Re: [DNG] I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[Rick Moen]

Quoting Miroslav Rovis (miro.ro...@croatiafidelis.hr):

> But if they make good backups and are able to restore their system, why not 
> try
> it on the real system? 

Of course!  My point was merely that initial experimentation on a VM is
more attractive because you are not risking a real system and can
recover from mishap very easily.  Speaking for myself, I might have
waited a long time before experimenting with inits if I'd been able to
do so only by risking screwing up an entire real native-OS Linux system.


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Re: [DNG] Forums: was I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[Rick Moen]

Quoting Steve Litt (sl...@troubleshooters.com):

> A mailing list is like vendors shipping to your house.
> 
> Forums are like calling 15 stores to see whether they have any orders
> for you yet.

I may have to FAQ this on my Web site, because it keeps coming up.

1.  There are far greater social and technical factors that motivate /
create an incentive towards strong, centralised content control on Web
forums, with the result that regimes of active moderation and
retromoderation are much more common, hence the result tends to be 
more strongly stifled by the admins than on mailing lists.  (I can
picture my friend Steve Litt rising to complain about debian-user,
and can only say 'Hold that thought, Steve.')

2.  In particular, because on Web forums there is (typically) nothing
anywhere near as effective as are killfiles (old school, e.g., mutt) or
scorefiles (new school, e.g., emacs Gnus) available to participants to
avoid seeing what/who annoys them, instead the forum admins are under
greater social pressure to enforce social conformity against everyone, 
with stifling results.

In case the contrast between the two models is not obvious, note this
statement of policy at Silicon Valley Linux User Group for its mailing
lists, which may be a more stark expression of attitude than most but 
I would maintain reflects an ethos common among mailing list admins:

  SVLUGs' listadmins normally intervene only to ensure lists' technical
  operation, to halt spam (incontrovertible spam, not postings someone
  merely dislikes), and to halt major eruptions of offtopic spew.
  Enforcement if any should always be minimal and public. (We don't do
  backroom politics, and our preferred means of social control is to help
  everyone apply his/her own well-tuned killfile.)

http://www.svlug.org/policies/list-policy.php

(Necessary disclaimer:  I wrote that, codifying consensus among the
active volunteers and SVLUG tradition.)


3.  It is relatively difficult (or at least requires non-default
anticipatory action) to independently preserve local copies of one's Web
forum postings against the (strong) possibility of that Web forum
folding up its tent in the night and disappearing.  By contrast, I
still have automatically made archival copies of my outgoing posts to
mailing lists and newsgroups going all the way back to the 1980s, and
have in some cases HTMLised those a decade or two later to create
articles for my http://linuxmafia.com/kb/ knowledgebase.  By contrast,
the Web forum posts I've lavished time on since the mid-1990s have
pretty nearly all vanished when those forums suddenly went away without
advance notice.

4.  Which reminds me:  Web forums have over the decades since the 1990s
tended, disproportionately to get clobbered (to suddenly die, to vanish
off the Web, to go 'Poof!') without notice.  Sometimes, this is caused
by a corporation hiring some new Web weenie who decides to make a name
for himself/herself by jettisoning everything the prior Web weenie did
including choice of Web forum software -- and the new Web weenie feels
not the slightest obligation to port over to the new implementation
anything people posted to the existing forums.  That's merely 'Web
content', and, if the suckers who wrote that valued what they wrote, why
did they post it onto a corporation's proprietary forum without charge?
So, all existing content gets blown away without a second thought.
Denizens of InfoWorld Electric went through this process twice before
some of us learned the obvious lesson.  The third iteration was a
ghost-town.  (I'm sure Web weenie #3 trotted out a fluent excuse for
IDG/Infoworld management, explaining the sudden lack of participants +
traffic.)

In that regard, it's probably significant that it's pretty easy to carry
forward archives and membership rosters from one host to its replacement
or from (e.g.) majordomo to Sympa to Mailman, because the underlying
data formats are stable and commoditised.  Web forums, not.

5.  Web forums have poor presence in Web search prominence and archives
like Wayback Machine / Internet Archive.  (In fairness and in contrast,
crowdsourced knowledgebase sites like StackExchange are uncommonly good
in those areas.)

6.  In part because of the relative difficulty of preserving local
copies of one's posts, in part because of the no-killfiles problem,
and in part because of the webmasters-blowing-everything-away problem, 
and in part because of poor search presence, experienced computer users
are more likely than not to prefer mailing lists / newsgroups over Web
forums, which in turn impairs the latter's percentage of well-informed
users _in general_ (with honourable exceptions such as, I assume,
http://dev1galaxy.org/ ).  Which in turn is a further disincentive for
experienced users to participate.

7. Mailing lists and newsgroups benefit, substantially from an
established user culture that pretty well supports substantive
discussion.  Web forums, not so well.

All IMO and in my 

Re: [DNG] I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[Miroslav Rovis]

On 170712-13:05-0700, Rick Moen wrote:
> Quoting Miroslav Rovis (miro.ro...@croatiafidelis.hr):
> 
> > It's good that you linked to it. May need testing.
> 
> As per usual.  ;->
> 
> > And is good advice to GNU/Linux users to try it.
> 
> I particularly wanted to encourage users to conduct this and similar
> experiments _in virtual machines_.  Probably most people have the same
> aversion I do to touching the core of a system, after the embarrassment
> and trauma of making an entire real system unbootable because of one
> little tweak to the bootloader or similar component.  I figure any
> longime *nix person has that reflexive reaction of 'Don't touch it.
> It's not broken.'  _So_, it's helpful to point out that appropriate use
> of VM technology lets you carry out potentially destabilising procedures
> and revert to a checkpointed VM state if it doesn't work out.  (It
> emboldens, you see.)
But if they make good backups and are able to restore their system, why not try
it one the real system? 
> > And because it might turn out just great tool in the
> > hands of our camp: the non-poetterware, non-lendows, no systemDestruction 
> > pure
> > time-honored u*nix GNU/Linux camp. With OpenRC, they can't say anything is
> > obsolete, antiquated, overly complex, non-developed... I will shine in
> > comparison to systemd. And users will like it.
> 
> Some will.  À chacun son goût,
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6uEmtn56M0
Right! De gustibus non est disputandum. 
> (Johann Strauss II war sehr international, aber sein französisch war
> nicht sehr gut.)
> (Bitte entschuldige ich meine schlechte Kenntnis der deutschen Sprache.)
Meine Deutsche Kenntnis is sehr zu wenig to verstehe was die singen. Nur sehr
sehr wenig. Aber Strauss ist super!
( translation: My knowledge of German is way too little to understand what
those sing. Only very very little. But Strauss is great! ; at least that's what
I tried to say :) )
> 
> 
> > Look, that page of yours
> > https://linuxmafia.com/faq/Debian/openrc-conversion.html
> > is great,
> 
> You are too kind.
> 
> (Previše ste ljubazni.  ;->  )
trans.: You are too kind.

Od srca hvala vama, na stranici i na vašoj ljubaznosti!
trans: (my) Heartfelt thanks go to you, for your page and for you kindness!

-- 
Miroslav Rovis
Zagreb, Croatia
https://www.CroatiaFidelis.hr


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[DNG] Forums: was I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[Steve Litt]

On Wed, 12 Jul 2017 23:34:48 +0200
Svante Signell  wrote:


> (personally I heavily dislike forums :( Why not use plain email and
> publish stuff on web pages??)

A mailing list is like vendors shipping to your house.

Forums are like calling 15 stores to see whether they have any orders
for you yet.

When you sign up for a mailman type mailing list, you don't promise to
do squat.

When you sign up for a forum, you typically sign a 2000 word terms of
service with an indemnification such that if a third party sues the
forum vendor for something you allegedly did, your house is on the
line. And of course every forum has its own unique terms of service,but
they all have indemnifications, just different types.

When someone responds to one of your old mailing list posts, the
response comes to you, in context, ready to reply.

When somebody responds to your old post on a forum, you get an email
and have to remember your password to sign onto the forum. You have to
find the old post and figure out its context.

So far I've spoken of forums the way they existed in the 20th century.
There's a special place in hell for those advocating a free software
project go through a proprietary middleman like Google, Facebook,
Meetup, LinkedIn or Yahoo for forum-like activities (groups). When they
do that, I resign from the group and find a new one. There's always
another group when one goes to the proprietary dark side.

Invariably, when a mailinglist converts to a forum, especially one of
the new breed of oh-so-hip proprietary middlemen, conversation drops
off to a trickle, although Dev1 Galaxy seems to be doing better than a
trickle.

And then there's this: Forums are like those nice little loyal customer
savings fobs that every retailer gives you to put on your keyring to
get discounts. But that's just it. Every retailer. You end up with a
keyring with 4 keys and 100 fobs, bulging out of your pants. Heck, at
least the fobs don't require a password like forums do. I can't join
a forum for every, or even 1/10, of the excellent mailing lists to
which I belong. So whose forum should I choose, Devuan, Supervision,
GoLUG, Trilug, Inkscape, Publishers-Forum, Vim, VimOutliner, DIYPython,
Leo, or the 20 other excellent LUG lists to which I belong? Evvverybody
thinks theirs is the best and worth extra effort, but really, they're
all good and the ones demanding extra attention are more of a problem
than a solution.

There's a reason mailing lists and chat do well: All your passwords are
handled by the client (or in the case of a mailing list, not at all).


SteveT

Steve Litt 
July 2017 featured book: Quit Joblessness: Start Your Own Business
http://www.troubleshooters.com/startbiz
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Re: [DNG] Linus can no longer trust "init"

[Brad Campbell]

On 13/07/17 00:56, Dragan FOSS wrote:

On 07/12/2017 07:18 AM, Brad Campbell wrote:

Did I miss something


Yes.. ;)
When I wrote "recommends", and your interpretation of this word is
"mandating", I have no choice but to think that your reading system is,
to put it mildly, funny :)


Nope. Not at all. I don't see that postgres is "recommending" systemd at 
all. All they are saying is "if you want to use it with systemd, we have 
this option to make it easier for you". No recommendation in that and 
they are certainly not mandating.



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Re: [DNG] I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[zap]

On 07/12/2017 05:34 PM, Svante Signell wrote:
> On Wed, 2017-07-12 at 12:14 +, Miroslav Rovis wrote:
>> On 170711-23:18+0200, Svante Signell wrote:
>> Now it's sorted right, I hope:
>> OpenRC installation in Devuan Ascii
>> https://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?id=1128#p328
> Just FTR, zap got the amd64 packages from me too, and then sent them to
> you. You can see that if your follow the email thread. (and I'm the
> person to blame if something goes wrong)
>
> (personally I heavily dislike forums :( Why not use plain email and
> publish stuff on web pages??)
Yes, I did get my packages from you. Thank you.

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Re: [DNG] I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[Rick Moen]

Quoting Svante Signell (svante.sign...@gmail.com):

> (personally I heavily dislike forums :( Why not use plain email and
> publish stuff on web pages??)

I _tend_ to share your view, but we should always beware of what I call
FirstThursdayism.  If I were really mean, I'd call it McLoughlinism,
but I'm trying to be nice.  Time for a story


Back in the late 1980s/early 1990s, I was editor of the 40 page monthly
magazine _Blue Notes_ for San Francisco PC User Group.  SFpcUG had a
talent for committing interesting organisational errors in a large and
creative variety of ways, and I always looked forward with eager
anticipation to the next one.  (I immortalised one such anecdote about
SFpcUG politics in the Linux User Group HOWTO,
http://linuxmafia.com/lug/User-Group-HOWTO-7.html#ss7.4 .)

One time, SFpcUG President Tom McLoughlin was trying to figure out what
was the best day of the week for the monthly meeting.  (I try not to
mock Tom.  He's a nice guy, and was trying to do the right thing for
members.)  Tom dealt with his statistical sampling problem, thus:

1.  Convene the current first Thursday meeting at the current location.
2.  Ask how many members in attendence like first Thursdays.

Trying not to smile, I gently pointed out his unquestioned assumption
that the subset of the membership present on the meeting was
sufficiently representative of the whole.  In particular, I said, it's
entirely possible that people present on first Thursdays have a higher
than average likelihood of finding first Thursdays convenient, and, if
he'd asked a second Wednesdays crowd the same question, he'd be
astonished at how much they tended to prefer that.

A high proportion of people on mailing lists think mailing lists are great.
A high proportion of people on Web forums think Web forums are great.

Parties in my back yard are of course better than both, according to 
a poll of people attending parties in my back yard.

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Re: [DNG] I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[Svante Signell]

On Wed, 2017-07-12 at 12:14 +, Miroslav Rovis wrote:
> On 170711-23:18+0200, Svante Signell wrote:
> > 
> Now it's sorted right, I hope:
> OpenRC installation in Devuan Ascii
> https://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?id=1128#p328

Just FTR, zap got the amd64 packages from me too, and then sent them to
you. You can see that if your follow the email thread. (and I'm the
person to blame if something goes wrong)

(personally I heavily dislike forums :( Why not use plain email and
publish stuff on web pages??)

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Re: [DNG] I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[Rick Moen]

Quoting Miroslav Rovis (miro.ro...@croatiafidelis.hr):

> It's good that you linked to it. May need testing.

As per usual.  ;->

> And is good advice to GNU/Linux users to try it.

I particularly wanted to encourage users to conduct this and similar
experiments _in virtual machines_.  Probably most people have the same
aversion I do to touching the core of a system, after the embarrassment
and trauma of making an entire real system unbootable because of one
little tweak to the bootloader or similar component.  I figure any
longime *nix person has that reflexive reaction of 'Don't touch it.
It's not broken.'  _So_, it's helpful to point out that appropriate use
of VM technology lets you carry out potentially destabilising procedures
and revert to a checkpointed VM state if it doesn't work out.  (It
emboldens, you see.)

> And because it might turn out just great tool in the
> hands of our camp: the non-poetterware, non-lendows, no systemDestruction pure
> time-honored u*nix GNU/Linux camp. With OpenRC, they can't say anything is
> obsolete, antiquated, overly complex, non-developed... I will shine in
> comparison to systemd. And users will like it.

Some will.  À chacun son goût,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6uEmtn56M0

(Johann Strauss II war sehr international, aber sein französisch war
nicht sehr gut.)

(Bitte entschuldige ich meine schlechte Kenntnis der deutschen Sprache.)


> Look, that page of yours
> https://linuxmafia.com/faq/Debian/openrc-conversion.html
> is great,

You are too kind.

(Previše ste ljubazni.  ;->  )

> Regards!
> -- 
> Miroslav Rovis

Med vennlig hilsen,
Rick M.

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Re: [DNG] I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[Miroslav Rovis]

On 170712-07:19-0700, Rick Moen wrote:
> Quoting Miroslav Rovis (miro.ro...@croatiafidelis.hr):
> 
> > Now it's sorted right, I hope:
> > OpenRC installation in Devuan Ascii
> > https://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?id=1128#p328
> > 
> > And I also edited:
> > ( same topic )
> > https://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?id=1128#p3249
> > because it is linked from:
> > https://linuxmafia.com/faq/Debian/openrc-conversion.html
> > to avoid both any confusion for potential OpenRC Devuan users, and send 
> > them,
> > in this interim period that it is needed, to the download page, and point 
> > them
> > to where to (likely) look for news about OpenRC.
> 
> I hope I've not created confusion, in linking to pages at dev1galaxy.org
> that describe how to deal with the interim situation (while Devuan's
> support for OpenRC is tentative and requires some attention).
No, it's my fault. Of all the somewhat disparate and incomplete, and above all
scattered, information, I forwent Adam Borowski's repo, because right then zap
had kindly sent me the packages...

It's good that you linked to it. May need testing. And is good advice to
GNU/Linux users to try it. And because it might turn out just great tool in the
hands of our camp: the non-poetterware, non-lendows, no systemDestruction pure
time-honored u*nix GNU/Linux camp. With OpenRC, they can't say anything is
obsolete, antiquated, overly complex, non-developed... I will shine in
comparison to systemd. And users will like it.

> To explain:  I recently added text and links because I felt mildly guilty
> over possibly having overpraised the OpenRC package in Debian Jessie;  I
> vaguely recalled seeing posts here a year ago pointing to its deficiencies
> relative to Gentoo/Funtoo's upstream version -- so I went hunting in the
> archives to find those remarks, and in the process came across more material
> about Ascii's package and the need to currently supply a locally rebuilt
> util-linux to make it work (and added coverage of that).
Look, that page of yours
> > https://linuxmafia.com/faq/Debian/openrc-conversion.html
is great, I spent hours this morning. How do you think I would have noticed you
linked to Dev1Galaxy OpenRC topic that I started?... It's not obvious, no
dev1galaxy string verbatim to be found, only in the HTML source.
> 
> Perhaps in a few months, I can simplify my page's coverage after Ascii's 
> implementation gets settled in.  Meanwile, if you can suggest
> improvements, I'd be delighted to make them.
No, I believe other readers will find it useful too. It already is just fine.

But it's a starting poing, a reference point. She or he who does not shirk from
work, can learn a lot by following your links...  And it's hours upon hours if
one delves into it. And then only your own passages shine clearer light to the
mind... I had only a few hours this morning...

Regards!
-- 
Miroslav Rovis
Zagreb, Croatia
https://www.CroatiaFidelis.hr


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Re: [DNG] Linus can no longer trust "init"

[Dragan FOSS]

On 07/12/2017 07:18 AM, Brad Campbell wrote:

Did I miss something


Yes.. ;)
When I wrote "recommends", and your interpretation of this word is 
"mandating", I have no choice but to think that your reading system is, 
to put it mildly, funny :)


Cheers,
Dragan
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Re: [DNG] 404.

[G.W. Haywood]

Hi there,

On Wed, 12 Jul 2017, Didier Kryn wrote:


Just after you have installed d1h, remove from your
/etc/apt/source.list the line
|deb http://packages.devuan.org/devuan/ experimental main|

Or you risk to have problems next time you do an apt-get upgrade


Good point, thanks, I'll put that in the TODO list.

KatolaZ - sorry, I'm a bit pressed at the office right now so there'll
be a brief pause in my activity here.

--

73,
Ged.
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Re: [DNG] I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[Adam Borowski]

On Wed, Jul 12, 2017 at 03:42:14PM +0100, KatolaZ wrote:
> On Wed, Jul 12, 2017 at 04:35:22PM +0200, Adam Borowski wrote:
> > Benda Xu has recently updated the package in unstable to 0.27-1, this is the
> > version where comments would be most relevant.
> 
> Shall we try then to build the pakage for Devuan unstable, and let it
> percolate down to ascii after it has been tested?

I think the one in stretch/ascii should be good enough; backporting should
be considered only after someone identifies a good reason for doing so.

-- 
⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀ 
⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ A dumb species has no way to open a tuna can.
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ A smart species invents a can opener.
⠈⠳⣄ A master species delegates.
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Re: [DNG] I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[KatolaZ]

On Wed, Jul 12, 2017 at 04:35:22PM +0200, Adam Borowski wrote:
> On Wed, Jul 12, 2017 at 07:19:01AM -0700, Rick Moen wrote:
> > I felt mildly guilty
> > over possibly having overpraised the OpenRC package in Debian Jessie;  I
> > vaguely recalled seeing posts here a year ago pointing to its
> > deficiencies relative to Gentoo/Funtoo's upstream version -- so I went
> > hunting in the archives to find those remarks, and in the process came
> > across more material about Ascii's package and the need to currently
> > supply a locally rebuilt util-linux to make it work (and added coverage
> > of that).
> > 
> > Perhaps in a few months, I can simplify my page's coverage after Ascii's 
> > implementation gets settled in.  Meanwile, if you can suggest
> > improvements, I'd be delighted to make them.
> 
> Benda Xu has recently updated the package in unstable to 0.27-1, this is the
> version where comments would be most relevant.
> 

Shall we try then to build the pakage for Devuan unstable, and let it
percolate down to ascii after it has been tested?

My2Cents

KatolaZ

-- 
[ ~.,_  Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ - GLUGCT -- Freaknet Medialab  ]  
[ "+.  katolaz [at] freaknet.org --- katolaz [at] yahoo.it  ]
[   @)   http://kalos.mine.nu ---  Devuan GNU + Linux User  ]
[ @@)  http://maths.qmul.ac.uk/~vnicosia --  GPG: 0B5F062F  ] 
[ (@@@)  Twitter: @KatolaZ - skype: katolaz -- github: KatolaZ  ]


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Re: [DNG] I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[Rick Moen]

Quoting Miroslav Rovis (miro.ro...@croatiafidelis.hr):

> Now it's sorted right, I hope:
> OpenRC installation in Devuan Ascii
> https://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?id=1128#p328
> 
> And I also edited:
> ( same topic )
> https://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?id=1128#p3249
> because it is linked from:
> https://linuxmafia.com/faq/Debian/openrc-conversion.html
> to avoid both any confusion for potential OpenRC Devuan users, and send them,
> in this interim period that it is needed, to the download page, and point them
> to where to (likely) look for news about OpenRC.

I hope I've not created confusion, in linking to pages at dev1galaxy.org
that describe how to deal with the interim situation (while Devuan's
support for OpenRC is tentative and requires some attention).  To
explain:  I recently added text and links because I felt mildly guilty
over possibly having overpraised the OpenRC package in Debian Jessie;  I
vaguely recalled seeing posts here a year ago pointing to its
deficiencies relative to Gentoo/Funtoo's upstream version -- so I went
hunting in the archives to find those remarks, and in the process came
across more material about Ascii's package and the need to currently
supply a locally rebuilt util-linux to make it work (and added coverage
of that).

Perhaps in a few months, I can simplify my page's coverage after Ascii's 
implementation gets settled in.  Meanwile, if you can suggest
improvements, I'd be delighted to make them.

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Re: [DNG] kernel drivers [WAS: How long should I expect to wait for openrc to be ready in devuan ascii]

[Didier Kryn]

Le 11/07/2017 à 21:22, Jamey Fletcher a écrit :

That sounds suspiciously like you're working on the LHC!  Or perhaps the
VLA...


Particle Physics, although not LHC :-) Neutrino Physics.

Didier



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Re: [DNG] I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,

[Miroslav Rovis]

On 170711-23:18+0200, Svante Signell wrote:
> On Tue, 2017-07-11 at 17:26 +, Miroslav Rovis wrote:
...
> > Do I understand correctly that only these two packages it would be
> > useful that they remain posted there on my website temporarily:
> > 
> > -rw-r--r-- 1 210960 2017-07-11 03:30 libfdisk1_2.29.2-
> > 1+devuan1_amd64.deb
> > -rw-r--r-- 1 979112 2017-07-11 03:30 util-linux_2.29.2-
> > 1+devuan1_amd64.deb
> 
> Yes, they are useful until the build problems are solved.
> 
> > But then, can you, or Daniel Reurich (CC'ing him too), send me then
> > also i386 packages, so I can provide those in this interim before
> > none of it is needed any more.
> 
> Attached in a separate mail to you only. Especially since the mailing
> list attachment size is limited (as it should be)

Now it's sorted right, I hope:
OpenRC installation in Devuan Ascii
https://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?id=1128#p328

And I also edited:
( same topic )
https://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?id=1128#p3249
because it is linked from:
https://linuxmafia.com/faq/Debian/openrc-conversion.html
to avoid both any confusion for potential OpenRC Devuan users, and send them,
in this interim period that it is needed, to the download page, and point them
to where to (likely) look for news about OpenRC.

Regards!
-- 
Miroslav Rovis
Zagreb, Croatia
https://www.CroatiaFidelis.hr


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Re: [DNG] 404.

[Hendrik Boom]

On Wed, Jul 12, 2017 at 10:10:20AM +0100, G.W. Haywood wrote:
> Good morning,
> 
> On Tue, 11 Jul 2017, G.W. Haywood wrote:
> 
> >... back with more dumb questions presently.
> 
> For those just joining us, I'm attempting to follow the instructions at
> 
> https://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?id=549
> 
> My guess is that nobody has yet followed these instructions for a new
> project - at least nobody who was not already sufficiently familiar
> with the process not to need them - because there seem to be places in
> setting up a real project, as opposed to the null demonstration, where
> things need to be done and decisions need to be made which are not
> mentioned in the document.  I'm happy to be testing the document.  :)

I'm a complete novice in this matter.  The first thing I noticed was the 
line 
   debhelper and all the usual stuff needed to build Debian packages  
   (lintian, build-essential, cdbs, dh-make, fakeroot, and so on...)
with the phrase "and so on..."  As a coplete novice, I hae no idea what 
packages are included by this phrase.

-- hendrik
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Re: [DNG] 404.

[KatolaZ]

On Wed, Jul 12, 2017 at 11:16:10AM +0100, KatolaZ wrote:

[cut]

> 
> In other words: If you want to have your de-systemd-ised package in
> jessie, at this point you should build for
> jessie-proposed-updates. This means that you should get the latest
> available version in Jessie (in this case it might be 2.3.4-5+deb8u2)
> and prepare a "jessie-proposed-updates" branch.
>

BTW, there is already a project for openvpn under devuan-packages:

  https://git.devuan.org/devuan-packages/openvpn/

But it does not seem to have been worked on for jessie. You should get
in touch with the developer there and agree with them how to proceed,
to avoid duplicating work.

HND

KatolaZ

-- 
[ ~.,_  Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ - GLUGCT -- Freaknet Medialab  ]  
[ "+.  katolaz [at] freaknet.org --- katolaz [at] yahoo.it  ]
[   @)   http://kalos.mine.nu ---  Devuan GNU + Linux User  ]
[ @@)  http://maths.qmul.ac.uk/~vnicosia --  GPG: 0B5F062F  ] 
[ (@@@)  Twitter: @KatolaZ - skype: katolaz -- github: KatolaZ  ]


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Re: [DNG] 404.

[KatolaZ]

On Wed, Jul 12, 2017 at 10:10:20AM +0100, G.W. Haywood wrote:

[cut]

> My guess is that nobody has yet followed these instructions for a new
> project - at least nobody who was not already sufficiently familiar
> with the process not to need them - because there seem to be places in
> setting up a real project, as opposed to the null demonstration, where
> things need to be done and decisions need to be made which are not
> mentioned in the document.  I'm happy to be testing the document.  :)

Hi,

thanks for testing the document :)

> 
> Adding a public key to the personal profile at git.devuan.org has not
> been mentioned thus far; it is mentioned now to list things to add to
> the document.  The need to avoid being sidetracked from the document
> by clicking on any of the many dead links on the git.devuan.org pages
> should also be mentioned.  Hopefully when we've reached some sort of
> an artistic conclusion we'll have in this thread a list of the things
> I've learned that weren't documented. :)
>

yes, there are several things to be added. Hope you are keeping a list.

[cut]

> laptop3:/opt/ged/git/devuan/pkg_openvpn/openvpn$ >>> apt-cache policy openvpn
> openvpn:
>   Installed: (none)
>   Candidate: 2.3.4-5+deb8u2
>   Version table:
>  2.4.0-6+deb9u1~bpo8+1 0
> 100 http://auto.mirror.devuan.org/merged/ jessie-backports/main amd64 
> Packages
>  2.3.4-5+deb8u2 0
> 500 http://auto.mirror.devuan.org/merged/ jessie-security/main amd64 
> Packages
>  2.3.4-5+deb8u1 0
> 500 http://auto.mirror.devuan.org/merged/ jessie/main amd64 Packages
> 
> Assuming I want to put OpenVPN in Devuan jessie, how do I choose from
> the offered packages (i.e. "what are the decision making processes?",
> not "what is the answer?").  I'm guessing that my next step will be


The next step depends on which release you would like to build your
package for. Now, the norm would be to build for unstable, and have
the packages "percolate" down to testing and then
backports/updates. However, in Devuan this flow has been interrupted,
since we started working on Jessi which was already frozen.

In other words: If you want to have your de-systemd-ised package in
jessie, at this point you should build for
jessie-proposed-updates. This means that you should get the latest
available version in Jessie (in this case it might be 2.3.4-5+deb8u2)
and prepare a "jessie-proposed-updates" branch.

Hope this helps. Please shout if you need help, or come to
#devuan-dev, which is quicker.

HND

KatolaZ

-- 
[ ~.,_  Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ - GLUGCT -- Freaknet Medialab  ]  
[ "+.  katolaz [at] freaknet.org --- katolaz [at] yahoo.it  ]
[   @)   http://kalos.mine.nu ---  Devuan GNU + Linux User  ]
[ @@)  http://maths.qmul.ac.uk/~vnicosia --  GPG: 0B5F062F  ] 
[ (@@@)  Twitter: @KatolaZ - skype: katolaz -- github: KatolaZ  ]


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[DNG] --with-systemd

[Vincent Bentley]

If every upstream developer includes an option --with-systemd to make
their code work reliably with it, then all Debian package developers
will use the option without questioning if it is actually necessary.

Eventually, the switch packagers and developers will forget what was
actually being done by --with-systemd and it will become a default
configuration. The opposite option of --without-systemd may appear for
some of those applications where the developers can be bothered to cater
for non-systemd operating systems. Either way, systemd will infect as
many application packages as it can to make the process of removal later
too daunting or too time consuming a task to actually do.

-Vince-

On 12/07/17 06:18, Brad Campbell wrote:
> On 12/07/17 02:35, Dragan FOSS wrote:
>> On 07/11/2017 05:28 PM, Enrico Weigelt, metux IT consult wrote:
>>> make it crystal clear: fuck off the
>>> upstream.
>>
>> Do you want to say that devuan users do not need any upstream that
>> recommends systemd?
>> For example, Postgresql?
>> ***
>> With PostgreSQL 9.6 or newer, it is recommended to build with
>> --with-systemd and use the unit file shown in the documentation...
>> ***
>> https://wiki.postgresql.org/wiki/Systemd
> 
> I read that page but my interpretation is different to yours.
> 
> I read it as "If you want to run PG 9.6 or newer with systemd, use this
> option and the unit file we include. If you want to run an older version
> the recommended approach is to write a unit file using Type=forking and
> use pg_ctl for ExecStart and ExecStop."
> 
> There is absolutely nothing there that is mandating systemd in any way,
> shape or form. They've just included code to make it behave better with
> systemd if that is how you choose to build it.
> 
> Did I miss something or are you fearmongering?
> 
> Brad
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Re: [DNG] 404.

[Didier Kryn]

Le 12/07/2017 à 11:10, G.W. Haywood a écrit :

Good morning,

On Tue, 11 Jul 2017, G.W. Haywood wrote:


... back with more dumb questions presently.


For those just joining us, I'm attempting to follow the instructions at

https://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?id=549 


I had a brief look at the link and would suggest the following:

Just after you have installed d1h, remove from your 
/etc/apt/source.list the line

|deb http://packages.devuan.org/devuan/ experimental main|

Or you risk to have problems next time you do an apt-get upgrade

Didier
|||
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Re: [DNG] 404.

[G.W. Haywood]

Good morning,

On Tue, 11 Jul 2017, G.W. Haywood wrote:


... back with more dumb questions presently.


For those just joining us, I'm attempting to follow the instructions at

https://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?id=549

My guess is that nobody has yet followed these instructions for a new
project - at least nobody who was not already sufficiently familiar
with the process not to need them - because there seem to be places in
setting up a real project, as opposed to the null demonstration, where
things need to be done and decisions need to be made which are not
mentioned in the document.  I'm happy to be testing the document.  :)

Adding a public key to the personal profile at git.devuan.org has not
been mentioned thus far; it is mentioned now to list things to add to
the document.  The need to avoid being sidetracked from the document
by clicking on any of the many dead links on the git.devuan.org pages
should also be mentioned.  Hopefully when we've reached some sort of
an artistic conclusion we'll have in this thread a list of the things
I've learned that weren't documented. :)

laptop3:/opt/ged/git/devuan/pkg_openvpn/openvpn$ >>> d1h  prepare 
jessie-proposed
On branch master
Your branch is up-to-date with 'origin/master'.
nothing to commit, working directory clean
[suites/jessie-proposed 3b9f7d1] creating suite suites/jessie-proposed
 1 file changed, 2 insertions(+)
 create mode 100644 debian/gbp.conf
[=  suite "master" ready =]
Switched to branch 'master'
Your branch is up-to-date with 'origin/master'.
laptop3:/opt/ged/git/devuan/pkg_openvpn/openvpn$ >>> d1h switch jessie-proposed
On branch master
Your branch is up-to-date with 'origin/master'.
nothing to commit, working directory clean
[ switched to suite: jessie-proposed ]
laptop3:/opt/ged/git/devuan/pkg_openvpn/openvpn$ >>> apt-cache policy openvpn
openvpn:
  Installed: (none)
  Candidate: 2.3.4-5+deb8u2
  Version table:
 2.4.0-6+deb9u1~bpo8+1 0
100 http://auto.mirror.devuan.org/merged/ jessie-backports/main amd64 
Packages
 2.3.4-5+deb8u2 0
500 http://auto.mirror.devuan.org/merged/ jessie-security/main amd64 
Packages
 2.3.4-5+deb8u1 0
500 http://auto.mirror.devuan.org/merged/ jessie/main amd64 Packages

Assuming I want to put OpenVPN in Devuan jessie, how do I choose from
the offered packages (i.e. "what are the decision making processes?",
not "what is the answer?").  I'm guessing that my next step will be

$ git reset --hard tags/2.3.4-5+deb8u2

which happens to be the 'Candidate' but I don't really see why I
shouldn't use the version from jessie-backports.

--

73,
Ged.
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Re: [DNG] Linus can no longer trust "init"

[Didier Kryn]

Le 11/07/2017 à 20:35, Jamey Fletcher a écrit :

I no longer feel like I can
trust "init"
https://lkml.org/lkml/2017/7/6/577

This is getting scary - last time I remember something along these lines,
something called git seemed to be the end result.  And I think git has
taken over the world from emacs!


Sorry, maybe I haven't enough software/historical/english culture 
to not miss something, but I don't understand the relation between Git 
and Emacs. AFAIK Git is a replacement for Cvs/Svn, and it seems a 
majority of people agree it is a good replacement.


As I understand the mail of Linus Torvalds, he is aware that the 
init system may be pretty harmfull and he tries to do his best to reduce 
the scope of its possible nuisances.  He makes clear that it is 
SystemDisease which examplified how much init can be harmfull, but the 
approach of Torvalds remains general.


Similarly he noticed that Udev wasn't doing the right things and 
didn't want to, and he implemented firmware loading in the kernel and 
developped the devtmpfs to care of device files creation/deletion. If he 
someday finds that any critical part of init can be done in the kernel. 
He will do it, in the spirit of preserving versatility and freedom - I 
understand that those are his intentions.


Didier

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