Re: why not load the index first?
On Thu, 2009-01-22 at 19:46 +0530, Kenneth Gonsalves wrote: > On Thursday 22 Jan 2009 7:31:07 pm Malcolm Tredinnick wrote: > > But please do understand that this isn't a > > change that is necessarily universally better for everybody. It does > > harm the content presentation, for example. > > ok - I wont raise this again - but please check out the comments on the IRC > channel about the docs. End users are not happy. Sure, some end users are not happy. That's always the case when thousands of people are using something. Some are happy. Some are delirious. Some don't care. Some, like me, think there are plenty of improvements that could be made and are doing so, as time permits. It's a big world out there; don't be swayed into thinking that one vocal group is necessarily representative of the whole. You'll notice that at no point in this thread am I saying that your opinion is wrong for you, or that everybody likes the new structure. It's simply not a black and white issue. Malcolm --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Django users" group. To post to this group, send email to django-users@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to django-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/django-users?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: why not load the index first?
On Thursday 22 Jan 2009 7:31:07 pm Malcolm Tredinnick wrote: > But please do understand that this isn't a > change that is necessarily universally better for everybody. It does > harm the content presentation, for example. ok - I wont raise this again - but please check out the comments on the IRC channel about the docs. End users are not happy. -- regards KG http://lawgon.livejournal.com --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Django users" group. To post to this group, send email to django-users@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to django-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/django-users?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: why not load the index first?
On Thu, 2009-01-22 at 19:17 +0530, Kenneth Gonsalves wrote: > On Thursday 22 Jan 2009 6:48:11 pm Malcolm Tredinnick wrote: > > I think you have not described whatever problem it is that you're trying > > to solve particularly well. "Index" has at least three different > > meanings for the documentation. I'm assuming you mean the content index > > (/dev/genindex/), but maybe you mean something else. > > ok, the problem is simple: in the old days it was dead easy to find relevant > parts of the docs. Now it is not. Debateable as to the realtive ease. Certainly things are different now and takes some time to get used to. We are also steadily improving things as concrete problems are pointed out. Realise that the earlier versions of the documentation were also becoming quite hard to find things in as individual pages became longer and longer. After the docs refactor the follow-up idea is that we now need to fill in a lot of places with cross-references and with extra documentation so that it can serve the purpose of being both reference and tutorial (for multiple levels of ability) documentation. > I thought it was only me, but I have seen > enough comments on IRC to find that it is general. The main document page for > before restructuring was good. Now the only way to find anything is through > google search. So my request is very simple: if we cannot go back to the old > structure, at least put google search and the module/global index as the > *first* items on the left hand side of the page so we can go there. Okay, so you were talking about the sidebar, not the index pages. > After a > gap, I am coding a new django site, and decided to do it from scratch with no > copy/paste and checking the docs. It is proving difficult. Please do not > think I am criticising the docs - I am not. But I *am* viewing the docs as an > end user and putting forward my feedback. Firstly, I explained in my original post why that meta information is on the right-hand side, not the left (along with it being a design decision). This is one of those things where reasonable people will have different opinions. Having to scroll right if you're on some kind of narrower screen-width browser window just to read the content is kind of painful, too, I'm sure you'll agree. Secondly, if things are hard to find without search (and that is something that is improving over time), a much better fix is to work where the difficulties are and improve them by fixing the docs (via ticket reports with patches). Adrian did that a few months back, for example, when he reorganised the content on the front page. Moving the search box to occupy prime real-estate has drawbacks and doesn't save an enormous amount of time. However, if that does really help you out, one solution that springs to mind is easy: use different stylesheets (or remove the Django stylesheets and just use the default Sphinx ones) on your local build of the docs. You can organise things however you like there. But please do understand that this isn't a change that is necessarily universally better for everybody. It does harm the content presentation, for example. Regards, Malcolm --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Django users" group. To post to this group, send email to django-users@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to django-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/django-users?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: why not load the index first?
On Thursday 22 Jan 2009 6:48:11 pm Malcolm Tredinnick wrote: > I think you have not described whatever problem it is that you're trying > to solve particularly well. "Index" has at least three different > meanings for the documentation. I'm assuming you mean the content index > (/dev/genindex/), but maybe you mean something else. ok, the problem is simple: in the old days it was dead easy to find relevant parts of the docs. Now it is not. I thought it was only me, but I have seen enough comments on IRC to find that it is general. The main document page for before restructuring was good. Now the only way to find anything is through google search. So my request is very simple: if we cannot go back to the old structure, at least put google search and the module/global index as the *first* items on the left hand side of the page so we can go there. After a gap, I am coding a new django site, and decided to do it from scratch with no copy/paste and checking the docs. It is proving difficult. Please do not think I am criticising the docs - I am not. But I *am* viewing the docs as an end user and putting forward my feedback. -- regards KG http://lawgon.livejournal.com --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Django users" group. To post to this group, send email to django-users@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to django-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/django-users?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: why not load the index first?
On Thu, 2009-01-22 at 18:31 +0530, Kenneth Gonsalves wrote: > hi, > > wrt django documentation, why not load the index first - on the left? Do you mean the thing labelled as "general index"? It would use up valuable horizontal screen real-estate without adding a lot of value. On every single page. If you want the index, it's one click away (or bookmark it directly). The same reason (at least one of the reasons) we've shifted the contents sidebar on each page to the righthand side: it's secondary content for the page and our eyes naturally gravitate (when reading English) to the top-left of the screen, so the most important content, the stuff that we are actually visiting the page to read, is in that primary location. Django's documentation strives hard to be readable. As in, you can sit down and read it without it being too distracting or looking like some kind of internet portal landing page. Books and magazines are the most familiar things we read and they don't have huge wordlists down the left hand side of any page. Although it would make things look more like Javadoc, which would drive a lot of us insane, but make things more comfortable for a small group of migrators, I guess. ;-) > Also it > would be helpful if the following links are at the top of the index: > > Search > > * Latest > * 1.0 > * 0.96 > * All Those are there. > > Browse > > * Prev: django.contrib.webdesign > * Next: django-admin.py and manage.py Why are these needed on the index page? You're there to look up some arbitrary section. Next and previous don't make much sense. > * Table of contents > * General Index > * Global Module Index They are already there. I think you have not described whatever problem it is that you're trying to solve particularly well. "Index" has at least three different meanings for the documentation. I'm assuming you mean the content index (/dev/genindex/), but maybe you mean something else. Regards, Malcolm --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Django users" group. To post to this group, send email to django-users@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to django-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/django-users?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
why not load the index first?
hi, wrt django documentation, why not load the index first - on the left? Also it would be helpful if the following links are at the top of the index: Search * Latest * 1.0 * 0.96 * All Browse * Prev: django.contrib.webdesign * Next: django-admin.py and manage.py * Table of contents * General Index * Global Module Index it would be immensely helpful. -- regards KG http://lawgon.livejournal.com --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Django users" group. To post to this group, send email to django-users@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to django-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/django-users?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
