Re: [DNG] I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[Nate Bargmann]

Hey, hey, hey!

What did my K3 do to deserve that?  Oh wait, you wrote K3s.

Carry on.  ;-)

- Nate, N0NB

P.S.  "W5dbus", "K3systemd".  I LOL'ed!

-- 

"The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all
possible worlds.  The pessimist fears this is true."

Ham radio, Linux, bikes, and more: http://www.n0nb.us
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Re: [DNG] some ASCII issues

[fsmithred]

On 06/22/2017 08:44 PM, Hendrik Boom wrote:
> On Thu, Jun 22, 2017 at 05:02:54PM -0400, Gary Olzeke wrote:
>> bash couldn't find 'nano' (I wanted to copy the 'sandbox' message)
>> bash was looking in /usr/bin/nano - it was at /bin/nano [per 'which'
>> command]
> 
> Could that be a side effect of debian/systemd's fusion of /usr with /?
> 

I believe it is. I ran into that when I was playing with sid over a year
ago and had to change a couple of my scripts to work with it. Maybe we
should just put all files in / so they'd be easier to find.  ;)

Oh, it gets even better. I've got /bin/nano in an upgrade to ascii, and
I've got both /bin/nano and /usr/bin/nano in an ascii live iso I just made
with live-sdk. No symlinks. Actual files. Same version in all cases (2.7.4).

Gary, do you not have /bin in your path?
echo $PATH

-fsr




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Re: [DNG] some ASCII issues

[Hendrik Boom]

On Thu, Jun 22, 2017 at 05:02:54PM -0400, Gary Olzeke wrote:
> bash couldn't find 'nano' (I wanted to copy the 'sandbox' message)
> bash was looking in /usr/bin/nano - it was at /bin/nano [per 'which'
> command]

Could that be a side effect of debian/systemd's fusion of /usr with /?

-- hendrik
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Re: [DNG] I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[Arnt Karlsen]

On Thu, 22 Jun 2017 14:55:07 +0200, Tomasz wrote in message 
<20170622125507.gb104...@mother.pipebreaker.pl>:

> On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 06:46:54PM +0200, Arnt Karlsen wrote:
> > 
> > ..for me, Devuan is a backup plan, I don't trust Ed Snowdon's
> > judgement
> 
>   You keep misspelling Snowden's last name. Is this deliberate?

..damned, no!  Thanks for the heads-up.

-- 
..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt Karlsen
...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry...
  Scenarios always come in sets of three: 
  best case, worst case, and just in case.
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Re: [DNG] I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[Arnt Karlsen]

On Wed, 21 Jun 2017 18:46:54 +0200, Arnt wrote in message 
<20170621184654.3d2d6...@nb6.lan>:

> On Wed, 21 Jun 2017 14:54:48 +0200, Antony wrote in message 
> <201706211454.48985.antony.st...@devuan.open.source.it>:
> 
> > On Wednesday 21 June 2017 at 14:44:34, KatolaZ wrote:
> > 
> > > Steve Jobs understood that users must be won with eyecandies, and
> > > on that side we will never be able to beat Apple. Not because Free
> > > Software cannot produce better eyecandies, but because the
> > > newly-won users, lured through eyecandies, would flee back to
> > > Apple as soon as Apple provides a more appealing set of
> > > eyecandies. We should win users on more fundamental aspects, like
> > > freedom, but you cannot force anybody to be free against their
> > > will. Freedom is a choice, to be made again every single day, and
> > > has a cost.
> > 
> > I've been following this discussion thread with interest - I'm
> > relatively new on this list, and it's been good to see the debate
> > and opinions going back and forth.
> > 
> > A fairly fundamental question strikes me about the entire topic,
> > though:
> > 
> >  - what is the Devuan project aiming to do, and who for?
> > 
> > 
> > I can think of a few potential answers to that myself, from the
> > simplistic:
> > 
> >  - It's Debian without systemd (as far as that is possible /
> > feasible)
> > 
> > to a more philosophical:
> > 
> >  - it's what we wished Debian had been if they hadn't gone down the
> > Gnome / systemd route
> > 
> > or maybe just a general:
> > 
> >  - it's a Linux distro for people who know that they don't want
> > systemd (which, in my opinion, eliminates a very large proportion of
> > "average computer users", who have no interest in what systemd is,
> > but want something to click on so they can use this "computer" tool)
> > 
> > If Devuan is aiming to be "a better Linux distro than any other",
> > has anyone actually defined what "better" means and who it applies
> > to?
> > 
> > 
> > I suppose what I'm really getting at is "who are Devuan's intended
> > user base (or 'market' if you prefer)?"
> 
> ..for me, Devuan is a backup plan, I don't trust Ed Snowdon's

...apologies, I meant Snowden's...

> judgement on Tor-on-top-of-systemd distros like Tails and Qube-OS, he
> is after all still stuck in Moscow, Russia on Putin's mercy.
> 
> ..and, one of these 2 sides _will_ be proven _wrong_ some time in the
> future.
> 
> > 
> > Thanks,
> > 
> > 
> > Antony.
> > 
> 
> 


-- 
..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt Karlsen
...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry...
  Scenarios always come in sets of three: 
  best case, worst case, and just in case.
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Re: [DNG] some ASCII issues

[Jaromil]

dear Gary

On Thu, 22 Jun 2017, Gary Olzeke wrote:

>recently did an ASCII upgrade from the CD install Jessie 1.0-0 64 bit
>(see my ASCII-install_notes on [1]dev1galaxy.org forum)

hearing from multi/media issues just makes me think dyne:bolic will be
totally fine with good old jack1 and qjackctl...

ciao :^)
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Re: [DNG] Eye candy: I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[Rick Moen]

Quoting Steve Litt (sl...@troubleshooters.com):

> On Wed, 21 Jun 2017 13:44:34 +0100
> KatolaZ  wrote:
> 
> > Steve Jobs understood that users must be won with eyecandies, and on
> > that side we will never be able to beat Apple. Not because Free
> > Software cannot produce better eyecandies, but because the newly-won
> > users, lured through eyecandies, would flee back to Apple as soon as
> > Apple provides a more appealing set of eyecandies.
> 
> I very well could be insane, but I've always thought that Windowmaker
> is extremely beautiful. I don't understand Windowmaker, and I can't get
> it to do what I need, but when it comes to eye candy, I find Windowmaker
> the best. Windowmaker is also lightweight, and as far as I know, it has
> no association with either systemd or dbus.
> 
> It would be cool as hell if somebody who likes the way Windowmaker
> looks could modify it to be more useable by someone understanding the
> Win9x user interface. If somebody does that, I'll help with the
> documentation.

This would of course be welcome, but runs against the grain of what
Window Maker is all about:  It's an implementation of the OPENSTEP
specification based on NeXT Computer's NeXTStep, which as some of us
aging fans of same know, was a proprietary BSD variant using Display
PostScript rather than X11 as its display engine.  NeXTStep charmed many
of us back in the day by being elegant, and uncluttered.  It was
extremely self-consistent and simple in its graphical UI, but that
graphical UI simply had different operational semantics than the
(metaphorical) genetic line of descent (in UI design) represented by
Motif -> Win3x -> Win9x -> WinNT.  And thus, the same is now true of
Window Maker and its (largely notional) GNUstep DE, those having been
directly inspired by NeXTStep.

Win9x-UI habituees might be happier with IceWM or something like that,
that actually aspires to behave more-or-less the way MS-Windows does.

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[DNG] some ASCII issues

[Gary Olzeke]

recently did an ASCII upgrade from the CD install Jessie 1.0-0 64 bit
(see my ASCII-install_notes on dev1galaxy.org forum)
'
these were some issues - I will start trying to debug them/investigate
and create bug reports
BUT I wanted to give a heads up!!
I didn't have these with the Jessie final version !!
'
  ISSUES (will create bugs if I can pinpoint
error)**
CD wouldn't open from front panel button - needed the filemgr to 'eject'
Thunar 1.6.11 reported as mounting, then .../media/cdrom was busy!!
'
VLC played ONE time as a normal user - (then tried as  'root')
wouldn't even open up the application after the one time
NO Sound/audio output from CD / web-browser (pulse-audio nothing showd!)
'
loaded (viaSynaptic) alsa-player-common & depends
this showed a data stream from CD but NO audio/sound
'
bash couldn't find 'nano' (I wanted to copy the 'sandbox' message)
bash was looking in /usr/bin/nano - it was at /bin/nano [per 'which'
command]
'
Synaptic no longer has scrunched text !!!
**that's it folks - for what its worth
the terminal "apt-get" way to install might be better -I used Synaptice
- used user 'root' as 'sudo' was not avail
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Re: [DNG] Dng Digest, Vol 33, Issue 46

[Alessandro Selli]

On Thu, 22 Jun 2017 at 18:39:26 +0100 (BST)
"G.W. Haywood"  wrote:

> Hi there,
>
> On Thu, 22 Jun 2017, parazyd wrote:
>
>> heads 0.3 released
>> ==
>>
>> Yet another featureful release!  
>
> But what is it?
>
> (I did three searches, got nothing but fasteners. :)

https://heads.dyne.org/

  In few words, it's a Tails-like live distribution, serving
the same purpose, less systemd and with a number of enhancements/improvements.


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Re: [DNG] backporting

[KatolaZ]

On Thu, Jun 22, 2017 at 01:59:14PM -0400, Hendrik Boom wrote:
> Are there instructions somewhere whereby a novice could backport a 
> package?  I'm interested in backportin opam and related stuff because 
> the opam in jessie is dangerously obsolete.  It is no longer 
> compatible with the opam archive format.
> 

The only problem might be that most of the times backporting a package
could imply backporting also some of its deps. For the rest, it might
possibly be relatively straightforward.

HND

KatolaZ

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Re: [DNG] Eye candy: I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[KatolaZ]

On Thu, Jun 22, 2017 at 12:34:25PM -0400, Steve Litt wrote:

[cut]

> 
> It would be cool as hell if somebody who likes the way Windowmaker
> looks could modify it to be more useable by someone understanding the
> Win9x user interface. If somebody does that, I'll help with the
> documentation.
>

Dear Steve,

the main problem is that WindowMaker is at the antipodes of Win9x user
interface, and IMVHO it would be almost impossible to bend it to that
purpose.

If moving icons around a desktop is your thing, then WindowMaker is
*not* your thing, since the main point of WMaker is *not* having icons
hanging around [*]. That's probably why most users dislike it.

Concerning the gloomy themes mentioned by somebody else, you can edit
and customise literally everything through WPrefs. So if the standard
themes look gloomy, just use your own preferred
colours/backgrounds. WMaker doesn't choose for you.

HND

KatolaZ

[*] Yes, you can still have a tree of icon-like objects hanging
around, but that is normally not that much practical.

-- 
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[ "+.  katolaz [at] freaknet.org --- katolaz [at] yahoo.it  ]
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Re: [DNG] Eye candy: I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[Joachim Fahrner]

Am 2017-06-22 18:34, schrieb Steve Litt:

I very well could be insane, but I've always thought that Windowmaker
is extremely beautiful. I don't understand Windowmaker, and I can't get
it to do what I need, but when it comes to eye candy, I find 
Windowmaker

the best. Windowmaker is also lightweight, and as far as I know, it has
no association with either systemd or dbus.


I often heard good things about windowmaker and tried it serveral times, 
but gave up some minutes after installing it. The themes are made for 
people living in a cave. All dark and making me depressing.


Are there windowmaker themes for normal people, not living in the dark?

Jochen

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[DNG] backporting

[Hendrik Boom]

Are there instructions somewhere whereby a novice could backport a 
package?  I'm interested in backportin opam and related stuff because 
the opam in jessie is dangerously obsolete.  It is no longer 
compatible with the opam archive format.

-- hendrik

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Re: [DNG] I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[Steve Litt]

On Wed, 21 Jun 2017 09:06:53 -0700
Bruce Perens  wrote:

> About the time I started working on Free Software, I also founded
> *No-Code International* with the goal of eliminating Morse Code exams
> as a requirement for the ham radio license, worldwide. This required
> a change in international law, the International Telecommunications
> Treaty of the ITU, a UN organization, and a corresponding change in
> the laws of many nations after that.
> 
> The president of TAPR (a digital ham communications organization)
> said in a keynote that we were looking at the end of ham radio within
> 20 years if we could not do something about the declining licensing
> of young people. He said that many of us would preside over the
> demise of ham radio in our lifetimes, and we sure didn't like that. I
> was out to reverse the trend.
>


Invalid analogy.

Not requiring Morse Code in no way interferes with those who want to
use Morse Code. A better analogy between code and systemd (with or
without Gnome as a gateway drug) would be something like this:

===
The new "systemd" radio specification eliminates the need for CW (Morse
Code) testing. It also specifies that, instead of turning the
transmitted carrier on and off, CW will now be via audio facilities,
with filters in receivers for specific audio frequencies.

The new specification allows multiseat: A facility by which multiple
transcievers can use the same audio frequency without interference.
Here's how it works:

When a transmitter comes on the air, it contacts a W5dbus repeater with
an on-air notification and a request for either CW or voice. W5dbus
contacts K3systemd, which either honors the request by returning the
audio frequency of the CW or 0 for voice, or returns 9 indicating a
refusal from which the transmitter can retry.

Once a transmitter is granted access, the k3systemd radio frequency is
returned by a W5dbus repeater, complete with timing info, so all radios
on that radio frequency operate at the exact same frequency (to which
the transmitter adjusts), so there are never beat frequencies. AF
filters filter out various audio frequencies for CW, and if a receiver
is listening to audio, the receiver receives info from K3systemd via
W5dbus telling it which dots and dashes to subtract out.

The new specification requires high gain, sharply directional antennas
rotateable in all directions and pointable to various angles from
horizontal. When two transcievers agree to talk, the secondary
transciever gives up its audio frequency and assumes the primary
transciever frequency, and systemd assigns antenna aims for them. If
either antenna fails to reply a comply, that transciever is
disconnected from the communication, and an error is transmitted back
to that transciever via the journalctl facility at 21,000 Hz audio.

This new system is much easier to troubleshoot than the antique
straight superhet that's been with us since the 1930's. The new system
replaces meters and dummy loads with modules such as journalctl and
systemctl.

For the next version of the systemd radio specification, the systemd
technologists have petitioned all the electric companies to adopt
systemd waveforms and signals in their power lines.
 
SteveT

Steve Litt 
June 2017 featured book: The Key to Everyday Excellence
http://www.troubleshooters.com/key
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Re: [DNG] I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[Hendrik Boom]

On Thu, Jun 22, 2017 at 07:39:26AM -1000, Joel Roth wrote:
> Hendrik Boom wrote:
> > I long for a proper Linux on my phone.
> 
> Virus-makers can install software on my phone with root
> capabilities, but I am not provided convenient tools to do
> so. 

I manage to get a root accout on my phone.  But even root only gets 
selective access to parts of the file system.  And hope you're lucky 
when you try to guess the names of the its of file system you are 
allowed to access.  Google seems to have found ways to geld root.

And the so-called "Debian on Android" needs no privileges, but seems 
to give you a closed-in fakeroot that has no access at all to the data 
on the phone.

I want to sync files between my phone and my laptop.  Doing that 
correctly requires revision management.

-- hendrik

> 
> -- 
> Joel Roth
>   
> 
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Re: [DNG] heads 0.3 released!

[KatolaZ]

On Thu, Jun 22, 2017 at 05:41:34PM +0200, para...@dyne.org wrote:
> heads 0.3 released
> ==
> 
> Yet another featureful release!
> 
> Due this month, I've managed to come with the promised release, and from
> now on, I'll be following the quarterly release scheme. This time we
> have some interface changes and a couple of nice features which are
> explained below.
> 

Well done parazyd! Congratulations!!!

HH

KatolaZ

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Re: [DNG] I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[Joel Roth]

Hendrik Boom wrote:
> I long for a proper Linux on my phone.

Virus-makers can install software on my phone with root
capabilities, but I am not provided convenient tools to do
so. 

-- 
Joel Roth
  

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Re: [DNG] Dng Digest, Vol 33, Issue 46

[G.W. Haywood]

Hi there,

On Thu, 22 Jun 2017, parazyd wrote:


heads 0.3 released
==

Yet another featureful release!


But what is it?

(I did three searches, got nothing but fasteners. :)

--

73,
Ged.
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Re: [DNG] I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[Hendrik Boom]

On Thu, Jun 22, 2017 at 06:27:19PM +0200, Alessandro Selli wrote:
> 
>   My experience differs: I heard many times non technical people bemoan the
> way their Android phone does things and ask me how that could be changed, how
> that could be taken away (usually pop-ups and notifications), how they could
> do this-or-that with fewer touches and scrolls.  And my answer a lot of the
> times is: "You cannot, they do not let users do that", and they are frustrated
> things are like this.

And all the competitors on the phone market have the same attitude.  

Except maybe that Nokia spinoff, whose phones don't use the 
frequencies Canadian carriers like.

Those nontechnical people are truly trapped. 

I long for a proper Linux on my phone.

-- hendrik
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[DNG] Eye candy: I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[Steve Litt]

On Wed, 21 Jun 2017 13:44:34 +0100
KatolaZ  wrote:

> Steve Jobs understood that users must be won with eyecandies, and on
> that side we will never be able to beat Apple. Not because Free
> Software cannot produce better eyecandies, but because the newly-won
> users, lured through eyecandies, would flee back to Apple as soon as
> Apple provides a more appealing set of eyecandies.

I very well could be insane, but I've always thought that Windowmaker
is extremely beautiful. I don't understand Windowmaker, and I can't get
it to do what I need, but when it comes to eye candy, I find Windowmaker
the best. Windowmaker is also lightweight, and as far as I know, it has
no association with either systemd or dbus.

It would be cool as hell if somebody who likes the way Windowmaker
looks could modify it to be more useable by someone understanding the
Win9x user interface. If somebody does that, I'll help with the
documentation.

DISCLAIMER: I am NOT suggesting that the Devuan project itself put
people on my idea: That would be a horrible misprioritization. I'm
just saying that if there's somebody who really wants to do it,
that would be a good idea and I'll help with the documentation.

SteveT

Steve Litt 
June 2017 featured book: The Key to Everyday Excellence
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Re: [DNG] heads 0.3 released!

[Alessandro Selli]

Il giorno Thu, 22 Jun 2017 17:41:34 +0200
"para...@dyne.org"  ha scritto:

> heads 0.3 released
> ==
>
> Yet another featureful release!

  Happy to read this, I will try it out.


  Thank you!


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Re: [DNG] I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[Steve Litt]

On Tue, 20 Jun 2017 23:55:00 -0700
Bruce Perens  wrote:

> > I agree, that 90% of the people are hapy with limited choice. But
> > as you  
> already said, that field is served by apple and M$. No > need for us
> to follow down that road. Salvation is not on to be found on the
> highway :-)
> 
> What you are saying is that you'd willingly leave the world to Apple
> and Microsoft rather than have more people run Free Software, if it
> means you have to deal with those messy other people. This isn't
> healthy for Free Software. Maybe not even healthy for you.

It's not about dealing with messy people, it's about dealing with
monolithically tangled software thumbing its nose at encapsulation and
interchangeable parts.

Other than that, your paragraph does indeed describe me. I said long
ago that if my only Linux or BSD choice is systemd, I'll move to Mac. I
don't use Free Software because it costs a hundred bucks less: I use it
because one way or another I'm technically and legally able to bend it
to my will. Others might not care about that, and that's fine, but I
care about it, and systemd means I can't technically bend it to my
will, making it non-free *for my purposes*. If I'm going to buy nonfree
(for my purposes) software, I might as well buy it from Apple, the guys
who do nonfree software right.

SteveT

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Re: [DNG] I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[Alessandro Selli]

On Thu, 22 Jun 2017 at 16:15:56 +0200
Radagast  wrote:

> On Thu, 22 Jun 2017 12:53:25 +0200
> Alessandro Selli  wrote:
>
>> they chose it because it was simple, easy to use
>> and came with a large number of wallpapers, themes and a full choice of
>> skins and element colours.
>
> Most of the non-geek people I know would choose a desktop experience
> because it just stays out of the way and lets them edit their documents and
> read their email.

  Different experience from mine, probably because we're dealing with
different kinds of people.  The people I introduced to a Linux distribution
where usually newbies to IT, they knew little of Windows too, they did not
have an important stack of Office documents to port from the old OS to the
new one.

[...]

> The problem is that FOSS is *all about choise* and these people *don't want
> to choose*. At least they don't want to put effort into choosing
> tech-solutions.

  I never wrote tech-solutions mattered any.  I quote myself:
«what they liked the most of it was not how much you can tune the kernel, the
filesystem, the scheduler or the networking kernel run-time parameters.
Instead what won they heart was how easily and how much they could tweak and
customise the way the desktop looked like and behaved.»

> They are quite happy letting Fruit INC or M$ or A Company
> That Derived It's Name From The Name Of A Very Large Number make their
> choices for them.

  My experience differs: I heard many times non technical people bemoan the
way their Android phone does things and ask me how that could be changed, how
that could be taken away (usually pop-ups and notifications), how they could
do this-or-that with fewer touches and scrolls.  And my answer a lot of the
times is: "You cannot, they do not let users do that", and they are frustrated
things are like this.

> If we want these people to use FOSS instead of
> $PROPRIETARY_SOLUTION then we need to provide as many sane and pleasant
> (GUI-)defaults as possible. Where the sane defaults are chosen based on a
> very solid understanding of the target non-geek userbase.

  "Sane and pleasant defaults" are surely a good thing, but they do not mean
people do not want things to be done they way they prefer.  Newcomers do not
spend time reconfiguring the GUI's appearance right from the start because
they must first learn the basics of the OS and the application.  But when
they feel fluent with the basic functions then they do turn to customisation
and extensions.

> On the other hand, I personally don't like any of the currently available
> desktop environments.

  Who does?  :-P
Not even those who develop them do!

> Why should I be forced to have ha panel or a systray
> or an icon indicating my WiFi- or battery-status that is allways visible?

  Uh?  What desktop are you using?  The two I use the most, XFCE and LXDE, do
not do that.

> I
> find these items distracting! I don't want to have to move my hands between
> the keyboard and the touchpad! So what are my choises? Hack up or pay up, I
> guess... 

  So, you see, there should be more choices, not fewer, more freedom to
customise settings and behaviour, not lesser.


  Bye,


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[DNG] heads 0.3 released!

[para...@dyne.org]

heads 0.3 released
==

Yet another featureful release!

Due this month, I've managed to come with the promised release, and from
now on, I'll be following the quarterly release scheme. This time we
have some interface changes and a couple of nice features which are
explained below.


## [download heads 0.3](https://files.dyne.org/heads/)


The much needed work on [Amprolla](https://github.com/parazyd/amprolla)
has been done, and hopefully soon, heads will integrate with the Devuan
CI so we can start building new packages and hardening existing ones.
This should help with the OpenGL library (libGL) relocation issues that
are caused on i386 due to the hardened kernel we are using.


Notable changes in heads 0.3:

Openbox instead of AwesomeWM


Since this release, the default desktop interface is based on Openbox,
combined with lxpanel and pcmanfm that act like a sane desktop. The
reasoning for this change is that users were complaining about Awesome
being difficult to use for newcomers and somewhat counterproductive.
However, it is still possible to boot into the old AwesomeWM desktop by
selecting the according menuentry on boot.


The Grsecurity situation


heads continues with the 4.9 LTS kernel. I see no benefit in joining the
KSPP train, or any similar initiative. linux-heads continues using the
unofficial forward-port of grsec that is being done by minipli:
https://github.com/minipli/linux-unofficial_grsec
These (deblobbed) forward-ports will be used until 4.9 support has ended
(January 2019), unless something amazing comes up.


permakey


The root filesystem now holds stripped sources of the kernel it's running
in order to allow compilation of kernel modules at boot time or in the
userspace. I've introduced a kernel module that will be compiled at boot
time if the system is **not** booted in `toram` mode. The module will
cause the system to slam all open tombs, wipe the RAM, files, and finally,
shut down the computer if the USB stick it's running from is plugged out.


Tor Browser 7
-

The Tor Browser has been bumped to version 7, and now introduces a
dependency on Pulseaudio if we want sound in Tor Browser. heads does not
ship with Pulseaudio so for the time being, there will be no sound in Tor
Browser.


Less bloat
--

In this release, I've managed to drop ConsoleKit and PolicyKit from the
system. We can also run Xorg without a login manager like lightdm, so
that has been cut out as well. eudev is now also the default hotplugging
daemon, which lays down the path for eventual OpenRC integration.

-- 
~ parazyd
GPG: 0333 7671 FDE7 5BB6 A85E  C91F B876 CB44 FA1B 0274


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Re: [DNG] I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[Radagast]

On Thu, 22 Jun 2017 12:53:25 +0200
Alessandro Selli  wrote:

> they chose it because it was simple, easy to use
> and came with a large number of wallpapers, themes and a full choice of skins
> and element colours.

Most of the non-geek people I know would choose a desktop experience because it 
just stays out of the way and lets them edit their documents and read their 
email. Not even customizing look and feel is of any importance to them. If they 
had the choise of not choosing then they would choose not to choose because 
they have other things on their minds like work or the garden or the kids or 
the wife/husband or something else.

The problem is that FOSS is *all about choise* and these people *don't want to 
choose*. At least they don't want to put effort into choosing tech-solutions. 
They are quite happy letting Fruit INC or M$ or A Company That Derived It's 
Name From The Name Of A Very Large Number make their choises for them. If we 
want these people to use FOSS instead of $PROPRIETARY_SOLUTION then we need to 
provide as many sane and pleasant (GUI-)defaults as possible. Where the sane 
defaults are chosen based on a very solid understanding of the target non-geek 
userbase.

On the other hand, I personally don't like any of the currently available 
desktop environments. Why should I be forced to have ha panel or a systray or 
an icon indicating my WiFi- or battery-status that is allways visible? I find 
these items distracting! I don't want to have to move my hands between the 
keyboard and the touchpad! So what are my choises? Hack up or pay up, I 
guess... 

/Radagast
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[DNG] Deliberate inflexibility

[Hendrik Boom]

On Thu, Jun 22, 2017 at 12:53:25PM +0200, Alessandro Selli wrote:

> 
>   You do *not* empower people taking away what they could easily do the day
> before and suddenly prevent them from even changing the desktop's
> aesthetics.  You do not empower non-technical users by forcing them into a
> "user experience" they do not like, they are vocally against, imposing them a
> new, unmodifiable GUI paradigm that disrupts the way they interacted with
> their desktop until they were force-fed the "innovation" by the devs.

Even Apple is driving some of their users away by this tactic.  My 
wife has decided that her next computer will not be an apple because 
with the current release of the OS (which she had to install because 
her application software wouldn't work properly without it) all the 
fonts and icons suddenly became too small to be readable.  Oh yes, she 
managedto find settings that changes this in some application 
software, but Apples supplied things remained unusable.

-- hendrik

> 
> 
>   Bye,
> 
> -- 
> Alessandro Selli http://alessandro.route-add.net
> VOIP SIP: dhatarat...@ekiga.net
> Chiavi PGP/GPG keys: B7FD89FD, 4A904FD9
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Re: [DNG] I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[Alessandro Selli]

customiOn Tue, 20 Jun 2017 at 23:32:46 -0700
Bruce Perens  wrote:

> The big conspiracy is that GNOME is breaking themes in GTK? Oh, the horror!

  Techies might not care much about the aesthetics, but a lot of newbies do.
I read of several people, in the early LUG days, who chose their desktop
based on how customizeable it was and how many themes and skins it came with
from the repos.  Please, don't downplay the eye-candy satisfaction, people
who can neither code nor sysadmin do love it.

> That's more than a little over the top.

  That's collateral damage from their way of doing Free Software: "We know
better than you, we don't care what you want/like/need, our goals trump
yours".  Go figure out how that attitude is going to win more people toward
FOSS?

> *I'm going to explain to you why GNOME has made the choices it has. *Not
> everyone here needs this explanation, but the folks who have so far failed
> to understand this have made themselves obvious. Sorry, guys.
>
> It's because the community that GNOME is serving is *not you. *

  We got that.  It's all over the wall.

> And it is very, very important for Free Software to serve a community that
> is not like us!

  Of course.  You seem to forget however that theme/skin developers are not
like plenty of us and are not like Gnome's devs.  Gnome has let down a lot of
people who are not like them, who do not fit with their corporate goals.

> One of the greatest problems in Free Software is that, so far, we make it
> just for us.

  What does this have to do with Gnome's attitude towards people who just
want to customize their desktop's aesthetics?

> So, we are the only folks who use it, and we don't get the
> rest of the world to use Free Software, and we lose out on any number of
> important things because of that. Important things for the* world,* and for
> Free Software. The rest of the world runs bad software and their security
> and privacy suck. They buy into DRM. What they do is controlled by big
> companies, because they have become slaves of their tools. They don't know
> what electronic freedom is. And for us: hardware doesn't support our
> software. Media doesn't support our software. I could go on...

  How does any of this have to do with Gnome dev's attitude against theme
developers?

> So, the GNOME folks decided to make Free Software that wasn't for geeky
> nerd software developers, theme-builders and theme-users. And this, to some
> of you, is a conspiracy or evil, but it is actually the most important
> thing that Free Software could do today.

  Bruce, please, relax, pop open a beer and think.
I did manage to have a few people use GNU/Linux distros who were not aware of
the difference between a hard disk and RAM.  They were absolutely not geeks,
the farthest kind of people I can think of from susceptible of being labelled
nerds.  One of them is my wife, and they all had one thing in common: they
had had no previous exposure to any OS.  They learned to use a computer on a
GNU/Linux distribution first (it was Fedora then) and what they liked the most
of it was not how much you can tune the kernel, the filesystem, the
scheduler or the networking kernel run-time parameters. Instead what won they
heart was how easily and how much they could tweak and customize the way the
desktop looked like and behaved. They did not chose Gnome2 over KDE or XFCE
or WindowMaker because of the licence, the OpenGL support, code portability or
elegance of project design; they chose it because it was simple, easy to use
and came with a large number of wallpapers, themes and a full choice of skins
and element colours. This is what you win non-technical people with: ease of
use, working software to do the essentials (browsing, email, media and office
docs) and eye-candy, customizeable aesthetics.

> Now, I know that some of you would rather just make the system for
> yourselves. There's two words for that: intellectual masturbation. What has
> you angry is *the challenge that you now grow up and start playing with
> other people.*

  What does this have to do with preventing people from customizing the
desktop's look?  When I "start playing with other people" I couldn't care
what WM or desktop they use, much less what skin or theme they set up on it.
That's because I cannot know, because I interact with them almost always
on-line.  I know what GUI/theme/skin/wallpaper they use as much as you know
what I am using now.

> The decision that SystemD sucks architecturally and is worth working hard
> to eliminate doesn't imply that we also have to make a nerds-only system to
> play with, ourselves. GNOME is leading the way out of that dead end. Try to
> understand how and why.

  We are not making "nerds-only system to play with, ourselves", but it does
take nerds to work hard to eliminate systemd from distributions that have it
by default.  And, again, this has nothing to do with Gnome's decision to
do all they could to frustrate people's 

Re: [DNG] I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[Alessandro Selli]

On Wed, 21 Jun 2017 at 13:44:34 +0100
KatolaZ  wrote:

[...]

> Steve Jobs understood that users must be won with eyecandies, and on
> that side we will never be able to beat Apple. Not because Free
> Software cannot produce better eyecandies, but because the newly-won
> users, lured through eyecandies, would flee back to Apple as soon as
> Apple provides a more appealing set of eyecandies.

  Which reminds me of something... here it is:

https://jonathanischwartz.wordpress.com/2010/03/09/good-artists-copy-great-artists-steal/

In 2003, after I unveiled a prototype Linux desktop called Project
Looking Glass*, Steve called my office to let me know the graphical
effects were “stepping all over Apple’s IP.” (IP = Intellectual
Property = patents, trademarks and copyrights.) If we moved forward
to commercialize it, “I’ll just sue you.”

  "If you can't beat them on the technology/eyecandy, sue them!"


-- 
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Re: [DNG] I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[Alessandro Selli]

Il giorno Thu, 22 Jun 2017 01:40:32 +0200
Antony Stone  ha scritto:

> On Wednesday 21 June 2017 at 23:58:26, Alessandro Selli wrote:
> 
> > On 21/06/2017 at 18:06, Bruce Perens wrote:
> > 
> > [...]
> > 
> > > I do seem to hear a lot of the same sentiment as the pro-code guys in
> > > this discussion. And I know where that goes. We didn't dumb anything
> > > down, we just got people to participate. And everything was better for
> > > it.
> > 
> >   I take you read the ignorant Guru's post at
> > https://igurublog.wordpress.com/2012/11/05/gnome-et-al-rotting-in-threes/
> > Please, would you point us out where are Gnome devs getting "people to
> > participate"?
> 
> I think you've mis-read the wording of Bruce's posting - he's not saying
> that the Gnome people have taken the attitude "We didn't dumb anything
> down, we just got people to participate. And everything was better for it."
>
> He's saying that about his own campaign to remove the Morse requirement
> from the Ham Radio qualifications.

  I did get that.  But I also understood Bruce was taking that campaign as a
similitude to what has been happening in the Gnome3 field.

> The point is that eliminating an increasingly-obscure and pointless 
> requirement from an entry-level exam to a controlled field of activity
> resulted in a significantly greater participation in that activity, once
> people didn't have to jump through that pointless hoop, just to be allowed
> in to "the club".

  All right, I'll rephrase my question: "what was 'obscure and pointless' in
Gnome's support of third party themes and extensions and popular, consolidated
features such as status icons?"  Gnome did not made things simpler in order to
allow more people on the van, they did the opposite: they kept braking APIs
and removing time-proven, popular features in order to make it harder to
people to participate, they took several decisions with the objective of
preventing people to change the way they wanted Gnome to behave and look
like: "I really think that every GNOME install should have the same core look
and feel. Otherwise, what is it that we are doing in the first place?" Allan
Day, Gnome developer.

> You're quite right - the Gnome devs are not getting people to participate 
> (unless they already fit the required mindset).

  Which proves that Bruce's examples of what he did to eliminate Morse
Code exams does not fit what is been discussed here, Gnome's design decisions
aimed at pushing people out of the way from "their" code, "their" desktop
experience.


  Bye,


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