Re: [Diversity-talk] Etiquette Guidelines bad | Re: Code of conduct

[Mikel Maron]

Yes. And in case you haven’t seen, the board has asked the lccwg to convene and 
come up with recommendations — including Code of Conduct and moderation 
processes — for the OSMF Board to adopt. 
https://blog.openstreetmap.org/2020/12/11/message-from-osmf-board-chair-on-mailing-list-behavior/
 

Mikel

On Sunday, December 13, 2020, 9:16 PM, arnalie faye vicario 
 wrote:

The current Etiquette Guidelines is not enough. By the title, it is just a 
"guideline"  - a suggestion or a piece of advice. 
We really need a CODE of Conduct that is enforceable with a committed moderator 
or working group.
 As a non-native English speaker, I have to look up the definitions in the 
dictionary to confirm.

=Arnalie
On Thu, Dec 10, 2020 at 1:06 AM Mikel Maron  wrote:

The etiquette guidelines have issues, but I’m not sure that’s one. If there was 
moderation and enforcement in place, than we wouldn’t need to call out 
publicly. Moderator could step in to do that. Prefer that way of handling it.

Mikel

On Wednesday, December 9, 2020, 11:33 AM, Rory McCann  
wrote:

Have any of yous read the Ettiquette Guidelines¹? They're rubbish.

Frederik broke them by publically calling Mike Migurski out, and for not 
assuming he was acting in good faith. *But* if anyone publishes something 
saying “What Frederik did was wrong” (like I (& others) did), then they are 
also breaking the Ettiquette Guidelines! That's a horrible outcome!

¹ https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Etiquette

On Wed, 9 Dec 2020, at 16:57, Maggie Cawley wrote:
> I am so happy to see this thread. I believe it will take all of us 
> coming together and speaking with a unified voice to bring upon the 
> change we need at the global level. As Clifford mentioned, a few of us 
> from the LCCWG met on Monday to start talking about next steps. It's 
> not about one statement, but rather that discussions and comments like 
> those from this past week affect us all as we work to build diverse 
> communities around the world.  
> 
> Rob, Clifford and I discussed the need for a CoC, but when Rob pointed 
> out the Etiquette Guidelines exist and are pretty widely accepted it 
> seems like a logical place to start. It would also enable us to move a 
> bit more quickly since the document exists and won't need many rounds 
> of community feedback. What is missing is the process for moderation 
> and a committee available to moderate any complaints on breaches of 
> etiquette. It would be helpful to review and suggest edits to the 
> existing guidelines during this process as well. For the US CoC it took 
> about 8 months to finalize the CoC and moderation process, and find 
> volunteers for a committee.
> 
> I look forward to growing the conversation. Thanks Heather for starting 
> this thread here and to all of you who are stepping forward!
> 
> Maggie Cawley
> 
> 
> On Tue, 8 Dec 2020 at 21:30, arnalie faye vicario  
> wrote:
> > Hello/*Kumusta*,
> > 
> > *Salamat*/Thanks everyone for continuing the conversations and taking this 
> > seriously.
> > 
> > It is good to speak up and comment about it in our individual capacities, 
> > but a collective can build a fire  (charcoal comparison). 
> > 
> > This is what we did in OSM PH's Call to Correct Narratives About Geospatial 
> > Work in the Philippines (re: Amazon-HOT video).  
> > 
> > 
> > Also, I would like to quote and highlight what David Garcia 
> > (@mapmakerdavid) has shared in Twitter:
> >> It is not just the maps that matters. Who *makes* the maps matters. Who 
> >> *tells* the stories of the mapping matters, too. Who *LEADS* the mapping 
> >> and storytelling also matters. Who *gets powerful* due to the mapping and 
> >> storytelling matters most.
> > 
> > Thank you Geochicas, Celine @mapeadora, Heather, Rebecca, Miriam 
> > @mapanauta, Nelson Minar, LCCWG Group, OSMF past/present Board members 
> > (Kate, Rory and Mikel), HOT Community WG and everyone who expressed support 
> > and has spoken up (apologies if I missed your name). It is really 
> > encouraging and inspiring. Please add your thoughts in the document: 
> > https://docs.google.com/document/d/130JCTX9ve4H4ORXznmIVTpXiN3TX8nRGA8ayuTZ9ECI/edit
> > 
> > In case you missed it (like me), here is what Celine sent in the OSM talk 
> > mailing list: 
> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2020-December/085727.html.
> > 
> > Let us keep the fire burning!
> > 
> > =Arnalie
> > 
> > On Wed, Dec 9, 2020 at 5:54 AM Clifford Snow  
> > wrote:
> >> I should mention that what we, Maggie Crawely, Rob Nickerson and myself, 
> >> want to accomplish is to create a committee to moderate the existing 
> >> etiquette guidelines and later update the guidelines to reflect best 
> >> practices of Code of Conducts.We planned to form a sub committee under the 
> >> LCCWG since CoC is critical to Local Chapters. We did a survey of Local 
> >> Chapters and those 

Re: [Diversity-talk] Etiquette Guidelines bad | Re: Code of conduct

[arnalie faye vicario]

The current Etiquette Guidelines is not enough. By the title, it is just a
"guideline"  - a suggestion or a piece of advice.

We really need a *CODE* of Conduct that is enforceable with a committed
moderator or working group.

 As a non-native English speaker, I have to look up the definitions in the
dictionary to confirm.


=Arnalie

On Thu, Dec 10, 2020 at 1:06 AM Mikel Maron  wrote:

> The etiquette guidelines have issues, but I’m not sure that’s one. If
> there was moderation and enforcement in place, than we wouldn’t need to
> call out publicly. Moderator could step in to do that. Prefer that way of
> handling it.
>
> Mikel
>
> On Wednesday, December 9, 2020, 11:33 AM, Rory McCann <
> r...@technomancy.org> wrote:
>
> Have any of yous read the Ettiquette Guidelines¹? They're rubbish.
>
> Frederik broke them by publically calling Mike Migurski out, and for not
> assuming he was acting in good faith. *But* if anyone publishes something
> saying “What Frederik did was wrong” (like I (& others) did), then they are
> also breaking the Ettiquette Guidelines! That's a horrible outcome!
>
> ¹ https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Etiquette
>
> On Wed, 9 Dec 2020, at 16:57, Maggie Cawley wrote:
> > I am so happy to see this thread. I believe it will take all of us
> > coming together and speaking with a unified voice to bring upon the
> > change we need at the global level. As Clifford mentioned, a few of us
> > from the LCCWG met on Monday to start talking about next steps. It's
> > not about one statement, but rather that discussions and comments like
> > those from this past week affect us all as we work to build diverse
> > communities around the world.
> >
> > Rob, Clifford and I discussed the need for a CoC, but when Rob pointed
> > out the Etiquette Guidelines exist and are pretty widely accepted it
> > seems like a logical place to start. It would also enable us to move a
> > bit more quickly since the document exists and won't need many rounds
> > of community feedback. What is missing is the process for moderation
> > and a committee available to moderate any complaints on breaches of
> > etiquette. It would be helpful to review and suggest edits to the
> > existing guidelines during this process as well. For the US CoC it took
> > about 8 months to finalize the CoC and moderation process, and find
> > volunteers for a committee.
> >
> > I look forward to growing the conversation. Thanks Heather for starting
> > this thread here and to all of you who are stepping forward!
> >
> > Maggie Cawley
> >
> >
> > On Tue, 8 Dec 2020 at 21:30, arnalie faye vicario 
> wrote:
> > > Hello/*Kumusta*,
> > >
> > > *Salamat*/Thanks everyone for continuing the conversations and taking
> this seriously.
> > >
> > > It is good to speak up and comment about it in our individual
> capacities, but a collective can build a fire  (charcoal comparison).
> > >
> > > This is what we did in OSM PH's Call to Correct Narratives About
> Geospatial Work in the Philippines (re: Amazon-HOT video).  <
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/images/a/aa/A_Call_to_Correct_Narratives_about_Geospatial_Work.pdf
> >
> > >
> > > Also, I would like to quote and highlight what David Garcia
> (@mapmakerdavid) has shared in Twitter:
> > >> It is not just the maps that matters. Who *makes* the maps matters.
> Who *tells* the stories of the mapping matters, too. Who *LEADS* the
> mapping and storytelling also matters. Who *gets powerful* due to the
> mapping and storytelling matters most.
> > >
> > > Thank you Geochicas, Celine @mapeadora, Heather, Rebecca, Miriam
> @mapanauta, Nelson Minar, LCCWG Group, OSMF past/present Board members
> (Kate, Rory and Mikel), HOT Community WG and everyone who expressed support
> and has spoken up (apologies if I missed your name). It is really
> encouraging and inspiring. Please add your thoughts in the document:
> https://docs.google.com/document/d/130JCTX9ve4H4ORXznmIVTpXiN3TX8nRGA8ayuTZ9ECI/edit
> > >
> > > In case you missed it (like me), here is what Celine sent in the OSM
> talk mailing list:
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2020-December/085727.html.
> > >
> > > Let us keep the fire burning!
> > >
> > > =Arnalie
> > >
> > > On Wed, Dec 9, 2020 at 5:54 AM Clifford Snow 
> wrote:
> > >> I should mention that what we, Maggie Crawely, Rob Nickerson and
> myself, want to accomplish is to create a committee to moderate the
> existing etiquette guidelines and later update the guidelines to reflect
> best practices of Code of Conducts.We planned to form a sub committee under
> the LCCWG since CoC is critical to Local Chapters. We did a survey of Local
> Chapters and those considering forming one. The results showed that 5 LC
> already had a CoC, 6 did not and 6 were consider or in a discussion to have
> a CoC.
> > >>
> > >> Clifford
> > >>
> > >> On Tue, Dec 8, 2020 at 1:36 PM Heather Leson 
> wrote:
> > >>> Always
> > >>> Heather Leson
> > >>> heatherle...@gmail.com
> > >>> Twitter/skype: HeatherLeson
> 

Re: [Diversity-talk] Etiquette Guidelines bad | Re: Code of conduct

[Jo Walsh]

I continue to stand by the statement that a community CoC is there to protect 
under-represented people, not to enable privileged folks to tone police one 
other. In reverting edits and applying temporary blocks, one must look at 
intention not behaviour. 

Also everyone's on edge now for reasons that go far beyond OSM, fearful for our 
jobs, worried for our friends and families, deprived of our daily distractions 
and outlets, in the depths of midwinter. As appeasing as it may seem, give this 
time. Don't let go of the structural momentum for culture change, but do give 
one another time right now.


zx

-- 
  Jo Walsh
  metaz...@fastmail.net

On Wed, Dec 9, 2020, at 4:33 PM, Rory McCann wrote:
> Have any of yous read the Ettiquette Guidelines¹? They're rubbish.
> 
> Frederik broke them by publically calling Mike Migurski out, and for 
> not assuming he was acting in good faith. *But* if anyone publishes 
> something saying “What Frederik did was wrong” (like I (& others) did), 
> then they are also breaking the Ettiquette Guidelines! That's a 
> horrible outcome!
> 
> ¹ https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Etiquette
> 
> On Wed, 9 Dec 2020, at 16:57, Maggie Cawley wrote:
> > I am so happy to see this thread. I believe it will take all of us 
> > coming together and speaking with a unified voice to bring upon the 
> > change we need at the global level. As Clifford mentioned, a few of us 
> > from the LCCWG met on Monday to start talking about next steps. It's 
> > not about one statement, but rather that discussions and comments like 
> > those from this past week affect us all as we work to build diverse 
> > communities around the world.   
> > 
> > Rob, Clifford and I discussed the need for a CoC, but when Rob pointed 
> > out the Etiquette Guidelines exist and are pretty widely accepted it 
> > seems like a logical place to start. It would also enable us to move a 
> > bit more quickly since the document exists and won't need many rounds 
> > of community feedback. What is missing is the process for moderation 
> > and a committee available to moderate any complaints on breaches of 
> > etiquette. It would be helpful to review and suggest edits to the 
> > existing guidelines during this process as well. For the US CoC it took 
> > about 8 months to finalize the CoC and moderation process, and find 
> > volunteers for a committee.
> > 
> > I look forward to growing the conversation. Thanks Heather for starting 
> > this thread here and to all of you who are stepping forward!
> > 
> > Maggie Cawley
> > 
> > 
> > On Tue, 8 Dec 2020 at 21:30, arnalie faye vicario  
> > wrote:
> > > Hello/*Kumusta*,
> > > 
> > > *Salamat*/Thanks everyone for continuing the conversations and taking 
> > > this seriously.
> > > 
> > > It is good to speak up and comment about it in our individual capacities, 
> > > but a collective can build a fire  (charcoal comparison). 
> > > 
> > > This is what we did in OSM PH's Call to Correct Narratives About 
> > > Geospatial Work in the Philippines (re: Amazon-HOT video).  
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Also, I would like to quote and highlight what David Garcia 
> > > (@mapmakerdavid) has shared in Twitter:
> > >> It is not just the maps that matters. Who *makes* the maps matters. Who 
> > >> *tells* the stories of the mapping matters, too. Who *LEADS* the mapping 
> > >> and storytelling also matters. Who *gets powerful* due to the mapping 
> > >> and storytelling matters most.
> > > 
> > > Thank you Geochicas, Celine @mapeadora, Heather, Rebecca, Miriam 
> > > @mapanauta, Nelson Minar, LCCWG Group, OSMF past/present Board members 
> > > (Kate, Rory and Mikel), HOT Community WG and everyone who expressed 
> > > support and has spoken up (apologies if I missed your name). It is really 
> > > encouraging and inspiring. Please add your thoughts in the document: 
> > > https://docs.google.com/document/d/130JCTX9ve4H4ORXznmIVTpXiN3TX8nRGA8ayuTZ9ECI/edit
> > > 
> > > In case you missed it (like me), here is what Celine sent in the OSM talk 
> > > mailing list: 
> > > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2020-December/085727.html.
> > > 
> > > Let us keep the fire burning!
> > > 
> > > =Arnalie
> > > 
> > > On Wed, Dec 9, 2020 at 5:54 AM Clifford Snow  
> > > wrote:
> > >> I should mention that what we, Maggie Crawely, Rob Nickerson and myself, 
> > >> want to accomplish is to create a committee to moderate the existing 
> > >> etiquette guidelines and later update the guidelines to reflect best 
> > >> practices of Code of Conducts.We planned to form a sub committee under 
> > >> the LCCWG since CoC is critical to Local Chapters. We did a survey of 
> > >> Local Chapters and those considering forming one. The results showed 
> > >> that 5 LC already had a CoC, 6 did not and 6 were consider or in a 
> > >> discussion to have a CoC.
> > >> 
> > >> Clifford
> > >> 
> > >> On Tue, Dec 8, 

Re: [Diversity-talk] Etiquette Guidelines bad | Re: Code of conduct

[Mikel Maron]

The etiquette guidelines have issues, but I’m not sure that’s one. If there was 
moderation and enforcement in place, than we wouldn’t need to call out 
publicly. Moderator could step in to do that. Prefer that way of handling it.

Mikel

On Wednesday, December 9, 2020, 11:33 AM, Rory McCann  
wrote:

Have any of yous read the Ettiquette Guidelines¹? They're rubbish.

Frederik broke them by publically calling Mike Migurski out, and for not 
assuming he was acting in good faith. *But* if anyone publishes something 
saying “What Frederik did was wrong” (like I (& others) did), then they are 
also breaking the Ettiquette Guidelines! That's a horrible outcome!

¹ https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Etiquette

On Wed, 9 Dec 2020, at 16:57, Maggie Cawley wrote:
> I am so happy to see this thread. I believe it will take all of us 
> coming together and speaking with a unified voice to bring upon the 
> change we need at the global level. As Clifford mentioned, a few of us 
> from the LCCWG met on Monday to start talking about next steps. It's 
> not about one statement, but rather that discussions and comments like 
> those from this past week affect us all as we work to build diverse 
> communities around the world.  
> 
> Rob, Clifford and I discussed the need for a CoC, but when Rob pointed 
> out the Etiquette Guidelines exist and are pretty widely accepted it 
> seems like a logical place to start. It would also enable us to move a 
> bit more quickly since the document exists and won't need many rounds 
> of community feedback. What is missing is the process for moderation 
> and a committee available to moderate any complaints on breaches of 
> etiquette. It would be helpful to review and suggest edits to the 
> existing guidelines during this process as well. For the US CoC it took 
> about 8 months to finalize the CoC and moderation process, and find 
> volunteers for a committee.
> 
> I look forward to growing the conversation. Thanks Heather for starting 
> this thread here and to all of you who are stepping forward!
> 
> Maggie Cawley
> 
> 
> On Tue, 8 Dec 2020 at 21:30, arnalie faye vicario  
> wrote:
> > Hello/*Kumusta*,
> > 
> > *Salamat*/Thanks everyone for continuing the conversations and taking this 
> > seriously.
> > 
> > It is good to speak up and comment about it in our individual capacities, 
> > but a collective can build a fire  (charcoal comparison). 
> > 
> > This is what we did in OSM PH's Call to Correct Narratives About Geospatial 
> > Work in the Philippines (re: Amazon-HOT video).  
> > 
> > 
> > Also, I would like to quote and highlight what David Garcia 
> > (@mapmakerdavid) has shared in Twitter:
> >> It is not just the maps that matters. Who *makes* the maps matters. Who 
> >> *tells* the stories of the mapping matters, too. Who *LEADS* the mapping 
> >> and storytelling also matters. Who *gets powerful* due to the mapping and 
> >> storytelling matters most.
> > 
> > Thank you Geochicas, Celine @mapeadora, Heather, Rebecca, Miriam 
> > @mapanauta, Nelson Minar, LCCWG Group, OSMF past/present Board members 
> > (Kate, Rory and Mikel), HOT Community WG and everyone who expressed support 
> > and has spoken up (apologies if I missed your name). It is really 
> > encouraging and inspiring. Please add your thoughts in the document: 
> > https://docs.google.com/document/d/130JCTX9ve4H4ORXznmIVTpXiN3TX8nRGA8ayuTZ9ECI/edit
> > 
> > In case you missed it (like me), here is what Celine sent in the OSM talk 
> > mailing list: 
> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2020-December/085727.html.
> > 
> > Let us keep the fire burning!
> > 
> > =Arnalie
> > 
> > On Wed, Dec 9, 2020 at 5:54 AM Clifford Snow  
> > wrote:
> >> I should mention that what we, Maggie Crawely, Rob Nickerson and myself, 
> >> want to accomplish is to create a committee to moderate the existing 
> >> etiquette guidelines and later update the guidelines to reflect best 
> >> practices of Code of Conducts.We planned to form a sub committee under the 
> >> LCCWG since CoC is critical to Local Chapters. We did a survey of Local 
> >> Chapters and those considering forming one. The results showed that 5 LC 
> >> already had a CoC, 6 did not and 6 were consider or in a discussion to 
> >> have a CoC.
> >> 
> >> Clifford
> >> 
> >> On Tue, Dec 8, 2020 at 1:36 PM Heather Leson  
> >> wrote:
> >>> Always
> >>> Heather Leson
> >>> heatherle...@gmail.com
> >>> Twitter/skype: HeatherLeson 
> >>> Blog: textontechs.com
> >>> 
> >>> 
> >>> On Tue, Dec 8, 2020 at 10:31 PM Clifford Snow  
> >>> wrote:
>  Heather - A small group of the LCCWG met via BigBlueButton yesterday to 
>  start a similar initiative. I was going to send an invite to the rest of 
>  the LCCWG as well as to this mailing list. Since you have the ball 
>  rolling, can you include lo...@osmfoundation.org in the mailing.
>  
>  On 

[Diversity-talk] Etiquette Guidelines bad | Re: Code of conduct

[Rory McCann]

Have any of yous read the Ettiquette Guidelines¹? They're rubbish.

Frederik broke them by publically calling Mike Migurski out, and for not 
assuming he was acting in good faith. *But* if anyone publishes something 
saying “What Frederik did was wrong” (like I (& others) did), then they are 
also breaking the Ettiquette Guidelines! That's a horrible outcome!

¹ https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Etiquette

On Wed, 9 Dec 2020, at 16:57, Maggie Cawley wrote:
> I am so happy to see this thread. I believe it will take all of us 
> coming together and speaking with a unified voice to bring upon the 
> change we need at the global level. As Clifford mentioned, a few of us 
> from the LCCWG met on Monday to start talking about next steps. It's 
> not about one statement, but rather that discussions and comments like 
> those from this past week affect us all as we work to build diverse 
> communities around the world.   
> 
> Rob, Clifford and I discussed the need for a CoC, but when Rob pointed 
> out the Etiquette Guidelines exist and are pretty widely accepted it 
> seems like a logical place to start. It would also enable us to move a 
> bit more quickly since the document exists and won't need many rounds 
> of community feedback. What is missing is the process for moderation 
> and a committee available to moderate any complaints on breaches of 
> etiquette. It would be helpful to review and suggest edits to the 
> existing guidelines during this process as well. For the US CoC it took 
> about 8 months to finalize the CoC and moderation process, and find 
> volunteers for a committee.
> 
> I look forward to growing the conversation. Thanks Heather for starting 
> this thread here and to all of you who are stepping forward!
> 
> Maggie Cawley
> 
> 
> On Tue, 8 Dec 2020 at 21:30, arnalie faye vicario  
> wrote:
> > Hello/*Kumusta*,
> > 
> > *Salamat*/Thanks everyone for continuing the conversations and taking this 
> > seriously.
> > 
> > It is good to speak up and comment about it in our individual capacities, 
> > but a collective can build a fire  (charcoal comparison). 
> > 
> > This is what we did in OSM PH's Call to Correct Narratives About Geospatial 
> > Work in the Philippines (re: Amazon-HOT video).  
> > 
> > 
> > Also, I would like to quote and highlight what David Garcia 
> > (@mapmakerdavid) has shared in Twitter:
> >> It is not just the maps that matters. Who *makes* the maps matters. Who 
> >> *tells* the stories of the mapping matters, too. Who *LEADS* the mapping 
> >> and storytelling also matters. Who *gets powerful* due to the mapping and 
> >> storytelling matters most.
> > 
> > Thank you Geochicas, Celine @mapeadora, Heather, Rebecca, Miriam 
> > @mapanauta, Nelson Minar, LCCWG Group, OSMF past/present Board members 
> > (Kate, Rory and Mikel), HOT Community WG and everyone who expressed support 
> > and has spoken up (apologies if I missed your name). It is really 
> > encouraging and inspiring. Please add your thoughts in the document: 
> > https://docs.google.com/document/d/130JCTX9ve4H4ORXznmIVTpXiN3TX8nRGA8ayuTZ9ECI/edit
> > 
> > In case you missed it (like me), here is what Celine sent in the OSM talk 
> > mailing list: 
> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2020-December/085727.html.
> > 
> > Let us keep the fire burning!
> > 
> > =Arnalie
> > 
> > On Wed, Dec 9, 2020 at 5:54 AM Clifford Snow  
> > wrote:
> >> I should mention that what we, Maggie Crawely, Rob Nickerson and myself, 
> >> want to accomplish is to create a committee to moderate the existing 
> >> etiquette guidelines and later update the guidelines to reflect best 
> >> practices of Code of Conducts.We planned to form a sub committee under the 
> >> LCCWG since CoC is critical to Local Chapters. We did a survey of Local 
> >> Chapters and those considering forming one. The results showed that 5 LC 
> >> already had a CoC, 6 did not and 6 were consider or in a discussion to 
> >> have a CoC.
> >> 
> >> Clifford
> >> 
> >> On Tue, Dec 8, 2020 at 1:36 PM Heather Leson  
> >> wrote:
> >>> Always
> >>> Heather Leson
> >>> heatherle...@gmail.com
> >>> Twitter/skype: HeatherLeson 
> >>> Blog: textontechs.com
> >>> 
> >>> 
> >>> On Tue, Dec 8, 2020 at 10:31 PM Clifford Snow  
> >>> wrote:
>  Heather - A small group of the LCCWG met via BigBlueButton yesterday to 
>  start a similar initiative. I was going to send an invite to the rest of 
>  the LCCWG as well as to this mailing list. Since you have the ball 
>  rolling, can you include lo...@osmfoundation.org in the mailing.
>  
>  On Tue, Dec 8, 2020 at 1:22 PM Heather Leson  
>  wrote:
> > Great. working in the draft now.  
> > 
> > Thank you right back. Saturday is just a way to discuss this restart. 
> > We can keep building. 
> > 
> > Heather 
> > 
> > Heather Leson
> >