Re: [DNG] How to use golang-1.7?

[Ozi Traveller]

I have it installed in windows at work.

These might be useful to you.

https://tecadmin.net/install-go-on-debian/

https://golang.org/dl/

ozi

On Fri, Aug 18, 2017 at 10:46 AM, Hendrik Boom 
wrote:

> I installed golang-1.7 and could not find golang's main executable "go".
> Did not know how to set the main envvironment variables "GOROOT" and
> "GOPATH".
>
> Uninstalled it, and installed golang, and that executable was readily
> found.   But that's version 1.3.3, which is likely quite obsolete
> considering how fast the go language aand libraries are being
> developed at the moment.
>
> Debian jessie doesn't seem to have a golang-1.7, so I'm guessing
> it's our package (or maybe a backport).  But "go" is the main
> executable for the go language go,  so I wonder how to go about using
> it.
>
> -- hendrik
>
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Re: [DNG] devuan ascii - how much of systemd is still in there?

[Adam Borowski]

On Thu, Aug 17, 2017 at 10:34:06PM +0100, Dave Turner wrote:
> On 17/08/17 21:13, Adam Borowski wrote:
> > On Thu, Aug 17, 2017 at 08:17:56PM +0100, Dave Turner wrote:
> > > Having a bottle of wine before I start the devuan-jessie install and the
> > > systemd purge...
> > > 
> > > (hey, I need a clear head for this right?!)
> > If you have apache and samba installed, I'd rather recommend adding
> > something stronger to the mix, and padding the wall.  Wheezy->jessie
> > upgrades of these two are a mess.
> > 
> > I thank all the deities that's beyond me.  Stretch->buster, here we come...
> 
> Forget stretch->buster, my laptop runs sid. Just do it! The 'stronger
> addition to the mix' is The Residents streamed from my NAS4Free server
> through my Sonos system into a pair of BBC LS5/8 studio monitors. Loud!

Well, stretch, and in the future buster, are for boring machines.



> Sadly the bottle of wine is now empty.

Aaaw!  That's a tragedy. :(

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[DNG] openbox-themes in ASCII?

[Michael Siegel]

In Debian Wheezy, there was a package called openbox-themes
(https://packages.debian.org/wheezy/openbox-themes), offering a pretty
nice collection of themes for the Openbox window manager, some of them
coming with matching GTK2 themes. Unfortunately, this package has been
dropped with the release of Debian Jessie.

As I'm an Openbox user, I would really like it if these themes could be
made available through the package repositories in Devuan again. I
already tried installing the package from Debian Wheezy on Devuan Jessie
a view months ago. That worked just fine. And as that package doesn't
have any dependencies except Openbox and (apart from the standard
package files) consists of nothing but theme files, forking should be
quick and easy for someone who knows how to create Debian packages.

(Those having déjà vu redaing this, see
https://git.devuan.org/devuan-editors/devuan-art/issues/10.)

Also, I thought it would be a good idea to find current official sources
and recent versions of all those themes. So, I drew up a table and
started to collect data that may be used for building an up-to-date and
expanded openbox-themes package for Devuan. That table currently
includes information on 131 themes, mostly those from the original
openbox-themes package plus the ones currently being shipped with
Openbox itself as well as a few worthy additons (e.g. themes linked on
Openbox' official website that had not been part of the Debian Wheezy
package and are not currently being shipped with Openbox).

I was actually planning to create the package myself and then put it up
for review. But I got stuck in the process of learning how to build
Debian packages. It's a lot more complex than I thought it was and I
can't find the time to deal with that at the moment. So, I'm looking for
someone to assist. I could prepare a tar ball containing the updated and
expanded themes collection, so whoever would do the packaging would not
have to worry about that part.


msi
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[DNG] another "debian" that should be "devuan"

[Hendrik Boom]

In aptitude, running interactively, when highlighting "New Packages" it gives 
the explanation

These packages have been added to Debian ...

Presumably it should say Devuan.

I'll leave it to others to decide whether this is worth changing...

But if it *is* worth changing, maybe there should be a mechanism 
whereby a Devuan-derivative can automatically replace Devuan with yet 
another name.

Maybe that mechanism should be propagated upstream to Debian.

-- hendrik
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Re: [DNG] OT: most processors are insecure (was Re: Nvidia Drivers)

[Rick Moen]

Quoting Alessandro Selli (alessandrose...@linux.com):

> >> "This is a NOMMU chip, implemented as Harvard architecture (separate
> >> Instruction and Data busses) with a 5 stage pipeline, with 16k cache (8k
> >> instruction, 8k data), supported by a memory controller interfacing with
> >> up to 256 megabytes of lpddr memory (in one low cost memory chip)."
> >> 
> >>   So, it's a 32-bit chip with no MMU, no FPU, 2-way SMP and 256 MiB
> >> maximum memory.  :-(  
> > 
> > When you say 'it', you refer to the SH2-compatible chip from 2015, which
> > was merely the -start- of the Hitachi SuperH-revival project.
> 
>   No, 2-way SMP support was added in 2016.  Looks like that was the last
> release.

But the text you quoted (above) described the 2015 SH2-compatible chip,
exactly as I said, not the 2016 one.  Thus my point.  You described only
the _start_ of the roadmap.  You said nothing (until now) about even the
2016 immediate successor.

> >  Why did you ignore the rest of the roadmap?
> 
>   Because it's just a roadmap.  I wrote about what is available now.

What is available now is not all that interesting.  The great thing is
that doing SH3 and SH4, the next steps, is _not_ from-scratch work,
because the former Hitachi implementation is fully documented -- and now
also patent-free.  This is outside my field, so I don't really know the
extent of the work needing doing, but I gather that leveraging Hitachi's
prior art reduces the workload quite a lot.

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Re: [DNG] devuan ascii - how much of systemd is still in there?

[Joel Roth]

Dave wrote:
> I deleted /lib/udev and all the sub-directories - I'm running eudev right?
> What could possibly go wrong? Still works, but whatever it is that sets the
> font size is now broken, the font is huge! I suppose 'something' now thinks
> the display is an old 640 x 380.

Please keep notes, your experiences could a useful guide to
other would-be, ah, strippers down ;-)
 
> DaveT
> 
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Re: [DNG] suggestion

[Olaf Meeuwissen]

Hi,

Kees Schoenmakers writes:

> When I installed Devuan first time on my (recently new) hardware, I
> was initially left with some vague information provided by 'lspci'.
> That hindered me by searching/selecting the right
> drivers and X configuration. I discovered the 'update_pciids' utility
> in /usr/sbin.
> After running that everything got more clear for me.
>
> "RUN the 'update_pciids' utility as part of the installation process
> on the target!"

Ditto for update-usbids, modulo most of what has been mentioned in the
rest of the thread up to this point.

Hope this helps,
--
Olaf Meeuwissen, LPIC-2FSF Associate Member since 2004-01-27
 GnuPG key: F84A2DD9/B3C0 2F47 EA19 64F4 9F13  F43E B8A4 A88A F84A 2DD9
 Support Free Softwarehttps://my.fsf.org/donate
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Re: [DNG] OT: most processors are insecure (was Re: Nvidia Drivers)

[Alessandro Selli]

On Thu, 17 Aug 2017 at 15:14:26 -0700
Rick Moen  wrote:

> Quoting Alessandro Selli (alessandrose...@linux.com):
>
>> Plus, it seems to target SoC and IoT devices rather than desktops:
>> 
>> http://j-core.org/roadmap.html  
>
> _Initially_, yes.  But not thereafter.
> 
>> "This is a NOMMU chip, implemented as Harvard architecture (separate
>> Instruction and Data busses) with a 5 stage pipeline, with 16k cache (8k
>> instruction, 8k data), supported by a memory controller interfacing with
>> up to 256 megabytes of lpddr memory (in one low cost memory chip)."
>> 
>>   So, it's a 32-bit chip with no MMU, no FPU, 2-way SMP and 256 MiB
>> maximum memory.  :-(  
> 
> When you say 'it', you refer to the SH2-compatible chip from 2015, which
> was merely the -start- of the Hitachi SuperH-revival project.

  No, 2-way SMP support was added in 2016.  Looks like that was the last
release.

>  Why did
> you ignore the rest of the roadmap?


  Because it's just a roadmap.  I wrote about what is available now.


Alessandro



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Re: [DNG] OT: most processors are insecure (was Re: Nvidia Drivers)

[Rick Moen]

Quoting Adam Borowski (kilob...@angband.pl):

[j-core:]

> Alas, they seem to be suspiciously quiet within the last year or so.

D. Jeff Dionne wrote on
http://lists.j-core.org/pipermail/j-core/2017-August/000645.html :

   We have not done a release in a while.  Not because we stopped,
   rather the opposite (customer deliverables).

My friend Rob Landley replied on 
http://lists.j-core.org/pipermail/j-core/2017-August/000646.html :

   We don't talk about it much here because we're keeping intentional
   distance between the projects, but it's no secret most of the engineers
   behind j-core work for https://se-instruments.com. (We're making sensor
   systems to allow renewable energy to displace fossil fuels in utility
   grids. At our last big conference the banner said "fault resolution to 3
   meters". Except in Japanese, because it was "Smart Energy Week" at
   "Tokyo Big Site".)

   For context why this is such an exciting area to be in right now, here's
   a Stanford professor named Tony Seba (no relation to us, never met him,
   he's just a business-side domain expert in this space) teaching a class
   in 2013, then giving a book talk last year, then having his book talk
   analyzed by a mutual fund in india earlier this year:

   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pe1ouTfo2sY
   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kxryv2XrnqM
   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gt_SHouAKKA#t=1m45s

   The j-core project is a separate fully open source entity, but there's
   some serious resource contention going on right now staffing-wise. Sorry
   about that.

Make of that what you will, but I tend to believe Rob.  He has a good
track record on deliverables.  (You might know Toybox, Rob & friends'
answer to BusyBox, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toybox .  Rob and Bruce
Perens used to work together on BusyBox, but had some sort of falling
out.  https://lwn.net/Articles/202120/   No offence whatsoever intended
to either of these good gentlemen.)


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Re: [DNG] OT: most processors are insecure (was Re: Nvidia Drivers)

[Rick Moen]

Quoting Alessandro Selli (alessandrose...@linux.com):

> Plus, it seems to target SoC and IoT devices rather than desktops:
> 
> http://j-core.org/roadmap.html

_Initially_, yes.  But not thereafter.

> "This is a NOMMU chip, implemented as Harvard architecture (separate
> Instruction and Data busses) with a 5 stage pipeline, with 16k cache (8k
> instruction, 8k data), supported by a memory controller interfacing with up
> to 256 megabytes of lpddr memory (in one low cost memory chip)."
> 
>   So, it's a 32-bit chip with no MMU, no FPU, 2-way SMP and 256 MiB maximum
> memory.  :-(

When you say 'it', you refer to the SH2-compatible chip from 2015, which
was merely the -start- of the Hitachi SuperH-revival project.  Why did
you ignore the rest of the roadmap?

By the time one gets to SH4-compatible (slated for next year, in the
roadmap), one has a very respectible 32-bit RISC CPU (with, of course,
MMU, FPU, etc.), and the next unit after that would (if this pans out)
be the first 64-bit ones.

  J64: 2019-ish, new 64-bit mode

  Instead of shmedia's Itanium-like approach, we plan a more x86-64
  approach for j4, with 32 bit compatibility mode running stock sh4 code
  (at least in userspace), and a mode bit that switches to 64 bit register
  size and reinterprets a small subset of the existing instructions and
  leaves the rest alone.

That is no longer a little bitty embedded SoC.

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Re: [DNG] OT: most processors are insecure (was Re: Nvidia Drivers)

[Alessandro Selli]

On Wed, 16 Aug 2017 at 23:11:32 +0200
Adam Borowski  wrote:

> On Wed, Aug 16, 2017 at 01:26:15PM -0700, Rick Moen wrote:
> > I'm watching the J-Core project, which has resurrected the Hitachi
> > SuperH SH3/SH4 architecture as the patents expire, and should have a
> > fully fleshed 64-bit RISC system out in a couple of years.  At that
> > point, you'll have reasonably modern, general-purpose computing with no
> > blackbox hardware/firmware/software subsystems whatsoever.
> > http://j-core.org/  
> 
> Alas, they seem to be suspiciously quiet within the last year or so.

   Plus, it seems to target SoC and IoT devices rather than desktops:

http://j-core.org/roadmap.html

"This is a NOMMU chip, implemented as Harvard architecture (separate
Instruction and Data busses) with a 5 stage pipeline, with 16k cache (8k
instruction, 8k data), supported by a memory controller interfacing with up
to 256 megabytes of lpddr memory (in one low cost memory chip)."

  So, it's a 32-bit chip with no MMU, no FPU, 2-way SMP and 256 MiB maximum
memory.  :-(


  Alessandro
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Re: [DNG] Which desktops are available in Devuan?

[Alessandro Selli]

On Thu, 17 Aug 2017 at 10:05:55 -0400
Hendrik Boom  wrote:

> On Thu, Aug 17, 2017 at 02:17:03AM -0400, Steve Litt wrote:
> 
> > Every time one uses the word "cgroups" he's subtly arguing for
> > systemd. Every time one uses the word "DE" he's subtly arguing for
> > complex, and usually bloated, GOSFUIs.  
> 
> Just wondering.  Does Android use cgroups in its attampt to keep apps 
> from interfering withone another? 

  I don't know what for, but it does look like it uses them:

adb shell mount | grep cgroup
none on /acct type cgroup (rw,relatime,cpuacct)
none on /dev/memcg type cgroup (rw,relatime,memory)
none on /dev/cpuctl type cgroup (rw,relatime,cpu)
none on /dev/bfqio type cgroup (rw,relatime,bfqio)


  This is on an Android 7.1.2.


Alessandro

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Re: [DNG] devuan ascii - how much of systemd is still in there?

[Dave Turner]

On 17/08/17 22:34, Dave Turner wrote:

On 17/08/17 21:13, Adam Borowski wrote:

On Thu, Aug 17, 2017 at 08:17:56PM +0100, Dave Turner wrote:

Thanks Joel, but I have my 'killing head' on. _ANYTHING_ on wheezy that
dares to mention systemd is gone. Still works.

Having a bottle of wine before I start the devuan-jessie install and 
the

systemd purge...

(hey, I need a clear head for this right?!)

If you have apache and samba installed, I'd rather recommend adding
something stronger to the mix, and padding the wall. Wheezy->jessie
upgrades of these two are a mess.

I thank all the deities that's beyond me.  Stretch->buster, here we 
come...



Meow!


231 packages installed in the most minimal of installations possible.

I have no need of apache, I will need samba client to be able to get 
at my NAS4Free media server.


Ascii with eudev is working, but now I need to make it do something 
useful...


grepping systemd turns up far too many files that mention systemd, 
some just doc files, but I want them gone.


Forget stretch->buster, my laptop runs sid. Just do it! The 'stronger 
addition to the mix' is The Residents streamed from my NAS4Free server 
through my Sonos system into a pair of BBC LS5/8 studio monitors. 
Loud! Sadly the bottle of wine is now empty.


DaveT


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I deleted /lib/udev and all the sub-directories - I'm running eudev 
right? What could possibly go wrong? Still works, but whatever it is 
that sets the font size is now broken, the font is huge! I suppose 
'something' now thinks the display is an old 640 x 380.


DaveT

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Re: [DNG] devuan ascii - how much of systemd is still in there?

[Dave Turner]

On 17/08/17 21:13, Adam Borowski wrote:

On Thu, Aug 17, 2017 at 08:17:56PM +0100, Dave Turner wrote:

Thanks Joel, but I have my 'killing head' on. _ANYTHING_ on wheezy that
dares to mention systemd is gone. Still works.

Having a bottle of wine before I start the devuan-jessie install and the
systemd purge...

(hey, I need a clear head for this right?!)

If you have apache and samba installed, I'd rather recommend adding
something stronger to the mix, and padding the wall.  Wheezy->jessie
upgrades of these two are a mess.

I thank all the deities that's beyond me.  Stretch->buster, here we come...


Meow!


231 packages installed in the most minimal of installations possible.

I have no need of apache, I will need samba client to be able to get at 
my NAS4Free media server.


Ascii with eudev is working, but now I need to make it do something 
useful...


grepping systemd turns up far too many files that mention systemd, some 
just doc files, but I want them gone.


Forget stretch->buster, my laptop runs sid. Just do it! The 'stronger 
addition to the mix' is The Residents streamed from my NAS4Free server 
through my Sonos system into a pair of BBC LS5/8 studio monitors. Loud! 
Sadly the bottle of wine is now empty.


DaveT


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Re: [DNG] devuan ascii - how much of systemd is still in there?

[Adam Borowski]

On Thu, Aug 17, 2017 at 08:17:56PM +0100, Dave Turner wrote:
> Thanks Joel, but I have my 'killing head' on. _ANYTHING_ on wheezy that
> dares to mention systemd is gone. Still works.
> 
> Having a bottle of wine before I start the devuan-jessie install and the
> systemd purge...
> 
> (hey, I need a clear head for this right?!)

If you have apache and samba installed, I'd rather recommend adding
something stronger to the mix, and padding the wall.  Wheezy->jessie
upgrades of these two are a mess.

I thank all the deities that's beyond me.  Stretch->buster, here we come...


Meow!
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Re: [DNG] d1h pre-requisites

[Hector Gonzalez]

The package is called gnupg, itis on jessie, and if I recall correctly, 
it should also be already part of your system.  You can find out with:  
dpkg -l | grep gnupg



On 08/17/2017 10:00 AM, Gary Olzeke wrote:
Trying to follow the d1h article at dev1galaxy.org 
 id=#549

it says it needs "gpg (for package signing)"
apt-get can't find the package on jessie   or experimental-main
'
that should mean that it isn't in debian either ??!!
'
I found this from google  - is it the same?
GnuPG  2.1.23 2017-08-09 6373k

TIA - garyz



--
Héctor González
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Re: [DNG] Which desktops are available in Devuan?

[Dave Turner]

On 17/08/17 09:16, Harald Arnesen wrote:

Rick Moen [2017-08-17 00:55]:


So, here's a point:  If you have a Linux system with Thunar (graphical
file manager) and the xfwm4 window manager, I'm betting that those _are_
99% of what you think of as 'XFCE4'.

Not quite.


I'm betting that you don't actually have a specific desire and need
(also) for xfdashboard, Xftasklets, Xfce4 Screenshooter, Xfce4
Dictionary, Xfburn, Ristretto, XFCE Terminal, Parole media player,
Midori Web browser, Eatmonkey download manager,
notification-daemon-xfce, the Xfce4 Volstatus system tray notification
icon, Xfce4 Power Manager, Gigolo GIO/GVfs front-end, a couple of dozen
Xfce4 panel plugins, and around a dozen Thunar plugins,  You might not
even be totally in love with the Xfce4 panel, _or_ even (gasp!) prefer a
different panel not normally bundled as part of the XFCE4 metapackage.

I use several of these.


_Or_ you might prefer, as many XFCE4 users do, the window manager named
'awesome' rather than xfwm4.

No, not me. Tried it, didn't like it much.


And if you started out with less than the entire marching band of those
things (which with artwork and bindings are the ensemble known as
'XFCE4') and at any point you decided you wanted any of them or all of
them, you can trivially add those with a single apt-get command.

So, why do you need to start with the whole marching band?  And,
moreover, install a 'task' metapackage whose presence requires
installation, at all times, of all of the constituent packages
thereafter.

If I install the whole of XFCE4, I only have to remember the names of a
couple of other packages to get the screen to look the way I want.


'A la carte' is not a swear word, you know.  But somehow, most of an
entire generation of Linux newcomers have been conned into thinking it
is.  My point is merely that I think this tunnel-vision is unfortunate.

You have several good points, and I may try some of your ideas, but it
all comes down to choice. I think the reason I prefer a simple,
ready-made desktop is that it's one of the least important things on my
computer. I have other things to fiddle with, so I want the user
interface to "just work" - and for me, XFCE4 does.


Xfce4 is OK, I use debian squeezy linux at work and use Xfce4 because it 
is friendly and useful and light; at home I am a luddite geek and keep 
things simple...


DaveT

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Re: [DNG] devuan ascii - how much of systemd is still in there?

[Dave Turner]

On 17/08/17 08:46, Joel Roth wrote:

Dave Turner wrote:

I have boot from a debian 6 squeeze CD, anything later refuses to boot the
iMac. (Fedora has failed since fedora 13, Tinycore linux boots, Slackware
boots) Then I do a dist-upgrade to wheezy, that takes it straight to 7.11
which has the beginnings of systemd in it.

I used aptitude to get rid of anything with systemd in the name, then I
deleted everything systemd from /lib/systemd and etc/systemd.

There are units for starting services in /lib/systemd, but
go unused unless you have systemd installed. At least one
proof-of-concept init system, a wrapper for runit, aims at
supporting the systemd service units.

https://github.com/the-eater/shinit

The config files in /etc/systemd are equally harmless.
Probably any app that would look in /etc/systemd will be
declared with a systemd dependency.


After a reboot
and purge I was down to 174 packages and a working but very minimal terminal
system. No sound no nothing, reminds me of playing Moonlander on a 300-baud
terminal into the mainframe all those years ago...

Then I did the devuan-jessie dist-upgrade. That pulled in systemd-udevd so I
repeated what I did with wheezy - got rid of all of it!  And broke it again!
The screen font stays enormous and the keyboard doesn't work so I can't
login.

I suppose eudev is the next step once I have re-installed squeeze and
wheezy!

DaveT

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Thanks Joel, but I have my 'killing head' on. _ANYTHING_ on wheezy that 
dares to mention systemd is gone. Still works.


Having a bottle of wine before I start the devuan-jessie install and the 
systemd purge...


(hey, I need a clear head for this right?!)

DaveT

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Re: [DNG] ..today's el Reg heads-up: "Red Hat banishes Btrfs from RHEL"

[Rick Moen]

Quoting Arnt Karlsen (a...@iaksess.no):

> ..today's el Reg heads-up: "Red Hat banishes Btrfs from RHEL, ZFS On
> Linux adds the proper crypto Google wants before considering Btfrs for
> Android" got me curious, so I looked into it. ;o)

https://www.theregister.co.uk/2017/08/16/red_hat_banishes_btrfs_from_rhel/

Reader comments say RH's replacement project Stratis Storage Project has
dependencies on D-BUS, which if true means 'Eh, no', from me.

> ..my preliminary conclusion is I'm staying with ext4 because it is
> maintained by Theodore T'so and because he has his own experience 
> with systemd which may have formed his scornful opinion of it. :o)

ext4 and XFS remain solid, likewise md RAID.  Snapshotting and
block-level checksumming (ZFS) are certainly nice if you can justify the
system complexity and RAM suck, not to mention building a local kernel
if your distro isn't a copyright scofflaw [**cough** Canonical **cough**].

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Re: [DNG] Updating PCI ID lists in installer (Was: suggestion)

[John Franklin]

> On Aug 17, 2017, at 11:16 AM, Simon Hobson  wrote:
> 
> John Franklin  wrote:
> 
>> Adding a network dependency on a package install is generally a bad idea.  
>> What happens if the machine doesn’t have external network access, as is 
>> often the case for corporate build servers or people installing Devuan from 
>> USB sticks where the wireless card isn’t supported by the base kernel?  
>> Should the package install fail or silently continue?
>> 
>> It would be better for the lspci program to emit a warning “PCI ID list is 
>> out of date, please run update_pciids to update.”  
> 
> Wouldn't the correct way to do it be to have the installer ask the user what 
> to do ? Ie, tell the user "your list may be out of date, do you want to 
> update it ?" with options like "yes, update it" (in which case, attempt to 
> get an update), "skip that" (in which case, carry on with the old list). Of 
> course, there's then the error recovery steps that need to be considered if 
> the update fails - eg "try again", "give up and move on", "go back to 
> previous step”.

The majority of packages don’t require any interaction.  The few I can think of 
off the top of my head are server daemons -- openldap, postfix and other MTAs, 
mysql -- that require admin passwords of their own and/or the configuration is 
non-trivial.  Other packages, like Drupal, may require a database or other 
external resource to be setup and the admin has the option of getting apt to 
manage the resource for the package, including removing it when the package is 
purged.  In each of these cases, there is a set of defaults to satisfy 
DEBIAN_FRONTEND=noninteractive.

In general, if you can avoid asking the user at install time, that is best.  
Encouraging package builders to query the user for every little thing would 
make installing a new system with hundreds of packages a tedious exercise.

In this case, the package includes a default /usr/share/misc/pci.ids file that 
(I assume) is current as of packaging.  This weakens the case for auto-updating 
at install time.  The package is rebuilt for each major release (jessie, ascii, 
etc.).  If it is not already, it should be updated with a new ids file for 
minor releases, too.

jf
-- 
John Franklin
frank...@tux.org
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[DNG] Devuan presentation at Chemnitzer Linux-Tage (Germany) 2018?

[Edward Bartolo]

Another advice is to avoid making analogies. Instead stick to plain
facts. An analogy may help but given the audience is receptive.
Remember, you will have a mixture of people with many of them
convinced users of systemd.
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Re: [DNG] Updating PCI ID lists in installer (Was: suggestion)

[Simon Hobson]

John Franklin  wrote:

> Adding a network dependency on a package install is generally a bad idea.  
> What happens if the machine doesn’t have external network access, as is often 
> the case for corporate build servers or people installing Devuan from USB 
> sticks where the wireless card isn’t supported by the base kernel?  Should 
> the package install fail or silently continue?
> 
> It would be better for the lspci program to emit a warning “PCI ID list is 
> out of date, please run update_pciids to update.”  

Wouldn't the correct way to do it be to have the installer ask the user what to 
do ? Ie, tell the user "your list may be out of date, do you want to update it 
?" with options like "yes, update it" (in which case, attempt to get an 
update), "skip that" (in which case, carry on with the old list). Of course, 
there's then the error recovery steps that need to be considered if the update 
fails - eg "try again", "give up and move on", "go back to previous step".

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[DNG] d1h pre-requisites

[Gary Olzeke]

Trying to follow the d1h article at dev1galaxy.org id=#549
it says it needs "gpg (for package signing)"
apt-get can't find the package on jessie   or experimental-main
'
that should mean that it isn't in debian either ??!!
'
I found this from google  - is it the same?
GnuPG  2.1.23 2017-08-09 6373k

TIA - garyz
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Re: [DNG] suggestion

[John Franklin]

> On Aug 17, 2017, at 3:31 AM, Kees Schoenmakers  wrote:
> 
> When I installed Devuan first time on my (recently new) hardware, I
> was initially left with some vague information provided by 'lspci'.
> That hindered me by searching/selecting the right
> drivers and X configuration. I discovered the 'update_pciids' utility
> in /usr/sbin.
> After running that everything got more clear for me.
> 
> "RUN the 'update_pciids' utility as part of the installation process
> on the target!”

Adding a network dependency on a package install is generally a bad idea.  What 
happens if the machine doesn’t have external network access, as is often the 
case for corporate build servers or people installing Devuan from USB sticks 
where the wireless card isn’t supported by the base kernel?  Should the package 
install fail or silently continue?

It would be better for the lspci program to emit a warning “PCI ID list is out 
of date, please run update_pciids to update.”  

Adding a cron job to the lspci package is also an option.

jf
-- 
John Franklin
frank...@tux.org



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[DNG] ..today's el Reg heads-up: "Red Hat banishes Btrfs from RHEL"

[Arnt Karlsen]

Hi,

..today's el Reg heads-up:
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2017/08/16/red_hat_banishes_btrfs_from_rhel/
"Red Hat banishes Btrfs from RHEL, ZFS On Linux adds the proper crypto
Google wants before considering Btfrs for Android" got me curious, so 
I looked into it. ;o)


..from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Btrfs and a bunch of wiki pages, 
it seems somebody at Red Hat are unhappy about btrfs recipes helping
people escape e.g. systemd "upgrades" using e.g. btrfs snapshot boot
tricks, AFAIUT.

..my preliminary conclusion is I'm staying with ext4 because it is
maintained by Theodore T'so and because he has his own experience 
with systemd which may have formed his scornful opinion of it. :o)

-- 
..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt Karlsen
...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry...
  Scenarios always come in sets of three: 
  best case, worst case, and just in case.
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[DNG] ..today's el Reg heads-up: "Red Hat banishes Btrfs from RHEL"

[Arnt Karlsen]

Hi,

..today's el Reg heads-up: "Red Hat banishes Btrfs from RHEL, ZFS On
Linux adds the proper crypto Google wants before considering Btfrs for
Android" got me curious, so I looked into it. ;o)

..from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Btrfs and a bunch of wiki pages, 
it seems somebody at Red Hat are unhappy about btrfs recipes helping
people escape e.g. systemd "upgrades" using e.g. btrfs snapshot boot
tricks, AFAIUT.

..my preliminary conclusion is I'm staying with ext4 because it is
maintained by Theodore T'so and because he has his own experience 
with systemd which may have formed his scornful opinion of it. :o)

-- 
..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt Karlsen
...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry...
  Scenarios always come in sets of three: 
  best case, worst case, and just in case.
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Re: [DNG] Which desktops are available in Devuan?

[Tomasz Torcz]

On Thu, Aug 17, 2017 at 10:05:55AM -0400, Hendrik Boom wrote:
> On Thu, Aug 17, 2017 at 02:17:03AM -0400, Steve Litt wrote:
> 
> > Every time one uses the word "cgroups" he's subtly arguing for
> > systemd. Every time one uses the word "DE" he's subtly arguing for
> > complex, and usually bloated, GOSFUIs.
> 
> Just wondering.  Does Android use cgroups in its attampt to keep apps 
> from interfering withone another? 

  Yes, it does.  At last it was few versions ago, see
https://www.slideshare.net/yoshijava1/usage-and-comparisons-of-control-group-in-android-aosp-marshmallow-and-before

-- 
Tomasz Torcz  ,,If you try to upissue this patchset I shall be 
seeking
xmpp: zdzich...@chrome.pl   an IP-routable hand grenade.'' -- Andrew Morton 
(LKML)

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Re: [DNG] Which desktops are available in Devuan?

[Arnt Gulbrandsen]

Android apps run in one process each, and anything in the background 
may be killed at any moment. If you are in the background and the 
foreground app needs memory, you just die. If the system invokes you, 
you do not get another process, you get another thread in your existing 
process.


Thus, ulimit is enough for Android.

Arnt
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Re: [DNG] Which desktops are available in Devuan?

[Hendrik Boom]

On Thu, Aug 17, 2017 at 02:17:03AM -0400, Steve Litt wrote:

> Every time one uses the word "cgroups" he's subtly arguing for
> systemd. Every time one uses the word "DE" he's subtly arguing for
> complex, and usually bloated, GOSFUIs.

Just wondering.  Does Android use cgroups in its attampt to keep apps 
from interfering withone another? 

-- hendrik
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Re: [DNG] suggestion

[Arnt Karlsen]

On Thu, 17 Aug 2017 09:31:10 +0200, Kees wrote in message 

Re: [DNG] Which desktops are available in Devuan?

[Rick Moen]

Quoting Rowland Penny (rpe...@samba.org):

> Probably because you don't want to see it, your tone seemed to say
> 'Butt out Steve'

That's indeed approximately what I said to my friend Steve, albeit quite
a bit more politely than you're paraphrasing it.  

But the point is that this is very much _not_ what you were claiming a
few minutes ago.  Your assertion I'd claimed my friend Steve has no
right to a point of view is so blatantly false that I'm left wondering
why you so averred.

> Don't bother replying any further, I wont reply again.

As you'll note, I feel free to disregard requests I see as
inappropriate.  I'm sure Steve, being a bright fellow, does too.

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Re: [DNG] Which desktops are available in Devuan?

[Rowland Penny]

On Thu, 17 Aug 2017 04:15:58 -0700
Rick Moen  wrote:

> Quoting Rowland Penny (rpe...@samba.org):
> 
> > Certainly:
> > 
> > [quote]
> > Steve, please stop helping. As you often do, you are just adding
> > noise. [/quote]
> 
> I remain unclear on how politely asking my friend to stop 'helping' in
> this case prevents him from ignoring my request, if he prefers to
> continue nonetheless.  Perhaps I've developed awesome mind-control
> powers without noticing?

Probably because you don't want to see it, your tone seemed to say
'Butt out Steve'

Don't bother replying any further, I wont reply again.

Rowland
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Re: [DNG] openssl/libssl1 in Debian has disabled TLS 1.0 & 1.1

[Arnt Gulbrandsen]

ael writes:

I am happy with that. Just as long as one can enable it when
*necessary*.


You have a compiler and building is easy.


What is unacceptable is for Devuan to take away the freedom to read
email or prevent communication with devices which cannot be updated.


Keep in mind that compiling with SSL2/SSL3/TLS1.0 support opens the door to 
downgrade attacks.


The process works like this: 1. Someone discovers an attack against, say, 
40-bit DES. The only way to remain safe against the attack is to stop using 
40-bit DES. 2. Some maintainers leave in support for 40-bit DES to it can 
be used "when necessary". 3. A MITM attacker persuades one end of a 
connection that the other end supports nothing better. 4. The connection 
now uses 40-bit DES, which the attacker decrypts.


You want support for the vulnerable protocol when YOU think it's necessary. 
But the code doesn't ask WHO thinks it's necessary, you or an attacker.


Arnt
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Re: [DNG] Which desktops are available in Devuan?

[Rick Moen]

Quoting Rowland Penny (rpe...@samba.org):

> Certainly:
> 
> [quote]
> Steve, please stop helping. As you often do, you are just adding noise.
> [/quote]

I remain unclear on how politely asking my friend to stop 'helping' in
this case prevents him from ignoring my request, if he prefers to
continue nonetheless.  Perhaps I've developed awesome mind-control
powers without noticing?

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Re: [DNG] Which desktops are available in Devuan?

[Rowland Penny]

On Thu, 17 Aug 2017 04:01:50 -0700
Rick Moen  wrote:

> Quoting Rowland Penny (rpe...@samba.org):
> 
> > Rick, Steve has just as much a right to a point of view as you do.
> > In fact, you both seem to be saying the same thing, just in
> > different ways.
> 
> I'm missing the part where I decreed to my friend Steve he has no
> right to butt into a conversation I've been having with someone else
> to annoyingly interfere and change the subject.  Can you point that
> part out?  ;->
> 

Certainly:

[quote]
Steve, please stop helping. As you often do, you are just adding noise.
[/quote]

Rowland
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Re: [DNG] Which desktops are available in Devuan?

[Rick Moen]

Quoting Rowland Penny (rpe...@samba.org):

> Rick, Steve has just as much a right to a point of view as you do. In
> fact, you both seem to be saying the same thing, just in different ways.

I'm missing the part where I decreed to my friend Steve he has no right
to butt into a conversation I've been having with someone else to
annoyingly interfere and change the subject.  Can you point that part
out?  ;->

> Can we agree that different people will look for different things in a
> DE (or whatever you want to call it), some will be happy with just
> logging into a console, others will want a simple GUI, whilst others
> will want an all singing, all dancing GUI.

In as much as this is part of what *I* just got through saying, I
certainly hope so.

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Re: [DNG] Which desktops are available in Devuan?

[Rowland Penny]

On Thu, 17 Aug 2017 03:32:31 -0700
Rick Moen  wrote:

> Quoting Steve Litt (sl...@troubleshooters.com):
> 
> > That wouldn't be true of me. Back when I was an Xfce user, I defined
> > Xfce as:
> > 
> > * Able to use multiple panels
> > * Able to config the panels via right click
> > * Kinda twitchy during config on Linux, but rock solid on OpenBSD
> 
> I note without particular objection, just a kind of familiar
> weariness, that you ignored my point and changed the subject.
> 
> > How would anyone separate those from Xfce?
> 
> Question is irrelevant to my point, that XFCE4 is an assemblage.
> You apparently want to change the subject, which I obviously cannot
> prevent, but you'll have to do it without my help.
> 
> > > And if you started out with less than the entire marching band of
> > > those things (which with artwork and bindings are the ensemble
> > > known as 'XFCE4') and at any point you decided you wanted any of
> > > them or all of them, you can trivially add those with a single
> > > apt-get command.
> > 
> > The preceding is what I've been trying to tell people for years.
> 
> Steve, please stop helping.  As you often do, you are just adding
> noise.
> 

Rick, Steve has just as much a right to a point of view as you do. In
fact, you both seem to be saying the same thing, just in different ways.

I agree that 'GOSFUI' is a waste of time, but then I call a spade a
spade, not an earth moving device ;-)

Can we agree that different people will look for different things in a
DE (or whatever you want to call it), some will be happy with just
logging into a console, others will want a simple GUI, whilst others
will want an all singing, all dancing GUI.

Devuan needs to be aware of this and offer a standard GUI (XFCE has
been chosen), but needs to offer a range of others wherever possible.

Rowland


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Re: [DNG] Which desktops are available in Devuan?

[Rick Moen]

Quoting Harald Arnesen (har...@skogtun.org):

> Rick Moen [2017-08-17 00:55]:
> 
> > So, here's a point:  If you have a Linux system with Thunar (graphical
> > file manager) and the xfwm4 window manager, I'm betting that those _are_
> > 99% of what you think of as 'XFCE4'.  
> 
> Not quite.

And yet, some slightly different subset is for many 'XFCE' users if not
for you.  And thus my point.

> If I install the whole of XFCE4, I only have to remember the names of a
> couple of other packages to get the screen to look the way I want.

I'm glad it makes you happy.  Obviously I have nothing against people
_wanting_ the whole kitchen sink.  My point merely was that people often
don't actually want that, but merely have been conditioned to think they
do.

> You have several good points, and I may try some of your ideas, but it
> all comes down to choice.

With which, I'm sure you'll realise, I am nowhere interfering.

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Re: [DNG] Which desktops are available in Devuan?

[Rick Moen]

Quoting Steve Litt (sl...@troubleshooters.com):

> That wouldn't be true of me. Back when I was an Xfce user, I defined
> Xfce as:
> 
> * Able to use multiple panels
> * Able to config the panels via right click
> * Kinda twitchy during config on Linux, but rock solid on OpenBSD

I note without particular objection, just a kind of familiar weariness,
that you ignored my point and changed the subject.

> How would anyone separate those from Xfce?

Question is irrelevant to my point, that XFCE4 is an assemblage.
You apparently want to change the subject, which I obviously cannot
prevent, but you'll have to do it without my help.

> > And if you started out with less than the entire marching band of
> > those things (which with artwork and bindings are the ensemble known
> > as 'XFCE4') and at any point you decided you wanted any of them or
> > all of them, you can trivially add those with a single apt-get
> > command.
> 
> The preceding is what I've been trying to tell people for years.

Steve, please stop helping.  As you often do, you are just adding noise.

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Re: [DNG] Which desktops are available in Devuan?

[Rick Moen]

Quoting Steve Litt (sl...@troubleshooters.com):

> Rick, look in the mirror: You caused this. Every time you use words like
> "Desktop Environment", "Desktop", and "DE" you make them sound special
> (and geez, I have to investigate whether I need one), when in reality
> they're all GOSFUIs. Some like their GOSFUIs pretty with cutsey little
> dragndrop, and some like them simple and quick: Just leave it at that.

Seriously, Steve, your cutesy (yet gratuitously obscure) coinage --
which I hope you'll eventually realise is falling flat and adopted by
nobody but yourself -- just adds noise and absolutely zero understanding
to any conversation where you've inserted it, every single time.

I've told you this before, but some people are really slow learners at
times.  But, anyway, I'm not going to encourage you in any way.

Desktop Environment has a specific meaning.  Your pretending that it
doesn't, or that it is somehow too confusing, is a mistake on your part,
but really not my problem.

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Re: [DNG] openssl/libssl1 in Debian has disabled TLS 1.0 & 1.1

[ael]

On Wed, Aug 16, 2017 at 01:27:33PM +0200, Alessandro Selli wrote:
> On Wed, 16 Aug 2017 at 13:24:36 +0200
> Alessandro Selli  wrote:
> 
> > On Wed, 16 Aug 2017 at 11:56:46 +0100
> > ael  wrote:
> > 
> > [...]
> > 
> > > Devuan needs to avoid importing this problem.  
> > 
> >   It also needs to avoid been labelled as an unsafe distro, one of the few¹
> > to still support unsecure protocols.  After all, TLS v. 2.0 is from 1995,
> > quite a long time ago.
> 
>   Sorry, that's SSL v 2.  TLS v. 1.2 is dated 2008.  Not very long tome ago.


> I'd favour disabling it by default, only to be enabled if esplicitly
> configured to do so.

I am happy with that. Just as long as one can enable it when
*necessary*.

What is unacceptable is for Devuan to take away the freedom to read
email or prevent communication with devices which cannot be updated.

It may be that the Debian maintainer will see sense, and correct the
mistake, but if not Devuan will need to provide a modified (perhaps
I mean an unmodified) package. Unfortunately that involves extra
work, although I think it is only a minor change. I haven't checked, but
if by an chance upstream provides their own dpkg, that would be the
obvious option.

ael

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Re: [DNG] Which desktops are available in Devuan?

[Erik Christiansen]

On 17.08.17 01:27, Eric wrote:
> I was able to install enlightenment desktop from
> 
> https://www.enlightenment.org
> 
> I followed along with the directions on their download page and also from
> the site:
> 
> https://www.tecmint.com/install-enlightenment-on-devuan-linux/
> 
> 
> It works with the latest stable builds.  If you need help or have any
> questions just ask.

Thank you Eric. I remember using enlightenment around a decade ago, on a
laptop, but don't recall whether it came up as fast as LXDE does. I'm
not sure that a desktop has many important qualities after that one. (At
least, I couldn't tell the difference between them if you hid the logo.
kexcept kfor KDE, kperhaps, kgiven knaming.)

Erik
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Re: [DNG] Which desktops are available in Devuan?

[Harald Arnesen]

Rick Moen [2017-08-17 00:55]:

> So, here's a point:  If you have a Linux system with Thunar (graphical
> file manager) and the xfwm4 window manager, I'm betting that those _are_
> 99% of what you think of as 'XFCE4'.  

Not quite.

> I'm betting that you don't actually have a specific desire and need
> (also) for xfdashboard, Xftasklets, Xfce4 Screenshooter, Xfce4
> Dictionary, Xfburn, Ristretto, XFCE Terminal, Parole media player,
> Midori Web browser, Eatmonkey download manager,
> notification-daemon-xfce, the Xfce4 Volstatus system tray notification
> icon, Xfce4 Power Manager, Gigolo GIO/GVfs front-end, a couple of dozen
> Xfce4 panel plugins, and around a dozen Thunar plugins,  You might not
> even be totally in love with the Xfce4 panel, _or_ even (gasp!) prefer a
> different panel not normally bundled as part of the XFCE4 metapackage.

I use several of these.

> _Or_ you might prefer, as many XFCE4 users do, the window manager named
> 'awesome' rather than xfwm4.

No, not me. Tried it, didn't like it much.

> And if you started out with less than the entire marching band of those
> things (which with artwork and bindings are the ensemble known as
> 'XFCE4') and at any point you decided you wanted any of them or all of
> them, you can trivially add those with a single apt-get command.
> 
> So, why do you need to start with the whole marching band?  And,
> moreover, install a 'task' metapackage whose presence requires
> installation, at all times, of all of the constituent packages
> thereafter.

If I install the whole of XFCE4, I only have to remember the names of a
couple of other packages to get the screen to look the way I want.

> 'A la carte' is not a swear word, you know.  But somehow, most of an
> entire generation of Linux newcomers have been conned into thinking it
> is.  My point is merely that I think this tunnel-vision is unfortunate.

You have several good points, and I may try some of your ideas, but it
all comes down to choice. I think the reason I prefer a simple,
ready-made desktop is that it's one of the least important things on my
computer. I have other things to fiddle with, so I want the user
interface to "just work" - and for me, XFCE4 does.
-- 
Hilsen Harald
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Re: [DNG] devuan ascii - how much of systemd is still in there?

[Joel Roth]

Dave Turner wrote:
> I have boot from a debian 6 squeeze CD, anything later refuses to boot the
> iMac. (Fedora has failed since fedora 13, Tinycore linux boots, Slackware
> boots) Then I do a dist-upgrade to wheezy, that takes it straight to 7.11
> which has the beginnings of systemd in it.
> 
> I used aptitude to get rid of anything with systemd in the name, then I
> deleted everything systemd from /lib/systemd and etc/systemd. 

There are units for starting services in /lib/systemd, but
go unused unless you have systemd installed. At least one
proof-of-concept init system, a wrapper for runit, aims at
supporting the systemd service units. 

https://github.com/the-eater/shinit

The config files in /etc/systemd are equally harmless.
Probably any app that would look in /etc/systemd will be
declared with a systemd dependency. 

> After a reboot
> and purge I was down to 174 packages and a working but very minimal terminal
> system. No sound no nothing, reminds me of playing Moonlander on a 300-baud
> terminal into the mainframe all those years ago...
> 
> Then I did the devuan-jessie dist-upgrade. That pulled in systemd-udevd so I
> repeated what I did with wheezy - got rid of all of it!  And broke it again!
> The screen font stays enormous and the keyboard doesn't work so I can't
> login.
> 
> I suppose eudev is the next step once I have re-installed squeeze and
> wheezy!
> 
> DaveT
> 
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-- 
Joel Roth
  

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[DNG] suggestion

[Kees Schoenmakers]

Hello,

When I installed Devuan first time on my (recently new) hardware, I
was initially left with some vague information provided by 'lspci'.
That hindered me by searching/selecting the right
drivers and X configuration. I discovered the 'update_pciids' utility
in /usr/sbin.
After running that everything got more clear for me.

"RUN the 'update_pciids' utility as part of the installation process
on the target!"

best regards

Kees

PS The system runs very stable and I am extremely satisfied by it. I
managed to replace the X server by one 'borrowed' from Kubuntu because
the original X-server (Devuan) could not give me  dual-head, where the
Kubuntu X-server does...
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Re: [DNG] Which desktops are available in Devuan?

[Steve Litt]

On Wed, 16 Aug 2017 15:55:30 -0700
Rick Moen  wrote:


> So, here's a point:  If you have a Linux system with Thunar (graphical
> file manager) and the xfwm4 window manager, I'm betting that those
> _are_ 99% of what you think of as 'XFCE4'.  

That wouldn't be true of me. Back when I was an Xfce user, I defined
Xfce as:

* Able to use multiple panels
* Able to config the panels via right click
* Kinda twitchy during config on Linux, but rock solid on OpenBSD

> 
> I'm betting that you don't actually have a specific desire and need

[snip]

> (also) for XFCE Terminal, 

You got that wrong. I *always* install both XFCE Terminal and LXDE
Terminal.

> Parole media player,

I use that from time to time, during the frequent events when my
erstwhile favorite media player starts acting stupid.

> Midori Web browser, 

Everybody uses Midori when the usual suspects fail, or when they want a
little lighter browser.

> Eatmonkey download manager,
> notification-daemon-xfce, the Xfce4 Volstatus system tray notification
> icon, Xfce4 Power Manager, 

How would anyone separate those from Xfce? I expect my Xfce (which I
never use anymore) to have a tray full of excellent tools including a
battery meter.

[snip]

> _Or_ you might prefer, as many XFCE4 users do, the window manager
> named 'awesome' rather than xfwm4.

About 1/2 of 1% of my friends use Awesome on a regular basis. It's a
committment few are willing to make.


> And if you started out with less than the entire marching band of
> those things (which with artwork and bindings are the ensemble known
> as 'XFCE4') and at any point you decided you wanted any of them or
> all of them, you can trivially add those with a single apt-get
> command.

The preceding is what I've been trying to tell people for years.

> 
> So, why do you need to start with the whole marching band?  And,
> moreover, install a 'task' metapackage whose presence requires
> installation, at all times, of all of the constituent packages
> thereafter.
> 
> 'A la carte' is not a swear word, you know.  But somehow, most of an
> entire generation of Linux newcomers have been conned into thinking it
> is.  My point is merely that I think this tunnel-vision is
> unfortunate.

I agree with you, but mostly thanks to the systemd debacle I'm an
experienced user and a committed DIY guy. I remember when I started in
Linux, I *never* could have remembered which packages put a battery in
your panel, or which panel worked with which GOSFUIs, so in my early
years I saw Gnome2 and later Xfce as a single-install way to give me a
user interface I liked.

It's just too bad people turned those package-deal GOSFUIs into a
religion.
 
SteveT

Steve Litt 
July 2017 featured book: Quit Joblessness: Start Your Own Business
http://www.troubleshooters.com/startbiz
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Re: [DNG] Which desktops are available in Devuan?

[Steve Litt]

On Wed, 16 Aug 2017 10:34:10 -0700
Rick Moen  wrote:

> Quoting Simon Hobson (li...@thehobsons.co.uk):
> 
> [snip much]
> 
> > And like it or not, for this very large group of people, the
> > "desktop" needs to be familiar enough (ie look and work like
> > Windows) for them to be able to carry on with their trial and error
> > prodding to get things done.   
> 
> The part you didn't address is where a DE is even helpful for this.
> It's not.

Rick, look in the mirror: You caused this. Every time you use words like
"Desktop Environment", "Desktop", and "DE" you make them sound special
(and geez, I have to investigate whether I need one), when in reality
they're all GOSFUIs. Some like their GOSFUIs pretty with cutsey little
dragndrop, and some like them simple and quick: Just leave it at that.

Every time one uses the word "cgroups" he's subtly arguing for
systemd. Every time one uses the word "DE" he's subtly arguing for
complex, and usually bloated, GOSFUIs.
 
SteveT

Steve Litt 
July 2017 featured book: Quit Joblessness: Start Your Own Business
http://www.troubleshooters.com/startbiz
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