list, manage your profile @ 

http://www.acfug.org?fa=login.edituserform



For more info, see http://www.acfug.org/mailinglists

Archive @ http://www.mail-archive.com/discussion%40acfug.org/

List hosted by http://www.fusionlink.com

-

RE: [ACFUG Discuss] CF Applications hosted on third party webserver/hosting services

[Ramirez, Ruben - Curtis 1000]

SeeFusion has been an invaluable tool for us. I initially heard about
this from John Mason at one of his talks.
 
http://www.seefusion.com/
 
Ruben



From: ad...@acfug.org [mailto:ad...@acfug.org] On Behalf Of Ajas
Mohammed
Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 2:00 PM
To: discussion@acfug.org
Subject: [ACFUG Discuss] CF Applications hosted on third party
webserver/hosting services


Hi,

Before I go to google and search for *performance optimization* &
*monitoring* CF Applications, and how to check what parts are killing
the application, I thought I would ask here first.

We have application which is doing well supporting lot of clients. We
are CF 7, IIS, Windows Server 2003 shop.

We have about 6 - 8 applications, all same code base, hosted on third
party hosting services. I can access CF Admin etc.

As the transactions are growing, we have noticed that its getting slower
and slower.

So any inputs as to how to track 

1. what part of cf code is running slow 
2. any tools (if open source that would be nice) . I remember CF also
has something, but never had chance to look at it.
3. most importantly, how do i get started monitoring load etc on the CF
Server.

Thanks for your patience and apologies, if I have missed any information
that you need to answer my questions.

FYI, I wanted to do this long time back, but could not because of work
deadlines but looks like I have to find time to sort this critical issue
ASAP.



http://ajashadi.blogspot.com
We cannot become what we need to be, remaining what we are.
No matter what, find a way. Because thats what winners do.
You can't improve what you don't measure.
Quality is never an accident; it is always the result of high intention,
sincere effort, intelligent direction and skillful execution; it
represents the wise choice of many alternatives.




-

To unsubscribe from this list, manage your profile @ 

http://www.acfug.org?fa=login.edituserform



For more info, see http://www.acfug.org/mailinglists

Archive @ http://www.mail-archive.com/discussion%40acfug.org/

List hosted by http://www.fusionlink.com

-

Re: [ACFUG Discuss] CF Applications hosted on third party webserver/hosting services

[Teddy R. Payne]

Ajas,
Do you have a copy of the ColdFusion Web Application Construction Kit by Ben
Forta?  Each advanced version of the book has a couple of chapters that
serve as a starting point for your research into this topic.

Teddy R. Payne, ACCFD
Google Talk - teddyrpa...@gmail.com



On Tue, Feb 17, 2009 at 1:59 PM, Ajas Mohammed  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> Before I go to google and search for *performance optimization* &
> *monitoring* CF Applications, and how to check what parts are killing the
> application, I thought I would ask here first.
>
> We have application which is doing well supporting lot of clients. We are
> CF 7, IIS, Windows Server 2003 shop.
>
> We have about 6 - 8 applications, all same code base, hosted on third party
> hosting services. I can access CF Admin etc.
>
> As the transactions are growing, we have noticed that its getting slower
> and slower.
>
> So any inputs as to how to track
>
> 1. what part of cf code is running slow
> 2. any tools (if open source that would be nice) . I remember CF also has
> something, but never had chance to look at it.
> 3. most importantly, how do i get started monitoring load etc on the CF
> Server.
>
> Thanks for your patience and apologies, if I have missed any information
> that you need to answer my questions.
>
> FYI, I wanted to do this long time back, but could not because of work
> deadlines but looks like I have to find time to sort this critical issue
> ASAP.
>
>
> 
> http://ajashadi.blogspot.com
> We cannot become what we need to be, remaining what we are.
> No matter what, find a way. Because thats what winners do.
> You can't improve what you don't measure.
> Quality is never an accident; it is always the result of high intention,
> sincere effort, intelligent direction and skillful execution; it represents
> the wise choice of many alternatives.
>