Re: [DNG] Why did it take Devuan 2 years to replace systemd?
On Sat, Jul 08, 2017 at 09:35:06PM -0400, Steve Litt wrote: > Rather than argue the exact amount of time, I took his question at face > value and answered why it's so dam hard to alt-init a systemd-infested > system. You can see my answer here: > > http://troubleshooters.com/linux/systemd/bikebrakes.htm The break pads analogy isn't bad. Relating that to what actually needed to happen to turn debian jessie into devuan Jessie (assuming you're familiar enough with the process) would be even better. Greg -- web site: http://www.gregn.net gpg public key: http://www.gregn.net/pubkey.asc skype: gregn1 (authorization required, add me to your contacts list first) If we haven't been in touch before, e-mail me before adding me to your contacts. -- Free domains: http://www.eu.org/ or mail dns-mana...@eu.org ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Why did it take Devuan 2 years to replace systemd?
Geez. I had a Debian system go belly-up last night because /var got messed up. No journal, so you can't boot out of emergency mode. Can't mount a damned USB stick in emergency mode because udev isn't running. Got to boot a rescue disk to get anything done. We really have gone wrong... ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Why did it take Devuan 2 years to replace systemd?
Am 2017-07-09 17:10, schrieb Edward Bartolo: I have been running Devuan since August of two years ago, and I do not regret it. Being forced to do Linux the way seen from above, would have definitely killed my motivation to use a different OS completely. Devuan is giving me freedom; Devuan is not only about init freedom, but much much more. Devuan is about placing users' freedom at the heart of software design. Devuan is not about advertising a product that users must accept. If it were for that, its creation would have been useless. I totally agree with Edward. I feel also being a Unix Veteran. My first steps were with SCO Unix, Kodaks Interactive Unix, Suns Solaris and CDC's EP/IX, long before existence of Linux. I don't mind if its now called Linux or *BSD. Important is, that it's a open and free Unix compatible operating system. Red Hat and Mr. Poettering are trying (with success) to make Linux a monolithic and proprietary system like Windows is. This is not Unix, and this is not software freedom. My heart beats for BSD systems, but I'm using Linux because many applications I need are not available for BSD (vmware, drivers for chip card readers for onlne banking, and so on). But when Linux goes Windows (with systemd), that's not my OS. I hope that Devuan will win the fight, and keep Linux a free and open OS. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Why did it take Devuan 2 years to replace systemd?
On 2017-07-09 03:37, KatolaZ wrote: On Sat, Jul 08, 2017 at 09:35:06PM -0400, Steve Litt wrote: Hi all, I recently got an email that asked me the question (among others) "Why did it take Devuan 2 years to replace systemd?" Rather than argue the exact amount of time, I took his question at face value and answered why it's so dam hard to alt-init a systemd-infested system. You can see my answer here: http://troubleshooters.com/linux/systemd/bikebrakes.htm Very nice, but it's only half the answer. The thing is that if you want to be able to fix bikes, you also need a featureful bike laboratory, complete with all the tools to replace brakes, tune stuff, test bikes, fix problems, forge new bike parts, etc. In a word: infrastructure. My2Cents KatolaZ A laboratory is useless without all the busy elves using those tools and infrastructure. And fortunately, Devuan has attracted some very special, magical elves. Without them the project would have been DOA. . . . golinux ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Why did it take Devuan 2 years to replace systemd?
Like the majority of users of Devuan, at first, when Debian was forked and Devuan established, it was considered by the rest as a joke that cannot be taken seriously. The argument was Debian was too big a distribution to fork and systemd was 'the way to go'. Determination and perseverance have proven, even a 'bad taste joke', can be taken seriously. I have been running Devuan since August of two years ago, and I do not regret it. Being forced to do Linux the way seen from above, would have definitely killed my motivation to use a different OS completely. Devuan is giving me freedom; Devuan is not only about init freedom, but much much more. Devuan is about placing users' freedom at the heart of software design. Devuan is not about advertising a product that users must accept. If it were for that, its creation would have been useless. -- If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. (Albert Einstein) If you cannot make abstructions about details you do not understand the concepts underlying them. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Why did it take Devuan 2 years to replace systemd?
On 2017-07-09 09:22, Evilham wrote: Hello Douglas, Am 09/07/2017 um 14:42 schrieb Douglas Guptill: On Sat, Jul 08, 2017 at 11:13:16PM -0500, goli...@dyne.org wrote: Here are some ideas: https://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?id=589 Eventually something will light your fire. :) OK, thanks for that. Remember that a lot happens on irc too. I have installed irssi, and fired it up. But haven't yet had the courage to join the devuan irc. Never used irc before. But I'll try irc one day soon. Please don't doubt joining the #devuan channel, heck, join even the #devuan-dev channel. People are by far friendly (or direct-to-the-point informative, take it as lack of time for extreme politeness ;)). Even if you don't feel compelled to say hi at first, just lurking around can give you a sense of where things are moving and maybe give you some ideas of things that could be done but are not explicitly documented. Any chance someone (KatolaZ, parazyd etc.) could generate a list of packages in ASCII needing attention due to major breakages or needing removal of systemd dependencies? That would certainly motivate those wanting to help. golinux ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Why did it take Devuan 2 years to replace systemd?
Hello Douglas, Am 09/07/2017 um 14:42 schrieb Douglas Guptill: > On Sat, Jul 08, 2017 at 11:13:16PM -0500, goli...@dyne.org wrote: > >> Here are some ideas: https://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?id=589 Eventually >> something will light your fire. :) > > OK, thanks for that. > >> Remember that a lot happens on irc too. > > I have installed irssi, and fired it up. But haven't yet had the > courage to join the devuan irc. Never used irc before. But I'll try > irc one day soon. Please don't doubt joining the #devuan channel, heck, join even the #devuan-dev channel. People are by far friendly (or direct-to-the-point informative, take it as lack of time for extreme politeness ;)). Even if you don't feel compelled to say hi at first, just lurking around can give you a sense of where things are moving and maybe give you some ideas of things that could be done but are not explicitly documented. -- Evilham ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] wpa_supplicant - wlan0: No suitable network found
Le 09/07/2017 à 12:18, Ralph Ronnquist a écrit : KatolaZ wrote on 09/07/17 19:18: On Sun, Jul 09, 2017 at 12:09:01PM +0300, Lars Noodén wrote: I'm having an intermittent wireless problem on Ascii. On occasion I lose connection to an existing 802.11 5GHz wireless network or cannot reconnect after resuming suspend. It happens only occasionally and I can't yet get it to consistently fail or fail on demand. When this happens, the ongoing output from wpa_supplicant says "wlan0: No suitable network found" and "iwlist wlan0 scan" finds nothing. One thing that does work consistently is to plug in a 3G/4G modem during the wireless failure. Before the modem finishes booting the wireless connection is reestablished. What should I be looking for to try to solve this on my end? I am not sure but it looks like a possible driver/firmware/hardware failure, IMHO. Maybe you might find something related to your wifi drriver in dmesg close to the time when the wifi adapter stops working? You may have checked out https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/pm-utils already, otherwise it might be relevant advice; they suggest that you tell pm to unload the wifi module(s) on suspend, and reload on resume. Had a look at the link and found (on my old Wheezy) that there are ifplugd scripts under /etc/pm/ and these scripts explicitely depend on Udev actions. But, since Udev is now part of SystemDisease, do you know if the expected Udev actions are generic hotplugger actions or some particular entanglement between Ifplugd and Systemd, both being potterware? Didier ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Why did it take Devuan 2 years to replace systemd?
On Sat, Jul 08, 2017 at 11:13:16PM -0500, goli...@dyne.org wrote: > Here are some ideas: https://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?id=589 Eventually > something will light your fire. :) OK, thanks for that. > Remember that a lot happens on irc too. I have installed irssi, and fired it up. But haven't yet had the courage to join the devuan irc. Never used irc before. But I'll try irc one day soon. Thanks, Douglas. -- Bold character derived from stubborn patience and adversity. == Douglas Guptill email: dgupt...@accesswave.ca ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] wpa_supplicant - wlan0: No suitable network found
KatolaZ wrote on 09/07/17 19:18: On Sun, Jul 09, 2017 at 12:09:01PM +0300, Lars Noodén wrote: I'm having an intermittent wireless problem on Ascii. On occasion I lose connection to an existing 802.11 5GHz wireless network or cannot reconnect after resuming suspend. It happens only occasionally and I can't yet get it to consistently fail or fail on demand. When this happens, the ongoing output from wpa_supplicant says "wlan0: No suitable network found" and "iwlist wlan0 scan" finds nothing. One thing that does work consistently is to plug in a 3G/4G modem during the wireless failure. Before the modem finishes booting the wireless connection is reestablished. What should I be looking for to try to solve this on my end? I am not sure but it looks like a possible driver/firmware/hardware failure, IMHO. Maybe you might find something related to your wifi drriver in dmesg close to the time when the wifi adapter stops working? You may have checked out https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/pm-utils already, otherwise it might be relevant advice; they suggest that you tell pm to unload the wifi module(s) on suspend, and reload on resume. The method would be the same in Devuan: add a file as /etc/pm/config.d/modules with the one-liner, for example SUSPEND_MODULES="iwlwifi" (replace iwlwifi with the wifi module(s) you have) Ralph. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] wpa_supplicant - wlan0: No suitable network found
On Sun, Jul 09, 2017 at 12:09:01PM +0300, Lars Noodén wrote: > I'm having an intermittent wireless problem on Ascii. On occasion I > lose connection to an existing 802.11 5GHz wireless network or cannot > reconnect after resuming suspend. It happens only occasionally and I > can't yet get it to consistently fail or fail on demand. > > When this happens, the ongoing output from wpa_supplicant says "wlan0: > No suitable network found" and "iwlist wlan0 scan" finds nothing. > > One thing that does work consistently is to plug in a 3G/4G modem during > the wireless failure. Before the modem finishes booting the wireless > connection is reestablished. What should I be looking for to try to > solve this on my end? > I am not sure but it looks like a possible driver/firmware/hardware failure, IMHO. Maybe you might find something related to your wifi drriver in dmesg close to the time when the wifi adapter stops working? HND KatolaZ -- [ ~.,_ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ - GLUGCT -- Freaknet Medialab ] [ "+. katolaz [at] freaknet.org --- katolaz [at] yahoo.it ] [ @) http://kalos.mine.nu --- Devuan GNU + Linux User ] [ @@) http://maths.qmul.ac.uk/~vnicosia -- GPG: 0B5F062F ] [ (@@@) Twitter: @KatolaZ - skype: katolaz -- github: KatolaZ ] signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] wpa_supplicant - wlan0: No suitable network found
I'm having an intermittent wireless problem on Ascii. On occasion I lose connection to an existing 802.11 5GHz wireless network or cannot reconnect after resuming suspend. It happens only occasionally and I can't yet get it to consistently fail or fail on demand. When this happens, the ongoing output from wpa_supplicant says "wlan0: No suitable network found" and "iwlist wlan0 scan" finds nothing. One thing that does work consistently is to plug in a 3G/4G modem during the wireless failure. Before the modem finishes booting the wireless connection is reestablished. What should I be looking for to try to solve this on my end? Regards, Lars ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Why did it take Devuan 2 years to replace systemd?
On Sat, Jul 08, 2017 at 09:35:06PM -0400, Steve Litt wrote: > Hi all, > > I recently got an email that asked me the question (among others) "Why > did it take Devuan 2 years to replace systemd?" > > Rather than argue the exact amount of time, I took his question at face > value and answered why it's so dam hard to alt-init a systemd-infested > system. You can see my answer here: > > http://troubleshooters.com/linux/systemd/bikebrakes.htm > Very nice, but it's only half the answer. The thing is that if you want to be able to fix bikes, you also need a featureful bike laboratory, complete with all the tools to replace brakes, tune stuff, test bikes, fix problems, forge new bike parts, etc. In a word: infrastructure. My2Cents KatolaZ -- [ ~.,_ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ - GLUGCT -- Freaknet Medialab ] [ "+. katolaz [at] freaknet.org --- katolaz [at] yahoo.it ] [ @) http://kalos.mine.nu --- Devuan GNU + Linux User ] [ @@) http://maths.qmul.ac.uk/~vnicosia -- GPG: 0B5F062F ] [ (@@@) Twitter: @KatolaZ - skype: katolaz -- github: KatolaZ ] signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Why did it take Devuan 2 years to replace systemd?
Hi Steve. Steve Litt - 08.07.17, 21:35: > I recently got an email that asked me the question (among others) "Why > did it take Devuan 2 years to replace systemd?" > > Rather than argue the exact amount of time, I took his question at face > value and answered why it's so dam hard to alt-init a systemd-infested > system. You can see my answer here: Thank you. This very much nails the point. This and the social and behavorial issues with some of the upstream developers are the top most reasons for replacing it with something different. Thank you. -- Martin ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
