Re: [DNG] Why Debian 8 Pinning is (or isn't) pointless

[Simon Walter]

On 07/29/2016 01:28 PM, Steve Litt wrote:

On Fri, 29 Jul 2016 10:49:32 +0900
Simon Walter  wrote:


On 07/29/2016 10:00 AM, info at smallinnovations.nl wrote:

On 29-07-16 01:43, Rick Moen wrote:

If you can suggest an additional method, I'll be glad to amend my
list of suggestions.  Otherwise, I'm not sure what your point is.

Your point is quite clear: you do not want a fork of debian and
that is the whole point of you being vocal on this list is it not?
I suppose you are quite good in Debian politics.

Adding you to my blacklist now.


Rick, that's exactly what I was talking about. You might be well
intentioned, but in so many words you are saying that you disagree
with a fork of Debian. So of course people here will not see you as
well intentioned and a quite possibly many other negative things.


In all fairness to Rick, he was making his statements on SVLUG, and
then, on DNG, *I* referenced the SVLUG archive of the SVLUG discussion,
and only then did he repeat his assertions here.



Yup, I saw the show. ;)
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Re: [DNG] Why Debian 8 Pinning is (or isn't) pointless

[Steve Litt]

On Fri, 29 Jul 2016 10:49:32 +0900
Simon Walter  wrote:

> On 07/29/2016 10:00 AM, info at smallinnovations.nl wrote:
> > On 29-07-16 01:43, Rick Moen wrote:  
> >> If you can suggest an additional method, I'll be glad to amend my
> >> list of suggestions.  Otherwise, I'm not sure what your point is.  
> > Your point is quite clear: you do not want a fork of debian and
> > that is the whole point of you being vocal on this list is it not?
> > I suppose you are quite good in Debian politics.
> >
> > Adding you to my blacklist now.  
> 
> Rick, that's exactly what I was talking about. You might be well 
> intentioned, but in so many words you are saying that you disagree
> with a fork of Debian. So of course people here will not see you as
> well intentioned and a quite possibly many other negative things.

In all fairness to Rick, he was making his statements on SVLUG, and
then, on DNG, *I* referenced the SVLUG archive of the SVLUG discussion,
and only then did he repeat his assertions here.

SteveT

Steve Litt 
July 2016 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques
 of the Successful Technologist
http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques
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Re: [DNG] Logout problem

[Ozi Traveller]

Hi uhtlmk

Thanks I have a look at it!

The link didn't work for me. I check it on my manjaro install.

Cheers
Ozi

On Fri, May 27, 2016 at 12:06 AM,  wrote:

> Some time ago Ozi Traveller helped me out for my logout problem sending
> me 2 desktop environment independent logout tools (cb-exit and
> oblogout, which essentially do the same, only oblogout is a bit more
> eye candy). I had some problems with them but solved by changing the
> localauthority settings of polkit.
>
> Now, i have the chance to access my manjaro-openrc machine and i see
> they do use oblogout in a slightly different manner: For them, oblogout
> works as a kind of skin over a script called "fluxboxexit" (which
> adresses both, systemd and openrc. For those interested, you can look
> at it here: http://hastebin.com/ufeluvobiw.rb). The /etc/oblogout.conf
> then look like this:
>
> ---
> [settings]
> usehal = false
>
> [looks]
> opacity = 40
> bgcolor = black
> # buttontheme =
> buttontheme = foom
> buttons = lock, logout, switch, suspend, hibernate, restart, shutdown,
> cancel
>
> [shortcuts]
> lock = K
> logout = L
> switch = W
> suspend = U
> hibernate = H
> restart = R
> shutdown = S
> cancel = Escape
>
> [commands]
> lock = ob_blurlock
> logout = fluxboxexit logout
> switch = dm-tool switch-to-greeter
> suspend = fluxboxexit suspend
> hibernate = fluxboxexit hibernate
> restart = fluxboxexit reboot
> shutdown = fluxboxexit shutdown
> ---
>
> May be it's not that bad as an idea?
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Re: [DNG] comunity driven repositories

[Ozi Traveller]

Hi uhtlmk

There is already a group working on this.

https://talk.devuan.org/t/attempt-to-make-a-jwm-based-desktop-for-devuan/

Cheers
Ozi


On Wed, Jun 1, 2016 at 12:31 AM,  wrote:

> Hello list!
>
> Is it possible/wished to have comunity driven repositories for devuan?
> Background: trying to put together the stuff to make a viable JWM
> desktop for devuan, i realize there are some key
> applications/scripts/tools which are *NOT* in the devuan repositories
> (not even in testing or unstable). So, how one could play around that
> problem?
>
> Thanks a lot in advance for your patience.
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Re: [DNG] configure a wifi connection from commandline

[Hendrik Boom]

On Sun, Jun 12, 2016 at 11:09:39AM +0200, uht...@posteo.de wrote:
> I installed a basic devuan ascii to qemu and hopefully i went to /etc
> to configure from the commandline a working wireless connection. But,
> nada - there is no wpa_supplicant (which i expected to be there).

I have wpasupplicant on my devuan laptop, aptitude tells me there is 
no wpa-supplicant, but there is wpasupplicant.

Perhaps you just need to install it without the hyphen.

hendrik@notlookedfor:~$ aptitude show wpa-supplicant
E: Unable to locate package wpa-supplicant
hendrik@notlookedfor:~$ aptitude show wpasupplicant
Package: wpasupplicant   
State: installed
Automatically installed: yes
Multi-Arch: foreign
Version: 2.3-1+deb8u3
Priority: optional
Section: net
Maintainer: Debian wpasupplicant Maintainers 

Architecture: i386
Uncompressed Size: 2,705 k
Depends: libc6 (>= 2.15), libdbus-1-3 (>= 1.1.4), libnl-3-200 (>= 3.2.7),
 libnl-genl-3-200 (>= 3.2.7), libpcsclite1 (>= 1.0.0), libreadline6
 (>= 6.0), libssl1.0.0 (>= 1.0.1), lsb-base, adduser
Suggests: wpagui, libengine-pkcs11-openssl
Breaks: initscripts (< 2.88dsf-13.3)
Description: client support for WPA and WPA2 (IEEE 802.11i)
 
Homepage: http://w1.fi/wpa_supplicant/

Tags: admin::configuring, implemented-in::c, interface::commandline,
  interface::daemon, interface::shell, network::client,
  network::configuration, protocol::ssl, role::program,
  security::cryptography, uitoolkit::ncurses, use::configuring

hendrik@notlookedfor:~$ 

-- hendrik

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Re: [DNG] Linux-Speakup-friendly emails: was question about mailing lists

[aitor_czr]

On 07/29/2016 03:51 AM, aitor_czr wrote:



On 07/29/2016 03:00 AM, Joel Roth  wrote:

As of Aug. 14, 2015:

...Speakup is now part of the Linux kernel's staging tree,
so you will find the source for its kernel modules in the
source tarballs and git repositories of the kernel itself.

http://linux-speakup.org/download.html


Oh, now i understand:

http://linux-speakup.org/

A penguin accompained by a guide dog help, isn't it?

A Golden retrevier :)

Cheers,

  Aitor.





Springs to mind Knoppix Adriane.

  Aitor.



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Re: [DNG] Linux-Speakup-friendly emails: was question about mailing lists

[aitor_czr]

On 07/29/2016 03:00 AM, Joel Roth  wrote:

As of Aug. 14, 2015:

...Speakup is now part of the Linux kernel's staging tree,
so you will find the source for its kernel modules in the
source tarballs and git repositories of the kernel itself.

http://linux-speakup.org/download.html


Oh, now i understand:

http://linux-speakup.org/

A penguin accompained by a guide dog help, isn't it?

A Golden retrevier :)

Cheers,

  Aitor.



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Re: [DNG] Why Debian 8 Pinning is (or isn't) pointless

[Simon Walter]

On 07/29/2016 10:00 AM, info at smallinnovations.nl wrote:

On 29-07-16 01:43, Rick Moen wrote:

If you can suggest an additional method, I'll be glad to amend my list
of suggestions.  Otherwise, I'm not sure what your point is.

Your point is quite clear: you do not want a fork of debian and that is
the whole point of you being vocal on this list is it not? I suppose you
are quite good in Debian politics.

Adding you to my blacklist now.


Rick, that's exactly what I was talking about. You might be well 
intentioned, but in so many words you are saying that you disagree with 
a fork of Debian. So of course people here will not see you as well 
intentioned and a quite possibly many other negative things.


If you really think Devuan is wrong, then flight it harder. Be more 
evangelical about it. Why not write a diatribe about it on your website 
and post the link wherever you like? But please don't hide your disdain 
for Devaun in intellectualism. You think we are idiots? Just call us 
idiots and be done with it. I get labeled an idiot every time I walk out 
my door. It doesn't mean much to me.


You seem like a smart guy and seem well intentioned. Others may be able 
to use your good advice. So maybe try and appear a little more open 
minded and others might open up a bit too.


That's my unsolicited advice. m(__)m
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Re: [DNG] Why Debian 8 Pinning is (or isn't) pointless

[info at smallinnovations.nl]

On 29-07-16 01:43, Rick Moen wrote:

Quoting info at smallinnovations.nl (i...@smallinnovations.nl):


I am a sysadmin myself and why in hell would i like to rebuild local
packages?

One of my worst and most annoying habits is to give reasoned and useful
answers to rhetorical questions.

Hardly, you act like a troll quite a long time now.

   So:

You might decide to rebuild a local package lacking a dependency on
libsystemd0 if you feel a need for it and what you want isn't available
in any even-easier fashion.



I simply want a distro without systemd.

But wanting it doesn't _get_ you that -- NOR does it get you a system
without libsystemd0, either.  Thus my point.

There are more distros then Debian as you well know.




When i cannot get one i will start pinning or rebuild local packages
but not one moment earlier.

Great, so answer me a question:  How are you getting a system without
libsystemd0 today?
Waiting for Devuan or using something else then Linux as i told in the 
part of my message  you did not quote.


To my knowledge, you would need to follow one of the suggestions
currently included on my OpenRC Conversion page's list of 'overcoming
dependency obstacles' tips, which are (a) equivs, (b) find a third-party
repo with a rebuilt (or differently built) package, (c) wait for Devuan
to produce one, (d) rebuild the package locally, or (e) construct a deb
package using the upstream source tarball using debhelper.  (I also
mentioned on this mailing list the creative idea of overwriting the
problematic library with a nearly null-function one, to fool apps
claimed to merely see if a library can be opened without being
particular about what's in it.)

Is there an additional way of achieving that result today?  Or are you
merely saying you really, really, really want one?

You 'cannot get one' today for a number of packages including (according
to one poster here) ClamAV.  So, how are you achieving it _today_, sir?


If you can suggest an additional method, I'll be glad to amend my list
of suggestions.  Otherwise, I'm not sure what your point is.
Your point is quite clear: you do not want a fork of debian and that is 
the whole point of you being vocal on this list is it not? I suppose you 
are quite good in Debian politics.


Adding you to my blacklist now.


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Re: [DNG] Linux-Speakup-friendly emails: was question about, mailing lists

[Joel Roth]

On Thu, Jul 28, 2016 at 10:41:12PM +0200, aitor_czr wrote:
> 
> 
> On 07/28/2016 10:05 PM, aitor_czr wrote:
> >On 07/28/2016 05:42 PM, Steve Litt  wrote:
> >>On Thu, 28 Jul 2016 12:03:59 +0200
> >>Jaromil wrote:
> >>
> To this let me add that some valuable members of our community have
> low vision, plus Devuan Minimal Live has been optimised explicitly for
> the Linux-Speakup community. Therefore any attention to concise and
> meaningful quoting is appreciated and helps inclusion. It is also
> advisable to avoid dragging long threads with replies which are not
> particularly informative. Let minimalism and elegance be the guiding
> principles for our communication, not just our distribution :^)
> >>If I lose much more visual acuity, I'll be doing the Linux-Speakup
> >>thing too. I didn't know about it before this email.
> >>
> >>So let me ask you: What standards of quoting are compatible with
> >>Linux-Speakup, and could you please elaborate on concise and
> >>meaningful quoting as it relates to people reading my replies with
> >>Linux-Speakup?
> >>
> >>Thanks,
> >>
> >>SteveT
> >
> >I don't know anything about Linux-Speakup :-(
> >
> >  Aitor.
> 
> This is what i find:
> 
> http://linux-speakup.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo

As of Aug. 14, 2015:

...Speakup is now part of the Linux kernel's staging tree,
so you will find the source for its kernel modules in the
source tarballs and git repositories of the kernel itself.

http://linux-speakup.org/download.html
 
>   Aitor.
> 
> 
> 
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-- 
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Re: [DNG] Why Debian 8 Pinning is (or isn't) pointless

[Rick Moen]

Quoting Simon Hobson (si...@thehobsons.co.uk):

> So when someone states that "it's just a library, it doesn't do
> anything" then that needs taking with a pinch of salt because once
> anything calls one of it's functions, then that library can do lots of
> stuff.

On the other hand, when the person says 'it's just a library; it doesn't
do anything'[1], _and_ accompanies that with the crucial detail that the
reason this _particular_ library doesn't do anything is that it's merely
interface code to something else you have deliberately left out, _and_ 
went to the trouble of explaining that a library can do anything except
be directly invoked as an executable, _and_ scrupulously referred you to 
good documentation on libraries so you can learn what they are if you
honestly do system administration but don't know what a library is ---
then maybe you should keep the salt in its box, because you never know
when you might need salt for something other than failing to understand
information in context.

> So the point I've been making before is that, even if libsystemd0
> "does nothing" now, we can't be complacent that it won't change.

And package maintainers are evil corrupt collaborators who wouldn't
catch this and reject the change, and the entire Linux community would
be incompetent to notice and take remedial action.  

Of course!  How did I miss that?

> OK, this many be paranoia 

No, really? 


[1] That person endeavours to not write run-on sentences, so would in
fact use a semicolon rather than a comma.

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Re: [DNG] Why Debian 8 Pinning is (or isn't) pointless

[Rick Moen]

Quoting Steve Litt (sl...@troubleshooters.com):

> > Who's the Tory of the Blind Man and the Elephant?  Theresa May?  ;->

Quoted to remind people that I never learned who this mysterious
Conservative Party MP is.  Curious Minds Want to Know.[tm]

> Which brings us full circle. Simon doesn't want to keep playing these
> games, wondering what kind of workaround he'll need next, as Lennart
> decides to subsume yet another Linux functionality, or Debian's "DDs"
> make yet another poor decision on dependencies. So he chose to go with
> the fork.

Great, he 'doesn't want'.

Now that that's settled, what is he going to _do_, to achieve what he says
he _does_ want.  And when I say 'do', I don't mean the
ranting-on-mailing lists part, but rather actually do.

> I don't have the tech chops to know all the various ways Lennart can
> screw up my life, nor do I have the technical chops to know (without
> huge experimentation) how to work around Lennart's latest incursion.

Well, gosh, you _could_ read my Web page.

That's what I wrote it for.  However, cannot lead the horse to water, of
course.

> I know the incursions will keep on coming

Yes, the sky is always falling.  News at 11.


> And then there's this: I don't know anything about Simon's feelings,
> but Debian's actions of 2014 disgust me.

That's nice.  Me, I'm a bit busy managing systems.  Which involves
mostly dealing with software and making things work.  There have been
times in the past when you've written a few things about that, too.



> For me, continuing to use Debian is an impossibility. 

Yes, we know you're a Void Linux user.  Thus all the extremely
impassioned Devuan fervour.  ;->

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Re: [DNG] How do I install Devuan NOW

[Hendrik Boom]

On Sat, Jun 11, 2016 at 12:58:21PM +1000, terryc wrote:
> After looking before and following the instructions there, I've
> upgraded Debian wheezy to Debian Jessie and apparently that isn't
> how you do it now.

Since you are asking on this list, do you mean upgrading to *devuan*  
jessie?  That's just what I did on my AMD-64 Debian wheezy server only 
a few weeks ago.

Mind you, I did not have kde or gnome installed, and after the upgrade 
I no longer had the gdm display and login manager, but logging in to a 
text terminal and then typeing 'startx' works just fine.

-- hendrik

> 
> So what am I supposed to do now?
> I'm looking for a set of migration steps that don't involve blowing
> stuff away and loading an iso.
> 
> On a side question, how do you permanently lock a Debian:Jessie system
> to boot the system-init(?) boot up. I had a look but my old knowledge
> of editing grub.conf doesn't appear to apply.

Do you mean sysv-init?
> 
> T.I.A
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Re: [DNG] Why Debian 8 Pinning is (or isn't) pointless

[Rick Moen]

Quoting info at smallinnovations.nl (i...@smallinnovations.nl):

> I am a sysadmin myself and why in hell would i like to rebuild local
> packages?

One of my worst and most annoying habits is to give reasoned and useful
answers to rhetorical questions.  So:

You might decide to rebuild a local package lacking a dependency on
libsystemd0 if you feel a need for it and what you want isn't available
in any even-easier fashion.


> I simply want a distro without systemd.

But wanting it doesn't _get_ you that -- NOR does it get you a system
without libsystemd0, either.  Thus my point.


> When i cannot get one i will start pinning or rebuild local packages
> but not one moment earlier.

Great, so answer me a question:  How are you getting a system without
libsystemd0 today?

To my knowledge, you would need to follow one of the suggestions
currently included on my OpenRC Conversion page's list of 'overcoming
dependency obstacles' tips, which are (a) equivs, (b) find a third-party
repo with a rebuilt (or differently built) package, (c) wait for Devuan
to produce one, (d) rebuild the package locally, or (e) construct a deb
package using the upstream source tarball using debhelper.  (I also
mentioned on this mailing list the creative idea of overwriting the
problematic library with a nearly null-function one, to fool apps
claimed to merely see if a library can be opened without being
particular about what's in it.)

Is there an additional way of achieving that result today?  Or are you
merely saying you really, really, really want one?

You 'cannot get one' today for a number of packages including (according
to one poster here) ClamAV.  So, how are you achieving it _today_, sir?


If you can suggest an additional method, I'll be glad to amend my list
of suggestions.  Otherwise, I'm not sure what your point is.

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Re: [DNG] man init

[Hendrik Boom]

On Sat, Jun 04, 2016 at 01:27:25PM +0200, Friedhelm Mehnert wrote:
> On Fri, 3 Jun 2016 21:10:05 -1000
> Joel Roth  wrote:
> 
> > My system is devuan/jessie, upgraded from debian.

was that from debian jessie?

> >
> > It's interesting that 'man init' brings up the
> > systemd man page.
> >
> 
> On my systems, upgraded from Wheezy I get the INIT(8) manpage.
> 
> Regards Friedhelm

So do I.  Also on the system I installed from scratch with on of the 
old devuan betas. 

-- hendrik
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Re: [DNG] Why Debian 8 Pinning is (or isn't) pointless

[Rick Moen]

Quoting Hendrik Boom (hend...@topoi.pooq.com):

> Though I suspect no one is going to give you the car you'd like, the 
> devuan developers are solving _his_ problems for him.  The fork is 
> going to help some people.  I suspect there are enough of these people 
> to make the fork worthwhile.  Of course I haven't taken a census, and I 
> don't really know.

Those people are likely to include the guy I shave (yr. humble servant),
so you-plural will have my profound thanks.  And that includes if you
help me get libsystemd0 off my system with minimal effort, which would
be cool even if I don't think it's all that important -- so thanks in
advance!

On the other hand, complaining on mailing lists isn't coding.


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Re: [DNG] Ugly, ugly news

[Simon Walter]

On 07/29/2016 06:43 AM, Rick Moen wrote:

Quoting Rowland Penny (rpenny241...@gmail.com):


It is a very stupid organisation that doesn't listen to its users,
you can make the best thing in the world (and systemd certainly
isn't that), but if a lot of your users don't want it, you are in
trouble.

...

What I call a 'process person' is one who is comfortable thinking in
terms of stepwise chronologically sequential mechanism.  A is a
necessary preconditon of B, which can be made to cause C, all of which
is an efficient path to bring about D.  a 'non-process person' is one
whose mind doesn't think that way.  Lacking (pick any N) aptitude,
attitude, and/or patience to deal in mechanism, they go around talking
about how wonderful D would be and how something-never-mind-what-and-how
should make D happen.

Process thinkers should be kind to the other folks and say 'You may be
right.  D might be lovely, and I do hope you get what you want.'
Non-process thinkers should be understanding of the other folks (the
ones who actually _do_ things) and realise that sometimes they just
aren't going to do D because they'd rather do something else, and stop
getting upset over this.

I do hope you get what you want.



Aha... An old gypsy curse. In this case appropriate because non-process 
thinkers usually don't really know what they want.


Process vs. non-process - hierarchal vs. equal - We also have sane vs. 
insane. I see a lot strife being cause by the mentally ill. I must 
remind myself that I am the person easiest for me to lie to.

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Re: [DNG] Why Debian 8 Pinning is (or isn't) pointless

[Simon Hobson]

Arnt Gulbrandsen  wrote:

> A library can do anything the executable can.

Which is what I thought.
So when someone states that "it's just a library, it doesn't do anything" then 
that needs taking with a pinch of salt because once anything calls one of it's 
functions, then that library can do lots of stuff.
"It wouldn't make sense" for a library to do anything when the main system 
component isn't installed - but don't most of us think that little the systemd 
guys do makes sense anyway ?

So the point I've been making before is that, even if libsystemd0 "does 
nothing" now, we can't be complacent that it won't change. Just imagine if a 
few devs started talking along the lines of "well if systemd isn't installed, 
doing X is a little harder" - I would not be in the least surprised to find 
"stuff to do X" getting shifted from "systemd" to libsystemd0. OK, it's not 
going to be an init system, and I imagine it would be quite hard (or would it 
?) to get a well built daemon running, but is there anything to stop them (say) 
putting all the binary logging stuff in there so devs can use the systemd 
logging instead of using syslog ?
And thus, the presence of libsystemd0 then allows parts of systemd itself to 
pervade non-systemd systems.

OK, this many be paranoia - but I'm sure that was said about the threat of 
systemd when it's inclusion was being considered.

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Re: [DNG] Open-RC on devuan - some questions

[uhtlmk]

@Jaromil, parazyd

From a previous question i posted about openrc, i got an answer by
jaromil, that there is underway an openrc package for ascii (which
would respect the gentoo style of implementation).

Now, my question: Is there a, may be even experimental package,
already? I'd be happy to use (and try out) that :)

TIA
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Re: [DNG] [Grml] Is grml still alive

[Alexander Wirt]

On Wed, 20 Jul 2016, Arnt Karlsen wrote:

> On Wed, 20 Jul 2016 14:09:14 +0200, Alexander wrote in message 
> <20160720120914.gc25...@smithers.snow-crash.org>:
> 
> > On Wed, 20 Jul 2016, Arnt Karlsen wrote:
> > 
> > > On Wed, 20 Jul 2016 09:25:39 +0200, Klaus wrote in message 
> > > <33d1c1ed-16ae-e76a-9086-e770b0d99...@arcor.de>:
> > > 
> > > > 
> > > > Michael Prokop schrieb am 19.07.2016 um 23:22:
> > > > > * Klaus Fuerstberger [Mon Jul 18, 2016 at 09:41:01AM +0200]:
> > > > > 
> > > > >> as I could not post a blog comment at
> > > > >> http://blog.grml.org/archives/394-Is-Grml-still-alive.html I
> > > > >> want to leave a comment to this article here.
> > > > > 
> > > > >> Many thanks for grml all over the years. Please keep on
> > > > >> providing new releases without systemd packages. There is no
> > > > >> need for this bloated piece of software for a text based
> > > > >> distribution for system admins. Maybe you can base grml on
> > > > >> devuan, a systemd-free, debian-based distribution in the
> > > > >> future? https://devuan.org/ I am sure that you will get help
> > > > >> there if there are any questions.
> > > > > 
> > > > > JFTR, we definitely plan to ship Grml *with* systemd, because
> > > > > that is the way to go for us and also gives people remastering
> > > > > Grml even more flexibility WRT service startups, independent
> > > > > from our default configuration.
> > > > 
> > > > You made Grml for people to be flexible in remastering it? I think
> > > > Grml was, and is complete as it is. If I want to add a daemon at
> > > > startup I need no systemd to successful remastering Grml. But of
> > > > course it is your decision.
> > > > 
> > > > > If you're interested in a Grml flavor *without* systemd you're
> > > > > invited to work on that, you might be also interested in
> > > > > picking up file-rc as upstream respectively package maintainer
> > > > > (file-rc being the init system we relied on so far and where no
> > > > > maintainer seems to be present anymore, esp. once both Alex and
> > > > > me will orphan it).
> > > > 
> > > > Thanks for the invitation to maintain Grml with sysvinit. But I
> > > > will not have the time to maintain such a big change alone. But
> > > > as grml is also listed in
> > > > http://without-systemd.org/wiki/index.php/Main_Page#GNU.2FLinux_distributions
> > > > I send a copy of this post to the devuan mailing list. Maybe there
> > > > will be someone who is using Grml and interested to keep this
> > > > systemd free.
> > > 
> > > ..looks like Grml is a loss: http://bts.grml.org/grml/issue1568 
> > > Pity.  https://duckduckgo.com/?q=alternatives+to+udev=web
> > > 
> > > ..systemd, udev etc pötterication has no more tech etc merit than
> > > e.g. Erdogan's ban on Turk academics going on e.g. vacation abroad. 
> > > 
> > 
> > Please don't Cc our mailinglist again. 
> 
> ..from which mailing list am I now being banished? ;o)
> I am aware I am not welcome on Debian mailing lists due to my knowledge
> of banana republic politics and how they brought systemd upon Debian,
> and therefore didn't cc any Debian mailing lists. ;o)
You are also not welcome on grml mailinglists.

Alex
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[DNG] Work with lists.dyne.org

[uhtlmk]

Hi all!

I've a question about how to work with the list: Is there a way to
search an archive of lists and/or single messages for certain topics.

Background: Some time ago i asked about overheating and i got some very
helpful replies - but unfortunately i lost the file where i saved
them :-(

Thanks a lot in advance!
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Re: [DNG] [Grml] Is grml still alive

[Alexander Wirt]

On Wed, 20 Jul 2016, Arnt Karlsen wrote:

> On Wed, 20 Jul 2016 09:25:39 +0200, Klaus wrote in message 
> <33d1c1ed-16ae-e76a-9086-e770b0d99...@arcor.de>:
> 
> > 
> > Michael Prokop schrieb am 19.07.2016 um 23:22:
> > > * Klaus Fuerstberger [Mon Jul 18, 2016 at 09:41:01AM +0200]:
> > > 
> > >> as I could not post a blog comment at
> > >> http://blog.grml.org/archives/394-Is-Grml-still-alive.html I want
> > >> to leave a comment to this article here.
> > > 
> > >> Many thanks for grml all over the years. Please keep on providing
> > >> new releases without systemd packages. There is no need for this
> > >> bloated piece of software for a text based distribution for system
> > >> admins. Maybe you can base grml on devuan, a systemd-free,
> > >> debian-based distribution in the future? https://devuan.org/ I am
> > >> sure that you will get help there if there are any questions.
> > > 
> > > JFTR, we definitely plan to ship Grml *with* systemd, because that
> > > is the way to go for us and also gives people remastering Grml even
> > > more flexibility WRT service startups, independent from our default
> > > configuration.
> > 
> > You made Grml for people to be flexible in remastering it? I think
> > Grml was, and is complete as it is. If I want to add a daemon at
> > startup I need no systemd to successful remastering Grml. But of
> > course it is your decision.
> > 
> > > If you're interested in a Grml flavor *without* systemd you're
> > > invited to work on that, you might be also interested in picking up
> > > file-rc as upstream respectively package maintainer (file-rc being
> > > the init system we relied on so far and where no maintainer seems to
> > > be present anymore, esp. once both Alex and me will orphan it).
> > 
> > Thanks for the invitation to maintain Grml with sysvinit. But I will
> > not have the time to maintain such a big change alone. But as grml is
> > also listed in
> > http://without-systemd.org/wiki/index.php/Main_Page#GNU.2FLinux_distributions
> > I send a copy of this post to the devuan mailing list. Maybe there
> > will be someone who is using Grml and interested to keep this systemd
> > free.
> 
> ..looks like Grml is a loss: http://bts.grml.org/grml/issue1568 
> Pity.  https://duckduckgo.com/?q=alternatives+to+udev=web
> 
> ..systemd, udev etc pötterication has no more tech etc merit than e.g. 
> Erdogan's ban on Turk academics going on e.g. vacation abroad.
> 
> -- 
> ..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt Karlsen
> ...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry...
>   Scenarios always come in sets of three: 
>   best case, worst case, and just in case.
Please don't Cc our mailinglist again. 

Alex

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[DNG] configure a wifi connection from commandline

[uhtlmk]

I installed a basic devuan ascii to qemu and hopefully i went to /etc
to configure from the commandline a working wireless connection. But,
nada - there is no wpa_supplicant (which i expected to be there).

Now, may be/of course in devuan/debian there is another way to set up a
connection: Would someone be so kind and point me to a link wwith a
good instruction?

Thanks a lot in advance!
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Re: [DNG] [Kali Linux 0003165]: Find a way to disable most services by default with systemd

[sam]

On Mon, 11 Jul 2016 23:06:24 +0200
Jaromil  wrote:

> 
> Mostly for historical reasons, I'm posting here below the trace of a
> Kali Linux bug that has just been deleted from their tracker.
> 
> Forensic distros are useful for many reasons. When minimal they can be
> also more reliable, I guess most people here convenes.  So now I'm
> trying to get the Parrot OS developers interested in having a spin
> based on Devuan, with no success. Unfortunately Their parrot-build
> scripts are admittedly still incomplete to reproduce a release.
> 
> Anyone here has a strong (perhaps professional, hence sustainable)
> interest in a forensic distro without systemd?
> 

YES!

I've previously tried a number of the available forensic Linux options, but I 
succeded in breaking every one of them when I tried to gut them of their 
systemd payloads. I'd really love a Devuan-based forensic suite, or even 
something like Whonix but without the systemd cruft.

Alas, my interest is not presently a professionally-motivated or directed one 
(though that may change soon enough, stranger things may happen and all that), 
however I would greatly appreciate having a non-systemd castrated (and in 
particular Devuan) forensic distro in my toolbox which I have thoroughly tested 
and deployed prior to that happening.

How shall we make it so?

--Sam

 
> - Forwarded message from Kali Linux Bug Tracker
>  -
> 
> Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2016 20:59:28 +0100
> From: Kali Linux Bug Tracker 
> To: jaro...@dyne.org
> Subject: [Kali Linux 0003165]: Find a way to disable most services by
> default with systemd
> 
> 
> The following issue has been DELETED. 
> == 
> Reported By:newhack
> Assigned To:rhertzog
> == 
> Project:Kali Linux
> Issue ID:   3165
> Category:   Kali Package Bug
> Reproducibility:always
> Severity:   minor
> Priority:   normal
> Status: resolved
> Target Version: 2.0
> Resolution: fixed
> Fixed in Version:   2016.2
> == 
> Date Submitted: 2016-03-17 06:26 GMT
> Last Modified:  2016-03-17 06:26 GMT
> == 
> Summary:Find a way to disable most services by
> default with systemd
> Description: 
> Kali forks update-rc.d to disable most services that depend on
> $network to avoid having services be accessible without any admin
> configuration.
> 
> Kali Rolling switched to systemd and the hack in update-rc.d is now
> mostly useless. We must find a new solution for this.
> == 
> 
> -- 
>  (0004946) rhertzog (administrator) - 2014-12-08 14:25
>  https://bugs.kali.org/view.php?id=3165#c4946 
> -- 
> It looks like that the proper answer is using a "preset" file:
> http://freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/systemd/Preset/
> 
> This answers at least how to not enable services by default. But it
> doesn't answer how to not start any service in "forensic" mode. This
> is probably implemented with a different "target" at boot time. 
> 
> -- 
>  (0004945) rhertzog (administrator) - 2014-12-09 09:10
>  https://bugs.kali.org/view.php?id=3165#c4945 
> -- 
> Unfortunately, it looks like we can't use Preset file in Debian
> currently. I just filed a bug about this:
> https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=772555 
> 
> -- 
>  (0004947) rhertzog (administrator) - 2015-03-25 06:05
>  https://bugs.kali.org/view.php?id=3165#c4947 
> -- 
> It looks like most of the services are still properly disabled thanks
> to some systemd/update-rc.d integration. But there are corner cases
> when the packages ships a .service file that does not have the same
> name as the init script.
> 
> I just filed http://bugs.debian.org/781155 on openbsd-inetd for
> example. And also the update-rc.d integration with systemd is
> somewhat problematic: http://bugs.debian.org/746580 
> 
> -- 
>  (0004948) jaromil (reporter) - 2015-07-22 11:30
>  https://bugs.kali.org/view.php?id=3165#c4948 
> -- 
> Hi there and apologies for slight 

Re: [DNG] LyX questions on LaTeX-community.org

[Richard Heck]

On 06/09/2016 04:52 PM, Steve Litt wrote:
> On Thu, 9 Jun 2016 16:50:16 +1200
> gordon cooper  wrote:
>
>> On 09/06/16 02:59, Richard Heck wrote:
>>> Alternatively---here's a crazy idea---we could suspend the mailing
>>> list and send people to the forum
>>>
>>> Richard
>>>
>>>  
>> Perhaps not really crazy at all.  I  work in both mail lists and 
>> forums and I definitely prefer working in a forum.
>>
>> Although, a big problem here could be how best use the
>> existing mail-list archive.
> As soon as Fetchmail and a mail client and filters are set up, every
> message of every mailing list to which one subscribes is presented, in
> its proper folder, without human intervention.
>
> With forums, one needs to remember to browse each forum, usually
> requiring a login with a password. Often, much more often than mailing
> lists, you're required to agree to pretty iffy legal terms, often
> including your indemnifying (acting as an unpaid insurance company for)
> the forum owners, and perhaps binding arbitration.
>
> There's a reason mailing lists have gotten the Free Software movement
> from 1992-present: It's easy, it's automatic, and the information comes
> to you instead of having to go out and get it.
>
> I can understand adding a Forum, but can't fathom the logic behind in
> any way demoting an existing and well used mailing list.
>
> I'm copying the Devuan mailing list because some of these same issues
> have come up there.

Diff'rent strokes, I suppose.

rh

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[DNG] How do I install Devuan NOW

[terryc]

After looking before and following the instructions there, I've
upgraded Debian wheezy to Debian Jessie and apparently that isn't
how you do it now.

So what am I supposed to do now?
I'm looking for a set of migration steps that don't involve blowing
stuff away and loading an iso.

On a side question, how do you permanently lock a Debian:Jessie system
to boot the system-init(?) boot up. I had a look but my old knowledge
of editing grub.conf doesn't appear to apply.

T.I.A
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[DNG] comunity driven repositories

[uhtlmk]

Hello list!

Is it possible/wished to have comunity driven repositories for devuan?
Background: trying to put together the stuff to make a viable JWM
desktop for devuan, i realize there are some key
applications/scripts/tools which are *NOT* in the devuan repositories
(not even in testing or unstable). So, how one could play around that
problem?

Thanks a lot in advance for your patience.
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[DNG] man init

[Friedhelm Mehnert]

On Fri, 3 Jun 2016 21:10:05 -1000
Joel Roth  wrote:

> My system is devuan/jessie, upgraded from debian.
>
> It's interesting that 'man init' brings up the
> systemd man page.
>

On my systems, upgraded from Wheezy I get the INIT(8) manpage.

Regards Friedhelm


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[DNG] task-lxde-desktop is needed?

[uhtlmk]

When i removed slim i saw the package task-lxde-desktop was removed as
well. I checked a bit and i saw:


This package is used to install Devuan desktop, featuring the LXDE
desktop environment, and with other packages that Devuan users expect
to have available on the desktop


It depends on tasksel, task-desktop, lxde and slim. Moreover it
recommends a long list of software. Is such a package really necessary?
I'd think lxde as a metapackage already pulls in all what is needed for
the lxde desktop - also in Devuan. Or are there some hidden
dependencies on systemd which need to be overwritten?
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[DNG] Is lxdm in backports?

[uhtlmk]

I cannot see, if lxdm login manager is in the backports (?). As for me,
i had to get it from the ascii repositories. 

With this login manager i solved the exit/logout problems i had with
slim *AND* lightdm (light is an euphemism!). And by the way i saw,lxdm
isn't somuch heavvier than slim. May be it is a good option (at least
for me it is). So it would be nice to have it available by default even
in stable.
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Re: [DNG] Logout problem

[uhtlmk]

Some time ago Ozi Traveller helped me out for my logout problem sending
me 2 desktop environment independent logout tools (cb-exit and
oblogout, which essentially do the same, only oblogout is a bit more
eye candy). I had some problems with them but solved by changing the
localauthority settings of polkit.

Now, i have the chance to access my manjaro-openrc machine and i see
they do use oblogout in a slightly different manner: For them, oblogout
works as a kind of skin over a script called "fluxboxexit" (which
adresses both, systemd and openrc. For those interested, you can look
at it here: http://hastebin.com/ufeluvobiw.rb). The /etc/oblogout.conf
then look like this:

---
[settings]
usehal = false

[looks]
opacity = 40
bgcolor = black
# buttontheme = 
buttontheme = foom
buttons = lock, logout, switch, suspend, hibernate, restart, shutdown,
cancel

[shortcuts]
lock = K
logout = L
switch = W
suspend = U
hibernate = H
restart = R
shutdown = S
cancel = Escape

[commands]
lock = ob_blurlock
logout = fluxboxexit logout
switch = dm-tool switch-to-greeter
suspend = fluxboxexit suspend
hibernate = fluxboxexit hibernate
restart = fluxboxexit reboot
shutdown = fluxboxexit shutdown
---

May be it's not that bad as an idea?
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Re: [DNG] Pulseaudio ...

[Dan Purgert]

uht...@posteo.de wrote:
> Is pulseaudio necessary?

I don't have it installed here; so I suppose "no".
Admittedly, I could be wrong (or missing some context).
 
-- 
Registered Linux user #585947
Github: https://github.com/dpurgert


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Re: [DNG] Bug#832508: O: systemd-shim -- SysVinit shim for systemd

[Rick Moen]

Quoting Adam Borowski (kilob...@angband.pl):

> I'd propose giving them some gasoline to burn systemd-shim with.  It's a
> tool to run *drumroll* systemd on a system not yet running it as pid 1.

*headdesk*

Um, no.  

systemd-shim is/was a third-party Canonical, Ltd. (now apparently orphaned) 
codebase,
that until recently also had a surviving fork maintained by a Debian
Project package maintainer, that permitted certain GNOME and XFCE
applications such as gnome-shell, that otherwise would require systemd
(because those applications invoke GNOME login and power-management
services), to function without systemd.  That secondary fork is now also 
orphaned.

In the model that systemd-shim supported, GNOME/XFCE talks to
systemd-logind, which talks to systemd-shim (instead of systemd).  (Some
KDE4 stuff is also affected.)

My personal solution is:  _Don't use_ those particular GNOME/XFCE (and KDE4) 
codebases.
They have proven to be dependency hairballs, and that is never IMO going
to get fixed.

gnome-shell is not your friend -- but the reason is _not_ it being a
'tool to run systemd on a system not yet running it as PID 1', as that
is simply not the case.

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Re: [DNG] Ugly, ugly news

[Rick Moen]

Quoting Edward Bartolo (edb...@gmail.com):

> The above quote clearly contradicts the scope of Debian Social Contract.
> https://www.debian.org/social_contract

Ummm...

> Item no: 4 is in contradiction of what you are claiming.
> 
> Quote from Debian Social Contract:
> <<
> Our priorities are our users and free software

Guess what?  They do what they think is best, and claim it best meets the needs 
of 
their users and the free software community.

You don't think what they do best meets the needs of their users and
the free software community.  They think they do.

Was this actually difficult to figure out?

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Re: [DNG] Bug#832508: O: systemd-shim -- SysVinit shim for systemd

[Adam Borowski]

On Thu, Jul 28, 2016 at 05:12:13PM +, Go Linux wrote:
> Regarding https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=832508 on the 
> demise of systemd-shim.  Posting here because it's unlikely many will see a 
> post to devuan-discuss (if it ever gets approved).

> Message #10 received at 832...@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):
> From: "Iain R. Learmonth" 
> On 26/07/16 10:09, Martin Pitt wrote:
> > Neither Steve nor I still have any interest in maintaining
> > systemd-shim. Debian's default init system is systemd, Ubuntu supports
> > nothing else any more (and does not even have systemd-shim any more),
> > upstart is gone from both Debian and Ubuntu, so the only use case for
> > it right now is running Debian with SysVinit (in particular, on
> > non-Linux flavors).
> 
> Just a suggestion, but maybe ping a Devuan mailing list. If those guys
> are interested in continuing to support sysvinit then maybe they would
> be happy to take this.
> 
> I'd much prefer to see efforts within Debian that can benefit a wider
> community than hacks patched on top that only benefit a smaller group.

I'd propose giving them some gasoline to burn systemd-shim with.  It's a
tool to run *drumroll* systemd on a system not yet running it as pid 1.
With a good part of systemd's downsides, none of the benefits.

And, what's worse, its presence allowed many packages to introduce absolute
dependencies on systemd (usually via libpam-systemd).

-- 
An imaginary friend squared is a real enemy.
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Re: [DNG] Ugly, ugly news

[Rick Moen]

Quoting Rowland Penny (rpenny241...@gmail.com):

> It is a very stupid organisation that doesn't listen to its users,
> you can make the best thing in the world (and systemd certainly
> isn't that), but if a lot of your users don't want it, you are in
> trouble.

And this is because all 'organisations' (software projects?) have a
pragmatic need to accumulate as many users as possible?

If you think about it, you'll realise that this is completely untrue in
open source, where the zero-sum loyalty game that typifies the
proprietary software market just doesn't apply.  The history of open
source is crammed with successful codebase projects that make a group of
devotees happy and meet their needs, and neither feel a need to maximise
adoption nor would particularly benefit from doing so (at least, as far
as they can see).

There are many moves open source organisations make that I'd call
profoundly stupid, and the Debian Project IMO has made some truly epic
mistakes in recent years, but failing to listen to what they quite
reasonably see as outsider advocacy pitches (which you call 'listening
to its users') is not among them.

Separately from and in addition to that, I'll just mention in passing
that trying to harangue groups of volunteers into caring about concerns
_you_ care about and they don't, just doesn't work.  Looking at the
train-wreck on debian-user a few years ago (via the Web archives, as I
was never on that damned forum) showed a number of people who appeared
to be failing to understand this basic fact, for years on end.

I actually have a theory about this.

I think a lot of the unpleasant strife on the Internet results from
miscommunication between process people and non-process people.  

What I call a 'process person' is one who is comfortable thinking in
terms of stepwise chronologically sequential mechanism.  A is a
necessary preconditon of B, which can be made to cause C, all of which
is an efficient path to bring about D.  a 'non-process person' is one
whose mind doesn't think that way.  Lacking (pick any N) aptitude,
attitude, and/or patience to deal in mechanism, they go around talking
about how wonderful D would be and how something-never-mind-what-and-how
should make D happen.

Process thinkers should be kind to the other folks and say 'You may be
right.  D might be lovely, and I do hope you get what you want.'
Non-process thinkers should be understanding of the other folks (the
ones who actually _do_ things) and realise that sometimes they just
aren't going to do D because they'd rather do something else, and stop
getting upset over this.

I do hope you get what you want.

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Re: [DNG] Why Debian 8 Pinning is (or isn't) pointless

[Marlon Nunes]

On 2016-07-28 10:16, Steve Litt wrote:

On Thu, 28 Jul 2016 00:48:12 -0700
Rick Moen  wrote:


Quoting Simon Hobson (li...@thehobsons.co.uk):

> I too did some checking. From practical experience, one of the
> ClamAV packages (IIRC it's clamd) has a hard dependency on
> libsystemd0. Using dpkg --force-depends to install only that
> package without having libsystemd0 installed results in ... it
> failing at startup because it can't open the library.

Out of curiosity, then, what happens if a file exists and can be
opened but isn't libsystemd0?  [Late addendum:  The ClamAV developer
_already gave you a better and cleaner solution_, which you haven't
bothered to mention here.  Any special reason why you omitted that?
I'll fill that in below, in more late-addendum comments.]

Like, find the tiniest lib with fewest functions you can, and cp it
to /lib/[$ARCH]/libsystemd.so.[version] ?

It would be interesting to find whether this package actually _uses_
anything within libsystemd0 -- which would AFAIK be futile if systemd
isn't present -- or whether it merely (a) checks that a library exists
and is openable (dlopen) or whether (b) it looks up symbols/functions
inside the library (dlsym).

One of the ClamAV upstream developers claims it's in effect (a),
saying 'it doesn't do anything if systemd isn't the active init
system'. But you already knew this because the person he said it to
was you.
http://lists.clamav.net/pipermail/clamav-users/2015-June/001592.html

[Late addendum:  And, oh, wait:  The same developer _also_ already
told you that you could make the problem go away by using the
'equivs' trick -- which I have discussed before.
http://lists.clamav.net/pipermail/clamav-users/2015-June/001601.html
So, basically, you're claiming this is a huge unsolvable problem even
though the developer handed you a solution on a platter, that you're
not bothering to mention here.  I see.  Meanwhile, let's go on with
the reply as I originally drafted it:]


If the above test works, and I strongly suspect it would, then it's
probably not hard to come up with smoother and more automatable ways.
However, if I _did_ need package clamav (which I don't), _and_ if I
were feeling paranoid about libsystemd0 (which I don't), then I'd
just grab the package source and rebuild it using the debuild utility
to omit the pointless and annoying library dependency and work around
the packaging bullshit.  And using debuild is not exactly brain
surgery; a link to a page that walks you through that is part of my
OpenRC conversion page.

Please note that I do _not_ assert in any way that it's A Good Thing
that you might be driven to do this (if you are paranoid about
libsystemd0, which I consider a bit irrational).  I'd certainly prefer
if you didn't.  Fortunately, short of that, rebuilding packages
locally is a pretty easy second way.


> I opened a bug, which was very quickly and quite abusively closed as
> "won't fix", and was also told that "it doesn't work like that"
> when I asked if (especially as it was supposedly only one call they
> ever made on non-systemd systems) why they couldn't do "if exists
> libsystemd0 then ..." - something which I now know is possible if
> the dev/packager cares about it.

[Late addendum:  The upstream developer's attitude is annoying, but on
the other hand you also didn't tell the whole truth about your
discussion with him, did you, now?  I also note in passing that you
portrayed this as a problem with the ClamAV 'package', which is a bit
misleading, as the origin of your problem wasn't with a distro
packaging policy but rather upstream.]


> So after all this, I think I see where some of this division comes
> from ...  You *appear* to have been working on the basis that it's a
> "non problem" because the testing you did showed it to be so - for
> your use case.

No, that is _not_ what I said -- and I have said it quite a number of
times and am getting rather tired of having to repeat it.

I perceive it to be not a problem worth spending time on (which is not
the same as 'non problem') because the specific contents of this
library mean it is completely innocuous on a system lacking systemd,
in pretty much exactly the same way that the Kerberos libraries --
pulled in by an essentially bogus library dependency of package
ssh-client on my Kerberos-less system -- are completely innocuous on
a system lacking Kerberos because of their specific contents.

(The self-parodying bullshit objection of 'In the future, horrible
evil things might be put into the library because of horrible evil
package maintainers colluding with horrible evil upstream and the
inability of the entire Linux community to discover what has
happened' has already been addressed upthread.)


> Some of us have been working on the basis that it *is* a problem
> because our testing shows it to be so - for our use cases.

At the risk of speaking a bit sharply for a moment:  Looks to me like
you've also not bothered how to figure 

Re: [DNG] Ugly, ugly news

[Steve Litt]

On Thu, 28 Jul 2016 11:37:48 -0700
Rick Moen  wrote:


> Thus, I'm rather surprised that some members (and ejected ex-members,
> like Steve Litt) of debian-users seriously expected protracted
> lobbying by them as non-members of the project was any sort of
> pragmatic plan. 

When I was excommunicated in late October 2014, I'd been in the Debian
world for 10 months. I had no idea what the modern Debian project was
like, my opinions of Debian were formed in the 20th century. Debian
changed.

Nevertheless, I think our "protracted lobbying" (which is a very nice
way to characterize it) caused Ian Jackson to issue the GR. Had we won
that GR, we'd be in a very different world. We came close, our efforts
were repelled, we made our own plans.
 
SteveT

Steve Litt 
July 2016 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques
 of the Successful Technologist
http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques
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Re: [DNG] Linux-Speakup-friendly emails: was question about, mailing lists

[aitor_czr]

On 07/28/2016 10:05 PM, aitor_czr wrote:

On 07/28/2016 05:42 PM, Steve Litt  wrote:

On Thu, 28 Jul 2016 12:03:59 +0200
Jaromil wrote:


>To this let me add that some valuable members of our community have
>low vision, plus Devuan Minimal Live has been optimised explicitly for
>the Linux-Speakup community. Therefore any attention to concise and
>meaningful quoting is appreciated and helps inclusion. It is also
>advisable to avoid dragging long threads with replies which are not
>particularly informative. Let minimalism and elegance be the guiding
>principles for our communication, not just our distribution :^)

If I lose much more visual acuity, I'll be doing the Linux-Speakup
thing too. I didn't know about it before this email.

So let me ask you: What standards of quoting are compatible with
Linux-Speakup, and could you please elaborate on concise and
meaningful quoting as it relates to people reading my replies with
Linux-Speakup?

Thanks,

SteveT


I don't know anything about Linux-Speakup :-(

  Aitor. 


This is what i find:

http://linux-speakup.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo

  Aitor.



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Re: [DNG] Ugly, ugly news

[Edward Bartolo]

Hi,

Rick Moen wrote:

<<
It would be pretty much normal and expected for the Debian Project.  It
has always made it pretty obvious that it's a community of developers
who run it to serve their own perceived needs.  And that's pretty much
inevitable, given its parliamentary structure and governance mechanisms.
>>

The above quote clearly contradicts the scope of Debian Social Contract.
https://www.debian.org/social_contract

Item no: 4 is in contradiction of what you are claiming.

Quote from Debian Social Contract:
<<
Our priorities are our users and free software

We will be guided by the needs of our users and the free software
community. We will place their interests first in our priorities. We
will support the needs of our users for operation in many different
kinds of computing environments. We will not object to non-free works
that are intended to be used on Debian systems, or attempt to charge a
fee to people who create or use such works. We will allow others to
create distributions containing both the Debian system and other
works, without any fee from us. In furtherance of these goals, we will
provide an integrated system of high-quality materials with no legal
restrictions that would prevent such uses of the system.
>>

Edward
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Re: [DNG] Linux-Speakup-friendly emails: was question about, mailing lists

[aitor_czr]

On 07/28/2016 05:42 PM, Steve Litt  wrote:

On Thu, 28 Jul 2016 12:03:59 +0200
Jaromil  wrote:


>To this let me add that some valuable members of our community have
>low vision, plus Devuan Minimal Live has been optimised explicitly for
>the Linux-Speakup community. Therefore any attention to concise and
>meaningful quoting is appreciated and helps inclusion. It is also
>advisable to avoid dragging long threads with replies which are not
>particularly informative. Let minimalism and elegance be the guiding
>principles for our communication, not just our distribution :^)

If I lose much more visual acuity, I'll be doing the Linux-Speakup
thing too. I didn't know about it before this email.

So let me ask you: What standards of quoting are compatible with
Linux-Speakup, and could you please elaborate on concise and
meaningful quoting as it relates to people reading my replies with
Linux-Speakup?

Thanks,

SteveT


I don't know anything about Linux-Speakup :-(

  Aitor.



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Re: [DNG] Ugly, ugly news

[Rowland Penny]

On 28/07/16 19:37, Rick Moen wrote:

It would be pretty much normal and expected for the Debian Project.  It
has always made it pretty obvious that it's a community of developers
who run it to serve their own perceived needs.  And that's pretty much
inevitable, given its parliamentary structure and governance mechanisms.

I would not have expected them to pay a lot of attention to _my_
opinions, for example.


It is a very stupid organisation that doesn't listen to it's users, you 
can make the best thing in the world (and systemd certainly isn't that), 
but if a lot of your users don't want it, you are in trouble.


Rowland

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Re: [DNG] Ugly, ugly news

[Rick Moen]

Quoting Rob Owens (robowen...@gmail.com):

> I would have to say no.  I was on debian-user, and saw no poll.  There was
> a lot of discussion, and the anti-systemd folks were largely ignored or
> told "go away, you're bothering us".  I subscribed to debian-devel to
> monitor and discuss the situation, but my impression there was that the
> opinions of non-developers were largely ignored.

It would be pretty much normal and expected for the Debian Project.  It
has always made it pretty obvious that it's a community of developers
who run it to serve their own perceived needs.  And that's pretty much
inevitable, given its parliamentary structure and governance mechanisms.

I would not have expected them to pay a lot of attention to _my_
opinions, for example.  I'm on debian-devel, debian-security, and (I
just remembered) debian-legal; I rarely speak on any of them, and don't
expect what I say to have _political_ influence, but occasionally I have
influence because what I say has resonated with the perceived best
interests of the project's developers, i.e., I'm understood to be
speaking as a member of the surrounding open source community, and I get
listened to if I say something that makes sense for _them_, the
developers.

Thus, I'm rather surprised that some members (and ejected ex-members, like
Steve Litt) of debian-users seriously expected protracted lobbying by
them as non-members of the project was any sort of pragmatic plan. 
(I don't mean you personally; see below.)  I mean, I'm not trying to put
salt in wounds, here -- and obiously some folks are still sore about
that -- but the utter, total predictable-in-advance futility of trying
to batter down the political direction of Debian Project as outsiders
posting advocacy screeds to debian-user strikes me as pretty obvious.

Thus, I'm still a quizzical over the question about whether there was a
poll of Debian _users_.  (Except that it was based on someone's
overreading of a blog post by some nobody-in-particular commenter, so
there's that.)

> There were a couple people who I heard arguing for systemd because of some
> particular useful feature.  But most of the arguments that I heard from
> developers in favor of systemd was that it would be too hard not to adopt
> systemd as default.

The metaphor of 'too big to fail' comes readily to mind, doesn't it?
Lock-in.  Exactly where one (IMO, as also your opinion) would want to
say 'Gosh, this sounds like an excellent reason to _not_ adopt it.'

> We all know that systemd's plan all along has been to make resistance
> futile, so I won't get into that.  But when somebody tries to tie my hands,
> I try to stop it.  Unfortunately most of the Debian developers (at least
> the vocal ones) did not share my view.

Let's try to see this in perspective, shall we?  This group _here_ has
strong views on init systems.  Your bog-standard specimen among the
~1,000 Debian developers almost certainly knows almost nothing about
init systems -- even now, but especially then -- pretty much the same as
your bog-standard Linux user. 

I'd guess that those who 'didn't share your view' saw the entire thing
as just a nuisance that had little or nothing to do with the packages
they maintained, that involved fighting over an obscure bit of system
plumbing that they had little understanding of or concern over, and they
mostly just powerfully resented having their time consumed over
bickering.

Hit frazzled developers with a couple of years of mostly stupid and
often childish fighting, where all substantive information was buried in
a thick cloud of angry advocacy noise, and they have a tendency to get
peevish and just take the easiest and shortest available path to make
the whole matter go away.  Which is what happened, to make a long story
short.

I don't know why anyone is _surprised_.  Disappointment (what _you_ said)
is fine, annoyance is justified, but surprise seems to evince
startlingly little understanding of how political groups of technical
individuals tends to function -- especially when spoken by a political
group of technical individuals.

Present company (you) emphatically excepted, as you said just
'disheartening', rather than shocking/surprising.  It was and is (IMO)
indeed that.


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Re: [DNG] Bug#832508: O: systemd-shim -- SysVinit shim for systemd

[Go Linux]

Regarding https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=832508 on the 
demise of systemd-shim.  Posting here because it's unlikely many will see a 
post to devuan-discuss (if it ever gets approved).

golinux

--

Message #10 received at 832...@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):
From: "Iain R. Learmonth" 
To: Martin Pitt , 832...@bugs.debian.org
Subject: Re: Bug#832508: O: systemd-shim -- SysVinit shim for systemd
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2016 15:33:43 +0100

Hi,

On 26/07/16 10:09, Martin Pitt wrote:
> Package: wnpp
> 
> Neither Steve nor I still have any interest in maintaining
> systemd-shim. Debian's default init system is systemd, Ubuntu supports
> nothing else any more (and does not even have systemd-shim any more),
> upstart is gone from both Debian and Ubuntu, so the only use case for
> it right now is running Debian with SysVinit (in particular, on
> non-Linux flavors).

Just a suggestion, but maybe ping a Devuan mailing list. If those guys
are interested in continuing to support sysvinit then maybe they would
be happy to take this.

I'd much prefer to see efforts within Debian that can benefit a wider
community than hacks patched on top that only benefit a smaller group.

Thanks,
Iain.


Message #15 received at 832...@bugs.debian.org (full text, mbox, reply):
From: Martin Pitt 
To: "Iain R. Learmonth" 
Cc: 832...@bugs.debian.org
Subject: Re: Bug#832508: O: systemd-shim -- SysVinit shim for systemd
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2016 16:47:51 +0200

Hello Iain,

Iain R. Learmonth [2016-07-26 15:33 +0100]:
> Just a suggestion, but maybe ping a Devuan mailing list.

Good idea, I sent it to
https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/list/devuan-discuss.en.html
(might take a bit to appear, I'm not subscribed).

Martin

-- 
Martin Pitt| http://www.piware.de
Ubuntu Developer (www.ubuntu.com)  | Debian Developer  (www.debian.org)








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Re: [DNG] Why Debian 8 Pinning is (or isn't) pointless

[info at smallinnovations.nl]

On 28-07-16 11:33, Rick Moen wrote:


'Building custom packages' is a rather inventively melodramatic
exaggeration of auto-rebuilding a .deb with one spurious lib dependency
disabled, and the 'live grenade' imagery in that specific context is
patently ridiculous.

But hey, if you'd rather sit on your tochis and wait for someone else to
do it for you, I'll not deter you.

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I am a sysadmin myself and why in hell would i like to rebuild local 
packages? I simply want a distro without systemd.


When i cannot get one i will start pinning or rebuild local packages but 
not one moment earlier. And I am quite comfortable with one of the BSD's 
too so it will take a very long time before that to happen.


Grtz.

Nick

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Re: [DNG] Ugly, ugly news

[Rob Owens]

On Tue, Jul 26, 2016 at 12:00 AM, Simon Walter  wrote:

> On 07/26/2016 12:28 PM, Brad Campbell wrote:
>
>> On 26/07/16 10:27, Simon Walter wrote:
>>
>> Is that really the case? Did the Debian leadership do a poll to find out
>>> what their users wanted and who were their typical users?
>>> Desktop/personal vs. server/professional?
>>>
>>
> yes/no?
>
> I would have to say no.  I was on debian-user, and saw no poll.  There was
a lot of discussion, and the anti-systemd folks were largely ignored or
told "go away, you're bothering us".  I subscribed to debian-devel to
monitor and discuss the situation, but my impression there was that the
opinions of non-developers were largely ignored.

There were a couple people who I heard arguing for systemd because of some
particular useful feature.  But most of the arguments that I heard from
developers in favor of systemd was that it would be too hard not to adopt
systemd as default.

We all know that systemd's plan all along has been to make resistance
futile, so I won't get into that.  But when somebody tries to tie my hands,
I try to stop it.  Unfortunately most of the Debian developers (at least
the vocal ones) did not share my view.  It was very disheartening to see,
and it really changed my opinion of the project as a whole.

For the record, I ran (past tense) Debian on desktops, laptops, and
servers.  The obvious attempt by systemd to make itself a requirement was
the first thing that made me suspicious about the project.  I've since
become more informed on the issue of init systems and now have many
technical reasons to dislike it as well.

-Rob
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Re: [DNG] Why Debian 8 Pinning is (or isn't) pointless

[Hendrik Boom]

On Thu, Jul 28, 2016 at 02:33:31AM -0700, Rick Moen wrote:
> 
> But I'm getting the vibes that you are uninterested in 'overcoming
> dependency obstacles' through local system administration.  You'd rather 
> that someone else solves your problem.
> 
> I understand.  I'd like someone else to solve _my_ problems, too.  And
> I'd also like a Caterham, by the way.  (British Racing Green, like
> Patrick McGoohan's Lotus Super 7.  One of the ones with a Ford Zetec
> 1.4L engine is perfectly fine.  Right-hand drive is also fine; I'll
> sweet-talk the automotive grand panjandrums into letting me use it.)

Though I suspect no one is going to give you the car you'd like, the 
devuan developers are solving _his_ problems for him.  The fork is 
going to help some people.  I suspect there are enough of these people 
to make the fork worthwhile.  Of course I haven't taken a census, and I 
don't really know.

-- hendrik
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Re: [DNG] Why Debian 8 Pinning is (or isn't) pointless

[Simon Hobson]

Steve Litt  wrote:

> Which brings us full circle. Simon doesn't want to keep playing these
> games, wondering what kind of workaround he'll need next, as Lennart
> decides to subsume yet another Linux functionality, or Debian's "DDs"
> make yet another poor decision on dependencies. So he chose to go with
> the fork.
> 
> I don't have the tech chops to know all the various ways Lennart can
> screw up my life, nor do I have the technical chops to know (without
> huge experimentation) how to work around Lennart's latest incursion. I
> know the incursions will keep on coming, so why in the world would I
> subject myself to them? Therefore, to my limited ability, I help the
> guys who made the fork, and recommend the fork to those not compatible
> with Void or Funtoo or PC-BSD (and most Linux users aren't compatible
> with those).

What he said :-)   ^^^

> And then there's this: I don't know anything about Simon's feelings,
> but Debian's actions of 2014 disgust me. For me, continuing to use
> Debian is an impossibility. Stupid technology comes and goes, but
> betrayal is forever. They got arrogant, they got forked, and the
> resulting Devuan community is one of the best I've ever belonged to.

And that. Except it's not so much disgust, but disappointment - that a distro 
which had such high regard should allow itself to be dragged down this route.

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Re: [DNG] Linux-Speakup-friendly emails: was question about mailing lists

[Arnt Gulbrandsen]

Steve Litt writes:

So let me ask you: What standards of quoting are compatible with
Linux-Speakup, and could you please elaborate on concise and
meaningful quoting as it relates to people reading my replies with
Linux-Speakup?


Can't say about that specific reader, but in general, stick to RFC 3676 for 
parser happiness.


3676 is a slight variation of text/plain, with a specified quoting style 
and soft linebreaks. Blah blah SPCRLF blah is a soft linebreak, blah CRLF 
blah is a hard linebreak. It's really good for paragraph-oriented text, but 
poor for ASCII art.


Arnt

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[DNG] Linux-Speakup-friendly emails: was question about mailing lists

[Steve Litt]

On Thu, 28 Jul 2016 12:03:59 +0200
Jaromil  wrote:

> To this let me add that some valuable members of our community have
> low vision, plus Devuan Minimal Live has been optimised explicitly for
> the Linux-Speakup community. Therefore any attention to concise and
> meaningful quoting is appreciated and helps inclusion. It is also
> advisable to avoid dragging long threads with replies which are not
> particularly informative. Let minimalism and elegance be the guiding
> principles for our communication, not just our distribution :^)

If I lose much more visual acuity, I'll be doing the Linux-Speakup
thing too. I didn't know about it before this email.

So let me ask you: What standards of quoting are compatible with
Linux-Speakup, and could you please elaborate on concise and
meaningful quoting as it relates to people reading my replies with
Linux-Speakup?

Thanks,

SteveT

Steve Litt 
July 2016 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques
 of the Successful Technologist
http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques
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Re: [DNG] Why Debian 8 Pinning is (or isn't) pointless

[Steve Litt]

On Thu, 28 Jul 2016 00:48:12 -0700
Rick Moen  wrote:

> Quoting Simon Hobson (li...@thehobsons.co.uk):
> 
> > I too did some checking. From practical experience, one of the
> > ClamAV packages (IIRC it's clamd) has a hard dependency on
> > libsystemd0. Using dpkg --force-depends to install only that
> > package without having libsystemd0 installed results in ... it
> > failing at startup because it can't open the library.  
> 
> Out of curiosity, then, what happens if a file exists and can be
> opened but isn't libsystemd0?  [Late addendum:  The ClamAV developer 
> _already gave you a better and cleaner solution_, which you haven't
> bothered to mention here.  Any special reason why you omitted that?
> I'll fill that in below, in more late-addendum comments.]
> 
> Like, find the tiniest lib with fewest functions you can, and cp it
> to /lib/[$ARCH]/libsystemd.so.[version] ?  
> 
> It would be interesting to find whether this package actually _uses_
> anything within libsystemd0 -- which would AFAIK be futile if systemd
> isn't present -- or whether it merely (a) checks that a library exists
> and is openable (dlopen) or whether (b) it looks up symbols/functions
> inside the library (dlsym).
> 
> One of the ClamAV upstream developers claims it's in effect (a),
> saying 'it doesn't do anything if systemd isn't the active init
> system'. But you already knew this because the person he said it to
> was you.
> http://lists.clamav.net/pipermail/clamav-users/2015-June/001592.html
> 
> [Late addendum:  And, oh, wait:  The same developer _also_ already
> told you that you could make the problem go away by using the
> 'equivs' trick -- which I have discussed before.
> http://lists.clamav.net/pipermail/clamav-users/2015-June/001601.html 
> So, basically, you're claiming this is a huge unsolvable problem even
> though the developer handed you a solution on a platter, that you're
> not bothering to mention here.  I see.  Meanwhile, let's go on with
> the reply as I originally drafted it:]
> 
> 
> If the above test works, and I strongly suspect it would, then it's
> probably not hard to come up with smoother and more automatable ways. 
> However, if I _did_ need package clamav (which I don't), _and_ if I
> were feeling paranoid about libsystemd0 (which I don't), then I'd
> just grab the package source and rebuild it using the debuild utility
> to omit the pointless and annoying library dependency and work around
> the packaging bullshit.  And using debuild is not exactly brain
> surgery; a link to a page that walks you through that is part of my
> OpenRC conversion page.
> 
> Please note that I do _not_ assert in any way that it's A Good Thing
> that you might be driven to do this (if you are paranoid about
> libsystemd0, which I consider a bit irrational).  I'd certainly prefer
> if you didn't.  Fortunately, short of that, rebuilding packages
> locally is a pretty easy second way.
> 
> 
> > I opened a bug, which was very quickly and quite abusively closed as
> > "won't fix", and was also told that "it doesn't work like that"
> > when I asked if (especially as it was supposedly only one call they
> > ever made on non-systemd systems) why they couldn't do "if exists
> > libsystemd0 then ..." - something which I now know is possible if
> > the dev/packager cares about it.  
> 
> [Late addendum:  The upstream developer's attitude is annoying, but on
> the other hand you also didn't tell the whole truth about your
> discussion with him, did you, now?  I also note in passing that you
> portrayed this as a problem with the ClamAV 'package', which is a bit
> misleading, as the origin of your problem wasn't with a distro
> packaging policy but rather upstream.]
> 
> 
> > So after all this, I think I see where some of this division comes
> > from ...  You *appear* to have been working on the basis that it's a
> > "non problem" because the testing you did showed it to be so - for
> > your use case.  
> 
> No, that is _not_ what I said -- and I have said it quite a number of
> times and am getting rather tired of having to repeat it.
> 
> I perceive it to be not a problem worth spending time on (which is not
> the same as 'non problem') because the specific contents of this
> library mean it is completely innocuous on a system lacking systemd,
> in pretty much exactly the same way that the Kerberos libraries --
> pulled in by an essentially bogus library dependency of package
> ssh-client on my Kerberos-less system -- are completely innocuous on
> a system lacking Kerberos because of their specific contents.
> 
> (The self-parodying bullshit objection of 'In the future, horrible
> evil things might be put into the library because of horrible evil
> package maintainers colluding with horrible evil upstream and the
> inability of the entire Linux community to discover what has
> happened' has already been addressed upthread.)
> 
> 
> > Some of us have been working on the basis that it *is* a problem
> > because 

Re: [DNG] OT: question about mailing lists

[Jaromil]

On Thu, 28 Jul 2016, Simon Walter wrote:

> What everyone else said and also the general netiquette of replying,
> quoting, and editing properly are much appreciated as you probably know.

To this let me add that some valuable members of our community have
low vision, plus Devuan Minimal Live has been optimised explicitly for
the Linux-Speakup community. Therefore any attention to concise and
meaningful quoting is appreciated and helps inclusion. It is also
advisable to avoid dragging long threads with replies which are not
particularly informative. Let minimalism and elegance be the guiding
principles for our communication, not just our distribution :^)


ciao

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Re: [DNG] Why Debian 8 Pinning is (or isn't) pointless

[Rick Moen]

Quoting Simon Hobson (li...@thehobsons.co.uk):

> OK, to start with, "sysadmin" is only a small part of ${dayjob} - so
> many things which full time admins may consider "simple" are not thing
> that I've ever had the time (and generally need) to deal with. I've
> never claimed to be a particularly experienced admin, even if my
> colleagues consider me some sort of guru (everything is relative).

I'm sure you're fine.  

The point is, though, there are some quite simple aspects of running any
deb-based system, including ones I mentioned at least in passing in my
OpenRC Conversion essay, that I hope you will find useful in, among
other things (as the subheader puts it), 'Overcoming Dependency
Obstacles'.

If you'd rather not, that's fine by me, but I notice that just
complaining on mailing lists has done rather little, and maybe some,
y'know, work using fairly basic Linux technology might do more.  

> But the main thing is, a big part of using a packaged system is to
> make things "simpler".

So, complain on mailing lists, then?  ;->



> The moment anyone starts building custom packages then you've tossed a
> live grenade in the system with a tripwire on the pin.

'Building custom packages' is a rather inventively melodramatic
exaggeration of auto-rebuilding a .deb with one spurious lib dependency
disabled, and the 'live grenade' imagery in that specific context is
patently ridiculous.

But hey, if you'd rather sit on your tochis and wait for someone else to
do it for you, I'll not deter you.


> I did look at equivs - but the information (or links) presented to me
> then implied something very different to the "simple" stuff that's
> been presented (IIRC) in this thread.

Your phrase 'the information (or links) presented to me' is
meaninglessly vague.  Some people here seem to do that a lot, I notice.

http://shallowsky.com/blog/linux/install/blocking-deb-dependencies.html
walks through a specific case, and is pretty much by the numbers.  I
have no idea what you looked at, but either you didn't bother to start
with the above (which is the link from my essay), or you have IMO rather
extreme hopes and expectations.  With which, I will hasten to add, I
would still wish you all the best.


> Then (from what I vaguely recall reading) I was under the impression
> that equivs involved more than just a "pretend that this package is
> installed" instruction to apt as the recent reference here suggested
> to me. But from empirical observation, just telling apt to "pretend
> libsystemd0 is installed even though it isn't" won't work when the
> program "blows up" during startup when the linker can't open a library
> it's been told is needed by this program.

The upstream ClamAV developer _asserted_ that exactly that would work.
So, was he correct in so saying, or was he incorrect?  Did it ever 
occur to you to check?  No?  Why not?  Allergic to empiricism?  Broken
thumbs?  Highly selective phobias?  Cat dragged off your computer?

Personally, in your shoes -- if I had an irrational paranoia about
libsystemd0, which I currently do not -- I would want to know.  Wanting
to know, I would indulge my personal affection for empiricism.  E.g.,
when the relevant question is 'Is $FOO true?', I would investigate $FOO.

If the upstream ClamAV developer's assertion is incorrect, then the
other (rather obvious, I thought) trick I mentioned would be extremely
likely to suffice in its place.

But I'm getting the vibes that you are uninterested in 'overcoming
dependency obstacles' through local system administration.  You'd rather 
that someone else solves your problem.

I understand.  I'd like someone else to solve _my_ problems, too.  And
I'd also like a Caterham, by the way.  (British Racing Green, like
Patrick McGoohan's Lotus Super 7.  One of the ones with a Ford Zetec
1.4L engine is perfectly fine.  Right-hand drive is also fine; I'll
sweet-talk the automotive grand panjandrums into letting me use it.)


> So look at it from my PoV.

When I'm done looking at it from my own, sure.  You might have to wait a
few decades, though.  I believe I still have some miles left on my
warranty.  ;->

Looking at it from my own, I see that I've documented ways to deal
overcome dependency obstacles, but you don't want to do them.  Fair
dinkum, as the Aussies say.  You aren't obliged.  But I _did_ provide
them.



> Incidentally, after the exchange referred to, someone contacted me
> offlist with the comment "if that's the customer service department,
> I'd hate to see the complaints department" - so it would appear at one
> other person sees my PoV.

That was on-list.  It's about four posts down the archived thread.
Whose link I provided.

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Re: [DNG] Why Debian 8 Pinning is (or isn't) pointless

[Simon Walter]

On 07/28/2016 05:50 PM, Simon Hobson wrote:
...

but personally I consider it unethical to leave booby traps in systems for 
anyone that comes along to manage it after me.

...
> That, for the most part, is why I've gone to great lengths to only 
use distro packaged software on the systems - even when it would have 
been easier at times (thinking more about CGI stuff rather than compiled 
programs) to grab the upstream and manually install it.

...

Good man!

Some of the best paying (read: stressful) jobs I've done were figuring 
out some custom system and port it over to something 
standard/out-of-the-box/maintainable.


Simon
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Re: [DNG] Why Debian 8 Pinning is (or isn't) pointless

[Simon Hobson]

Rick Moen  wrote:

> If the above test works, and I strongly suspect it would, then it's
> probably not hard to come up with smoother and more automatable ways. 
> However, if I _did_ need package clamav (which I don't), _and_ if I were
> feeling paranoid about libsystemd0 (which I don't), then I'd just grab
> the package source and rebuild it using the debuild utility to omit the
> pointless and annoying library dependency and work around the packaging
> bullshit.  And using debuild is not exactly brain surgery; a link to a
> page that walks you through that is part of my OpenRC conversion page.

OK, to start with, "sysadmin" is only a small part of ${dayjob} - so many 
things which full time admins may consider "simple" are not thing that I've 
ever had the time (and generally need) to deal with. I've never claimed to be a 
particularly experienced admin, even if my colleagues consider me some sort of 
guru (everything is relative). Similarly, I don't claim to be a programmer (I 
can hack a bit of Bash these days, but that's about it) - even though a 1/4 
century ago I was writing code commercially (in PL/M 51 if you're interested 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PL/M).


But the main thing is, a big part of using a packaged system is to make things 
"simpler". The moment anyone starts building custom packages then you've tossed 
a live grenade in the system with a tripwire on the pin. So anyone coming along 
to admin these systems after me - whether that's because I've moved on or 
fallen under the proverbial bus - is put in a situation where a simple and 
innocuous operation could "blow up" the system. OK, so it wouldn't be me that 
had to worry about that, but personally I consider it unethical to leave booby 
traps in systems for anyone that comes along to manage it after me. Either I 
fudge with version numbers so that an apt-get upgrade will never try and 
replace my customer package (leaving someone scratching their head as to why), 
or I don't and an apt-get upgrade does strange things (most likely failing with 
misleading errors due to pinning and it not being able to satisfy dependencies).

And I can absolutely 100% guarantee that anyone else in the company that might 
have to take over is a long way off the skillset for things like 
building customer packages, and I do mean a very loong way off that. 
That, for the most part, is why I've gone to great lengths to only use distro 
packaged software on the systems - even when it would have been easier at times 
(thinking more about CGI stuff rather than compiled programs) to grab the 
upstream and manually install it.

I did look at equivs - but the information (or links) presented to me then 
implied something very different to the "simple" stuff that's been presented 
(IIRC) in this thread. Then (from what I vaguely recall reading) I was under 
the impression that equivs involved more than just a "pretend that this package 
is installed" instruction to apt as the recent reference here suggested to me. 
But from empirical observation, just telling apt to "pretend libsystemd0 is 
installed even though it isn't" won't work when the program "blows up" during 
startup when the linker can't open a library it's been told is needed by this 
program.


So look at it from my PoV.
I've been told that I could build an equivs package to provide the library and 
empty functions to keep the program happy - and I've been told that equivs is 
just a short recipe to apt that makes it "pretend" the library is installed.
I've been told that no you can't just open the library if it exists, and I've 
been told that it's really easy to do.
I've been told that equivs (as in the latter) will let a program start even if 
the library isn't there, and I've shown by experiment that the program "blows 
up" at start if the library is missing.
Confused :-/


Incidentally, after the exchange referred to, someone contacted me offlist with 
the comment "if that's the customer service department, I'd hate to see the 
complaints department" - so it would appear at one other person sees my PoV.

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Re: [DNG] Why Debian 8 Pinning is (or isn't) pointless

[Rick Moen]

Quoting Simon Hobson (li...@thehobsons.co.uk):

> I too did some checking. From practical experience, one of the ClamAV
> packages (IIRC it's clamd) has a hard dependency on libsystemd0. Using
> dpkg --force-depends to install only that package without having
> libsystemd0 installed results in ... it failing at startup because it
> can't open the library.

Out of curiosity, then, what happens if a file exists and can be opened
but isn't libsystemd0?  [Late addendum:  The ClamAV developer 
_already gave you a better and cleaner solution_, which you haven't
bothered to mention here.  Any special reason why you omitted that?
I'll fill that in below, in more late-addendum comments.]

Like, find the tiniest lib with fewest functions you can, and cp it to 
/lib/[$ARCH]/libsystemd.so.[version] ?  

It would be interesting to find whether this package actually _uses_
anything within libsystemd0 -- which would AFAIK be futile if systemd
isn't present -- or whether it merely (a) checks that a library exists
and is openable (dlopen) or whether (b) it looks up symbols/functions
inside the library (dlsym).

One of the ClamAV upstream developers claims it's in effect (a), saying
'it doesn't do anything if systemd isn't the active init system'.
But you already knew this because the person he said it to was you.
http://lists.clamav.net/pipermail/clamav-users/2015-June/001592.html

[Late addendum:  And, oh, wait:  The same developer _also_ already told
you that you could make the problem go away by using the 'equivs' trick
-- which I have discussed before.
http://lists.clamav.net/pipermail/clamav-users/2015-June/001601.html 
So, basically, you're claiming this is a huge unsolvable problem even
though the developer handed you a solution on a platter, that you're
not bothering to mention here.  I see.  Meanwhile, let's go on with the
reply as I originally drafted it:]


If the above test works, and I strongly suspect it would, then it's
probably not hard to come up with smoother and more automatable ways. 
However, if I _did_ need package clamav (which I don't), _and_ if I were
feeling paranoid about libsystemd0 (which I don't), then I'd just grab
the package source and rebuild it using the debuild utility to omit the
pointless and annoying library dependency and work around the packaging
bullshit.  And using debuild is not exactly brain surgery; a link to a
page that walks you through that is part of my OpenRC conversion page.

Please note that I do _not_ assert in any way that it's A Good Thing
that you might be driven to do this (if you are paranoid about
libsystemd0, which I consider a bit irrational).  I'd certainly prefer
if you didn't.  Fortunately, short of that, rebuilding packages locally
is a pretty easy second way.


> I opened a bug, which was very quickly and quite abusively closed as
> "won't fix", and was also told that "it doesn't work like that" when I
> asked if (especially as it was supposedly only one call they ever made
> on non-systemd systems) why they couldn't do "if exists libsystemd0
> then ..." - something which I now know is possible if the dev/packager
> cares about it.

[Late addendum:  The upstream developer's attitude is annoying, but on
the other hand you also didn't tell the whole truth about your
discussion with him, did you, now?  I also note in passing that you
portrayed this as a problem with the ClamAV 'package', which is a bit
misleading, as the origin of your problem wasn't with a distro packaging
policy but rather upstream.]


> So after all this, I think I see where some of this division comes
> from ...  You *appear* to have been working on the basis that it's a
> "non problem" because the testing you did showed it to be so - for
> your use case.

No, that is _not_ what I said -- and I have said it quite a number of
times and am getting rather tired of having to repeat it.

I perceive it to be not a problem worth spending time on (which is not
the same as 'non problem') because the specific contents of this library
mean it is completely innocuous on a system lacking systemd, in pretty
much exactly the same way that the Kerberos libraries -- pulled in by an
essentially bogus library dependency of package ssh-client on my
Kerberos-less system -- are completely innocuous on a system lacking
Kerberos because of their specific contents.

(The self-parodying bullshit objection of 'In the future, horrible evil
things might be put into the library because of horrible evil package
maintainers colluding with horrible evil upstream and the inability of
the entire Linux community to discover what has happened' has already
been addressed upthread.)


> Some of us have been working on the basis that it *is* a problem
> because our testing shows it to be so - for our use cases.

At the risk of speaking a bit sharply for a moment:  Looks to me like
you've also not bothered how to figure out how to do basic
distro-centric system administration.  If you'd like to learn a bit of
that, my OpenRC 

Re: [DNG] Why Debian 8 Pinning is (or isn't) pointless

[Simon Hobson]

Rick Moen  wrote:

> I have a better question:  Is there something about empiricism that many
> people on this mailing list cannot cope with?
> 
> Back when I had newly joined this mailing list and all of these idle
> allegations and rhetorical questions started being posted, I decided to
> do that thing  What's it called?  Oh, right:  'Checking.'

I too did some checking. From practical experience, one of the ClamAV packages 
(IIRC it's clamd) has a hard dependency on libsystemd0. Using dpkg 
--force-depends to install only that package without having libsystemd0 
installed results in ... it failing at startup because it can't open the 
library.

I opened a bug, which was very quickly and quite abusively closed as "won't 
fix", and was also told that "it doesn't work like that" when I asked if 
(especially as it was supposedly only one call they ever made on non-systemd 
systems) why they couldn't do "if exists libsystemd0 then ..." - something 
which I now know is possible if the dev/packager cares about it.


So after all this, I think I see where some of this division comes from ...
You *appear* to have been working on the basis that it's a "non problem" 
because the testing you did showed it to be so - for your use case. Some of us 
have been working on the basis that it *is* a problem because our testing shows 
it to be so - for our use cases. And we've all failed to pick up on this - a 
bit like the tory of the blind men and the elephant  
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blind_men_and_an_elephant

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Re: [DNG] devuan image installed on eoma68-a20 computer card

[Edward Bartolo]

Yet another Big Well Done to Devuan!

Long Life Choice!
Big NO to software lock-ins!

:D :D :D
-- 
Those who abuse me will be banned immediately from my email account.
Here, I am communicating with supposedly intelligent adults who are
responsible for their actions.
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