Re: [DNG] [D OFFLIST NG] Larcenous mail threads.

[Edward Bartolo]

Hi,

Steve Litt wrote:
<<
Ignore doesn't mean insult. It doesn't mean get all sad. It means not
respond, and don't let it get
under your skin. And you need to understand that this list is neither
a C list nor a Rapid Learning list, so you need to pick and choose
only your best discoveries and questions for the list. Other questions
are pretty easy via experimentation plus web searches.
>>

"And you need to understand that this list is neither a C list".
But it was this list that went into attack mode. Therefore, it made,
and still makes sense, to show this thread what I am doing.

"Ignore doesn't mean insult. It doesn't mean get all sad."
Ignore means accepting the insult as the truth. That is the problem
about that attitude.

So, what I wrote, is an insult, while "cognitively deficient", more or
less the same meaning as moron, imbecile, idiot, whatever, IS NOT?!
Don't you see, this is an unfair evaluation? Why should anyone
evaluate words according to who is saying them? Maybe, Joel Roth has a
prominent position in the project, I don't know. In this little pebble
of a country I live in, we have a saying that goes something like
this: "It is not what you know, but who you know that counts!"

In this list, whatever I do, I am always to blame. This is giving me
the impression it is my name that is to blame, not what I did. Sorry
for the capital letters, I KICKED BACK which should be normal in such
circumstances, why are you expecting me to "turn the other cheek"?

Sorry, the criticism I am receiving doesn't follow logically,
notwithstanding I can do many things with a computer the majority of
people consider only fit for gurus. My code repeatedly works reliably,
and yet my most important intellectual capability, "reason", is
lacking.

Edward
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Re: [DNG] Slow network startup [was: Systemd discussion on the Samba mailing list]

[Go Linux]

On Fri, 7/15/16, Emiliano Marini  wrote:

 Subject: Re: [DNG] Systemd discussion on the Samba mailing list
 To: "Simon Hobson" 
 Cc: "dng" 
 Date: Friday, July 15, 2016, 6:24 PM
>  
>  Well, either case is embarrasing. If the network is up after the user 
> logins, that's ridiculous, even Windows start his services before the login 
> screen. If NM, thus the network, is *slow* to start, that's  worse! Isn't 
> supposed systemd would speed up the boot process?
>  
>


My Devuan wired network takes maybe 10-15 seconds to come up after I come out 
of suspend.  What's up with that.  It was always ready on Squeeze and Wheezy.  
Now I twiddle my thumbs and wait until wicd wakes up. It's really annoying . . 
. 

Any ideas why it's doing that?

golinux
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Re: [DNG] Need for documentation (golinux)

[Go Linux]

On Fri, 7/15/16, Robert Storey  wrote:

 Subject: Re: [DNG] Need for documentation (golinux)
 To: dng@lists.dyne.org
 Date: Friday, July 15, 2016, 8:34 PM
>  
> I think I understand the issue well enough to sum it up nicely, so if no one 
> objects, should I just go ahead and file a bug report? If we're about to dump 
> Slim for lxdm or lightdm or whatever, I needn't bother, but if we plan to 
> keep Slim for release 1.0, I'd like to see the issue addressed. Looks like an 
> easy enough thing to fix - all we need is to change the login screen graphic 
> to document the available > options. I think I can write up the proposed 
> documentation change myself and then submit it.
> 
> I have not yet used Devuan's bug reporting system - I just looked at the site 
> now and I signed up for > a git account. This this is a Slim issue, should I 
> report it here:
> 
> https://git.devuan.org/devuan/slim/issues
> 
> Please tell me if I'm doing this right. If no objections within next 24 
> hours, I'll proceed.
> 
> Thank you, and apologies for my inexperience with git.
> 
> cheers,
> Robert
> 



Hi Robert,

Thanks for offering to help.   I hadn't seen Dima's slim project before.  This 
is the one that I've worked on with hellekin:

https://git.devuan.org/devuan-packages/slim/issues

It took me a while to find it.  There was just an upgrade to gitlab and now I'm 
lost again

It won't let me edit in place like I can in editors.  Instead it said it 
downloaded something but damned if I can find it.  Maybe someone can point me 
where to look.

git is a real challenge.  And IIRC placement of elements on the slim login 
screen is also.  Good luck!  

golinux
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Re: [DNG] Need for documentation (golinux)

[Robert Storey]

I think I understand the issue well enough to sum it up nicely, so if no
one objects, should I just go ahead and file a bug report? If we're about
to dump Slim for lxdm or lightdm or whatever, I needn't bother, but if we
plan to keep Slim for release 1.0, I'd like to see the issue addressed.
Looks like an easy enough thing to fix - all we need is to change the login
screen graphic to document the available options. I think I can write up
the proposed documentation change myself and then submit it.

I have not yet used Devuan's bug reporting system - I just looked at the
site now and I signed up for a git account. This this is a Slim issue,
should I report it here:

https://git.devuan.org/devuan/slim/issues

Please tell me if I'm doing this right. If no objections within next 24
hours, I'll proceed.

Thank you, and apologies for my inexperience with git.

cheers,
Robert
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Re: [DNG] Need for documentation

[aitor_czr]

On 07/14/2016 09:23 PM, Jaromil  wrote:

Now, i suspect the cause... And i added*aufs*  and*squashfs*
>support to the kernel.

if they weren't in already, I'm pretty sure that was the problem.



Bingo !!

Solved :)

  Aitor.

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Re: [DNG] Systemd discussion on the Samba mailing list

[Emiliano Marini]

Well, either case is embarrasing. If the network is up after the user
logins, that's ridiculous, even Windows start his services before the login
screen. If NM, thus the network, is *slow* to start, that's worse! Isn't
supposed systemd would speed up the boot process?

This is worse than the "kill user's background processes after logout" case.

Thanks for sharing.

On Fri, Jul 15, 2016 at 6:22 PM, Simon Hobson 
wrote:

>
> On 15 Jul 2016, at 18:10, Emiliano Marini 
> wrote:
>
> > Are you serious network isn't started before user login? This is... You
> can't be serious. Link please?
>
> Ah, I'd mis-rembered the thread. The frontend was consistently not
> starting.
>
> http://lists.mythtv.org/pipermail/mythtv-users/2016-July/387810.html
>
> > For me on Mythbuntu 16.04 it looks like the network is slow to start
> because
> > the network interface details are not set by the NetworkManager software
> > until the user-login is complete.
>
> Now whether that's because it doesn't start until user login, or because
> it's been set to auto-login at start and the network manager is just slow I
> don't know. But it's fail (by some definition of fail) that it's even
> starting login before the network is up (by whatever definition of up you
> use).
>
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Re: [DNG] Systemd discussion on the Samba mailing list

[Simon Hobson]

On 15 Jul 2016, at 18:10, Emiliano Marini  wrote:

> Are you serious network isn't started before user login? This is... You can't 
> be serious. Link please?

Ah, I'd mis-rembered the thread. The frontend was consistently not starting.

http://lists.mythtv.org/pipermail/mythtv-users/2016-July/387810.html

> For me on Mythbuntu 16.04 it looks like the network is slow to start because 
> the network interface details are not set by the NetworkManager software 
> until the user-login is complete.

Now whether that's because it doesn't start until user login, or because it's 
been set to auto-login at start and the network manager is just slow I don't 
know. But it's fail (by some definition of fail) that it's even starting login 
before the network is up (by whatever definition of up you use).

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[DNG] devuan image installed on eoma68-a20 computer card

[Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton]

hiya folks,

i just managed to get the cubieboard's image unpacked and installed on
an EOMA68-A20 computer card
https://files.devuan.org/devuan_jessie_beta/

it was pretty straightforward, involved losetup -P, and it was nice to
see that there's a very minimalist base of packages preinstalled in
the image (as opposed to an entire desktop GUI).

i'm currently installing task-xfce4-desktop, i'll let you know how
that gets on, but in the meantime where's the best place to let people
know that i'd like to include a Devuan Computer Card on the crowd
funding page (which is live now btw!)
http://crowdsupply.com/eoma68/micro-desktop

also i'm looking for some good name suggestions, the Parabola version
is called "Libre Tea Computer Card" - it would be nice to have
something for devuan.

l.

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Re: [DNG] C Obfuscated code: a virtue or a vice?

[Arnt Gulbrandsen]

Hendrik Boom writes:
And he's one of the really big men of computer science -- he has to 
bend down to go through doorways. 


I've met him once, at a conference, and two things struck me...

1. His eyes looked intensely alive and intelligent. His eyes looked at me 
as if a brain the size of a small galaxy was parsing, studying and 
evaluating whatever I said.


2. He asked a stupid question.

It's comforting in a way. If even someone like that can ask a stupid 
question...


Arnt

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Re: [DNG] C Obfuscated code: a virtue or a vice?

[Hendrik Boom]

On Fri, Jul 15, 2016 at 09:12:21PM +0100, KatolaZ wrote:
> On Fri, Jul 15, 2016 at 03:37:58PM -0400, Peter Olson wrote:
> 
> [cut]
> 
> > 
> > I'm a fan of Donald Knuth as well.  My funny story is that when I was in 
> > college, I got an offer from Addison-Wesley to preorder the seven volume 
> > set "The Art of Computer Programming" for the low. low price of $119.  It's 
> > now more than 40 years later and volumes 5, 6, and 7 are still missing :-)  
> > I'm glad I didn't take the offer :)  On the other hand it is terrifically 
> > cool that he got so frustrated with the mechanics of typesetting that he 
> > developed TeX.
> 
> And METAFONT, for that matter, and the language (WEB) he used to write
> TeX and METAFONT. In my mind I have always compared Donald Knuth to a
> chimera with the head of Dante Alighieri, the body of Johannes
> Gutenberg, and the arms and legs of a medieval blacksmith.

And he's one of the really big men of computer science -- he has to 
bend down to go through doorways. 

-- hendrik

> 
> That's an amazing man.
> 
> HND
> 
> KatolaZ
> 
> -- 
> [ ~.,_  Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ - GLUGCT -- Freaknet Medialab  ]  
> [ "+.  katolaz [at] freaknet.org --- katolaz [at] yahoo.it  ]
> [   @)   http://kalos.mine.nu ---  Devuan GNU + Linux User  ]
> [ @@)  http://maths.qmul.ac.uk/~vnicosia --  GPG: 0B5F062F  ] 
> [ (@@@)  Twitter: @KatolaZ - skype: katolaz -- github: KatolaZ  ]
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Re: [DNG] C Obfuscated code: a virtue or a vice?

[KatolaZ]

On Fri, Jul 15, 2016 at 03:37:58PM -0400, Peter Olson wrote:

[cut]

> 
> I'm a fan of Donald Knuth as well.  My funny story is that when I was in 
> college, I got an offer from Addison-Wesley to preorder the seven volume set 
> "The Art of Computer Programming" for the low. low price of $119.  It's now 
> more than 40 years later and volumes 5, 6, and 7 are still missing :-)  I'm 
> glad I didn't take the offer :)  On the other hand it is terrifically cool 
> that he got so frustrated with the mechanics of typesetting that he developed 
> TeX.

And METAFONT, for that matter, and the language (WEB) he used to write
TeX and METAFONT. In my mind I have always compared Donald Knuth to a
chimera with the head of Dante Alighieri, the body of Johannes
Gutenberg, and the arms and legs of a medieval blacksmith.

That's an amazing man.

HND

KatolaZ

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[ "+.  katolaz [at] freaknet.org --- katolaz [at] yahoo.it  ]
[   @)   http://kalos.mine.nu ---  Devuan GNU + Linux User  ]
[ @@)  http://maths.qmul.ac.uk/~vnicosia --  GPG: 0B5F062F  ] 
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Re: [DNG] C Obfuscated code: a virtue or a vice?

[Ron]

On Fri, 15 Jul 2016 11:12:26 +0200
Jaromil  wrote:

> but yes, its definitely not polite nor useful to obfuscate code that
> people uses. 

No need to obfuscate when you program in Iverson's APL  ;-3)
 
Cheers,
 
Ron.
-- 
There are three kinds of men:
 Those that learn by reading,
  The few who learn by observation,
  and the rest who have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.

   -- http://www.olgiati-in-paraguay.org --
 
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Re: [DNG] C Obfuscated code: a virtue or a vice?

[Hendrik Boom]

On Fri, Jul 15, 2016 at 03:37:58PM -0400, Peter Olson wrote:
> > On July 15, 2016 at 5:12 AM Jaromil  wrote:
> >
> > On Fri, 15 Jul 2016, Peter Olson wrote:
> > 
> > > You misunderstand what the IOCCC is about.  It's a game.  Nobody
> > > trying to write useful code will do anything like what IOCCC writes.
> > 
> > well, I even argue is software-art :^) back 15 years ago I facilitated
> > the inclusion of some IOCCC entries in this exibition originally shown
> > at the MAK in Frankfurt, which then went pretty much around the world
> > http://www.digitalcraft.org/iloveyou/c_code.htm
> > 
> > but yes, its definitely not polite nor useful to obfuscate code that
> > people uses. to the contrary, I think literate programming is the way
> 
> I'm a fan of Donald Knuth as well.  My funny story is that when I was in 
> college, I got an offer from Addison-Wesley to preorder the seven volume set 
> "The Art of Computer Programming" for the low. low price of $119.  It's now 
> more than 40 years later and volumes 5, 6, and 7 are still missing :-)  I'm 
> glad I didn't take the offer :)  On the other hand it is terrifically cool 
> that he got so frustrated with the mechanics of typesetting that he developed 
> TeX.

I'm still waiting for volume 7.  It was supposed to have some 
interesting stuff on recursive coroutines. 

-- hendrik
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Re: [DNG] C Obfuscated code: a virtue or a vice?

[Peter Olson]

> On July 15, 2016 at 5:12 AM Jaromil  wrote:
>
> On Fri, 15 Jul 2016, Peter Olson wrote:
> 
> > You misunderstand what the IOCCC is about.  It's a game.  Nobody
> > trying to write useful code will do anything like what IOCCC writes.
> 
> well, I even argue is software-art :^) back 15 years ago I facilitated
> the inclusion of some IOCCC entries in this exibition originally shown
> at the MAK in Frankfurt, which then went pretty much around the world
> http://www.digitalcraft.org/iloveyou/c_code.htm
> 
> but yes, its definitely not polite nor useful to obfuscate code that
> people uses. to the contrary, I think literate programming is the way

I'm a fan of Donald Knuth as well.  My funny story is that when I was in 
college, I got an offer from Addison-Wesley to preorder the seven volume set 
"The Art of Computer Programming" for the low. low price of $119.  It's now 
more than 40 years later and volumes 5, 6, and 7 are still missing :-)  I'm 
glad I didn't take the offer :)  On the other hand it is terrifically cool that 
he got so frustrated with the mechanics of typesetting that he developed TeX.

Peter Olson
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Re: [DNG] Need for documentation (Steve Litt)

[emninger]

Am Fri, 15 Jul 2016 04:43:40 +
schrieb Robert Storey :

> Thanks for posting this, it's an issue I wanted to raise but glad
> someone else brought it up first.

I'd like to propose the use of lxdm (as a graphical login manager).
It's only insignificantly heavvier than slim but it offers all the
options cleanly you're looking for.

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Re: [DNG] Need for documentation (golinux)

[Steve Litt]

On Fri, 15 Jul 2016 12:51:11 + (UTC)
Go Linux  wrote:

>
> 
> Obviously, I didn't try what was suggested in the readme . . . don't
> like to reboot or even logout.  I'm hoping that someone with more
> chops than I have should be able to get those commands working.

Last night I took my Devuan VM, and into the login screen typed special
usernames "halt" and "reboot" each with the **root** password. Halt
halted the VM, reboot rebooted it. I typed in special username
"console", which put a little tiny graphical console on the
screen, asking my username and password, and allowing no other work
than console work. So the key information in this case is special users
"reboot" and "halt" work only if when queried for the password, you
type in the root password.

> 
> I suggest you file an issue under the slim package and assign it to
> hellekin.
> 
> And I totally agree that there should be some text suggestions on the
> login screen perhaps to a revised README if nothing else.

Yes! This is a must. The way I see it, if the user ever gets to a place
where he says "where the hell do I go from here?" or "so what do I do
now?", it's a big developer fail.

A few minutes ago, while using the Audacious music player, I noticed
that a button with two crossed curvy arrows was depressed. I suspected
that meant "shuffle", but didn't know for sure, so I hovered the cursor
over the button. Nothing happened. I guess the developer was just too
busy to put any tooltip text, and figured if I didn't care enough to
web-research the meaning of the crossed curvy arrow hieroglyphic, I
didn't care enough to use his program.

Back in the day there was at least some excuse for lack of
discoverability. You had only 24 rows of 80 characters for your
prompts, your input fields, your form title, etc. Sometimes it was
difficult to find the space to include "Ctrl+Enter"=Transmit,
"Esc=Cancel", "F5=List". With today's scrollbars, there's no excuse at
all other than laziness or elitism for lack of discoverability.

Some might argue that "we bend over backward to coddle the user,
thereby complicating the programming." That's not what I'm talking
about. I'm not talking about a fuzzy logic routine to guess what the
user wants, or a particularly ingenious widget for the user to use. I'm
simply advocating that the programmer be presented with his possible
actions at this point. That's not coddling: I was doing that in 1984 on
VT-52s and VT-100s.

As long as I'm on a rant, let me include the somewhat related subject
of feedback. When the user clicks a button and nothing changes, that's
a big developer fail. Did the app "hear" the click? Should the
user click it again? Are we hung? We just don't know.

The VERY FIRST command executed in response to any user action should
be to very visibly change something, so the user knows he's been heard.
Don't depend on the cursor changing: That doesn't always work. Change
the screen in an obvious and informative way. Check out the way I wrote
the compile script for the 2nd edition of "Manager's Guide to Technical
Troubleshooting":

=
inform_begin   $mainname.pdf
rm $mainname.tex
rm $mainname.aux
rm $mainname.pdf
rm $mainname.log
rm $mainname.dvi
lyx --export pdf4 $mainname.lyx
if [ -f $mainname.pdf ]; then
inform_success $mainname.pdf
else
inform_failure $mainname.pdf
fi
=

The book's compile script is hotkeyed to run when I press Ctrl+Shift+G.
The very first thing it does is perform function inform_begin, which
throws a 2 second timeout little dialog on the screen saying "I heard
you." If I were coding this for release, I'd have also put the text
"this dialog disappears in 2 seconds" to prevent user confusion. And
because the dialog box is run in the background, other processing
continues without regard to the dialog box.

The microsecond I press Ctrl+Shift+G, this dialog appears. Even if I
have 27 Firefox windows open, each with its own script. Even if
something later in the script will fail. The user will never wonder
whether he didn't click hard enough, or whether the focus was wrong. He
*knows* his click got heard.

Back in the 24x80 days, or heaven forbid the days of repeatedly looping
questions displayed by printf(), it was difficult to prevent user
confusion. Today only the laziest and most elitist developers confuse
the user.

 
SteveT

Steve Litt 
July 2016 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques
 of the Successful Technologist
http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques
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Re: [DNG] Systemd discussion on the Samba mailing list

[Emiliano Marini]

Are you serious network isn't started before user login? This is... You
can't be serious. Link please?

On Wed, Jul 13, 2016 at 6:59 PM, Simon Hobson 
wrote:

> Jaromil  wrote:
>
> >> Hi, over on the Samba mailing list, somebody asked what
> '--with-systemd' was
> >> for. It has now degenerated into a discussion on how to get systemd to
> start
> >> the 'samba' deamon,
>
> There's also been a short thread on the MythTV mailing list about how to
> get the MythTV Frontend to only start after there's a working network. It
> started with a user reporting that after upgrading his MythBuntu install
> the Frontend would sometimes start properly and sometimes start into the
> setup screen (which is what it does if it can't find the backend) - with no
> apparent pattern as to when it does or doesn't work.
> Of course, the upgrade put SystemD on the machine.
>
> The fun part ? For some reason that must have made sense to someone,
> networking is only started when the user logs into the desktop. WTF ? So
> the suggested fix is to disable the network manager and manually configure
> the network via /etc/network/interfaces.
>
>
> > said by a Samba developer , this is priceless
> >
> > """
> > You have your opinion and I have mine and my opinion (for what it is
> > worth) is that systemd is something that is looking for a problem that
> > doesn't really exist and then fixing the problem in a totally insane
> > way. If systemd was just another init system and was easy to change then
> > I wouldn't mind, but it keeps gobbling up things that have nothing to do
> > with an init system and is becoming extremely hard to remove.
> >
> > As far as I am concerned, this ends this conversation, you have my
> > opinion and nothing will change it, so don't bother trying.
> > """
>
> Yes, a brilliant response
>
> > besides, people at Samba are very good and well seasoned coders. They
> > haven't only managed to reverse-engineer a closed protocol and make an
> > open source daemon which is massively used and works across all major
> > operating systems. Some of them are also responsible for developing
> > rsync, which is... well before it existed the world was different.
> >
> > I have massive respect for them and I'm not surprised someone among
> > them has such an opinion of systemd.
>
> +1
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Re: [DNG] Need for documentation (Steve Litt)

[Hendrik Boom]

On Fri, Jul 15, 2016 at 02:25:01AM -0400, Steve Litt wrote:
> 
> Cool! Like F1, these four things should be discoverable from text on the
> login screen.

Or else put this on the login screen, along with the F1 stuff:

1) Hold down Alt and SysRq and type "reisub" to reboot, or
2) Alt-SysRq plus "reisuo" to shutdown.

-- hendrik
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Re: [DNG] Why Debian 8 Pinning is pointless

[dev]

On 07/13/2016 01:14 PM, Rick Moen wrote:

'dev' wrote:


> You can pin all you want, and force-remove all you want, but
> one day there will be a package you need (let's pretend it's
> linux-libc-dev-xxx.x.x) which will have the hinge-pin baked-in. You
> can no longer update libc.



Really?  The GNU libc package is going to suffer a dependency chain that
requires package systemd?


Sure, why not? Poettering and Sievers want systemd in the kernel so why 
stop when there's an entire distribution to mess up? Quite sad that it 
had to be Debian; SCO would have been a much better fit especially 
considering the Microsoft backing and the general dbaggery of SCO 
leadership.


Glibc is just an example but the apache common package dependence is 
real. It's been specifically compiled with a systemd dependency simply 
to make the software inoperable when libsystemd0 has been removed. There 
is no reason to have that library compiled into that package and you 
know that.


All things considered, If the only choice left were Debian I would 
likely switch to Windows. Far fewer bugs and less... systemDuctape.



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Re: [DNG] Need for documentation (golinux)

[Jim Murphy]

On Fri, Jul 15, 2016 at 12:30 AM, Robert Storey  wrote:

> The commands "halt" and "reboot" do not seem to work. SLIM asks me for a
> password for user "halt" and user "reboot" which is less than useful, since
> no such users exist.

I believe you need to look at this form a different view point.  From a
security standpoint the "system" doesn't know who is trying to log into
it.  So why should it(the code) allow just anyone the ability to halt or
reboot.

I'm not set up to check this, but best guess it it looking for the user's
password it the name was already entered or more likely it is looking
for the "root" password to preform these two operations.

As I said, I'm not set up to check this.

Jim
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[DNG] ML archive oddities and annoyances

[Go Linux]

A day or so ago, when I clicked on my bookmark for the DNG archives it was not 
going to the dng archives but to some other weird place and I had a terrible 
time finding my way back.  I finally figured it out this morning.  My trusty 
DNG link that has been working since the exodus declaration had been hijacked 
by devuan-discuss - the webmail interface to discourse.  I had not signed up 
for that feature and want nothing to do with it yet there it was.  The only way 
I could get a reliable link to dng was through the search function.  This seems 
to be working atm:

https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/search/20380101.00.@ml:dng.en.html

I don't know whether the hijack was an intentional ploy to drive people to the 
discourse forum or just a linkage mis-step.  In any case, you might want to 
check out how the mail sever is set up because this was really, REALLY annoying.

golinux
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Re: [DNG] Need for documentation (golinux)

[Go Linux]

On Fri, 7/15/16, Robert Storey  wrote:

 Subject: Re: [DNG] Need for documentation (golinux)
 To: dng@lists.dyne.org
 Date: Friday, July 15, 2016, 12:30 AM
 
Re: [DNG] Need for documentation (golinux)

> Robert Storey 
>> Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2016 04:04:59 + (UTC)
>> From: Go Linux 
>>
>>>From /usr/share/doc/slim/README :
>>
>>Special usernames (commands configurable in the config file):
>>- console: start console login
>>- exit: exit SLiM
>>- halt: halt the system
>>- reboot: reboot the system
>
> Hi golinux,
>
> Thank you for this, it's useful information. However, just like the issue on 
> using F1 to scroll through available
> window managers, the above isn't obvious and is easily missed (after all, I 
> missed it). True, I'm not the geekiest
> Linux user alive, but I'm not a novice either.
>
> So I think it would be nice if there was a little "Help" box stuck in the 
> graphic login screen which contained all of
> the above info. It wouldn't have to be very intrusive, but there is enough 
> screen real estate to accommodate it, I think.
>
> Should I be filing a bug report to push this issue? Hardly seems like a true 
> "bug," but I do think it's important.

Hmm...I should have actually tried those commands before I shot off my mouth. 
Now I see more problems...

The commands "console" and "exit" work, in the sense that you'll get a console 
from where you can log in, though I see no advantage in that. You could use 
Ctrl-Alt-F2 though F6 to do the same thing (and Ctrl-Alt F7 to get back to the 
original login desktop). You still have to log in first before you can reboot 
or shutdown.

The commands "halt" and "reboot" do not seem to work. SLIM asks me for a 
password for user "halt" and user "reboot" which is less than useful, since no 
such users exist.

There is an error in file /usr/share/doc/slim/README, it says:

CONFIGURATION
/usr/etc/slim.conf is the main configuration file.

Of course, that should say:
/etc/slim.conf is the main configuration file.

best regards,
Robert



Obviously, I didn't try what was suggested in the readme . . . don't like to 
reboot or even logout.  I'm hoping that someone with more chops than I have 
should be able to get those commands working.

I suggest you file an issue under the slim package and assign it to hellekin.

And I totally agree that there should be some text suggestions on the login 
screen perhaps to a revised README if nothing else.

golinux 

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Re: [DNG] Larcenous mail threads.

[KatolaZ]

On Fri, Jul 15, 2016 at 06:43:36AM +0200, Edward Bartolo wrote:

[cut]

> 
> Your intention is glaringly clear: you are not sincere, you are a dumb
> liar and must be treated like one. What counts is feedback from those
> who want to really help.
> 
> You made my day, ROFLMAO!
> 
> Next one, please!

Edward, if you keep reacting like that, I think that you will hardly
find anybody else willing to give you any feedback at all. Or to read
your emails, for that matter...

HND

KatolaZ

-- 
[ ~.,_  Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ - GLUGCT -- Freaknet Medialab  ]  
[ "+.  katolaz [at] freaknet.org --- katolaz [at] yahoo.it  ]
[   @)   http://kalos.mine.nu ---  Devuan GNU + Linux User  ]
[ @@)  http://maths.qmul.ac.uk/~vnicosia --  GPG: 0B5F062F  ] 
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[DNG] debmon.org

[Simon Walter]

Has anyone had experience with the packages on debmon.org? I want to use 
icingaweb2. Any tips or gotchas with their repos? It looks like 
icingaweb2 is also in sid. Not sure which is more recent. icinga-web (1) 
is just a "web app". So I may just download it from icinga's web site.


Simon

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Re: [DNG] Larcenous mail threads.

[Go Linux]

On Thu, 7/14/16, Edward Bartolo  wrote:

 Subject: Re: [DNG] Larcenous mail threads.
 To: "dng" 
 Date: Thursday, July 14, 2016, 11:43 PM
 
 Hi,
 
 <<
 About choice of language. I read there are 191 undefined
 behaviors in the C99 standard, which means an equal number
 of tarpits waiting for the cognitively difficient coder.
 >>



And the source of that quote is . . .   I looked on the archives and only 
found your two posts titled "Larcenous mail threads" (though I might have 
missed something) . . .  Note that I am not reading the thread on C code

golinux




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Re: [DNG] Raspberry Pi 3

[Florian Zieboll]

On Fri, 15 Jul 2016 12:29:11 +0200
shraptor  wrote:


> I came across some rumors of rpi3 having a overheating problem?


For the case these rumors are true: Standard cyanoacrylate super glue
works perfectly well to stick a small heat sink to the CPU - possibly
combined with some additional holes drilled through the housing.

libre Grüße,

Florian


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Re: [DNG] Raspberry Pi 3

[Jaromil]

On Fri, 15 Jul 2016, shraptor wrote:

> On 2016-07-14 22:22, Jaromil wrote:
> >our image works perfect on rpi2 and 3, at dyne.org we already use it
> >in production for a couple of projects.
> 
> I came across some rumors of rpi3 having a overheating problem?
> 
> Did you notice anything like that in your projects, Mine is gonna
> run pretty much all the time.

I use several in different situations one also as a set-top box for
personal use and no problems at all. I have not measured it really nor
the set-top box is heavy on the CPU because the thing has a video
decoder chip, however I think is pretty solid and I'm happy with it,
much more than with rpi1 or 2 which kind of sucked also for net/usb
irq steering issues. but well, I haven't tried mining dogecoin on it
or something stupid like that that would occupy cpus all the time :^)
I guess you aren't planning that either.

ciao

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Re: [DNG] Raspberry Pi 3

[shraptor]

On 2016-07-14 22:22, Jaromil wrote:

our image works perfect on rpi2 and 3, at dyne.org we already use it
in production for a couple of projects.


I came across some rumors of rpi3 having a overheating problem?

Did you notice anything like that in your projects, Mine is gonna
run pretty much all the time.

/scooby
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Re: [DNG] C Obfuscated code: a virtue or a vice?

[Jaromil]

On Fri, 15 Jul 2016, Peter Olson wrote:

> You misunderstand what the IOCCC is about.  It's a game.  Nobody
> trying to write useful code will do anything like what IOCCC writes.

well, I even argue is software-art :^) back 15 years ago I facilitated
the inclusion of some IOCCC entries in this exibition originally shown
at the MAK in Frankfurt, which then went pretty much around the world
http://www.digitalcraft.org/iloveyou/c_code.htm

but yes, its definitely not polite nor useful to obfuscate code that
people uses. to the contrary, I think literate programming is the way

ciao

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Re: [DNG] Why Debian 8 Pinning is (or isn't) pointless

[Simon Hobson]

Rick Moen  wrote:

> 'Doing' something that is functionally indistinguishable from doing
> nothing.  And a '000' rights mask would be fully effective paranoia
> insurance.

Present tense and gaffer tape. Of course, any libsystemd package update will 
rip that gaffer tape off so it's one more thing to keep checking/fixing on an 
ongoing basis.

> Are you capable of preventing the installation of package systemd?  I
> am.  Thus, libsystemd0 does, in end-result, nothing.

Present tense again.

Can you, with crystal ball, 100% guarantee that something like libsystemd won't 
get "feature enhanced" at some point ? When packages have gone down the route 
of gratuitous dependencies and then start finding that it would be easier if 
libsystemd did "just this one thing" even when systemd itself isn't installed.
I would not put such actions past the systemd gang "just to make life easier" 
for those packagers "supporting" them but with users fiddling with pinning and 
such.

I understand that you don't see much point to Devuan because clearly for you, 
gaffer tape works fine. I see a point because pinning etc is only gaffer tape, 
and as time goes one you'll need more and more gaffer tape. Don't get me wrong, 
gaffer tape is great stuff - but I'd be mighty peed off if I took my car in for 
(eg) a service and it came back with bits held on with gaffer tape.


And one more thing.
You've argued about (or at least discussed) the % of packages dependent on 
systemd. When you came up with your 90-something percent, was that direct 
dependencies, or did you account for A depends on B, B depends on C, C depends 
on D, and D depends on systemd ? Because if you didn't, then you'll have 
included A, B, and C in your count which is bogus.
But the actual number is irrelevant anyway. I really really REALLY don't give a 
fig if there are 40+k packages that don't depend on systemd if there is ONE 
package I need to run which does. We need 100% - not 99%, not 99.9%, but 100% - 
of the packages I want/need to run to be free of systemd in order to be systemd 
free.

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Re: [DNG] C Obfuscated code: a virtue or a vice?

[Peter Olson]

> On July 15, 2016 at 1:23 AM Edward Bartolo  wrote:

> The International Obfuscated C Code Contest, IOCCC was started by the
> "masters" and "pioneers" in C. This is a "competition" for those who
> take pride in compressing code to the point of making it practically
> unreadable.
> 
> The following is a program submitted to IOCCC:
> http://www.ioccc.org/2015/dogon/prog.c

> At first, I was tempted to follow the path of writing obfuscated code,
> but thinking about it, with todays huge computers, it simple doesn't
> make sense to write difficult to read code. In the past there was an
> advantage of writing such code that saved on code size as RAM size was
> only a few kilobytes but definitely not today.

You misunderstand what the IOCCC is about.  It's a game.  Nobody trying to 
write useful code will do anything like what IOCCC writes.

> Here on this mailing list, I am noticing that being committed to write
> legible code, is interpreted as an inherent lack of coding ability.

I doubt you will find anyone at all on this list who criticizes legible code.

> In
> my case, irrespective of the attacks by some, and the fact that when I
> submitted functional code nobody commented about it,

I did.  I made two suggestions:

1) Don't use bare semicolons in while/for constructs.

  Use the continue statement instead.

2) when comparing to a literal (or a constant expression), put the literal on 
the left hand side of the boolean:

  if (value = literal)
stuff;

  when it is intended

  if (value == literal)
stuff;

You can make this mistake, the compiler won't alert you, and you may spend 
hours trying to figure out what is wrong.

Instead do it like this:

  if (literal == value)
stuff;

  and not

if (literal = value)
stuff;

which the compiler will flag as an error.

The compiler is your friend, if you help it a bit.

Peter Olson

> those who are attacking are only interested in making disguised
> personal attacks to dissuade me from helping in the project. The
> answer to these people is: I will continue to move on irrespective of
> your attacks.
> 
> Edward
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Re: [DNG] C Obfuscated code: a virtue or a vice?

[Edward Bartolo]

Hi,

<<
Why are you even posting C code here. Go post your code on a site
dedicated to C. I think you will have much more fun and progress.
>>

Good suggestion, thanks.
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Re: [DNG] Need for documentation (Steve Litt)

[Steve Litt]

On Fri, 15 Jul 2016 04:04:59 + (UTC)
Go Linux  wrote:


> 
> From /usr/share/doc/slim/README :
> 
> Special usernames (commands configurable in the config file):
> - console: start console login
> - exit: exit SLiM
> - halt: halt the system
> - reboot: reboot the system
> 
> 
> golinux

Cool! Like F1, these four things should be discoverable from text on the
login screen.

Thanks,

SteveT

Steve Litt 
July 2016 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques
 of the Successful Technologist
http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques
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Re: [DNG] C Obfuscated code: a virtue or a vice?

[Simon Walter]

On 07/15/2016 02:23 PM, Edward Bartolo wrote:

Hi,


The International Obfuscated C Code Contest, IOCCC was started by the
"masters" and "pioneers" in C. This is a "competition" for those who
take pride in compressing code to the point of making it practically
unreadable.

The following is a program submitted to IOCCC:
http://www.ioccc.org/2015/dogon/prog.c


At first, I was tempted to follow the path of writing obfuscated code,
but thinking about it, with todays huge computers, it simple doesn't
make sense to write difficult to read code. In the past there was an
advantage of writing such code that saved on code size as RAM size was
only a few kilobytes but definitely not today.

Here on this mailing list, I am noticing that being committed to write
legible code, is interpreted as an inherent lack of coding ability. In
my case, irrespective of the attacks by some, and the fact that when I
submitted functional code nobody commented about it, indicates that
those who are attacking are only interested in making disguised
personal attacks to dissuade me from helping in the project. The
answer to these people is: I will continue to move on irrespective of
your attacks.



IIRC, the person on this list who mentioned IOCCC said that it was a bad 
idea if you were a professional programmer. Did you miss that part?


I think you have a persecution/victim complex and a lack of attention to 
detail.


You should be thankful for the people on this list willing to help you 
and guide you. Read "How to Become a Hacker." It might help you 
understand the world you are interacting with. Why are you even posting 
C code here. Go post your code on a site dedicated to C. I think you 
will have much more fun and progress.


Peace,

Simon
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