Re: [DNG] Browsers

[Rick Moen]

Quoting Hendrik Boom (hend...@topoi.pooq.com):

> Are there other Devuan-packaged lightweight browsers anyone might 
> recommend?  I may switch to chromium, but I doubt that it's 
> lightweight.

Not exactly the answer to your question, but to a similar one:  I
maintain what I hop is a list of all Linux Web browsers, here: 
http://linuxmafia.com/~rick/faq/kicking.html#linuxbrowser


While I'm at it, let's talk layout (rendering) engines.

Gecko
-
Not much to say about this classic Mozilla Foundation codebase, except
it works, it's aging, it's used for many browsers.

Goanna
--

One thing I didn't know until just now:  Pale Moon (from 'Moonchild
Productions' is based not on Gecko exactly, but on a Jan. 2016 _fork_ of
Gecko called Goanna maintained as part of the project that produced 
Pale Moon.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goanna_(software) 
Reasons for said fork are detailed at
http://www.ghacks.net/2015/06/22/pale-moon-to-switch-from-gecko-to-goanna-rendering-engine/

Blink
-

There have been interesting things happening in browser layout engines.
First a couple'a year ago, Google forked Apple's WebKit engine to create
Blink, the engine in Chromium and Google Chrome.  (WebKit in turn was
Apple's fork of KDE's kHTML engine.)  The Blink fork was all about
Google wanting to implement per-tab processes, which was not supported
in WebKit (and thus not in Apple Safari).  Blink thus underlies all
current Chromium derivatives including current proprietary Opera Web
browser.  (Like WebKit, Blink is proprietary-friendly-licensed, thus
Amazon uses it in a proprietary embedded Web browser called Silk.)

Servo
-

More recently, Mozilla Research, with some participation by Samsung,
created an all-new experimental layout engine called Servo, with it 
rendering quite a lot faster (in part because of using GPU acceleration)
and able to be highly parallelise / fine-grained because some key parts
of it were written in Rust.  (No, you don't want to run it today.  It's
still alphaware / proof of concept code.)

WebKit (+ QtWebKit, PyQtWebkit)
--

WebKit underlies Midori, KDE Rekonq, the GNOME browser 'Web' that is the
dessicated & reanimated corpse of Epiphany (after 'Web' initially used
Gecko), and a bunch of weird things like WebOS's application runtime, 
the proprietary Slimboat Web browser, Valve's Steam UI, and some
proprietary Adobe things on other OSes courtesy of WebKit's BSD
licensing for most of the browser engine.  Plus the Arora Web browser
(formerly Icefox Arora) which is based on Qt4 + WebKit -- but Arora's
somewhere between 'stalled' and 'abandoned', last I checked.  A
particular combination of WebKit and Qt is popular and called
(inevitably) QtWebKit.  Thus Qutebrowser ('a keyboard-driven,
vim-like browser based on PyQt5 and QtWebKit').  Plus QtWeb Internet
Browser.  Plus an odd little thing called Lightweight2
(https://www.linux-apps.com/p/1131910/).  Likewise Dooble
(http://dooble.sourceforge.net).  Add Python bindings and you
get 'PyQtWebkit', used for WCGBrowser, a lightweight 'kiosk' browser
written in Python.

QtWebEngine
---

QtWebEngine (not to be confused with QtWebKit) came out recently and,
IMO, has been underappreciated.  It underlies QupZilla and the
delightful Otter Browser (revenge of the Opera Browser 12.x UI -- still
a bit experimental).  Dooble has a partial port to QtWebEngine.  And
Liri Browser (see below) can now be built for QtWebEngine.

kHTML
-

kHTML is still in use in KDE's Konqueror 'not dead yet' Web and file
browser.


So, Servo, Goanna, QtWebEngine, and Oxide (see below) are the new
layout engine options.  Those and Gecko, WebKit, kHTML, and Blink are
what we have to work with on Linux, not counting proprietary engines
(MARTHA, Prince).  I don't know why anyone but Google is yet building an
open source Web browser on Blink, but my cynical guess is that it has
something to do with their habit of rather too often doing 'open source'
by developing behind closed doors and then hurling code dumps over the
transom -- which is also how Apple rather haplessly forked kHTML without
actually intending to do so.  Which, come to think of it, reminds me 
of how Corel Software Ltd. haplessly and accidentally forked WINE for
its late 1990s Linux/Winelib port of Corel Office 2000 by making the
exact same screwup.  Some folks never learn from software history.  (The
proprietary Slimjet browser is built on Blink, but nothing open source
except Chromium, to my knowledge.  But read on)



Oxide
-

Very late in composing this e-mail, I found one exception, a fork of Google's
Blink layout engine + V8 Javascript engine called Oxide.
http://www.chriscoulson.me.uk/blog/?p=196
https://launchpad.net/oxide

Oxide is used in the Ubuntu Touch embedded browser, and in Liri Project's
Liri Browser, https://github.com/lirios/browser.


None of the above
-

A very small Web browser called qtbrowser
(https://github.com/Metrological/qtbrowser) is built on Qt4 

Re: [DNG] Debian becomes sorry state of broken distribution.

[KatolaZ]

On Fri, Feb 24, 2017 at 09:41:47PM +0100, Jaromil wrote:

[cut]

> 
> Another perfectly working f/oss alternative to vbox is qemu-kvm
>

Totally agree...

> so let me add the blame to hasciicorp's vagrant for choosing to phase
> out the qemu backend, whatever stupid reason they had for it, I wish
> now someone rewrites something like a vagrant for qemu and possibly in
> shell script...
> 

That's something we might try to get done :)

HND

KatolaZ

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Re: [DNG] Debian becomes sorry state of broken distribution.

[Jaromil]

On Fri, 24 Feb 2017, Stefan Krusche wrote:

> I'm on devuan jessie. What I did is this:
> 
> I enabled MX 15 repository* and installed from there
> linux-image-4.8.0-2.1-liquorix-amd64 and
> virtualbox 5.1.8-dfsg-3mx150+3
> 
> [*] https://mxlinux.org/wiki/system/repos-mx-15

it worked! many thanks!! and cheers to antix

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Re: [DNG] default live Devuan username and password not easily available?

[Miroslav Rovis]

On 170224-11:46+, KatolaZ wrote:
> On Fri, Feb 24, 2017 at 12:29:43PM +0100, Miroslav Rovis wrote:
> 
> [cut]
> 
> > 
> > In the meantime, I believe the main conclusion to draw here, is set
> > those suggestions in the Installation README, or anywhere close, such
> > that the next user does not have to go in search for them.
> > ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ 
> 
...
> For those targeting embedded systems, the relevant information is
> already provided at:
> 
>   https://files.devuan.org/devuan_jessie_beta/embedded/README.txt
Also, and in reply where my first query I posted
(
https://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?pid=575#p575
), root/toor works for:
https://files.devuan.org/README.txt

Thanks! ...
> 
> KatolaZ
> 
> -- 
> [ ~.,_  Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ - GLUGCT -- Freaknet Medialab  ]  
> [ "+.  katolaz [at] freaknet.org --- katolaz [at] yahoo.it  ]
> [   @)   http://kalos.mine.nu ---  Devuan GNU + Linux User  ]
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> [ (@@@)  Twitter: @KatolaZ - skype: katolaz -- github: KatolaZ  ]
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... I like your signature (
and I love Italy!... the Southeners as well as the Northeners of
Italy ;-) and I love London... but that's all memories now
)

However, I've spent half of this day in unsuccessful attempts at booting Devuan
(proper):
Devuan image in Qemu (8)
https://www.croatiafidelis.hr/foss/cap/cap-161015-qemu-devuan/qemu-devuan-8.php

( successfully booting Refracta is in the previous, Devuan image in Qemu (7) )

In anyone cares to look at it (only if there could be any use to do it
generally, I mean useful to other potential users), because I'm
exhausted for this matter for now... 

... I'm exhausted for this matter for now because I spent the other half
of this day toiling to arrange all necessary to post there about it.

Mind that (i.e. do mind only if anybody ventures to invest any time to
look it up in more detail), as I say there:

> It could be something simple and that will be resolved soon, even by
> me, and it could be completely distant yet

Regards!

-- 
Miroslav Rovis
Zagreb, Croatia
http://www.CroatiaFidelis.hr


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Re: [DNG] Debian becomes sorry state of broken distribution.

[Stefan Krusche]

Am Freitag 24 Februar 2017 schrieb Hughe Chung:
> I wanted to run Android-x86 6.0 on a virtual machine. After trying to
> install three versions of VirtulBox, the oldest version 4.3 from
> wheezy-backports was successful with kernel 3.16. Out of nine
> combinations, I managed to find one working one fortunately: 3.16 kernel
> with virtualbox 4.3.
>
> 4.8 and 4.9 kernels had module build failure.
>

I'm on devuan jessie. What I did is this:

I enabled MX 15 repository* and installed from there
linux-image-4.8.0-2.1-liquorix-amd64 and
virtualbox 5.1.8-dfsg-3mx150+3

I don't remember any problems from installing those some time last year.

Regards, Stefan

[*] https://mxlinux.org/wiki/system/repos-mx-15
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Re: [DNG] Debian becomes sorry state of broken distribution.

[Jaromil]

On Fri, 24 Feb 2017, Joachim Fahrner wrote:

> Am 24.02.2017 um 21:09 schrieb Hughe Chung:
> >
> > I wanted to run Android-x86 6.0 on a virtual machine. After trying to
> > install three versions of VirtulBox, the oldest version 4.3 from
> > wheezy-backports was successful with kernel 3.16. Out of nine
> > combinations, I managed to find one working one fortunately: 3.16
> > kernel with virtualbox 4.3.
> >
> 
> Don't blame Debian, blame Virtualbox. Try VMware Workstation Player.
> Long time ago I switched from Virtualbox to VMware, because it was
> so buggy.

I experience more or less the same situation of Hughe: I switched to
the 4.x Linux kernel series in jessie-backports broke the vbox and
consequently my vagrant setup.

Another perfectly working f/oss alternative to vbox is qemu-kvm

so let me add the blame to hasciicorp's vagrant for choosing to phase
out the qemu backend, whatever stupid reason they had for it, I wish
now someone rewrites something like a vagrant for qemu and possibly in
shell script...

ciao

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Re: [DNG] Debian becomes sorry state of broken distribution.

[Joachim Fahrner]

Am 24.02.2017 um 21:09 schrieb Hughe Chung:
>
> I wanted to run Android-x86 6.0 on a virtual machine. After trying to
> install three versions of VirtulBox, the oldest version 4.3 from
> wheezy-backports was successful with kernel 3.16. Out of nine
> combinations, I managed to find one working one fortunately: 3.16
> kernel with virtualbox 4.3.
>

Don't blame Debian, blame Virtualbox. Try VMware Workstation Player.
Long time ago I switched from Virtualbox to VMware, because it was so buggy.

-- 
Mit besten Grüßen
Joachim Fahrner

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[DNG] Debian becomes sorry state of broken distribution.

[Hughe Chung]

Hi,

My Devuan workstation's specification:
AMD FX-6100 processor
DDR3 8 GB memory
Radeon 3000 onboard graphics card
ASUS mATX graphics card.
Cooler: Cooler Master Hyper Evo 212
Built year: 2012

I wanted to run Android-x86 6.0 on a virtual machine. After trying to 
install three versions of VirtulBox, the oldest version 4.3 from 
wheezy-backports was successful with kernel 3.16. Out of nine 
combinations, I managed to find one working one fortunately: 3.16 kernel 
with virtualbox 4.3.


4.8 and 4.9 kernels had module build failure.

Building only for 4.9.0-0.bpo.1-amd64
Building initial module for 4.9.0-0.bpo.1-amd64
Error! Bad return status for module build on kernel: 4.9.0-0.bpo.1-amd64 
(x86_64

)
Consult /var/lib/dkms/virtualbox/4.3.36/build/make.log for more 
information.

Setting up virtualbox (4.3.36-dfsg-1+deb8u1) ...
[ ok ] Stopping VirtualBox kernel modules
.
[] Starting VirtualBox kernel modules[] No suitable module for 
running k

[FAIL found ... failed!
 failed!
invoke-rc.d: initscript virtualbox, action "restart" failed.
Setting up virtualbox-qt (4.3.36-dfsg-1+deb8u1) ...

5.x from jessie, jessie-backports had installation failure due to kernel 
module build error.
5.1 from Oracle repository installed alright. It complained missing QT 
library when it starts. I spent few hours to troubleshoot about "xcm" 
related error that had been fixed on other distributions.


qemu freezes often and has sluggish performance both framebuffer mode or 
Xorg mode.


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[DNG] logrotate "error creating output file"

[hal]

Hi All,
logrotate started tossing this error about a month ago. Anyone know how to fix 
it?
Some googling said to try  "minsize 1k" in /etc/logrotate.conf but it doesn't 
work.

Thanks


# logrotate -f /etc/logrotate.conf
error: error creating output file /var/log/ConsoleKit/history.1.gz: File exists
error: error creating output file /var/log/cups/access_log.1.gz: File exists
error: error creating output file /var/log/cups/error_log.1.gz: File exists
error: error creating output file /var/log/cups/page_log.1.gz: File exists
error: error creating output file /var/log/dpkg.log.1.gz: File exists
error: error creating output file /var/log/alternatives.log.1.gz: File exists
error: error creating output file /var/log/pm-powersave.log.1.gz: File exists
error: error creating output file /var/log/mail.info.1.gz: File exists
error: error creating output file /var/log/mail.warn.1.gz: File exists
error: error creating output file /var/log/mail.log.1.gz: File exists
error: error creating output file /var/log/daemon.log.1.gz: File exists
error: error creating output file /var/log/kern.log.1.gz: File exists
error: error creating output file /var/log/auth.log.1.gz: File exists
error: error creating output file /var/log/user.log.1.gz: File exists
error: error creating output file /var/log/cron.log.1.gz: File exists
error: error creating output file /var/log/debug.1.gz: File exists
error: error creating output file /var/log/messages.1.gz: File exists
error: error creating output file /var/log/syslog.1.gz: File exists
error: error creating output file /var/log/slim.log.1: File exists

# dir /var/log/ConsoleKit/history.1.gz:
ls: cannot access /var/log/ConsoleKit/history.1.gz:: No such file or directory
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Re: [DNG] default live Devuan username and password not easily available?

[KatolaZ]

On Fri, Feb 24, 2017 at 12:29:43PM +0100, Miroslav Rovis wrote:

[cut]

> 
> In the meantime, I believe the main conclusion to draw here, is set
> those suggestions in the Installation README, or anywhere close, such
> that the next user does not have to go in search for them.
> ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ 

You are definitely right on this point: there should be a mention to
the default user/passwords somewhere. The thing is that the default
install does *not* have a default root password, or even a default
devuan user, AFAIK. It's just the live images in the testing/ folder.

For those targeting embedded systems, the relevant information is
already provided at:

  https://files.devuan.org/devuan_jessie_beta/embedded/README.txt

and is consistent with what you find in the qcow files.

My2Cents

KatolaZ

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Re: [DNG] Life After Firefox 56

[ael]

On Fri, Feb 24, 2017 at 11:36:24AM +0100, Didier Kryn wrote:
> Le 24/02/2017 03:31, Rick Moen a écrit :
> > , but Pale Moon looks pretty interesting: anybodyhere use it?
> 
> My conclusion is that the software is satisfactory but the maintainance
> isn't, not knowing if the problem is
> upstream or only with the maintainer of the repository I use.
> 
> > Do you trust them to keep up with security updates?

It seems to OK on debian testing:
$ dpkg -s palemoon
Package: palemoon
Status: install ok installed
Priority: optional
Section: web
Installed-Size: 99160
Maintainer: Steven Pusser 
Bugs: mailto: 
Architecture: amd64
Version: 27.1.1~repack-1
...
Pale Moon requires a processor that supports the SSE2 instruction set.
...

From /var/log/dpkg:
2017-02-23 11:36:11 status installed palemoon:amd64 27.1.1~repack-1
so last updated yesterday.

It is working on both amd64 & i386. 

ael

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Re: [DNG] Browsers

[KatolaZ]

On Fri, Feb 24, 2017 at 10:21:13AM +0100, Adam Borowski wrote:
> On Thu, Feb 23, 2017 at 07:39:56PM +, KatolaZ wrote:
> > On Thu, Feb 23, 2017 at 01:34:50PM -0500, Hendrik Boom wrote:
> > > Are there other Devuan-packaged lightweight browsers anyone might 
> > > recommend?  I may switch to chromium, but I doubt that it's 
> > > lightweight.
> > 
> > If you don't mind minimal stuff (i.e., a browser that just browse the
> > WWW and downloads files on request), then surf+tabbed is a very good
> > and stable solution. Here are the links:
> > 
> >   http://surf.suckless.org/
> >   http://tools.suckless.org/tabbed/
> 
> Uhm, no.  It doesn't have even the most necessary basics, like ad blocking. 
> Seriously, how can one humanly browse when 2/3 of the screen is full of
> flashing crap, not to mention all security and privacy issues?
> 

You can have ad-blocking, if you want:

http://surf.suckless.org/files/adblock-hosts

The truth is that if you want to keep a browser light you should let
it exclusively browse. All the rest should be handled in a proper way
by proper tools, working together in the old unix-style.

> 
> I say "security" despite a first-party site having same or more
> capabilities to exploit an unpatched issue than a third-party element, but
> in practice, the chances https://slashdot.org or https://devuan.org would
> run an attack are a wee bit less than a random sleazy ad peddler.
> 
> 

surf enforces TLS by default. You have to recompile if you want to
disable it. It also supports socks5 proxies, even through a simple
"ssh -D ...".

BTW, Hendrik asked for a "light" solution, and I suggested the one I
have found after years of frustration with the late Mozilla & Co.

I understand very well though that nowadays we are used to have
full-featured operating systems as browsers, so that "light" might
actually mean very different things to different people :)

My2Cents

KatolaZ

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Re: [DNG] default live Devuan username and password not easily available?

[Miroslav Rovis]

Thanks for all the replies.

To Hendrik, but also golinux, smallinovations.nl, KatolaZ, and even our
kind leader Jaromil.

On 170223-13:44-0500, Hendrik Boom wrote:
> On Thu, Feb 23, 2017 at 05:32:36PM +, KatolaZ wrote:
> > On Thu, Feb 23, 2017 at 04:26:46PM +0100, Miroslav Rovis wrote:
> > > On 170223-13:59+0100, Miroslav Rovis wrote:
> > > ...
> > > > default login username and password for (live media)
> > > > https://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?pid=573
> > > ...
> > > no replies so far.

> > Well, it's a mailing list, not a call center :)
> 
> That's the advantage of a mailing list over a call centre.  THe call 
> centre guy has to answer, even if he has nothing to say. 

I wasn't complaining. I was only stating the the my prospect of waiting
not too little.

Now regarding your suggestions.

I hope it'll work. But I apply a somewhat complex method. I build only
in Air-Gapped master machine (Gentoo now, will be also Devuan hopefully
soon), and work only from (same model hardware) clones of it.

And sometimes whatever the Air-Gapped master machine needs (and
obviously it can only get it from online) is not suck little time to
thoroughly check and copy/move into Air-Gapped.

So, I'm only now back (it took much more than usual this time, but it's
too unrelated to here, not worth distracting from this topic)...

And so I can only confirm reception of your kind replies.

Will be back to confirm it your suggestions worked.

In the meantime, I believe the main conclusion to draw here, is set
those suggestions in the Installation README, or anywhere close, such
that the next user does not have to go in search for them.
^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ 
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | 

I'm not complaining. But a user downloads Devuan, and it works, but she
doesn't have an installation README to tell her what the
usernama/password is for the media she downloaded. Bad!

And she is stuck in the terminal without a clue, because she wasn't told
anywhere prominently ||-> *prominently* < , alright! <-|| , that she
will need a username/password and that that username/password is that
and that.

Regards!

-- 
Miroslav Rovis
Zagreb, Croatia
http://www.CroatiaFidelis.hr


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Re: [DNG] Life After Firefox 56

[Didier Kryn]

Le 24/02/2017 03:31, Rick Moen a écrit :

, but Pale Moon looks pretty interesting: anybodyhere use it?


I installed it on two Devuan-Jessie machines. I installed the Zync 
(or some name like this) extension to switch language ,and the French 
language extension. I'm satisfied with it, but I keep Firefox-ESR as a 
backup. You will understand why below.


I'm using the package provided on opensuze.

There was a problem during an upgrade on one of my hosts, 
apparently an xml error in the start page, which rendered it unusable; 
therefore I kept the old version on the other machine. One month later, 
it worked again.


Two days ago I tried to upgrade it on the other machine and 
experienced the same issue. I purged the package
and was unable to find the package for amd64 anymore, only i386 was 
available. I copied the package from

the first machine and installed it and it works now.

My conclusion is that the software is satisfactory but the 
maintainance isn't, not knowing if the problem is

upstream or only with the maintainer of the repository I use.


Do you trust them to keep up with security updates?


Don't know if I can.

 Didier

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Re: [DNG] Browsers

[Adam Borowski]

On Thu, Feb 23, 2017 at 07:39:56PM +, KatolaZ wrote:
> On Thu, Feb 23, 2017 at 01:34:50PM -0500, Hendrik Boom wrote:
> > Are there other Devuan-packaged lightweight browsers anyone might 
> > recommend?  I may switch to chromium, but I doubt that it's 
> > lightweight.
> 
> If you don't mind minimal stuff (i.e., a browser that just browse the
> WWW and downloads files on request), then surf+tabbed is a very good
> and stable solution. Here are the links:
> 
>   http://surf.suckless.org/
>   http://tools.suckless.org/tabbed/

Uhm, no.  It doesn't have even the most necessary basics, like ad blocking. 
Seriously, how can one humanly browse when 2/3 of the screen is full of
flashing crap, not to mention all security and privacy issues?


I say "security" despite a first-party site having same or more
capabilities to exploit an unpatched issue than a third-party element, but
in practice, the chances https://slashdot.org or https://devuan.org would
run an attack are a wee bit less than a random sleazy ad peddler.


Meow!
-- 
Autotools hint: to do a zx-spectrum build on a pdp11 host, type:
  ./configure --host=zx-spectrum --build=pdp11
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Re: [DNG] Browsers

[Jaromil]

On Thu, 23 Feb 2017, Hendrik Boom wrote:

> Is this a kind of refugee syndrome?  never feeling I'm home any
> more?

if you are into such a syndrome, then get prepared to cry for days
whenever you will finally feel at home again.

about hotkeys in xfce, I had odd experienced both in Refracta and in
Devuan, that newly created hotkeys aren't responding. Does anyone has
the same experience?

ciao
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