Re: [DNG] Should I, or should I not, make a Devuan VimOutliner package?

[Erik Christiansen]

On 09.01.18 10:52, Steve Litt wrote:
> I'm thinking of making the Devuan VimOutliner package use double comma.
> I'd take the Debian package and replace all appropriate double
> backslashes with double commas. 

Steve,
If a foreign distro has forked your original, then in our distro it
seems entirely reasonable for you as originator to restore the original.
If the foreign fork failed to identify itself as such, then it is not
your problem or ours when substituting the original reclaims the
original name. It is up to the fork to find a way to differentiate
itself. If our community wants to keep both, then I propose that the
debian package be renamed vimoutliner-debfork or similar.

That would seem to keep the ducks in a row, without the distasteful
problem of a fork masquerading as the original. It would also avoid
future list traffic asking "Why is the devuan VimOutliner package
backslash-borked??"

Erik
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Re: [DNG] Should I, or should I not, make a Devuan VimOutliner package?

[Peter Vachuska]

As someone who uses VO everyday for everything from journals, to to-do
lists, to outlining, I prefer (or am used to) the double comma leaders.
I was not aware that Debian changed it to //. (I *would* like to point
out that ,, is not equally easy on every keyboard layout. I use Dvorak
where ,, is upper-left rather than lower-right, but it is still easier
to find than //.) I would appreciate a Devuan VimOutliner package. Thanks.

-peter

09.01.2018, 09:52, "Steve Litt" :
> Hi all,
>
> BACKSTORY...
>
> I'm the *originator* of VimOutliner, an outline processor that uses the
> Vim engine. VimOutliner's top priority was authoring speed. That
> priority drove most VimOutliner keyboard commands to begin with a
> double comma (,,), which is both extremely easy to hit from typing home
> position, and very unlikely to happen within written text. I published
> VimOutliner 0.13 June 1 2001.
>
> Several other people used it, liked it, and improved it far beyond my
> capabilities. Several Linux distros acquired VimOutliner packages.
> Unfortunately, the Debian VimOutliner package manager insisted on using
> double backslash (//) instead of double comma (,,) as the first two
> characters of commands. The double backslash is slower, and more
> important, it's a key that appears in different places on different
> keyboards. Use of the double backslash represents a degradation of
> VimOutliner's top priority: Authoring speed.
>
> I'm thinking of making the Devuan VimOutliner package use double comma.
> I'd take the Debian package and replace all appropriate double
> backslashes with double commas.
>
> Please understand, there is no SystemD dependency in the current Debian
> VimOutliner package. It doesn't in any way violate any Devuan policy.
> It simply uses the wrong string for the purposes of outlining.
>
> As mentioned, I'm the originator of VimOutliner, and as such I set the
> priorities, and the top priority has consistently been authoring speed.
> I can either modify the "standard" VimOutliner for my own use, or I can
> make a new, double comma equipped package for Devuan. Anyone have an
> opinion on this?
>
> SteveT
>
> Steve Litt
> December 2017 featured book: Thriving in Tough Times
> http://www.troubleshooters.com/thrive
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Re: [DNG] Should I, or should I not, make a Devuan VimOutliner package?

[Hendrik Boom]

On Tue, Jan 09, 2018 at 05:10:35PM +0100, Antony Stone wrote:
> On Tuesday 09 January 2018 at 16:52:35, Steve Litt wrote:
> 
> > Hi all,
> > 
> > BACKSTORY...
> > 
> > I'm the *originator* of VimOutliner, an outline processor that uses the
> > Vim engine. VimOutliner's top priority was authoring speed. That
> > priority drove most VimOutliner keyboard commands to begin with a
> > double comma (,,), which is both extremely easy to hit from typing home
> > position, and very unlikely to happen within written text. I published
> > VimOutliner 0.13 June 1 2001.
> > 
> > Several other people used it, liked it, and improved it far beyond my
> > capabilities. Several Linux distros acquired VimOutliner packages.
> > Unfortunately, the Debian VimOutliner package manager insisted on using
> > double backslash (//) instead of double comma (,,) as the first two
> > characters of commands. The double backslash is slower, and more
> > important, it's a key that appears in different places on different
> > keyboards. Use of the double backslash represents a degradation of
> > VimOutliner's top priority: Authoring speed.
> > 
> > I'm thinking of making the Devuan VimOutliner package use double comma.
> > I'd take the Debian package and replace all appropriate double
> > backslashes with double commas.
> > 
> > Please understand, there is no SystemD dependency in the current Debian
> > VimOutliner package. It doesn't in any way violate any Devuan policy.
> > It simply uses the wrong string for the purposes of outlining.
> > 
> > As mentioned, I'm the originator of VimOutliner, and as such I set the
> > priorities, and the top priority has consistently been authoring speed.
> > I can either modify the "standard" VimOutliner for my own use, or I can
> > make a new, double comma equipped package for Devuan. Anyone have an
> > opinion on this?
> 
> It sounds like you have good justification for the double-comma choice, and 
> of 
> course as originator you can release the application however you like 
> (although under an Open Source licence, so can anyone else modify it however 
> they like).
> 
> My suggestion, rather than modifying the Debian package and keeping the name 
> the same, thereby leading to potential confusion between Debian and Devuan 
> systems, would be to do the modification but adjust the package name (maybe 
> add 
> "comma"? or "Litt"?) so that both packages remain available in Devuan (and 
> there aren't unexpected consequences for Debian upgraders).

or vimoutliner-authentic?

-- hendrik
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Re: [DNG] repackaging tutorial

[Hendrik Boom]

On Tue, Jan 09, 2018 at 07:18:53PM +, KatolaZ wrote:
> On Tue, Jan 09, 2018 at 01:09:14PM -0500, Hendrik Boom wrote:
> 
> [cut]
> 
> > 
> > I'd prefer to work locally until I actually have some confidence that 
> > I'm doing something sensible.  Often it's only once I've started a 
> > project that I've learned enough to know the entire approach is wrong,
> > and there's a much simpler way of accomplishing my goal.
> > 
> > So.
> > 
> > At just which point in these instructions is the working account on 
> > git.devuan.org needed?
> > 
> 
> The only commands that need a working git.devuan.org account are:
> 
>  d1h link
>  d1h stage

And I could presumably delay the d1h link until just before the d1h stage?

At which point I have already been able to build and test the package.

-- hendrik
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Re: [DNG] repackaging tutorial

[KatolaZ]

On Tue, Jan 09, 2018 at 01:09:14PM -0500, Hendrik Boom wrote:

[cut]

> 
> I'd prefer to work locally until I actually have some confidence that 
> I'm doing something sensible.  Often it's only once I've started a 
> project that I've learned enough to know the entire approach is wrong,
> and there's a much simpler way of accomplishing my goal.
> 
> So.
> 
> At just which point in these instructions is the working account on 
> git.devuan.org needed?
> 

The only commands that need a working git.devuan.org account are:

 d1h link
 d1h stage

My2Cents

KatolaZ

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Re: [DNG] repackaging tutorial

[KatolaZ]

On Tue, Jan 09, 2018 at 01:40:03PM -0500, Chillfan wrote:
> This might help you for that: 
> https://talk.devuan.org/t/os-documentation-how-to-package-for-devuan/568/14
> 

That guide has been subsumed under d1h, merged with three other guides
available (one of them is a comment to that post by Centurion_Dan),
made consistent with the current Devuan package pipeline, and
condensed into just 5 d1h commands.

My2Cents

KatolaZ

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Re: [DNG] repackaging tutorial

[Chillfan]

This might help you for that: 
https://talk.devuan.org/t/os-documentation-how-to-package-for-devuan/568/14

It's an older post, but if you omit the "Using gitlab" part and clone a debian 
repository directly, it shows some of the basics of how to remove systemd and 
build the package locally. See also debhelper documentation for building 
packages (Debian has it somewhere). Note that quilt usage isn't covered there.

Sent with [ProtonMail](https://protonmail.com) Secure Email.

>  Original Message 
> Subject: Re: [DNG] repackaging tutorial
> Local Time: January 9, 2018 6:09 PM
> UTC Time: January 9, 2018 6:09 PM
> From: hend...@topoi.pooq.com
> To: dng@lists.dyne.org
>
> On Tue, Jan 09, 2018 at 02:14:13PM +, KatolaZ wrote:
>
>> On Tue, Jan 09, 2018 at 02:29:07PM +0100, Jaromil wrote:
>>
>>> On Tue, 09 Jan 2018, Hendrik Boom wrote:
>>>
 Are there instructions somewhere for taking apart a Debian package,
 making changes, and building a Devuan package?
>>>
>>> soon (matter of days) online there will be a manual for using our new
>>> devuan helper, the d1h written by Katolaz, as part of the "Devuan
>>> Developer's Manual" we are preparing.
>>> I'll post the link in this thread then.
>>
>> In the meanwhile, you can still use:
>> https://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?id=549
>
> I'd prefer to work locally until I actually have some confidence that
> I'm doing something sensible. Often it's only once I've started a
> project that I've learned enough to know the entire approach is wrong,
> and there's a much simpler way of accomplishing my goal.
>
> So.
>
> At just which point in these instructions is the working account on
> git.devuan.org needed?
>
> -- hendrik
> ---
>
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Re: [DNG] repackaging tutorial

[Hendrik Boom]

On Tue, Jan 09, 2018 at 02:14:13PM +, KatolaZ wrote:
> On Tue, Jan 09, 2018 at 02:29:07PM +0100, Jaromil wrote:
> > On Tue, 09 Jan 2018, Hendrik Boom wrote:
> > 
> > > Are there instructions somewhere for taking apart a Debian package,
> > > making changes, and building a Devuan package?
> > 
> > soon (matter of days) online there will be a manual for using our new
> > devuan helper, the d1h written by Katolaz, as part of the "Devuan
> > Developer's Manual" we are preparing.
> > 
> > I'll post the link in this thread then.
> > 
> 
> In the meanwhile, you can still use:
> 
>   https://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?id=549

I'd prefer to work locally until I actually have some confidence that 
I'm doing something sensible.  Often it's only once I've started a 
project that I've learned enough to know the entire approach is wrong,
and there's a much simpler way of accomplishing my goal.

So.

At just which point in these instructions is the working account on 
git.devuan.org needed?

-- hendrik
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Re: [DNG] Meltdown and linux kernel KPTI patch

[KatolaZ]

On Mon, Jan 08, 2018 at 08:57:10AM +, KatolaZ wrote:
> On Sun, Jan 07, 2018 at 09:03:16PM +0100, viverna wrote:
> > il devuanizzato KatolaZ  il 06-01-18 19:45:27 ha 
> > scritto:
> > > On Fri, Jan 05, 2018 at 09:52:48PM +0100, viverna wrote:
> > > > When the KPTI patch will be in ascii and jessie?
> > > The patched kernel is already in ascii, if you have ascii-security
> > > enabled, and comes directly from stretch.
> > Wonderful, thanks for the {f,w}ork.
> > I don't know but is it possible for Devuan jessie to apply KPTI patch?
> > 
> 
> I guess the patch will be available soon from Debian. Just keep an eye
> on:
> 
>   https://security-tracker.debian.org/tracker/CVE-2017-5754
> 

Just to confirm that a patched kernel for jessie is available in
jessie-security, as reported at the URL above.

HND

KatolaZ

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Re: [DNG] repackaging tutorial

[Hendrik Boom]

On Tue, Jan 09, 2018 at 02:29:07PM +0100, Jaromil wrote:
> On Tue, 09 Jan 2018, Hendrik Boom wrote:
> 
> > Are there instructions somewhere for taking apart a Debian package,
> > making changes, and building a Devuan package?
> 
> soon (matter of days) online there will be a manual for using our new
> devuan helper, the d1h written by Katolaz, as part of the "Devuan
> Developer's Manual" we are preparing.
> 
> I'll post the link in this thread then.
> 
> ciao!

I'm looking forward to it.

-- hendrik
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Re: [DNG] repackaging tutorial

[Svante Signell]

On Tue, 2018-01-09 at 14:29 +0100, Jaromil wrote:
> On Tue, 09 Jan 2018, Hendrik Boom wrote:
> 
> > Are there instructions somewhere for taking apart a Debian package,
> > making changes, and building a Devuan package?
> 
> soon (matter of days) online there will be a manual for using our new
> devuan helper, the d1h written by Katolaz, as part of the "Devuan
> Developer's Manual" we are preparing.
> 
> I'll post the link in this thread then.

I have some updates, mainly how to merge two git repositories, e.g. Debian and
Devuan and to Devuanize packages. That will have to wait until I'm back from the
AFK session though. (And have obtained access to write to web pages)

Thanks!
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Re: [DNG] repackaging tutorial

[Chillfan]

That's good news.

I find the Debian manuals are not very easy to understand, for one reason or 
another.

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>  Original Message 
> Subject: Re: [DNG] repackaging tutorial
> Local Time: January 9, 2018 1:28 PM
> UTC Time: January 9, 2018 1:28 PM
> From: jaro...@dyne.org
> To: dng@lists.dyne.org
>
> On Tue, 09 Jan 2018, Hendrik Boom wrote:
>
>> Are there instructions somewhere for taking apart a Debian package,
>> making changes, and building a Devuan package?
>
> soon (matter of days) online there will be a manual for using our new
> devuan helper, the d1h written by Katolaz, as part of the "Devuan
> Developer's Manual" we are preparing.
>
> I'll post the link in this thread then.
>
> ciao!
> ---
>
> Dng mailing list
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Re: [DNG] Should I, or should I not, make a Devuan VimOutliner package?

[Antony Stone]

On Tuesday 09 January 2018 at 16:52:35, Steve Litt wrote:

> Hi all,
> 
> BACKSTORY...
> 
> I'm the *originator* of VimOutliner, an outline processor that uses the
> Vim engine. VimOutliner's top priority was authoring speed. That
> priority drove most VimOutliner keyboard commands to begin with a
> double comma (,,), which is both extremely easy to hit from typing home
> position, and very unlikely to happen within written text. I published
> VimOutliner 0.13 June 1 2001.
> 
> Several other people used it, liked it, and improved it far beyond my
> capabilities. Several Linux distros acquired VimOutliner packages.
> Unfortunately, the Debian VimOutliner package manager insisted on using
> double backslash (//) instead of double comma (,,) as the first two
> characters of commands. The double backslash is slower, and more
> important, it's a key that appears in different places on different
> keyboards. Use of the double backslash represents a degradation of
> VimOutliner's top priority: Authoring speed.
> 
> I'm thinking of making the Devuan VimOutliner package use double comma.
> I'd take the Debian package and replace all appropriate double
> backslashes with double commas.
> 
> Please understand, there is no SystemD dependency in the current Debian
> VimOutliner package. It doesn't in any way violate any Devuan policy.
> It simply uses the wrong string for the purposes of outlining.
> 
> As mentioned, I'm the originator of VimOutliner, and as such I set the
> priorities, and the top priority has consistently been authoring speed.
> I can either modify the "standard" VimOutliner for my own use, or I can
> make a new, double comma equipped package for Devuan. Anyone have an
> opinion on this?

It sounds like you have good justification for the double-comma choice, and of 
course as originator you can release the application however you like 
(although under an Open Source licence, so can anyone else modify it however 
they like).

My suggestion, rather than modifying the Debian package and keeping the name 
the same, thereby leading to potential confusion between Debian and Devuan 
systems, would be to do the modification but adjust the package name (maybe add 
"comma"? or "Litt"?) so that both packages remain available in Devuan (and 
there aren't unexpected consequences for Debian upgraders).

Since a Devuan package is a Debian package anyway, you can also make this re-
packaged version available for private download for Debian users who prefer 
your command approach.

Anyway, my 2c (although €c, not $c),


Antony.

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[DNG] Should I, or should I not, make a Devuan VimOutliner package?

[Steve Litt]

Hi all,

BACKSTORY...

I'm the *originator* of VimOutliner, an outline processor that uses the
Vim engine. VimOutliner's top priority was authoring speed. That
priority drove most VimOutliner keyboard commands to begin with a
double comma (,,), which is both extremely easy to hit from typing home
position, and very unlikely to happen within written text. I published
VimOutliner 0.13 June 1 2001. 

Several other people used it, liked it, and improved it far beyond my
capabilities. Several Linux distros acquired VimOutliner packages.
Unfortunately, the Debian VimOutliner package manager insisted on using
double backslash (//) instead of double comma (,,) as the first two
characters of commands. The double backslash is slower, and more
important, it's a key that appears in different places on different
keyboards. Use of the double backslash represents a degradation of
VimOutliner's top priority: Authoring speed. 

I'm thinking of making the Devuan VimOutliner package use double comma.
I'd take the Debian package and replace all appropriate double
backslashes with double commas. 

Please understand, there is no SystemD dependency in the current Debian
VimOutliner package. It doesn't in any way violate any Devuan policy.
It simply uses the wrong string for the purposes of outlining.

As mentioned, I'm the originator of VimOutliner, and as such I set the
priorities, and the top priority has consistently been authoring speed.
I can either modify the "standard" VimOutliner for my own use, or I can
make a new, double comma equipped package for Devuan. Anyone have an
opinion on this?

SteveT

Steve Litt 
December 2017 featured book: Thriving in Tough Times
http://www.troubleshooters.com/thrive
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Re: [DNG] repackaging tutorial

[KatolaZ]

On Tue, Jan 09, 2018 at 09:26:07AM -0500, Steve Litt wrote:
> On Tue, 9 Jan 2018 14:29:07 +0100
> Jaromil  wrote:
> 
> > On Tue, 09 Jan 2018, Hendrik Boom wrote:
> > 
> > > Are there instructions somewhere for taking apart a Debian package,
> > > making changes, and building a Devuan package?  
> > 
> > soon (matter of days) online there will be a manual for using our new
> > devuan helper, the d1h written by Katolaz, 
> 
> In a sentence or two, what does d1h do?
> 

Implements the Devuan package workflow, with simple commands.

HTH

KatolaZ

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Re: [DNG] repackaging tutorial

[Steve Litt]

On Tue, 9 Jan 2018 09:26:07 -0500
Steve Litt  wrote:

> On Tue, 9 Jan 2018 14:29:07 +0100
> Jaromil  wrote:
> 
> > On Tue, 09 Jan 2018, Hendrik Boom wrote:
> >   
> > > Are there instructions somewhere for taking apart a Debian
> > > package, making changes, and building a Devuan package?
> > 
> > soon (matter of days) online there will be a manual for using our
> > new devuan helper, the d1h written by Katolaz,   
> 
> In a sentence or two, what does d1h do?

Nevamind, Katolaz' https://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?id=549
reference made it perfectly clear what d1h does.

Thanks!
 
SteveT

Steve Litt 
December 2017 featured book: Thriving in Tough Times
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Re: [DNG] repackaging tutorial

[Steve Litt]

On Tue, 9 Jan 2018 14:29:07 +0100
Jaromil  wrote:

> On Tue, 09 Jan 2018, Hendrik Boom wrote:
> 
> > Are there instructions somewhere for taking apart a Debian package,
> > making changes, and building a Devuan package?  
> 
> soon (matter of days) online there will be a manual for using our new
> devuan helper, the d1h written by Katolaz, 

In a sentence or two, what does d1h do?

SteveT

Steve Litt 
December 2017 featured book: Thriving in Tough Times
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Re: [DNG] repackaging tutorial

[KatolaZ]

On Tue, Jan 09, 2018 at 02:29:07PM +0100, Jaromil wrote:
> On Tue, 09 Jan 2018, Hendrik Boom wrote:
> 
> > Are there instructions somewhere for taking apart a Debian package,
> > making changes, and building a Devuan package?
> 
> soon (matter of days) online there will be a manual for using our new
> devuan helper, the d1h written by Katolaz, as part of the "Devuan
> Developer's Manual" we are preparing.
> 
> I'll post the link in this thread then.
> 

In the meanwhile, you can still use:

  https://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?id=549

My2Cents

KatolaZ

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Re: [DNG] repackaging tutorial

[Jaromil]

On Tue, 09 Jan 2018, Hendrik Boom wrote:

> Are there instructions somewhere for taking apart a Debian package,
> making changes, and building a Devuan package?

soon (matter of days) online there will be a manual for using our new
devuan helper, the d1h written by Katolaz, as part of the "Devuan
Developer's Manual" we are preparing.

I'll post the link in this thread then.

ciao!
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Re: [DNG] repackaging tutorial

[Dragan FOSS]

On 01/09/2018 01:43 PM, Hendrik Boom wrote:

Are there instructions somewhere for taking apart a Debian package, making 
changes,
and building a Devuan package?


apt install debian-handbook

Cheers and HNY to all :)
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Re: [DNG] repackaging tutorial

[Antony Stone]

On Tuesday 09 January 2018 at 13:43:58, Hendrik Boom wrote:

> Are there instructions somewhere for taking apart a Debian package, making
> changes, and building a Devuan package?

There's no difference.

A Devuan package is a Debian package.

Any tutorial / howto / documentation for fiddling about with Debian packages 
will tell you what you need.


Antony.

-- 
In science, one tries to tell people
in such a way as to be understood by everyone
something that no-one ever knew before.

In poetry, it is the exact opposite.

 - Paul Dirac

   Please reply to the list;
 please *don't* CC me.
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[DNG] repackaging tutorial

[Hendrik Boom]

Are there instructions somewhere for taking apart a Debian package, making 
changes, 
and building a Devuan package?

-- hendrik


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