Re: [DNG] Unofficial Devuan Jessie Beta Live Minimal

[Joel Roth]

KatolaZ wrote:
> I am working instead to include a runlevel with support for espeakout
> and brltty, which will require just a few megabytes and will be far
> more useful than zenity.

Glad to hear of this. I consider that support for the blind linux user community
should be a high priority.
 
> HND
> 
> KatolaZ
> 
> -- 
> [ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ --- GLUG Catania -- Freaknet Medialab ]
> [ me [at] katolaz.homeunix.net -- http://katolaz.homeunix.net -- ]
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Re: [DNG] Brief OpenRC/Jessie Discussion on the linux-elitists lists

[Steve Litt]

On Mon, 16 May 2016 08:26:11 -0500
dev  wrote:

> On 05/16/2016 05:12 AM, Jaromil wrote:
> > To all those who think this and other similar approaches may
> > invalidate the need of our fork: please consider we are not just
> > forking Debian because of systemd, but because the people who have
> > taken over the leadership of that distro have betrayed its mandate,
> > shown no respect of its Constitution and offer no reliability
> > anymore for any reasonable professional use of Debian.  
> 
> Very well spoken. Debian leadership has demonstrated it's disinterest
> in remaining "Free". There is another motive driving Debian
> development now and Systemd will end up being the core of Debian. To
> remove it will only mean uninstalling the entirety of the distro
> itself.

What I'm about to say is barely germane to what you two both said, but
I'll say it anyway.

I *never* felt comfortable in the Debian community, even before the
"systemd thing". Those people were mean. They were arrogant. I'm not
talking about the DDs, I'm talking of the rank and file. Never has any
single mailing list generated so many entries in my .procmailrc. They'd
spend days and days on threads putting each other down for stuff having
nothing to do with Debian or Linux. They'd white-glove critique the
questioning of newbies who just needed to get their computers running.
They'd flame the daylights out of you, and then just before their
signature they'd say "Cheers". Sy whaaat?

They also had a grossly inflated sense of their technical prowess. They
thought they were Stephan Hawking and Ken Thompson all rolled into one.
And they'd let you know of their superiority, even if they had to make
provably false technical statements to do so.

With a community like that, the abyssal behavior of the leadership and
the DDs is quite understandable. The rot had started from the rank and
file. The 5 months between the time I started using Debian and the time
I knew about the systemd fiasco, I never felt part of the Debian
"team".

The moment I moved to the modular-debian list, whose members later
moved en-mass to dng, I felt at home. This was my team. Still is.

And I have this other opinion. In my opinion, the smart and
constructive minority of the Debian project moved over here, where
something new and needed is being done. I doubt the current vestiges of
the Debian project can long hold on: Even if they have the tech chops,
which is nowhere near certain, they lack the people skills.

In 1964 a guy named Dobie Gray sang a song called "I'm In With the In
Crowd." That's how I feel being part of Devuan.

SteveT

Steve Litt 
May 2016 featured book: Rapid Learning for the 21st Century
http://www.troubleshooters.com/rl21
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[DNG] Fwd: JWM Package worth the effort? was About subject lines

[Ozi Traveller]

+1 JWM ;)


On Tue, May 17, 2016 at 11:15 AM, Steve Litt 
wrote:

> On Mon, 16 May 2016 11:31:11 +0200
>  wrote:
>
>
> > PS. You didn't answer if it would be a reasonable effort to create a
> > JWM based desktop as an option for devuan ... :)
>
> I don't have an opinion on that. If I really loved JWM to death, I
> might make such a package. Or I might just compile from upstream source.
>
> I guess I'd respond like this: If there are one or two Devuanians who
> love JWM, they're better off compiling from upstream source. If there
> are five or ten JWM-loving Devuanians, better to make a package.
>
> I'm not really a JWM-lover, because I usually don't need a panel, and
> when I do, LXDE is good enough. The reason I choose LXDE over JWM is
> that LXDE does Alt+Tab like Bill Gates set it up (win95 was an
> incredible in its human engineering), whereas JWM does it in a way that
> screws me up.
>
> But of course, if I were ever to set up a GUI computer that used 128MB
> RAM, you'd better believe I'd use JWM. And there's something so
> Army-Surplus countercultural about JWM!
>
> SteveT
>
> Steve Litt
> May 2016 featured book: Rapid Learning for the 21st Century
> http://www.troubleshooters.com/rl21
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Re: [DNG] Brief OpenRC/Jessie Discussion on the linux-elitists lists

[Steve Litt]

On Mon, 16 May 2016 12:12:20 +0200
Jaromil  wrote:

> On Mon, 16 May 2016, emnin...@riseup.net wrote:
> 
> > As for the rest, i'd be interested in what you think about the
> > content of that discussion.  
> 
> I think it minimizes the problem systemd brings to Debian and the
> problem the current Debian leadership has with its own constituency.

Pre-cisely!

> I sincerely wish the remedy of installing openrc and pinning systemd
> would work, but I'm sure it won't on the mid-long term.

It obviously can't. The same Debian leadership who voted "no" (or was
it "we don't need no steenkin GR") on supporting multiple inits now
determines whether the OpenRC package is maintained or not. That's no
foundation on which to build init choice freedom.

> 
> To all those who think this and other similar approaches may
> invalidate the need of our fork: please consider we are not just
> forking Debian because of systemd, but because the people who have
> taken over the leadership of that distro have betrayed its mandate,
> shown no respect of its Constitution and offer no reliability anymore
> for any reasonable professional use of Debian.

Ex-actly!
> 
> I'm talking about the hooligans and politicians who are using systemd
> as an occasion to take over and bully away disagreement, 

Read their posts on mailing lists. They're disgusting.

> those who
> Bruce Perens defines the "anal-retentive policy wonks who believe they
> only make the distribution for themselves and have (perhaps without
> intending to) systematically marginalized Debian and made the project
> a whore to Ubuntu."
> https://linux.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=5852295=48188823
 
LOL, I think Parens was talking about us, not about the systemd
fanboiz. But whatever: Of all the Free Software movement pioneers, I
find Parens the least credible. I fall more on the side of RMS and ESR
(who fall on different sides of each other).

By the way Jaromil, several days ago I told Rick the exact same stuff
you wrote here. If it were only systemd, and if the Debian DDs (boy do
I hate that phrase) were willing to admit their mistake, we wouldn't be
here. It's about Debian no longer being safe stewards of GNU/Linux.

SteveT

Steve Litt 
May 2016 featured book: Rapid Learning for the 21st Century
http://www.troubleshooters.com/rl21
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[DNG] JWM Package worth the effort? was About subject lines

[Steve Litt]

On Mon, 16 May 2016 11:31:11 +0200
 wrote:


> PS. You didn't answer if it would be a reasonable effort to create a
> JWM based desktop as an option for devuan ... :)

I don't have an opinion on that. If I really loved JWM to death, I
might make such a package. Or I might just compile from upstream source.

I guess I'd respond like this: If there are one or two Devuanians who
love JWM, they're better off compiling from upstream source. If there
are five or ten JWM-loving Devuanians, better to make a package.

I'm not really a JWM-lover, because I usually don't need a panel, and
when I do, LXDE is good enough. The reason I choose LXDE over JWM is
that LXDE does Alt+Tab like Bill Gates set it up (win95 was an
incredible in its human engineering), whereas JWM does it in a way that
screws me up.

But of course, if I were ever to set up a GUI computer that used 128MB
RAM, you'd better believe I'd use JWM. And there's something so
Army-Surplus countercultural about JWM!

SteveT

Steve Litt 
May 2016 featured book: Rapid Learning for the 21st Century
http://www.troubleshooters.com/rl21
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Re: [DNG] Devuan on RPi2

[info at smallinnovations.nl]

On 16-05-16 15:59, parazyd wrote:

On Mon, 16 May 2016, info at smallinnovations.nl wrote:


I spended today some time to setup a Devuan version from my webradio on a
RPi2 and have 3 remarks.

 - had to add module snd_bcm2835 manually
 - had to add alsa manually
 - icecast2 asks for configuration parameters but does not save them (is
most likely not Devuan related but ask here to be sure)

More people this experience?

It's meant to be very minimal. If you want to autoload the kernel
modules, it's as easy as putting them into /etc/modules

Icecast on De*an does behave strange, even in my experience. In my case,
I remember having to edit the initscript itself.

Very minimal is fine with me but the RPi2 has only one soundmodule to 
choose from so default install would be usefull imho.
Alsa is another story because you can choose between alsa, pulseaudio 
and jack so i do not mind it is not installed by default.


Icecast2 indeed behaves weird on De*an. With installation it asks to 
configure source-password, relay-password and admin-password but 
afterwards you have to edit them manually in /etc/icecast2/icecast.xml 
again. And you have to enable icecast2 by manually editing 
/etc/default/icecast2.


Grtz (c) ;-)

Nick



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Re: [DNG] Devuan on RPi2

[parazyd]

On Mon, 16 May 2016, info at smallinnovations.nl wrote:

> I spended today some time to setup a Devuan version from my webradio on a
> RPi2 and have 3 remarks.
> 
> - had to add module snd_bcm2835 manually
> - had to add alsa manually
> - icecast2 asks for configuration parameters but does not save them (is
> most likely not Devuan related but ask here to be sure)
> 
> More people this experience?

It's meant to be very minimal. If you want to autoload the kernel
modules, it's as easy as putting them into /etc/modules

Icecast on De*an does behave strange, even in my experience. In my case,
I remember having to edit the initscript itself.

-- 
~ parazyd
0333 7671 FDE7 5BB6 A85E  C91F B876 CB44 FA1B 0274



pgp6fFsk8H6OU.pgp
Description: PGP signature
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Re: [DNG] Devuan on RPi2

[KatolaZ]

On Mon, May 16, 2016 at 03:33:18PM +0200, info at smallinnovations.nl wrote:
> I spended today some time to setup a Devuan version from my webradio
> on a RPi2 and have 3 remarks.
> 
> - had to add module snd_bcm2835 manually
> - had to add alsa manually
> - icecast2 asks for configuration parameters but does not save
> them (is most likely not Devuan related but ask here to be sure)
> 
> More people this experience?
> 

I have not tried the beta image on rpi2. I dist-upgraded from raspbian
and have had no problems since then. Happy to hear that everything
goes fine with a genuine devuan rpi2 image, though :)

> What i like: it boots fast and it mounts my music on my nas without
> any trouble whereas with systemd you have to use raspi-config to let
> waiting for the network to become active.
> 
> HND
^

I do retain the copyright on that HND, man! You know you owe me
0.01 pence every time you use it, right? :D

HND (c)

KatolaZ

-- 
[ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ --- GLUG Catania -- Freaknet Medialab ]
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[DNG] Devuan on RPi2

[info at smallinnovations.nl]

I spended today some time to setup a Devuan version from my webradio on 
a RPi2 and have 3 remarks.


- had to add module snd_bcm2835 manually
- had to add alsa manually
- icecast2 asks for configuration parameters but does not save them 
(is most likely not Devuan related but ask here to be sure)


More people this experience?

What i like: it boots fast and it mounts my music on my nas without any 
trouble whereas with systemd you have to use raspi-config to let waiting 
for the network to become active.


HND

Nick
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Re: [DNG] Brief OpenRC/Jessie Discussion on the linux-elitists lists

[dev]

On 05/16/2016 05:12 AM, Jaromil wrote:

To all those who think this and other similar approaches may
invalidate the need of our fork: please consider we are not just
forking Debian because of systemd, but because the people who have
taken over the leadership of that distro have betrayed its mandate,
shown no respect of its Constitution and offer no reliability anymore
for any reasonable professional use of Debian.


Very well spoken. Debian leadership has demonstrated it's disinterest in 
remaining "Free". There is another motive driving Debian development now 
and Systemd will end up being the core of Debian. To remove it will only 
mean uninstalling the entirety of the distro itself.

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[DNG] apt pinning vs. Default-Release (was: Dng Digest, Vol 20, Issue 83)

[Florian Zieboll]

On Sun, 15 May 2016 22:54:33 -0400
". fsmithred"  wrote:

> Florian,
> 
> Thanks! I tried pinning backports like that a few weeks ago, and it
> didn't work. I thought it was due to changes in the way pinning is
> done. I don't think I ever would have figured that one out on my own.
> Does the pinning work properly if you remove 00defaultrelease? I
> can't test this right now, but I will do it in a few days.
> 
> -fsr
> 


Hallo fsr, 

I'll reply to the list as well, hope that's fine... Yes indeed, the
[APT::Default-Release "jessie";] line seems to suppress apt pinning. My
first thought had been, that amprolla / the merging workflow somehow
interferes with pinning, but after a second of alarm I verified that my
desktop, which runs a similar configuration, has only manually selected
backports installed.

I also had tried to get backports from another mirror and pin by
"origin", to no avail. Further experiments fell prey to the lucky fact
that I remembered (and found) your apt related mail ;)

IIU apt_perferences(5) correctly, the "Default-Release" preference was
intended to play together with a "NotAutomatic: yes" entry in the
repository's release file (see section "APT's Default Priority
Assignments"), but I'm still not sure if its impact on pinning is a bug
or not.

Florian
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Re: [DNG] Unofficial Devuan Jessie Beta Live Minimal

[David Hare]

I get the reluctance to mix dists. It's also not good to patch sytem
components without good reason (there was in that case)

However, live-* has always been a special case, designed to be
back-compatible and not have other "unstable deps". They even said
they won't support anyone using older versions.

Note newer (e.g. backport) kernels need newer live-* (aufs was dropped
for overlay)

D


On 16 May 2016 at 13:34, KatolaZ  wrote:
> On Mon, May 16, 2016 at 01:15:40PM +0100, David Hare wrote:
>> KatolaZ, FYI, I noticed your iso has empty /dev and a patched
>> /usr/share/initramfs-tools/init (and uses an older
>> refracta-snapshot)..
>>
>> That patch was a workaround in refracta-snapshot for bug(s) which only
>> last week got officially noted. The original file is still there but
>> renamed (this only affected live systems).
>>
>> https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=823856
>> https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=823069
>>
>> The problem *seems* sorted with the latest live-boot and
>> live-bootiinitramfs-tools  in unstable, although the original cause
>> appears to be a change in util-linux 2.25 ..
>>
>> It was anyway previously recommended to use live-* from unstable, even
>> if you run stable
>>
>
> Thanks a lot for the report David.
>
> If this is not a massive issue (i.e., if it does not introduce
> problems to the users of the minimal images), I would like the minimal
> images to use exactly the same packages we have in the repo, so that
> if it's a Jessie live, it would use only packages from Jessie. This is
> just to avoid dependency problems while building those images (and, to
> be honest, I have always had a personal idiosyncracy against mixing
> different repos...).
>
> I am now in the process of freezing and pushing the work I have done
> so far with the current version that uses refractasnapshot. Then I
> will produce an updated set of images which include much more stuff
> for the same price (96 MB of RAM, less than 250 MB of space).
>
> At the moment I am also considering other alternatives, e.g. using
> live-build on a debootsrapped chroot. This would save a good amount of
> space on the minimal image, would simplify the whole process, and
> would make it easier to customise things and to produce minimal live
> images also for the testing branch (ascii). But it will probably
> require a few days of spare time (or a couple of dreamless nights...)
> :)
>
> TTYL
>
> KatolaZ
>
> --
> [ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ --- GLUG Catania -- Freaknet Medialab ]
> [ me [at] katolaz.homeunix.net -- http://katolaz.homeunix.net -- ]
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Re: [DNG] Unofficial Devuan Jessie Beta Live Minimal

[KatolaZ]

On Mon, May 16, 2016 at 01:15:40PM +0100, David Hare wrote:
> KatolaZ, FYI, I noticed your iso has empty /dev and a patched
> /usr/share/initramfs-tools/init (and uses an older
> refracta-snapshot)..
> 
> That patch was a workaround in refracta-snapshot for bug(s) which only
> last week got officially noted. The original file is still there but
> renamed (this only affected live systems).
> 
> https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=823856
> https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=823069
> 
> The problem *seems* sorted with the latest live-boot and
> live-bootiinitramfs-tools  in unstable, although the original cause
> appears to be a change in util-linux 2.25 ..
> 
> It was anyway previously recommended to use live-* from unstable, even
> if you run stable
> 

Thanks a lot for the report David.

If this is not a massive issue (i.e., if it does not introduce
problems to the users of the minimal images), I would like the minimal
images to use exactly the same packages we have in the repo, so that
if it's a Jessie live, it would use only packages from Jessie. This is
just to avoid dependency problems while building those images (and, to
be honest, I have always had a personal idiosyncracy against mixing
different repos...).

I am now in the process of freezing and pushing the work I have done
so far with the current version that uses refractasnapshot. Then I
will produce an updated set of images which include much more stuff
for the same price (96 MB of RAM, less than 250 MB of space).

At the moment I am also considering other alternatives, e.g. using
live-build on a debootsrapped chroot. This would save a good amount of
space on the minimal image, would simplify the whole process, and
would make it easier to customise things and to produce minimal live
images also for the testing branch (ascii). But it will probably
require a few days of spare time (or a couple of dreamless nights...)
:)

TTYL

KatolaZ

-- 
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Re: [DNG] Unofficial Devuan Jessie Beta Live Minimal

[David Hare]

KatolaZ, FYI, I noticed your iso has empty /dev and a patched
/usr/share/initramfs-tools/init (and uses an older
refracta-snapshot)..

That patch was a workaround in refracta-snapshot for bug(s) which only
last week got officially noted. The original file is still there but
renamed (this only affected live systems).

https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=823856
https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=823069

The problem *seems* sorted with the latest live-boot and
live-bootiinitramfs-tools  in unstable, although the original cause
appears to be a change in util-linux 2.25 ..

It was anyway previously recommended to use live-* from unstable, even
if you run stable

D



D

On 15 May 2016 at 20:54, KatolaZ  wrote:
> On Sun, May 15, 2016 at 03:22:21PM -0400, Steve Litt wrote:
>> On Sat, 14 May 2016 17:09:34 -0400
>> ". fsmithred"  wrote:
>>
>> > Zenity is somewhat of a dependency hog. In Refracta, we abandoned it a
>> > couple years ago and replaced it with Yad.
>>
>> fsmithred,
>>
>> Thanks for reminding me of Zenity, and informing me of Yad. These
>> programs enable my shellscripts to present a GUI face to the user,
>> without all the scaffolding you need to do in PyGTk and the like.
>>
>> Given the nature of the average Devuan user, this could be a pretty
>> important capability.
>>
>
> I believe the "average" Devuan user would most probably not use a
> minimal live image anyway :) I have checked and indeed zenity is a
> dependency hell, which would install 194 more packages (we have less
> than 360 packages in total in the minimal Devuan image...) and would
> require about 300MB of additiona space (the unsquashed fs amounts to
> about 680 MB, in total). In a word, it looks like a bloat, at least in
> the context of *minimal* live images.
>
> I am working instead to include a runlevel with support for espeakout
> and brltty, which will require just a few megabytes and will be far
> more useful than zenity.
>
> HND
>
> KatolaZ
>
> --
> [ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ --- GLUG Catania -- Freaknet Medialab ]
> [ me [at] katolaz.homeunix.net -- http://katolaz.homeunix.net -- ]
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Re: [DNG] Brief OpenRC/Jessie Discussion on the linux-elitists lists

[Edward Bartolo]

Hi,

I think, it is not about the term "linuxmafia" offending our feelings
but rather the bad connotations it brings with Linux. Linux is exactly
the opposite of oppression and abuse: Linux is about freedom.

Edward

On 16/05/2016, Jaromil  wrote:
> On Sun, 15 May 2016, Steve Litt wrote:
>> Rick has held the linuxmafia.com domain since at least 1999:
>
> thanks for the explanation Steve. I'm airing a personal irritation
> which is almost two decades old, as I used linuxmafia.org back when I
> was using Slackware and Debian didn't even existed. I'm glad at least
> the .org doesn't exist anymore. I can't perceive any good connotation
> of that term, just mystifications by people who don't know what it
> means and I wish them they'll never know.
>
> ciao
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Re: [DNG] About subject lines

[emninger]

Am Mon, 16 May 2016 10:54:45 +
schrieb Didier Kryn :

>  Cheers emniner,
> 
>  My exasperation isn't that much against the authors of emails
> with bad subject, but rather against the junk software which produces
> that (I'm curious about by which mechanism). Moderating them out
> wouldn't ban the authors at all, but merely force them to resend with
> a sensible subject.
> 
>  Didier

Oh, i do not think it's a software problem, at least for me. I receive
the digest, which necessarily has that subjectline. And replying one
should put in by "hand" the correct subjectline as well as the author.

In any case, i understood well your intent and i agree with. No
harm ... :)

Cheers.
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Re: [DNG] Brief OpenRC/Jessie Discussion on the linux-elitists lists

[Jaromil]

On Sun, 15 May 2016, Steve Litt wrote:
> Rick has held the linuxmafia.com domain since at least 1999:

thanks for the explanation Steve. I'm airing a personal irritation
which is almost two decades old, as I used linuxmafia.org back when I
was using Slackware and Debian didn't even existed. I'm glad at least
the .org doesn't exist anymore. I can't perceive any good connotation
of that term, just mystifications by people who don't know what it
means and I wish them they'll never know.

ciao
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Re: [DNG] Brief OpenRC/Jessie Discussion on the linux-elitists lists

[Edward Bartolo]

Hi,

Jaromil wrote:
<< some of us are from places in which that word means prevarication,
violence, misery and corruption. I've never been entertained by such a
name, not even when it was about slackware packages. very bad taste.
>>

+Infinity

Edward

On 16/05/2016, Jaromil  wrote:
> On Mon, 16 May 2016, emnin...@riseup.net wrote:
>
>> As for the rest, i'd be interested in what you think about the
>> content of that discussion.
>
> I think it minimizes the problem systemd brings to Debian and the
> problem the current Debian leadership has with its own constituency.
> I sincerely wish the remedy of installing openrc and pinning systemd
> would work, but I'm sure it won't on the mid-long term.
>
> To all those who think this and other similar approaches may
> invalidate the need of our fork: please consider we are not just
> forking Debian because of systemd, but because the people who have
> taken over the leadership of that distro have betrayed its mandate,
> shown no respect of its Constitution and offer no reliability anymore
> for any reasonable professional use of Debian.
>
> I'm talking about the hooligans and politicians who are using systemd
> as an occasion to take over and bully away disagreement, those who
> Bruce Perens defines the "anal-retentive policy wonks who believe they
> only make the distribution for themselves and have (perhaps without
> intending to) systematically marginalized Debian and made the project
> a whore to Ubuntu."
> https://linux.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=5852295=48188823
>
> ciao
>
>
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Re: [DNG] Brief OpenRC/Jessie Discussion on the linux-elitists lists

[Jaromil]

On Mon, 16 May 2016, emnin...@riseup.net wrote:

> As for the rest, i'd be interested in what you think about the
> content of that discussion.

I think it minimizes the problem systemd brings to Debian and the
problem the current Debian leadership has with its own constituency.
I sincerely wish the remedy of installing openrc and pinning systemd
would work, but I'm sure it won't on the mid-long term.

To all those who think this and other similar approaches may
invalidate the need of our fork: please consider we are not just
forking Debian because of systemd, but because the people who have
taken over the leadership of that distro have betrayed its mandate,
shown no respect of its Constitution and offer no reliability anymore
for any reasonable professional use of Debian.

I'm talking about the hooligans and politicians who are using systemd
as an occasion to take over and bully away disagreement, those who
Bruce Perens defines the "anal-retentive policy wonks who believe they
only make the distribution for themselves and have (perhaps without
intending to) systematically marginalized Debian and made the project
a whore to Ubuntu."
https://linux.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=5852295=48188823

ciao


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Re: [DNG] Brief OpenRC/Jessie Discussion on the linux-elitists lists

[KatolaZ]

On Mon, May 16, 2016 at 11:39:38AM +0200, emnin...@riseup.net wrote:
> As for me, i understand those who are hurted by the use of the term
> mafia (one half of my family is from "there" ;) ), but i also
> understand the may be improper but innocent use of that term in
> a different social and cultural context. 
> 
> May be it's a good way to try to understand the reasons of the "other"
> before getting offended? At least that's what i think is necessary in
> a global world (and not only there).

Believe, there is nothing that can offend me :)

> 
> As for the rest, i'd be interested in what you think about the content
> of that discussion.
> 

About the link to the without-systemd.org wiki? Well, it has been
floating around in this ML for about 18 months now... :)

Concerning OpenRC, I personally don't care. The most important thing
is to provide an alternative able to contain the damage done by
systemd, which is eating up all the low-lever userspace. I believe I'd
probably remain with sysvinit anyway, since I have never felt the need
for anything more than that (maybe for something less, instead).

Devuan is giving people the freedom to choose, and this is why I am
here.

PDSCE

KatolaZ

-- 
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[ me [at] katolaz.homeunix.net -- http://katolaz.homeunix.net -- ]
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Re: [DNG] About subject lines

[Didier Kryn]

Le 16/05/2016 11:31, emnin...@riseup.net a écrit :

Am Sun, 15 May 2016 21:45:10 +
schrieb Steve Litt :


You're absolutely right. It was just one or two mails that "escaped"
before i had checked, if all was correct. I wouldn't disagree, to
moderate them out.

My only excuse is, that i'm on a machine in this moment, which is -
still - not really set up, like i would like (transition to
devuan underway here, sometimes the connections crash etc. and then i
have to use a tablet;) ).

I hope you won't mind and you will accept my excuses.

Cheers & thanks for your patience.



Cheers emniner,

My exasperation isn't that much against the authors of emails with 
bad subject, but rather against the junk software which produces that 
(I'm curious about by which mechanism). Moderating them out wouldn't ban 
the authors at all, but merely force them to resend with a sensible subject.


Didier

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Re: [DNG] Brief OpenRC/Jessie Discussion on the linux-elitists lists

[emninger]

As for me, i understand those who are hurted by the use of the term
mafia (one half of my family is from "there" ;) ), but i also
understand the may be improper but innocent use of that term in
a different social and cultural context. 

May be it's a good way to try to understand the reasons of the "other"
before getting offended? At least that's what i think is necessary in
a global world (and not only there).

As for the rest, i'd be interested in what you think about the content
of that discussion.

Cheers

 
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[DNG] About subject lines

[emninger]

Am Sun, 15 May 2016 21:45:10 +
schrieb Steve Litt :

[ . . . ]

> Hi emninger,
> 
> Could you please alter email subjects to reflect what you're actually
> replying to? It helps those of us receiving the message to track
> threads (client threading doesn't always work as expected) and to
> search.

[ . . . ]

Hi Steve!

You're absolutely right. It was just one or two mails that "escaped"
before i had checked, if all was correct. I wouldn't disagree, to
moderate them out.

My only excuse is, that i'm on a machine in this moment, which is -
still - not really set up, like i would like (transition to
devuan underway here, sometimes the connections crash etc. and then i
have to use a tablet;) ).

I hope you won't mind and you will accept my excuses.

Cheers & thanks for your patience.

PS. You didn't answer if it would be a reasonable effort to create a
JWM based desktop as an option for devuan ... :)
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Re: [DNG] Brief OpenRC/Jessie Discussion on the linux-elitists lists

[Adam Borowski]

On Mon, May 16, 2016 at 08:03:58AM +0100, KatolaZ wrote:
> On Sun, May 15, 2016 at 08:38:26PM -0400, Steve Litt wrote:
> > On Mon, 16 May 2016 01:18:34 +0200
> > Florian Zieboll  wrote:
> > > On Sun, 15 May 2016 23:22:07 +0200
> > > Jaromil  wrote:
> > > > prevarication, violence, misery and corruption  
> > 
> > Let me say it succinctly: I think Rick probably meant something like
> > "toughguys" or "mob" rather than anything criminal.
> 
> That's probably because Hollywood has transformed the term "mafia" in
> a piece of the American folklore, and in a cool, easy stereotype for
> Sicily and Sicilians. If you were born where the real mafia has killed
> thousand of real people with real guns and real bombs, and has
> strangled entire sectors of society with real racketing and real
> mobbing, you would probably agree that linux and mafia have very
> little in common, and you would feel the same bitter disgust many of
> us have felt since the website was announced, back in the days.

It's not the first time this happened.  For example, the word "pirate",
originally a bandit and murderer (and in places like Somalia, still current!)
yet nowadays its more widespread meaning is "culture spreading activist"[1]
(not just copyright, also, eg, radio), a term of pride for many of us.

[1]. The MAFIAA[2] defines that differently.
[2]. And here, we're close to the original meaning.

-- 
A tit a day keeps the vet away.
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Re: [DNG] Brief OpenRC/Jessie Discussion on the linux-elitists lists

[KatolaZ]

On Sun, May 15, 2016 at 08:38:26PM -0400, Steve Litt wrote:
> On Mon, 16 May 2016 01:18:34 +0200
> Florian Zieboll  wrote:
> 
> > On Sun, 15 May 2016 23:22:07 +0200
> > Jaromil  wrote:
> > 
> > > prevarication, violence, misery and corruption  
> > 
> > Depending on one's personal history,
> 
> Let me say it succinctly: I think Rick probably meant something like
> "toughguys" or "mob" rather than anything criminal.
> 
> If I had a time machine, I'd go back to when he was thinking of buying
> that domain (they cost $100 back then) and try to convince him not to
> buy it. But of course that's hindsight. Before Jaromil's post I'd
> never thought about that domain in any negative way. 
> 

That's probably because Hollywood has transformed the term "mafia" in
a piece of the American folklore, and in a cool, easy stereotype for
Sicily and Sicilians. If you were born where the real mafia has killed
thousand of real people with real guns and real bombs, and has
strangled entire sectors of society with real racketing and real
mobbing, you would probably agree that linux and mafia have very
little in common, and you would feel the same bitter disgust many of
us have felt since the website was announced, back in the days.

HND

KatolaZ

-- 
[ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ --- GLUG Catania -- Freaknet Medialab ]
[ me [at] katolaz.homeunix.net -- http://katolaz.homeunix.net -- ]
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Re: [DNG] Dng Digest, Vol 20, Issue 78

[Didier Kryn]

Le 15/05/2016 21:15, Steve Litt a écrit :

On Sat, 14 May 2016 23:00:36 +0200
 wrote:


Am Sat, 14 May 2016 17:07:06 +
schrieb Didier Kryn :

Hi emninger,

Could you please alter email subjects to reflect what you're actually
replying to? It helps those of us receiving the message to track
threads (client threading doesn't always work as expected) and to
search.

Your responses are so correct and succinct that it would be a shame if
they weren't searchable by title.

And while we're on the subject, thanks for trimming everything except
what you're responding to. A lot of digest users don't do that, making
their replies difficult or impossible to work with.

SteveT



+1

This is exasperating. Maybe emails with this subject are the kind 
of thing which could be automatically "moderated" out.


Didier

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