Re: [DNG] eudev [was: vdev]

[Ralph Ronnquist]

richard lucassen wrote on 23/08/16 05:38:

On Mon, 22 Aug 2016 20:17:11 +1000
Ralph Ronnquist  wrote:


And with "freedom of choice" in mind: indeed, it would be nice if
eudev would be available anyway, whether vdev will be continued or
not.


As far as I could tell, vdev is so almost ready it'd be sad to turn
sideways, and as it stands, I think I'd like to invest some of my TV
time towards pushing it these final few metres. Though I'm not sure
what the due process would be; I'm rather new to this arena. Perhaps
someone can drop me a line of advice on that.


I'm not against vdev, not al all, but what if the kernel changes and
vdev has to be adapted? Who's going to do that job?

What is happening now is that we're going to package an orphaned
project. I don't think that is a good idea...


I have the luxury of having no background here, and I don't mind 
particularly which way it goes. But I very much would like to see those 
official Devuan installation iso-s without systemd-udev (and without 
netinstall) being available; so much, I'd let go of some of my quality 
time with the TV ads, if it can be a help.


I've learnt enough about vdev to be able to envision its path from here 
to being in the package set, with merely the two hurdles of a) sorting 
out the initram building step of the installation procedure, and b) 
preparing adequate man pages and descriptions. Thus, it primarily needs 
a package maintainer rather than upstream developer right now. The 
effort seems to be in the order of 5-10 man days, which on an 8h/w input 
would be 5-10 weeks.


I don't know the state of an eudev option; I guess it wouldn't be 
unsystemd/devian-eudev.


I suppose there's also someone making the choice of which of these 
options would be the default option used in an installation.


Ralph.
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[DNG] xserver-xorg dev1fanboy git wiki

[メット]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA512

Hi all

Thanks for the wonderful work with Dev1 and the wealth of knowledge u provide o 
n the list, on the web.

It seems dev1fanboy wiki about minimal Xorg install is missing a package:
xserver-xorg

Ive just tried a fresh install with dev1 iso on amd64, lenovo l512, and 
everything went very smoothly.

Thanx again and bye.

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Re: [DNG] Distrowatch Devuan poll do-over

[Hendrik Boom]

On Mon, Aug 22, 2016 at 06:27:58PM +, Go Linux wrote:
> Looks like the second poll has ended.  There's a new one up today and voting 
> is no longer an option.  Here are the final results:
> 
> Poll results for: The state of Devuan
> 
> I have tried Devuan and it is ready to use:   95 (27%)
> I have tried Devuan and it needs a little more work:  45 (13%)
> I have tried Devuan and it needs lots more work:  19 (5%)
> I have not yet tried Devuan but plan to later:90 (25%)
> I have not yet tried Devuan and have no plans to try it:  107 (30%)

The important ones are, of course, the ones who have tried Devuan.  Most of 
those 
who have tried Devuan think it is ready to use. 

But we should try to accommodate that 13 %.

And what are the problems of the 5%. 

Unfortunately the poll doesn't give us this level of detail.

-- hendrik

> 
> Those results are actually better percentage wise than the ones that were 
> "lost".  Thanks to everyone who voted.
> 
> golinux
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Re: [DNG] Systemd Starts Mounting

[Didier Kryn]

Le 22/08/2016 15:20, Clarke Sideroad a écrit :

Well at least they have not swallowed Mount.yet.

Slow Monday?  Some humour here:

https://linux.slashdot.org/story/16/08/21/2259219/systemd-rolls-out-its-own-mount-tool 



It's more and more clear they're doing a kind of Windows running on 
the Linux kernel, with all admin tools now integrated in an overly 
complex tangle only RedHat has control on, and just a few buttons left 
to the admin treated as an idiot.


I bet in a few years, M$ buys RH. M$ is about to adopt the Linux 
kernel just like Mac has adopted BSD.


Didier

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[DNG] Systemd Starts Mounting

[Clarke Sideroad]

Well at least they have not swallowed Mount.yet.

Slow Monday?  Some humour here:

https://linux.slashdot.org/story/16/08/21/2259219/systemd-rolls-out-its-own-mount-tool

Clarke
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Re: [DNG] eudev [was: vdev]

[Ralph Ronnquist]

richard lucassen wrote on 22/08/16 19:34:

...
I agree, but unfortunately nobody has the time and the skills to pick up
vdev and to continue its development. I have neither the time, nor the
skills unfortunately, otherwise I would certainly have participated in
the project. For the moment Devuan is still equipped with udev-systemd,
so Devuan is very very dependent on the systemd guys. Just something
nobody wants here.

And with "freedom of choice" in mind: indeed, it would be nice if eudev
would be available anyway, whether vdev will be continued or not.


As far as I could tell, vdev is so almost ready it'd be sad to turn 
sideways, and as it stands, I think I'd like to invest some of my TV 
time towards pushing it these final few metres. Though I'm not sure what 
the due process would be; I'm rather new to this arena. Perhaps someone 
can drop me a line of advice on that.

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Re: [DNG] eudev [was: vdev]

[richard lucassen]

On Mon, 22 Aug 2016 08:08:05 +1200
Daniel Reurich  wrote:

> > I've been at work for a week or so and today I looked at the DNG
> > list for the latest activities around vdev, but there has almost
> > been no activity on vdev as far as I can see. OTOH, last week I
> > tested eudev on a separate partition and that seems to work quite
> > well.
> 
> You are mistaken, there has been lots of activity around vdev and
> making it installable.

I still encounter problems. When running a kernel without initramfs one
or another way vdev refuses to start because /var/log/vdev is not
writable. The only way to make it start is to use /dev/null as logfile
and restart it in rc.local.
 
> > I think it might be a good idea to leave vdev for what it is and
> > to switch to eudev. It is moreorless maintained (the latest change
> > is two weeks ago) and it works well. We should not reinvent the
> > wheel IMHO. And as there has been no response from the original
> > vdev author, I think it's better to package eudev for Devuan and to
> > make it available for Jessie and Ascii. The latest version is 3.2.
> 
> Well quite frankly you don't get to make that call.  Eudev is just a
> hack that from what I gather is isolating the systemd-udev changes and
> bringing them in to eudev.  IMHO that is less sustainable then vdev
> because it relies on developers from systemd to play nice with udev
> and not deprecate features that don't serve systemd's needs.  At the
> end of the day, I consider eudev as at best marginally better the
> eudev, but still far to closely coupled with systemd to be useful in
> the medium to long term.

That is some or other form of FUD. I hear these "it's too
dependent of systemd" arguments quite often here, but I don't think the
Gentoo folks would have used eudev if they were fearing the same. Devuan
is 99% Debian, that is even more a big threat if you consider the
systemd imperialisation.

> With regards to vdev, I'm sure if Jude didn't come back, others would
> pick up his work and progress it, as is happening now around packaging
> it.  I think it rather disingenuous of you to imply it's a dead
> project whilst claiming that eudev, the re-animated zombie of
> systemd-udev as a better and only option.  It's not better, and it's
> not the only option either.

No, but I fear vdev is stillborn. It's an orphaned project for the
moment. Don't get me wrong, I'd rather run vdev than another device
manager. The thing is: we may be able package it and to run it in
Jessie (as we tried last week), but will vdev still work in a year or so
if there's no development of vdev itself?

> Whilst I respect the work to package eudev and having it as an option
> in Devuan, I will personally very loudly push back on any attempt to
> derail alternatives such as vdev - unless those alternative are
> demonstrably built on the same flawed design principles as systemd.

I agree, but unfortunately nobody has the time and the skills to pick up
vdev and to continue its development. I have neither the time, nor the
skills unfortunately, otherwise I would certainly have participated in
the project. For the moment Devuan is still equipped with udev-systemd,
so Devuan is very very dependent on the systemd guys. Just something
nobody wants here.

And with "freedom of choice" in mind: indeed, it would be nice if eudev
would be available anyway, whether vdev will be continued or not.

R.

-- 
richard lucassen
http://contact.xaq.nl/
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