Re: [DNG] xserver-xorg-core in Debian unstable now requires libsystemd0
On 01/29/2016 11:38 AM, Steve Litt wrote: > On Fri, 29 Jan 2016 11:05:15 -0500 > Steve Litt wrote: > > >> Devuan's unique. There are several sans-systemd alternatives, but >> Devuan is the only one I would recommend to someone not intimately >> familiar with the internals of Linux and POSIX. > My preceding assertion is false. Manjaro-OpenRC is another sans-systemd > distro that a mere mortal can install and administer. > In a similar vein Calculate Linux has IMO well put together group of versions based on and compliant with Gentoo with rather elaborate Layman overlays, openRC, eudev and no systemd. Simple setup and install, probably easier than Debian, the install process does not take long unlike the parent Gentoo. It also has an updater. If one uses the somewhat frowned upon Porthole package manager things are almost as easy as Synaptic or at least like Synaptic you can quickly see what is available. Other Gentoo Layman overlays can be added, but of course at that point one must be more careful as it is similar to adding outside repositories in a Debian based distro. Like Devuan I can actually imagine using this on several dissimilar machines, which is not something I would relish with raw Gentoo or other compile on installation distros despite most of them them being anti systemd One day I installed Funtoo with XFCE on my Atom powered Netbook and that is pretty much how long it took. If I had a room full of machines all the same, my view of such installs might be different. Clarke P.S. The Yukon Territory in Canada had a health advertising promotion for Vitamin D that referred to "the D". It created quite an uproar as "the D" is common slang for something else. Living a somewhat sheltered life I had to look "the D" up on the internets. Now I realized why the ads were so funny. Then it occurred to me I already knew what a system was and now I knew what the d was. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Jessie netboot alpha2 (AMD64)
On Thu, 28 Jan 2016 19:06:04 +0100, Florian wrote in message <20160128190604.2f421976.f.zieb...@web.de>: > On Thu, 28 Jan 2016 18:20:29 +0100 > Arnt Karlsen wrote: > > > ..and we are sure we didn't fall for another > > http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?TheKenThompsonHack ? > > Are we?! ..I suspect not in the long term, in the short term I suspect no effort will be spared to try lull us, PHB etc clients into beliefs that we non-believers-in-systemd are mentally challenged and in desperate need of TLC. Etc. ;o) -- ..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt Karlsen ...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry... Scenarios always come in sets of three: best case, worst case, and just in case. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Never say that again: was Debian is endorsed by Microsoft
On 2016-01-27 14:57, Steve Litt wrote: On Mon, 25 Jan 2016 11:42:59 +0100 > And that begs the question: "Who is Karen Sandler?" > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karen_Sandler ..small fish, nice . ;o) The preceding half sentence is one example of something that should NEVER appear in any Devuan venue. Ever. +1 -- Saludos cordiales, Ángel Ramírez Isea. Usuario de Devuan Jessie GNU / Linux # 460737. Coordinador General. Cooperativa Simón Rodríguez para el Conocimiento Libre, RS. www.simonrodriguez.org.ve (261) 524.55.93 -:- (426) 369.57.18 J-40294137-4 ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] xserver-xorg-core in Debian unstable now requires libsystemd0
On Fri, 29 Jan 2016 15:41:05 +0100, richard wrote in message <20160129154105.527b4f678a0b1d58ea7af...@lucassen.org>: > And yes, there is "systemd" in the name. Sorry for that ;-) ..the important thing is what it does when it strikes, not its name, nor what it pretends to do in the mean time. -- ..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt Karlsen ...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry... Scenarios always come in sets of three: best case, worst case, and just in case. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] ..tails boum boum boum: Tails 2.0 is out, systemd "coup d'etat" against torproject.org?
On Fri, 29 Jan 2016 13:11:53 +, hellekin wrote in message <56ab6519.8080...@dyne.org>: > Arnt Karlsen: > > > > and: > > https://tails.boum.org/news/version_2.0/index.en.html > > > > ... > > > > Change to systemd as init system > > > > I think it makes sense for a Live CD desktop distribution to do so, as > it doesn't have to deal with legacy nor with broken upgrades, and it's > not upgrading a running server system with custom scripts. If it > crashes, damage is very limited. > > That said, I'd love to see a Devuan blend that mimicks Tails, Whonix, > JohnDoe, etc. and provides a secure live CD for anonymity and privacy > preservation. ..as a first step, we should mimick qubes-os.org sans systemd and/or pc etc hardware, so we can see and learn etc how etc systemd does what it does in qubes-os, Debian, Tails, Whonix, JohnDoe, etc so we can come up with ways to e.g. prevent systemd subversion of privacy and mass systemd bank robberies. -- ..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt Karlsen ...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry... Scenarios always come in sets of three: best case, worst case, and just in case. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Jessie netboot alpha2 (AMD64)
On Fri, 29 Jan 2016 08:52:36 -0500 Hendrik Boom wrote: > If you add security.debian.org, how does it know *not* to install > security updates that have been systemd-ized? My desktop has the following lines in an /etc/apt/preferences.d/ file: Package: systemd Pin: release o=* Pin-Priority: -1 Package: systemd-sysv Pin: release o=* Pin-Priority: -1 My laptop and some headless *pies here are more halal (scnr*;) on that score: Package: *systemd* Pin: release o=* Pin-Priority: -1 While I didn't actively test it, I think this will prevent not only (first time) installation of packages with cystMD-dependencies but also the upgrade to such a version. * BTW (as for once I am aware of my trolling hahaha), regarding the occasional use of medical vocabulary on this list: Be careful when applying disinfectants. We don't want to produce multiresistancies, do we? Shalom, Florian ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] xserver-xorg-core in Debian unstable now requires libsystemd0
richard lucassen writes: > On Fri, 29 Jan 2016 09:09:53 -0500 Hendrik Boom > wrote: [...] > A thing that remains, as you pointed out in your other post: was > systemd inserted by Debian or by the original developers? That's another question I already answered and since Mr Lucasson likes to label me as "conspiracy theorist", I suggest that whoever doubts the following checks the Debian diff.gz himself. "Systemd support" is an optional feature of the upstream code. It's enabled by default for Debian package builds for Linux (but not Hurd of kFreeBSD) because the package maintainer has chosen to enable it by default. [...] > I'd rather go for a, like Tobias suggested, a libsystemd telling > the package that is linked against, that it runs on a non-systemd > system. As I also already wrote: libsystemd is an alternate implementation of a set of systemd-provided APIs (One guy who posted here claimed it would provide the same features in a different way, another that it wouldn't do anything. I have no interest in checking this myself because it can change at any time and even an API implementation which "does nothing" is an alternate implementation, just a seriously sub-par one). Further, this implementation is provided by the systemd project (same source package). Hence, someone using that gets a system whose API is controlled (both at the specifiation and at the implementation level) by the systemd project. At best, this is a functionally somewhat limited systemd system. [...] > And yes, there is "systemd" in the name. Sorry for that ;-) The situation wouldn't be different if it was called libhubertusblume-from-hell instead. Were I generally inclined to believe that people act intelligently (and I'm certainly not), I'd assume the name was chosen intentionally to provide another cheap way of labelling people with different opinions as nutjobs with a justifcation people who aren't familiar with "programming" are unlikely to be capable of seeing through. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] xserver-xorg-core in Debian unstable now requires libsystemd0
richard lucassen wrote: > I'd rather go for a, like Tobias suggested, a libsystemd telling > the package that is linked against, that it runs on a non-systemd > system. > But maybe that solution is too simple, clear and wrong. I think it's a *possible* solution and has certain attractions - but (excuse my ignorance), isn't there something already ? A library that contains *only* the call to find out if systemd is running, and returns the correct (no it's not) response would seem a pragmatic way of keeping stuff running. If a package in it's own right, would that allow it to show up in Debian's popularity contest, or doesn't it work like that ? So the upside is all that software that "uses systemd if it's there" could run as it as long as the maintainer properly respects non-system systems. The downside is that it legitimises having a hard dependency on (at least) libsystemd0 and fully justifies not trying to be "more clever" about it. Of course, it won't help for stuff that actually requires systemd functions. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] xserver-xorg-core in Debian unstable now requires libsystemd0
On Fri, Jan 29, 2016 at 04:08:15PM +, KatolaZ wrote: > I believe your conspiracy theory is not too far from reality, > indeed. As a matter of fact, the support for the FreeBSD port has > never been official Incorrect, kfreebsd _was_ an official supported architecture, in squeeze and wheezy. Support for wheezy (oldstable) still lasts, albeit only for three months longer. There's no kfreebsd in jessie, though, and there's about no hope there will in stretch. > and to the best of my knowledge Debian GNU/Hurd is practically a frozen > project. Well, the state of Hurd, upstream, is pretty much a joke, so it's a wonder the port is present in Debian even at the current level. > Hence, it will be very easy for the TC to get rid of both "ports". I'd say the danger comes more from sorry state of sysvinit maintenance. Openrc in Debian is in even worse state. -- A tit a day keeps the vet away. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] xserver-xorg-core in Debian unstable now requires libsystemd0
On Fri, 29 Jan 2016 11:05:15 -0500 Steve Litt wrote: > Devuan's unique. There are several sans-systemd alternatives, but > Devuan is the only one I would recommend to someone not intimately > familiar with the internals of Linux and POSIX. My preceding assertion is false. Manjaro-OpenRC is another sans-systemd distro that a mere mortal can install and administer. SteveT Steve Litt January 2016 featured book: Twenty Eight Tales of Troubleshooting http://www.troubleshooters.com/28 ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] ..tails boum boum boum: Tails 2.0 is out, systemd "coup d'etat" against torproject.org?
hellekin writes: > Arnt Karlsen: >> >> and: https://tails.boum.org/news/version_2.0/index.en.html >> >> ... >> >> Change to systemd as init system > > I think it makes sense for a Live CD desktop distribution to do so, as > it doesn't have to deal with legacy nor with broken upgrades, and it's > not upgrading a running server system with custom scripts. If it > crashes, damage is very limited. When I encountered Linux for the first time (RH 3.0.3), one of its most impressive properties was that the startup systems was implemented in a simple, high-level, interpreted language instead of being an undocumented an undocumented, intransparent vendors-supplied piece of binary "magic" beyond the each of users of the system the OSes I had known until then used to use. That this was even possible had never occured to me. This means to me, systemd is a generally laughable attempt at rolling time back to 199x (if not earlier), conducted by people with an 'allergy' against unfamiliar innovations, and I consider the other design much more sensible. It surely warrants improvement but everything can be improved. That's called technical progress. "Start from scratch and do it right this time!", however, is "running in circles", or, as John Kay (AFAIK) aptly put it It's so easy To do nothing When you're busy Night and day Take a step In on direction Take a step The other way ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] xserver-xorg-core in Debian unstable now requires libsystemd0
On Fri, Jan 29, 2016 at 03:36:42PM +, Rainer Weikusat wrote: [cut] > > Conspiracy theory for general entertainment: At some point in time, the > usual suspects will start making noises about how badly the (pitiful) > state of the Hurd and FreeBSD ports reflect "on Debian" and/or how much > valuable resources are taken up by these which should really be used to > serve the interests of "the overwhelming majority of users"[*] and try > to get both killed. > > [*] Superficially, this may sound ok, but it really just means that > any individual can be sacrificed when conventient as everybody is > always his own minority. > Hi Rainer, I believe your conspiracy theory is not too far from reality, indeed. As a matter of fact, the support for the FreeBSD port has never been official, and to the best of my knowledge Debian GNU/Hurd is practically a frozen project. Hence, it will be very easy for the TC to get rid of both "ports". My2Cents KatolaZ -- [ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ --- GLUG Catania -- Freaknet Medialab ] [ me [at] katolaz.homeunix.net -- http://katolaz.homeunix.net -- ] [ GNU/Linux User:#325780/ICQ UIN: #258332181/GPG key ID 0B5F062F ] [ Fingerprint: 8E59 D6AA 445E FDB4 A153 3D5A 5F20 B3AE 0B5F 062F ] ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] xserver-xorg-core in Debian unstable now requires libsystemd0
On Fri, 29 Jan 2016 11:12:12 + Simon Hobson wrote: > > I fear many people won't agree with me, but I think it's better to > > cooperate with Debian than to fight Debian. Peace is always my default policy, but what if those you cooperate with have a pattern and practice of forever doing ever more outrageous stuff? > > Debian has a nice > > infrastructure. If we will be able to build a Debian extension and > > not a Debian fork, I think we can all win. On one side we will be > > able to use Debian's infrastructure and have influence on what's > > going on there, on the other side Debian will have a nice and fully > > supported non-systemd version. [snip] > I can see several reasons it won't/can't happen - all political ! > > 1) Some people here are so "entrenched" in their beliefs that such > "consorting with the enemy" won't be popular. Hey, you've just described me! > 2) Some people in > Debian are so entrenched that such a heretic sub-project would not be > allowed. Hey, you've just described the powers that be at Debian. And Redhat. And Arch. > 3) It would appear that some people here are persona > non-gratis on Debian mailing lists Hey, you just described me again. > (I don't know why, I can only > assume for being vocally anti-systemd), Correct! > that doesn't bode well for > them being accepted back. Oh, all I'd need to do to get accepted back is apologize to Don Armstrong and promise him I won't do it again. That will happen some time after the sun burns out. I would *never* try to stand in the way of closer Devuan/Debian cooperation. But, I fear, for Devuan, that such a closer cooperation would turn out to be a trap in the long term. Devuan's unique. There are several sans-systemd alternatives, but Devuan is the only one I would recommend to someone not intimately familiar with the internals of Linux and POSIX. Devuan's future must be protected. SteveT Steve Litt January 2016 featured book: Twenty Eight Tales of Troubleshooting http://www.troubleshooters.com/28 ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] xserver-xorg-core in Debian unstable now requires libsystemd0
Hendrik Boom writes: [...] >> Until Debian formally ejects it's non-Linux sub-projects, any such >> attempts are restricted to being more-or-less elaborate nuisances >> created by people with too much time on their hands. > > Do you mean "ejects its non-systemd subprojects"? At least to some degree, Debian also exists for the GNU/Hurd non-kernel and the FreeBSD kernel. There's no systemd for either of both as the systemd project doesn't support anything but Linux and glibc (and reportedly, even only specific version of that). Consequently, portable packages (like the X server) can be "systemd enhanced" for Linux users but must generally retain the ability to function without it. This, in turn, means that it will remain fairly easy to support "non-systemd Linux, too". Conspiracy theory for general entertainment: At some point in time, the usual suspects will start making noises about how badly the (pitiful) state of the Hurd and FreeBSD ports reflect "on Debian" and/or how much valuable resources are taken up by these which should really be used to serve the interests of "the overwhelming majority of users"[*] and try to get both killed. [*] Superficially, this may sound ok, but it really just means that any individual can be sacrificed when conventient as everybody is always his own minority. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] xserver-xorg-core in Debian unstable now requires libsystemd0
richard lucassen writes: > On Thu, 28 Jan 2016 17:54:22 + > Rainer Weikusat wrote: > >> >> The issue is that many people in devuan are so allergic to systemd >> >> that they will not tolerate a library with that string in its name. >> > >> > Ah, I didn't know that. Thnx :) >> >> Considering that I wrote that in reply to you and also in reply to the >> other person who asserted "Don't worry. We just have you best interest >> in mind!" why was there any uncertainty of the technical purpose of >> libsystemd? > > Now you're suggesting that libsystemd is all CSS. Any programmer can > have a look at the sources to see if Tobias is right or not. As far as I know, CSS means 'Cascading Style Sheets'. But this doesn't make any sense in the given context. But I'd like to point out that I didn't claim Tobias was wrong in the factual parts of his statement. But the spin he put on them was basically "Systemd is good for you and people who don't agree are lunatics". Without the spin is statement doesn't look so nice anymore, but that's not my fault. > But anyway, I will not say that you're wrong, I just don't know. But I > think that all sorts of conspiracy theories will not help us any > further. If you're confusing a factually correct explanation of statements made on this list with "a conspiracy theory", as you apparently do, this would be a problem on the receiving end. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] xserver-xorg-core in Debian unstable now requires libsystemd0
On Fri, 29 Jan 2016 09:09:53 -0500 Hendrik Boom wrote: > There are many Debian developers who maintain packages that have > nothing to do with systemd, and who do not entangle their packages > with systemd. They may not be working for systemd specifically, but > they can indded be considered to be working to our benefit. I'm sure > they are aware that their work is used by many, many Debian > derivatives. Oh yes, sure. But for how long? And which packages? Suppose "cat" is dependent op systemd, that's more evil than the NeverHeardOf package. > Without them, out project would be doomed. A thing that remains, as you pointed out in your other post: was systemd inserted by Debian or by the original developers? And this is only the xorg package, but there are many, many other packages out there. Who is going to maintain that without the coorporation of Debian? Who is responsible for the security updates? Those questions need to be answered. I'd rather go for a, like Tobias suggested, a libsystemd telling the package that is linked against, that it runs on a non-systemd system. But maybe that solution is too simple, clear and wrong. And I simply miss the skills to give the correct answer to that question. And yes, there is "systemd" in the name. Sorry for that ;-) R. -- richard lucassen http://contact.xaq.nl/ ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] xserver-xorg-core in Debian unstable now requires libsystemd0
On Fri, Jan 29, 2016 at 09:15:18AM -0500, Hendrik Boom wrote: > On Thu, Jan 28, 2016 at 05:16:04PM +0100, Adam Borowski wrote: > > I just uploaded deinfested xserver-xorg packages, but I don't have the time > > right now to test on diverse setups. All I tested is my home desktop, with > > nvidia proprietary. Thus, it'd be interesting to hear if there are any new > > failures for other people. > > About the infested xserver-org packages: > > Were they infested upstream by the xorg developers, or were they > infested by Debian? Upstream allows building with or without systemd, with two switches: --enable-systemd-logind --with-systemd-daemon Debian turned these switches on. -- A tit a day keeps the vet away. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] xserver-xorg-core in Debian unstable now requires libsystemd0
On Thu, Jan 28, 2016 at 05:16:04PM +0100, Adam Borowski wrote: > On Thu, Jan 28, 2016 at 09:33:52PM +1030, Arthur Marsh wrote: > > Hi, has anyone built the xserver-xorg-core from Debian unstable without > > libsystemd0? > > libsystemd0 is benign. The new dependency on libpam-systemd is worse, as it > actually breaks things if systemd is absent. > > On the other hand, rebuilding with --disable-systemd-logind > --without-systemd-daemon seems to work. > > > I'm still running Debian but with the angband.pl repositories and this marks > > another stage of being unable to avoid libsystemd0 in Debian. > > I just uploaded deinfested xserver-xorg packages, but I don't have the time > right now to test on diverse setups. All I tested is my home desktop, with > nvidia proprietary. Thus, it'd be interesting to hear if there are any new > failures for other people. About the infested xserver-org packages: Were they infested upstream by the xorg developers, or were they infested by Debian? Or is the situation vastly more complicated than this? -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] xserver-xorg-core in Debian unstable now requires libsystemd0
On Fri, Jan 29, 2016 at 02:45:34PM +0100, richard lucassen wrote: > On Fri, 29 Jan 2016 12:46:20 + > KatolaZ wrote: > > > And what is exactly your plan to have Devuan somehow merged "into > > Debian", given that any attempt to criticise, even in a constructive > > manner, any systemd-related stuff is immediately labelled as > > "trolling" in debian-user (just to make an example)? > > That is why I mentioned "silent diplomacy". It makes no sense to start > a flame war on a list populated by a "systemd " crowd. I have > nothing against systemd, if someone wants to use it, it's ok for me. > There is more than . That's all I want to say. > > > What is the choice offered by Debian once they have decided that > > systemd has to be a not-unpluggable component of a Debian system? > > For the moment I'm still able to run Debian systemd free, apart from > libsystemd0. And unfortunately I am not able to predict the future of > Debian, nor the future of systemd. > > > How could we dream of having a systemd-free Debian if the only > > alternative offered by Debian, and accepted by the TC, is > > systemd-o-la-muerte? > > Silent diplomacy is the keyword IMHO. The only argument is "freedom of > choice". The problem is that such a discussion often ends up > technical arguments against (which is irrelevant) > or emotional arguments (fuck Poettering) or either ends up in Godwin's > Law. The end of the story is that nobody wins. > > > If Debian hadn't started, 22 years ago, as a "NeverHeardOf" operating > > system, today you would not have the problem of migrating hundred of > > servers from Debian... > > It will take a long time before Devuan deserves and gets the credits > necessary for corporate use. How many people work on Devuan? How many > people work on Debian? The difference is huge at the moment. Maybe > Devuan will be the biggest distro in 5 years. Maybe Devuan will be > burried in five years. Noone knows. There are many Debian developers who maintain packages that have nothing to do with systemd, and who do not entangle their packages with systemd. They may not be working for systemd specifically, but they can indded be considered to be working to our benefit. I'm sure they are aware that their work is used by many, many Debian derivatives. Without them, out project would be doomed. -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] xserver-xorg-core in Debian unstable now requires libsystemd0
On Thu, Jan 28, 2016 at 01:21:07PM +, Rainer Weikusat wrote: > richard lucassen writes: > > Daniel Reurich wrote: > > > >> > I'm still running Debian but with the angband.pl repositories and > >> > this marks another stage of being unable to avoid libsystemd0 in > >> > Debian. > >> > >> Not yet, but it's noted and I'll work on that next week once work has > >> settled down a bit... > > > > I'm not a programmer, maybe I'm saying something incredibly stupid, so > > please don't shoot me, but wouldn't it be a better idea to build a > > Devuan libsystemd0 that fakes the real libsystemd0 instead of adapting > > all programs to not using libsystemd0? > > This depends on how the library is being used. If it's just a spurious > dependency, a simple dummy will work in place of it. But this usually > won't be the case as the express purpose of libsystemd is to enable code > to be written/ changed to use systemd APIs instead of the facilities > systemd uses to implement these by providing a second implementation of > the systemd API in a library. > > For the given case, this means that the Debian package will enable X > server systemd support unconditionally when building for a Linux-based > system and the corresponding facilities are either supposed to be > provided by system-alpha, the set of programs controlling the system, or > by systemd-quisling, the secondary (and presumably somewhat sub-par) > implementation in the library. > > Until Debian formally ejects it's non-Linux sub-projects, any such > attempts are restricted to being more-or-less elaborate nuisances > created by people with too much time on their hands. Do you mean "ejects its non-systemd subprojects"? Or do I misunderstand you? -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Jessie netboot alpha2 (AMD64)
On Thu, Jan 28, 2016 at 04:07:00PM +0100, Florian Zieboll wrote: > On Thu, 28 Jan 2016 08:15:01 -0500 > Hendrik Boom wrote: > > > On Wed, Jan 27, 2016 at 08:03:45PM +0100, Florian Zieboll wrote: > > > > > > * In the "configure package manager" section the installer suggests > > > to choose "security updates" from security.debian.org. According to > > > a mail on this list from some weeks ago, this is deprecated. > > > > Looks like I missed this. Where should I go for devuan security > > updates? > > Sorry for the confusion, I obviously don't remember correctly that in > the past weeks somebody had stated this. When searching for that > specific mail, which I had given up in a first attempt due to a bug I > just reported, I only found the exact opposite statement: > > | On Tue, 05 Jan 2016 11:33:40 +1300 > | Daniel Reurich wrote: > | > | > We are NOT merging backports or updates or security updates. > | > > Perhaps the "NOT" was shouted too loudly for me to hear it ;) So I > finally added security.debian.org to the sources.list and must confess > that it was a good idea, as the update pulled quite a lot, including > rather exposed stuff like bind9-host, claws-mail, curl, iceweasel, > linux-image-amd64 and openjdk-7-jre... If you add security.debian.org, how does it know *not* to install security updates that have been systemd-ized? And what should we do with them? -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] xserver-xorg-core in Debian unstable now requires libsystemd0
On Fri, 29 Jan 2016 12:46:20 + KatolaZ wrote: > And what is exactly your plan to have Devuan somehow merged "into > Debian", given that any attempt to criticise, even in a constructive > manner, any systemd-related stuff is immediately labelled as > "trolling" in debian-user (just to make an example)? That is why I mentioned "silent diplomacy". It makes no sense to start a flame war on a list populated by a "systemd " crowd. I have nothing against systemd, if someone wants to use it, it's ok for me. There is more than . That's all I want to say. > What is the choice offered by Debian once they have decided that > systemd has to be a not-unpluggable component of a Debian system? For the moment I'm still able to run Debian systemd free, apart from libsystemd0. And unfortunately I am not able to predict the future of Debian, nor the future of systemd. > How could we dream of having a systemd-free Debian if the only > alternative offered by Debian, and accepted by the TC, is > systemd-o-la-muerte? Silent diplomacy is the keyword IMHO. The only argument is "freedom of choice". The problem is that such a discussion often ends up technical arguments against (which is irrelevant) or emotional arguments (fuck Poettering) or either ends up in Godwin's Law. The end of the story is that nobody wins. > If Debian hadn't started, 22 years ago, as a "NeverHeardOf" operating > system, today you would not have the problem of migrating hundred of > servers from Debian... It will take a long time before Devuan deserves and gets the credits necessary for corporate use. How many people work on Devuan? How many people work on Debian? The difference is huge at the moment. Maybe Devuan will be the biggest distro in 5 years. Maybe Devuan will be burried in five years. Noone knows. The only way to win something is to talk Freedom Of Choice Language, not systemd bashing. Systemd is there, accept that it exists. Maybe within a short time there will be a zero day vulnerabilty in systemd and half the internet gets exploited and systemd will melt down by it's own structure. I have no idea. I'll tell you in five years from now. R. -- richard lucassen http://contact.xaq.nl/ ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] ..tails boum boum boum: Tails 2.0 is out, systemd "coup d'etat" against torproject.org?
Arnt Karlsen: > > and: https://tails.boum.org/news/version_2.0/index.en.html > > ... > > Change to systemd as init system > I think it makes sense for a Live CD desktop distribution to do so, as it doesn't have to deal with legacy nor with broken upgrades, and it's not upgrading a running server system with custom scripts. If it crashes, damage is very limited. That said, I'd love to see a Devuan blend that mimicks Tails, Whonix, JohnDoe, etc. and provides a secure live CD for anonymity and privacy preservation. == hk -- _ _ We are free to share code and we code to share freedom (_X_)yne Foundation, Free Culture Foundry * https://www.dyne.org/donate/ ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] xserver-xorg-core in Debian unstable now requires libsystemd0
On Fri, Jan 29, 2016 at 01:16:42PM +0100, richard lucassen wrote: [cut] > > I think Devuan will be much more succesfull as a part of Debian than as > a stand alone distro. We will be number 2067 on the list of > "NeverHeardOf" distro's. The time ROI is very low if Devuan is staying > alone IMHO. > > We need (silent) diplomacy, not anti-Debian oratory. It's all about > freedom of choice, nothing more, nothing less. If mister Poettering > suffers from some form of narcism, it is not a reason for us to behave > the same way. > > "winner of the war" has been proven to be a contraditio in terminis. > And what is exactly your plan to have Devuan somehow merged "into Debian", given that any attempt to criticise, even in a constructive manner, any systemd-related stuff is immediately labelled as "trolling" in debian-user (just to make an example)? What is the choice offered by Debian once they have decided that systemd has to be a not-unpluggable component of a Debian system? How could we dream of having a systemd-free Debian if the only alternative offered by Debian, and accepted by the TC, is systemd-o-la-muerte? If Debian hadn't started, 22 years ago, as a "NeverHeardOf" operating system, today you would not have the problem of migrating hundred of servers from Debian... My2Cents KatolaZ -- [ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ --- GLUG Catania -- Freaknet Medialab ] [ me [at] katolaz.homeunix.net -- http://katolaz.homeunix.net -- ] [ GNU/Linux User:#325780/ICQ UIN: #258332181/GPG key ID 0B5F062F ] [ Fingerprint: 8E59 D6AA 445E FDB4 A153 3D5A 5F20 B3AE 0B5F 062F ] ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] xserver-xorg-core in Debian unstable now requires libsystemd0
On Fri, 29 Jan 2016 08:23:14 -0300 Marlon Nunes wrote: > This was already discussed, Devuan is a new project with their own > ideas. Please look at the mailing list archives. The Devuan is moving > forward to put in practice their own ideas. So forget about Debian. I know that it was discussed, but if Devuan wants to grow it should be able to offer a stable and well maintained repository. That is not the case at the moment, it's all dependent on a few people who are willing to put their precious time into Devuan. But will this be enough? Devuan is nice for a few nerds and in alpha stage, but I will not migrate corporate systems to Devuan as long as Devuan is a hobby project without a well maintained and broadly supported infrastructure. I have some workstations running Debian testing without systemd (but with libsystemd0) and I can easily switch to Devuan (I have successfully migrated one desktop). But apart from these workstations, I also run a few hunderd non-X Debian systems (all systemd free) and I'd like to keep them systemd free. But I cannot simply migrate these systems to Devuan just because Devuan's base is too small, for production environments I simply cannot rely on Devuan for the moment. That this issue has been discussed over and over again is not a reason to forget about Debian. If you can't beat then, join them. All controversies are of a political character (read: emotional character) and neither Devuan nor Debian gets better that way. I think Devuan will be much more succesfull as a part of Debian than as a stand alone distro. We will be number 2067 on the list of "NeverHeardOf" distro's. The time ROI is very low if Devuan is staying alone IMHO. We need (silent) diplomacy, not anti-Debian oratory. It's all about freedom of choice, nothing more, nothing less. If mister Poettering suffers from some form of narcism, it is not a reason for us to behave the same way. "winner of the war" has been proven to be a contraditio in terminis. R. -- richard lucassen http://contact.xaq.nl/ ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] xserver-xorg-core in Debian unstable now requires libsystemd0
On Fri, 29 Jan 2016 11:07:42 +0100, richard wrote in message <20160129110742.d8df6c714fb85bdb6e197...@lucassen.org>: > On Thu, 28 Jan 2016 17:54:22 + > Rainer Weikusat wrote: > > > >> The issue is that many people in devuan are so allergic to > > >> systemd that they will not tolerate a library with that string > > >> in its name. > > > > > > Ah, I didn't know that. Thnx :) > > > > Considering that I wrote that in reply to you and also in reply to > > the other person who asserted "Don't worry. We just have you best > > interest in mind!" why was there any uncertainty of the technical > > purpose of libsystemd? > > Now you're suggesting that libsystemd is all CSS. Any programmer can > have a look at the sources to see if Tobias is right or not. > > But anyway, I will not say that you're wrong, I just don't know. But I > think that all sorts of conspiracy theories will not help us any > further. > > I'm very pleased to see that someone is building a libsystemdfree > xorg. But what about security updates? And what about future > versions? Who is going to do that? What about the robustness of > Devuan? Don't get me wrong, I really like the Devuan project, but > wouldn't it be better to create a "systemv.debian.org", a sub version > of debian, like the "backports.debian.org"? If Devuan is part of the > Debian project, we will have much more influence on what's going on. > Maybe it's better to build an extension to Debian than to build our > own infrastructure. > > I fear many people won't agree with me, but I think it's better to > cooperate with Debian than to fight Debian. Debian has a nice > infrastructure. If we will be able to build a Debian extension and not > a Debian fork, I think we can all win. On one side we will be able to > use Debian's infrastructure and have influence on what's going on > there, on the other side Debian will have a nice and fully supported > non-systemd version. ..I totally agree it would be nice. Then again there's that zeal on both sides, and that KenThompsonsque opacity on the systemd side (http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?TheKenThompsonHack ), e.g. I don't understand why the systemd coups were neccessary, if systemd is any good, it should win on its technological merits and on its performance, and not on its banana republic politics. ..so either way, I guess we should try provide a viable non-systemd back-up infrastructure. -- ..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt Karlsen ...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry... Scenarios always come in sets of three: best case, worst case, and just in case. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] xserver-xorg-core in Debian unstable now requires libsystemd0
This was already discussed, Devuan is a new project with their own ideas. Please look at the mailing list archives. The Devuan is moving forward to put in practice their own ideas. So forget about Debian. On 2016-01-29 07:07, richard lucassen wrote: On Thu, 28 Jan 2016 17:54:22 + Rainer Weikusat wrote: >> The issue is that many people in devuan are so allergic to systemd >> that they will not tolerate a library with that string in its name. > > Ah, I didn't know that. Thnx :) Considering that I wrote that in reply to you and also in reply to the other person who asserted "Don't worry. We just have you best interest in mind!" why was there any uncertainty of the technical purpose of libsystemd? Now you're suggesting that libsystemd is all CSS. Any programmer can have a look at the sources to see if Tobias is right or not. But anyway, I will not say that you're wrong, I just don't know. But I think that all sorts of conspiracy theories will not help us any further. I'm very pleased to see that someone is building a libsystemdfree xorg. But what about security updates? And what about future versions? Who is going to do that? What about the robustness of Devuan? Don't get me wrong, I really like the Devuan project, but wouldn't it be better to create a "systemv.debian.org", a sub version of debian, like the "backports.debian.org"? If Devuan is part of the Debian project, we will have much more influence on what's going on. Maybe it's better to build an extension to Debian than to build our own infrastructure. I fear many people won't agree with me, but I think it's better to cooperate with Debian than to fight Debian. Debian has a nice infrastructure. If we will be able to build a Debian extension and not a Debian fork, I think we can all win. On one side we will be able to use Debian's infrastructure and have influence on what's going on there, on the other side Debian will have a nice and fully supported non-systemd version. R. -- Stop slacking you lazy bum! ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] xserver-xorg-core in Debian unstable now requires libsystemd0
richard lucassen wrote: > I'm very pleased to see that someone is building a libsystemdfree xorg. > But what about security updates? And what about future versions? Who is > going to do that? What about the robustness of Devuan? Don't get me > wrong, I really like the Devuan project, but wouldn't it be better to > create a "systemv.debian.org", a sub version of debian, like the > "backports.debian.org"? If Devuan is part of the Debian project, we > will have much more influence on what's going on. Maybe it's better to > build an extension to Debian than to build our own infrastructure. > > I fear many people won't agree with me, but I think it's better to > cooperate with Debian than to fight Debian. Debian has a nice > infrastructure. If we will be able to build a Debian extension and not > a Debian fork, I think we can all win. On one side we will be able to > use Debian's infrastructure and have influence on what's going on > there, on the other side Debian will have a nice and fully supported > non-systemd version. I agree with you, for so many reasons it would make more sense - as you point out, Debian already has all the infrastructure in place to support that. One of the concerns I have with Devuan is that there's a shortish window (basically until Debian Wheezy is out of support) to get a "viable"* project up and running - after which the boat has been missed for a lot of potential users*. I would add that if there were an official systemd-free Debian subproject, then it would be easier to get package maintainers to support non-systemd versions. At present, the attitude from some of them is "systemd is the default, if you don't install libsystemd0 then tough " - the ClamAV guys were "fairly intolerant" of suggestions that they could make that a soft dependency ! Though they still did a Wheezy-security update so already have two versions of the package (with and without libsystemd0 requirement. I can see several reasons it won't/can't happen - all political ! 1) Some people here are so "entrenched" in their beliefs that such "consorting with the enemy" won't be popular. 2) Some people in Debian are so entrenched that such a heretic sub-project would not be allowed. 3) It would appear that some people here are persona non-gratis on Debian mailing lists (I don't know why, I can only assume for being vocally anti-systemd), that doesn't bode well for them being accepted back. * For a lot of people, there are PHBs to keep happy. If the PHB expects stuff to be a supported version, from a recognised distro, with proper package repositories - then the current setup where it's a mix of Debian and "some guys personal repository"** then that won't cut it. ** Apologies if I'm wrong, but that's how it looks at the moment. It would be nice if we could avoid the corporate politics, but for most, that's not possible. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Purchasing a new computer/laptop
On Fri, 29 Jan 2016 15:30:13 +0800, Brad wrote in message <56ab1505.7080...@fnarfbargle.com>: > I've snipped the remainder of your reply because personally I could > not make head nor tail of what you were on about and it looked like a > steaming pile of misdirected political ..yeah, quite like groklaw.net and devuan... ;oD -- ..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt Karlsen ...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry... Scenarios always come in sets of three: best case, worst case, and just in case. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] xserver-xorg-core in Debian unstable now requires libsystemd0
On Thu, 28 Jan 2016 17:54:22 + Rainer Weikusat wrote: > >> The issue is that many people in devuan are so allergic to systemd > >> that they will not tolerate a library with that string in its name. > > > > Ah, I didn't know that. Thnx :) > > Considering that I wrote that in reply to you and also in reply to the > other person who asserted "Don't worry. We just have you best interest > in mind!" why was there any uncertainty of the technical purpose of > libsystemd? Now you're suggesting that libsystemd is all CSS. Any programmer can have a look at the sources to see if Tobias is right or not. But anyway, I will not say that you're wrong, I just don't know. But I think that all sorts of conspiracy theories will not help us any further. I'm very pleased to see that someone is building a libsystemdfree xorg. But what about security updates? And what about future versions? Who is going to do that? What about the robustness of Devuan? Don't get me wrong, I really like the Devuan project, but wouldn't it be better to create a "systemv.debian.org", a sub version of debian, like the "backports.debian.org"? If Devuan is part of the Debian project, we will have much more influence on what's going on. Maybe it's better to build an extension to Debian than to build our own infrastructure. I fear many people won't agree with me, but I think it's better to cooperate with Debian than to fight Debian. Debian has a nice infrastructure. If we will be able to build a Debian extension and not a Debian fork, I think we can all win. On one side we will be able to use Debian's infrastructure and have influence on what's going on there, on the other side Debian will have a nice and fully supported non-systemd version. R. -- richard lucassen http://contact.xaq.nl/ ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] xserver-xorg-core in Debian unstable now requires libsystemd0
Hi Adam, On 29/01/16 05:16, Adam Borowski wrote: > On Thu, Jan 28, 2016 at 09:33:52PM +1030, Arthur Marsh wrote: >> Hi, has anyone built the xserver-xorg-core from Debian unstable without >> libsystemd0? > > libsystemd0 is benign. The new dependency on libpam-systemd is worse, as it > actually breaks things if systemd is absent. > > On the other hand, rebuilding with --disable-systemd-logind > --without-systemd-daemon seems to work. > >> I'm still running Debian but with the angband.pl repositories and this marks >> another stage of being unable to avoid libsystemd0 in Debian. > > I just uploaded deinfested xserver-xorg packages, but I don't have the time > right now to test on diverse setups. All I tested is my home desktop, with > nvidia proprietary. Thus, it'd be interesting to hear if there are any new > failures for other people. > Can you spin us the patch, and I'll build it for Devuan. Regards, Daniel -- Daniel Reurich Centurion Computer Technology (2005) Ltd. 021 797 722 signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
