Re: [DNG] Which desktops are available in Devuan?
Am 2018-06-21 02:40, schrieb Renaud (Ron) OLGIATI: On Mon, 28 Aug 2017 22:16:10 +0200 "J. Fahrner" wrote: Bunsenlab has also a GUI program for adjusting fonts for Gtk. Where can one find it ? It's lxappearance ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Which desktops are available in Devuan?
On Mon, 28 Aug 2017 22:16:10 +0200 "J. Fahrner" wrote: > Bunsenlab has also a GUI program for adjusting fonts for Gtk. Where can one find it ? Cheers, Ron. -- Gli nomini si debbano o vezzeggiate o peguere; perche' si vendiciano delle leggieri offese, delle gravi non possono. -- Niccolo Machiavelli -- http://www.olgiati-in-paraguay.org -- ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] When 128?
On Wed, 20 Jun 2018 15:16:28 -0400 Steve Litt wrote: > There was a discussion of whether to retain 32 bit, and that brought > up another question in my mind: When will we have 128 bit computing? Give off. Its taken 40 years for me to be finally able to buy a 64bit computer. I want to be able to at least enjoy 64bit for a decade. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Devuan ASCII 32bit images
Antony Stone [2018-06-20 17:36]: > No, I think Adam's point was that if you have a 686 kernel on a 386 machine, > replacing it for a 386 kernel is easy (relatively speaking), but if you have > the complete system binaries and libraries built for 686 on a 386 machine, > replacing that lot is basically a re-install. 80386 processors are no longer supported by the linux.org kernel ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Educating people (Was: One week into Devuan 2.0 ASCII -- Some stats)
On Wed, 20 Jun 2018 at 14:07:51 +0200 KatolaZ wrote: > And this is not at all elitism: it's just the humble admission that > what is "True" for me might not be "THE Truth" for everybody, and that > what is important, crucial, fundamental for me might be just bullshit > for the rest of the world. And the rest of the world might actually be > right... > > HND > > KatolaZ Where is the "Like" button? :-) Alessandro ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Educating people (Was: One week into Devuan 2.0 ASCII -- Some stats)
KatolaZ wrote: >>> Of course they are, it's all over the Internet. >> >> Being pedantic, that’s not the same - and you **should** know that. >> IMO there’s a choice to be made - do we (collectively) want to be inclusive >> and support all those who don’t know much about computing but want to try an >> alternative to Mac/Windows; or do we (collectively) want to stay elitist and >> show an attitude that “people should know these things” ? > > [cut] > > Unfortunately, there is no middle-ground here. We have been telling > people for years that running proprietary software is potentially > harmful for their privacy and security. The result is that 98% (and > maybe more) of all the CPUs on this planet run a proprietary operating > system with proprietary software. I think you missed the point. All I’m suggesting is that on the download page there are the AMD64 images first, then a note giving very basic suggestions not to use i[3-6]86 images unless you need to AND PROVIDE LINKS TO SOME GOOD WRITEUPS. It’s not trying to force people to do anything - just give them a pointer to information that (apparently) quite a few people aren’t aware of. There’s an analogy with a situation where I used to work. The authorities created a new one-way system that turned the road past our office into one of the main ways out of town. Most of us think it was a stupid move, and it certainly made getting out of the office car park a PITA at peak times - not to mention the hazard of trying to cross as a pedestrian. But even after several years, we still got people going the wrong way - quite frequently. A colleague made it his mission and kept petering the local highways department sending them lots of photos, even catching up with some of the drivers (seeing where they went and popping out to speak to them) and finding out the reason for their mistake. At first, the authorities just kept repeating that the signage was there - so it’s all the drivers’ fault for not seeing the signs. They were in the same state as some people on this “tell people or not tell them” discussion - the information is around to be seen, it’s not our responsibility to make any allowance for people not having seen it. The fundamental issue was that the signage was designed by people who knew about the one way system - and shared the same problem shared with direction signs designed by people who know the local area. At one junction, yes there’s a sign, but it not at the right height to be in the driver’s eyeline, and it’s not where they would be looking if their intention is to turn the wrong way - so it didn’t get seen Eventually the highways department relented - made some of the signs bigger and put some “NO ENTRY” painted signs on the road surfaces. Guess what - in spite of the previous signage supposedly being quite adequate, the incidence of people going the wrong way dropped from several per week (sometimes several in a day) to perhaps as little as one/month. Just to prove the point, someone knocked down the lamp post one sign was attached to, and the incidence of people going the wrong way went up again for the very long time (many months) before the lamp post was replaced and the sign re-instated. So people can keep complaining that others are missing information that’s “all there to be seen”, or add a one-liner along the lines of “BTW - had you missed this ?" ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] ASCII installation static IP problem
Steve Litt wrote: >> However surprising to any of you, this is my testimony. A statically >> configured interface present in /etc/network/interfaces was ignored >> **as installed by Devuan ASCII.iso**. Removing wicd fixed the >> problem. What other conclusion can reasonably be drawn but that wicd >> is the one doing the ignoring? > > That's gross, and should be fixed. Indeed. Would one approach be to for these tools (wicd, network manager, etc) to automagically detect entries in /etc/network/interfaces with a static assignment and not over-ride those interface settings ? ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] When 128?
On Wed, Jun 20, 2018 at 10:17:38PM +0200, Arnt Karlsen wrote: > On Wed, 20 Jun 2018 15:16:28 -0400, Steve wrote in message > <20180620151628.0e132...@mydesk.domain.cxm>: > > > There was a discussion of whether to retain 32 bit, and that brought > > up another question in my mind: When will we have 128 bit computing? > > ..2000?: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transmeta_Crusoe > 256bit?: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transmeta_Efficeon We're talking about word size / pointer size, not machine instructions. Transmetas merely could pack multiple instructions for parallel execution. Itanic had the same: three parallel instructions packed into a 128-bit piece, yet no one calls it a 64-bit architecture. x86 on the other hand has variable size of opcodes, 1 to 15 bytes. This, by the way, is the biggest flaw of x86 instruction set: the rules to split code into opcodes are extremely hairy, requiring all the decoding work to be done twice if you want a pipeline. Meow! -- ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀ There's an easy way to tell toy operating systems from real ones. ⣾⠁⢰⠒⠀⣿⡁ Just look at how their shipped fonts display U+1F52B, this makes ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ the intended audience obvious. It's also interesting to see OSes ⠈⠳⣄ go back and forth wrt their intended target. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Devuan ASCII 32bit images
On Wed, 20 Jun 2018 16:36:26 +0100, Antony wrote in message <201806201636.26513.antony.st...@devuan.open.source.it>: > On Wednesday 20 June 2018 at 16:27:19, Arnt Karlsen wrote: > > > On Wed, 20 Jun 2018 12:21:21 +0200, Adam wrote in message > > > > <20180620102121.flczbaznhl3mh...@angband.pl>: > > > On Wed, Jun 20, 2018 at 07:09:12AM +0200, aitor_czr wrote: > > > > El 20/06/18 a las 02:16, Ozi Traveller escribió: > > > > > Are the 32bit images 586 or 686? > > > > > > > > > > I think the Jessie images were 586. > > > > > > > > linux-4.9.x is built in 686 and 686-pae > > > > > > And more importantly, userland packages are built using 686 > > > instructions. Replacing or using an old kernel is trivial, > > > rebuilding the world is not. > > > > ..i386, i486 or i586 kernels can now chew i686 userland? > > I could believe it can build them from source. > > No, I think Adam's point was that if you have a 686 kernel on a 386 > machine, replacing it for a 386 kernel is easy (relatively speaking), > but if you have the complete system binaries and libraries built for > 686 on a 386 machine, replacing that lot is basically a re-install. ..true, and can easily be neccessary for people stuck with their old rig after their new rig dies deep in the jungle, at sea etc without easy access to replacement hardware. > > ..do we have "world rebuilder" software or scripts that can find > > "wrong arch userland", fetch its source package, "rebuild this > > part of the world" and install it, and optionally upload it to > > "a community upload mirror site"? Might help speed up things... > > I think if anyone runs into the problem that they've installed a 686 > binary or library onto a 386 machine, they'll have installed > hundreds, so the machine is unlikely to be able to claw its own way > out of the hole. ..true, the proper way would be put the claw-yer-way-outta-that-hole script on a rescue image with all arch kernels and debootstraps. > Better to try having a check in the installer to say "the > architecture you selected will not run on this hardware - do yoou > really want to continue?" (which you might do, for example, if you're > installing a system onto a disk which is going to go into another > machine...) ...or porting things to a new or an unsupported architecture. -- ..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt Karlsen ...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry... Scenarios always come in sets of three: best case, worst case, and just in case. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Devuan ASCII 32bit images
On 06/19/2018 05:16 PM, Ozi Traveller wrote: Hi Are the 32bit images 586 or 686? I think the Jessie images were 586. ozi I'm using i386 Jessie Devuan on my old ThinkPad A31, I call it my Tank, works swell in kind of a lazy way and I enjoy using it, but I'm a linux tester and have many computer and can't get stuck on just one. Cheers, -- Jimmy Johnson Devuan Jessie - TDE Trinity R14.0.4 - AMD A8-7600 - EXT4 at sda2 Registered Linux User #380263 ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] When 128?
On Wed, 20 Jun 2018 15:16:28 -0400, Steve wrote in message <20180620151628.0e132...@mydesk.domain.cxm>: > There was a discussion of whether to retain 32 bit, and that brought > up another question in my mind: When will we have 128 bit computing? > > > 1971: 4bit: Intel 4004 > 1974: 8bit: Intel 8080 > 1978: 16bit: Intel 8086 > 1985: 32bit: Intel 20386 > 2003: 64bit: AMD Opteron / Pentium 4 EO revision > > When are we going to have 128 bit microprocessors? ..2000?: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transmeta_Crusoe 256bit?: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transmeta_Efficeon ..the why not: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transmeta ..maybe when the industry has matured a little more? -- ..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt Karlsen ...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry... Scenarios always come in sets of three: best case, worst case, and just in case. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] When 128?
On Wed, Jun 20, 2018 at 03:16:28PM -0400, Steve Litt wrote: > There was a discussion of whether to retain 32 bit, and that brought up > another question in my mind: When will we have 128 bit computing? > > > 1971: 4bit: Intel 4004 > 1974: 8bit: Intel 8080 > 1978: 16bit: Intel 8086 > 1985: 32bit: Intel 20386 > 2003: 64bit: AMD Opteron / Pentium 4 EO revision > > When are we going to have 128 bit microprocessors? riscv128. There's only an emulator for it yet, and neither gcc nor Linux implemented support. It turns out gcc has maximum word width hard-coded in a lot of places, thus adding 128-bit there will be a lot of work. No one is insane enough to try to extend x86 this way. Interesting that your list includes only x86 and predecessors, which didn't win in any of the categories. For physical memory, 64TB is already not enough for everyone, and we had a bump to 5-level paging in the kernel recently. Someone raised the question when the next bump will happen, and IIRC 4-level was 12 years before. The old limit was 46 bit physical 48 bit virtual, new is 52 physical 57 virtual. For disk storage, there already are server farms with more than 2⁶⁴ bytes, but AFAIK no one put them into a single address space. Meow! -- ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀ There's an easy way to tell toy operating systems from real ones. ⣾⠁⢰⠒⠀⣿⡁ Just look at how their shipped fonts display U+1F52B, this makes ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ the intended audience obvious. It's also interesting to see OSes ⠈⠳⣄ go back and forth wrt their intended target. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] When 128?
There was a discussion of whether to retain 32 bit, and that brought up another question in my mind: When will we have 128 bit computing? 1971: 4bit: Intel 4004 1974: 8bit: Intel 8080 1978: 16bit: Intel 8086 1985: 32bit: Intel 20386 2003: 64bit: AMD Opteron / Pentium 4 EO revision When are we going to have 128 bit microprocessors? SteveT Steve Litt June 2018 featured book: Twenty Eight Tales of Troubleshooting http://www.troubleshooters.com/28 ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Educating people (Was: One week into Devuan 2.0 ASCII -- Some stats)
Quoting Erik Christiansen (dva...@internode.on.net): > On 20.06.18 12:04, Simon Hobson wrote: > > FWIW, even technical users can lack what some may think is “really > > basic knowledge” - I fell that the most important thing I’ve learned > > over the years is just how much I don’t know ! > > Despite using *nix exclusively for three decades now, linux for around > two, matching a linux distro to my cpu requires more chip knowledge than > I have. I remember grubbing about on the net to try to find out what > sort of beast my: > > $ cat /proc/cpuinfo > processor : 0 > vendor_id : CentaurHauls > cpu family : 6 > model : 13 > model name : VIA C7 Processor 1500MHz > ... > clflush size: 64 > cache_alignment : 64 > address sizes : 36 bits physical, 32 bits virtual > > might be. The last line suggested that I needed i386, but line three > hinted vaguely at i686, maybe. The internet was no help when I looked, > some years ago. Taking a stab in the dark, I found that 686-pae runs > fine on it, but how would one know in advance? That's an i386 clone with some 686 features such as PAE. Obviously, this is pretty obscure data, so you would _not_ know in advance. (The VIA C7 'Esther' core was manufactured for C7 by Centaur Technology, thus the vendor_id string.) How to make an optimal kernel for one: https://blog.laczik.org/centos-6-5-kernel-compile-for-via-c7-cpu/ > The devuan ascii I run on my quad-core celeron host is also i686, as I > figure it's new, and 686 has to be better than anything with lower > numbers, right? Possibly you are fully aware of this, but: Code compiled for generic i386 will run on any i386-family processor whatsoever, but sacrificing some performance and other advantages possible if you use a kernel better tuned to the _specific_ i386-family CPU. Complicating this picture, more and more distros that still ship an i386 flavor have been making the judgement call to use an i686-optimised (Pentium Pro-optimised) kernel for installation and default operation, which then prevents installation on literal 386, 486, Pentium, Pentium-MMX, etc. pre-686 microarchitectures.. Fairly lucid clarification: https://www.redhat.com/archives/rhl-list/2006-October/msg03684.html ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Devuan ASCII 32bit images
On Wednesday 20 June 2018 at 16:27:19, Arnt Karlsen wrote: > On Wed, 20 Jun 2018 12:21:21 +0200, Adam wrote in message > > <20180620102121.flczbaznhl3mh...@angband.pl>: > > On Wed, Jun 20, 2018 at 07:09:12AM +0200, aitor_czr wrote: > > > El 20/06/18 a las 02:16, Ozi Traveller escribió: > > > > Are the 32bit images 586 or 686? > > > > > > > > I think the Jessie images were 586. > > > > > > linux-4.9.x is built in 686 and 686-pae > > > > And more importantly, userland packages are built using 686 > > instructions. Replacing or using an old kernel is trivial, rebuilding > > the world is not. > > ..i386, i486 or i586 kernels can now chew i686 userland? > I could believe it can build them from source. No, I think Adam's point was that if you have a 686 kernel on a 386 machine, replacing it for a 386 kernel is easy (relatively speaking), but if you have the complete system binaries and libraries built for 686 on a 386 machine, replacing that lot is basically a re-install. > ..do we have "world rebuilder" software or scripts that can find > "wrong arch userland", fetch its source package, "rebuild this > part of the world" and install it, and optionally upload it to > "a community upload mirror site"? Might help speed up things... I think if anyone runs into the problem that they've installed a 686 binary or library onto a 386 machine, they'll have installed hundreds, so the machine is unlikely to be able to claw its own way out of the hole. Better to try having a check in the installer to say "the architecture you selected will not run on this hardware - do yoou really want to continue?" (which you might do, for example, if you're installing a system onto a disk which is going to go into another machine...) Antony. -- She did not swoon, but she did get a look on her face that said 'This conversation is over', which Jack took as a sign he was going in the right direction. - Neal Stephenson, Quicksilver Please reply to the list; please *don't* CC me. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Devuan ASCII 32bit images
On Wed, 20 Jun 2018 12:21:21 +0200, Adam wrote in message <20180620102121.flczbaznhl3mh...@angband.pl>: > On Wed, Jun 20, 2018 at 07:09:12AM +0200, aitor_czr wrote: > > El 20/06/18 a las 02:16, Ozi Traveller escribió: > > > Are the 32bit images 586 or 686? > > > > > > I think the Jessie images were 586. > > > > linux-4.9.x is built in 686 and 686-pae > > And more importantly, userland packages are built using 686 > instructions. Replacing or using an old kernel is trivial, rebuilding > the world is not. ..i386, i486 or i586 kernels can now chew i686 userland? I could believe it can build them from source. ..do we have "world rebuilder" software or scripts that can find "wrong arch userland", fetch its source package, "rebuild this part of the world" and install it, and optionally upload it to "a community upload mirror site"? Might help speed up things... -- ..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt Karlsen ...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry... Scenarios always come in sets of three: best case, worst case, and just in case. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] One week into Devuan 2.0 ASCII -- Some stats
On Tue, 19 Jun 2018 23:15:21 -0400, Hendrik wrote in message <20180620031521.ga15...@topoi.pooq.com>: > On Mon, Jun 18, 2018 at 02:06:12PM -0400, Clarke Sideroad wrote: > > > > As a Linux user for over two decades I don't think twice about > > adding the applications I want and dumping the ones I don't, > > As a Linux user for over two decades I feel the same way, with one > proviso: > > Provided I have a clue what the package does. > > With soe of the obscure package names I see nowadays, that's not > necessarily true. It might be a package essential for the proper > functionoing of apt. With network-related packages, that's quite > possible. Life can be ough when you're cut off from the package > repository. ..ooo, indeed, the very reason you should have your own mirror of it, and why we have easy recipes to set them up. :o) -- ..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt Karlsen ...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry... Scenarios always come in sets of three: best case, worst case, and just in case. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Educating people (Was: One week into Devuan 2.0 ASCII -- Some stats)
On Wed, Jun 20, 2018 at 07:08:36AM -0500, Nate Bargmann wrote:
> At one time there were comments that not all packages were available on
> amd64. Even today that can be true, especially for some third party
> stuff. To wit, a prominent manufacturer of amateur radio equipment
> offers utilities for its hardware for Linux in addition to the other
> two, but the Linux version is 32 bit only and is dynamically linked to
> 32 bit libraries. Requests for amd64/x86_64 versions have been ignored
> as have requests for armhf.
Yeah, but there's many more packages that haven't been ported to 32-bit:
chdist create stretch-amd64
chdist create stretch-i386
$EDITOR ~/.chdist/stretch-{amd64,i386}/etc/apt/sources.list
chdist update stretch-amd64
chdist update stretch-i386
chdist compare-bin-packages stretch-amd64 stretch-i386|grep ' UNAVAIL .'|wc -l
139
chdist compare-bin-packages stretch-amd64 stretch-i386|grep ' UNAVAIL $'|wc -l
383
Alas, there's plenty of packages producing some compat binaries on one of
the archs. Thus, let's see what sources produce at least one binary,
something that chdist can't provide without some extra code:
grep-dctrl . -nsSource:Package
~/.chdist/stretch-amd64/var/lib/apt/lists/*_Packages|
cut -d' ' -f1|sort|uniq >amd64
grep-dctrl . -nsSource:Package
~/.chdist/stretch-i386/var/lib/apt/lists/*_Packages|
cut -d' ' -f1|sort|uniq >i386
diff -u9 amd64 i386 |grep ^+|wc -l
23
diff -u9 amd64 i386 |grep ^-|wc -l
86
i386 only:
atitvout dgen digitools fdflush fenix-plugins gatos gmod
google-android-build-tools-installer longrun lphdisk mig nyquist
pcsx2 pforth pixbros s3switch smlsharp spellcast steamcmd
xserver-xorg-video-geode yforth zsnes
amd64 only:
accelio afio agrep ariba bcal bcftools blasr blimps bwa caffe-contrib
caja-dropbox cen64 cen64-qt cluster3 crac cufflinks darktable drdsl
embassy-phylip eztrace-contrib falcon fdkaac fermi-lite fitgcp fsm-lite
gasic genesisplusgx giira gmap hisat2 hwloc-contrib iausofa-c iva
jellyfish kissplice kpatch libisal libretro-snes9x libsdsl libssw
libvcflib metis-edf mgltools-cmolkit mokutil mrs mssstest nastran nttcp
obs-studio ocaml-fdkaac openstack-debian-images openzwave-controlpanel
parafly pbbam pbbarcode pbdagcon pgcharts powder prctl princeprocessor
r-cran-rjsonio rapmap rna-star rocksdb rsem salmon sga shim sift
snap-aligner snaphu soapdenovo soapdenovo2 spades srst2 starpu-contrib
swarm-cluster tegrarcm tinyows tome tophat uftrace varscan vsearch xsnow
Meow!
--
⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀ There's an easy way to tell toy operating systems from real ones.
⣾⠁⢰⠒⠀⣿⡁ Just look at how their shipped fonts display U+1F52B, this makes
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ the intended audience obvious. It's also interesting to see OSes
⠈⠳⣄ go back and forth wrt their intended target.
___
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Re: [DNG] Educating people (Was: One week into Devuan 2.0 ASCII -- Some stats)
On 20.06.18 14:07, KatolaZ wrote: > I will continue telling people what I think they should know, but the > only way out of ignorance is knowledge, awareness, and individual > action. You can't force people to get interested, to learn, to become > responsible, to understand, to agree with you, to embrace your > personal ideal of freedom. And supporting high maintenance unmotivated users would be unachievable. If curiosity and motivation are missing, it's a lost cause. But diversity is good, I think. What would be unbearable would be if everyone had to suffer M$ or systemd chains. > You can just "Act as if the maxims of your action were to become > through your will a universal law of nature". > > And this is not at all elitism: it's just the humble admission that > what is "True" for me might not be "THE Truth" for everybody, and that > what is important, crucial, fundamental for me might be just bullshit > for the rest of the world. And the rest of the world might actually be > right... Well, they are right in that linux is not the turnkey deliverable which so many need. Driverless cars and driverless OSs are the current drip-dry fashion. But who wants to be in the majority, the crowds are too big. Many thanks for the inspired work. Erik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Educating people (Was: One week into Devuan 2.0 ASCII -- Some stats)
At one time there were comments that not all packages were available on amd64. Even today that can be true, especially for some third party stuff. To wit, a prominent manufacturer of amateur radio equipment offers utilities for its hardware for Linux in addition to the other two, but the Linux version is 32 bit only and is dynamically linked to 32 bit libraries. Requests for amd64/x86_64 versions have been ignored as have requests for armhf. A recent email thread blamed "Linux" for making this so hard because multi-arch must be enabled. I noted that if the manufacturer would also provide 64 bit versions of their utilities that this pain would be avoided. Curiously, there was no reply to that fact. It should have been noted that choosing a distribution with multi-arch enabled out of the box, such as Ubuntu, would make installation no more painful than on Windows 64. To date the manufacturer's Web site states that 32 bit compatibility libraries are required. Some users may make the choice to simply install a 32 bit distribution as a result. My suggestion, and solution, is to spin up a 32 bit VM to run the utilities for the odd time that I need them. - Nate -- "The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all possible worlds. The pessimist fears this is true." Web: http://www.n0nb.us GPG key: D55A8819 GitHub: N0NB signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Educating people (Was: One week into Devuan 2.0 ASCII -- Some stats)
On Wed, Jun 20, 2018 at 12:04:32PM +0100, Simon Hobson wrote: > Alessandro Selli wrote: > > > >> The problem is that people are not told why they should away from i386, and > > > > Of course they are, it's all over the Internet. > > Being pedantic, that’s not the same - and you **should** know that. > IMO there’s a choice to be made - do we (collectively) want to be inclusive > and support all those who don’t know much about computing but want to try an > alternative to Mac/Windows; or do we (collectively) want to stay elitist and > show an attitude that “people should know these things” ? [cut] Unfortunately, there is no middle-ground here. We have been telling people for years that running proprietary software is potentially harmful for their privacy and security. The result is that 98% (and maybe more) of all the CPUs on this planet run a proprietary operating system with proprietary software. We have been telling people for years that they should sign all their emails and encrypt important data. The result is that strong encryption is used by an ever smaller fraction of users than 10 years ago. We have been telling people that they should use only open formats to store their data. The result is that closed formats and restrictive protocols have become standards accepted by the W3C. We have been telling people for years that online social platforms are used to massively spy on their users. The result is that today those platforms represent 50%-60% of the overall Internet traffic. We have been telling people that systemd is a fatal risk for the entire Linux ecosystem. The result is that systemd has become default in 90% (and maybe more) of Linux distributions. I will continue telling people what I think they should know, but the only way out of ignorance is knowledge, awareness, and individual action. You can't force people to get interested, to learn, to become responsible, to understand, to agree with you, to embrace your personal ideal of freedom. You can just "Act as if the maxims of your action were to become through your will a universal law of nature". And this is not at all elitism: it's just the humble admission that what is "True" for me might not be "THE Truth" for everybody, and that what is important, crucial, fundamental for me might be just bullshit for the rest of the world. And the rest of the world might actually be right... HND KatolaZ -- [ ~.,_ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ - Devuan -- Freaknet Medialab ] [ "+. katolaz [at] freaknet.org --- katolaz [at] yahoo.it ] [ @) http://kalos.mine.nu --- Devuan GNU + Linux User ] [ @@) http://maths.qmul.ac.uk/~vnicosia -- GPG: 0B5F062F ] [ (@@@) Twitter: @KatolaZ - skype: katolaz -- github: KatolaZ ] signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Educating people (Was: One week into Devuan 2.0 ASCII -- Some stats)
On 20.06.18 12:04, Simon Hobson wrote: > FWIW, even technical users can lack what some may think is “really > basic knowledge” - I fell that the most important thing I’ve learned > over the years is just how much I don’t know ! Despite using *nix exclusively for three decades now, linux for around two, matching a linux distro to my cpu requires more chip knowledge than I have. I remember grubbing about on the net to try to find out what sort of beast my: $ cat /proc/cpuinfo processor : 0 vendor_id : CentaurHauls cpu family : 6 model : 13 model name : VIA C7 Processor 1500MHz ... clflush size: 64 cache_alignment : 64 address sizes : 36 bits physical, 32 bits virtual might be. The last line suggested that I needed i386, but line three hinted vaguely at i686, maybe. The internet was no help when I looked, some years ago. Taking a stab in the dark, I found that 686-pae runs fine on it, but how would one know in advance? The devuan ascii I run on my quad-core celeron host is also i686, as I figure it's new, and 686 has to be better than anything with lower numbers, right? Things were much more defined in my days of sysadminning a whole department's sparc servers and desktops. Erik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Educating people (Was: One week into Devuan 2.0 ASCII -- Some stats)
Alessandro Selli wrote: > >> The problem is that people are not told why they should away from i386, and > > Of course they are, it's all over the Internet. Being pedantic, that’s not the same - and you **should** know that. IMO there’s a choice to be made - do we (collectively) want to be inclusive and support all those who don’t know much about computing but want to try an alternative to Mac/Windows; or do we (collectively) want to stay elitist and show an attitude that “people should know these things” ? When you make that statement that a possibly newbie user should know such technical details because “it’s all over the internet" then you are falling into the elitist trap of assuming that those with less knowledge than yourself *should* have that knowledge - and more importantly *should* know that they need to gain that knowledge and where to gain it from. The big problem being that these people don’t know what they don’t know, have probably never seen these technical discussions “all over the internet”, and even if they have then they will not have been able to understand what it means in practice. There is a middle ground here. No need to put all the arguments on the DL page, but put a note along the lines of “unless you are certain you need to use i386 then you should use the AMD64 images, for more information see ”. It’s not offensive to those who do need those versions, it’s educational to those who didn’t know, and it doesn’t take up much space on the page. FWIW, even technical users can lack what some may think is “really basic knowledge” - I fell that the most important thing I’ve learned over the years is just how much I don’t know ! At a previous place I only got “hand me down” hardware as the company manglement were (and still are) wedded to a mindset of “if it didn’t come from Redmond then we don’t want to know” and so the services I ran on Debian only got hardware that had been retired from Windoze hosting due to Windows Server requirements. Eg, At one time I had a load of Dell 2850 servers as they’d had to upgrade to 2950 (or better) - I vaguely recall that it was a requirement of HyperV for a better processor. For a long time, ALL my servers were i686 images. This was partly because I had older servers (as my immediate manager (a knowledgable and good chap) put it, 9 years past their refresh date), but partly because it was a long time after it became the case before I found out that newer Intel processors run AMD64 images. Of course, even when I got a host capable of running AMD64 code, I still had to keep my VMs compatible with the older hosts. A couple of years ago I managed to get some AMD64 based machines as hosts - still ancient hand-me-downs but massive upgrades in capability and much reduced power consumption - and started migrating stuff to AMD64. But before I could get very far they made the 2 of us left redundant and got rid of it all - the “I don’t understand it so it’s going” mentality of a particular mangler. I did feel sorry for some of the customers as this mangler produced one screwup after another due entirly to his “change stuff and see what breaks” approach to systems reliability - a five day email outage that I could have fixed in a couple of hours (most of that being time to copy the mail store), customers DNS breaking because he had no clue about how DNS secondaries work when you just remove the master, …. But that’s drifting off the topic - it’s not fair to assume that everyone else knows what you do, and if they don’t then it’s their fault. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] One week into Devuan 2.0 ASCII -- Some stats
On Tue, Jun 19, 2018 at 11:14:37PM +0200, Arnt Karlsen wrote: > ..also possible to e.g. have i386 installer kernels test the cpu etc > hardware and go "Hey, your cpu can run the i586 kernel, upgrade?" Sounds like a great idea! -- ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀ There's an easy way to tell toy operating systems from real ones. ⣾⠁⢰⠒⠀⣿⡁ Just look at how their shipped fonts display U+1F52B, this makes ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ the intended audience obvious. It's also interesting to see OSes ⠈⠳⣄ go back and forth wrt their intended target. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] pgcli bash completion script included in the official package
On Tue, Jun 19, 2018 at 07:52:51PM +0200, Antonio Trkdz.tab wrote: > I wrote a bash completion script for the pgcli utility, a command line > interface for Postgres - https://www.pgcli.com/ > > I would like to get it included in the official package. > Shall I report a wishlist bug for Devuan or for Debian, so that the former > can get it (in case) from upstream? The very best way is to have it accepted in the real upstream (ie, pgcli guys). Your pull request should accomplish it -- but I see it hasn't been responded to in 19 days. Not sure why -- is the Travis failure real? If not, you might want to ping or otherwise contact upstream. If that fails, it's a lot better to file a bug on Debian rather than Devuan: * Devuan concentrates on desystemdizing packages, any package to maintain draws away from that task * any diff from Debian would need to be carried for a long time, complicating future updates * the package maintainer (in Debian) has a lot better knowledge of it * you get orders of magnitude more users (even if some of them are systemd-using heretics...), which means more potential contributors Meow! -- ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀ There's an easy way to tell toy operating systems from real ones. ⣾⠁⢰⠒⠀⣿⡁ Just look at how their shipped fonts display U+1F52B, this makes ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ the intended audience obvious. It's also interesting to see OSes ⠈⠳⣄ go back and forth wrt their intended target. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Devuan ASCII 32bit images
On Wed, Jun 20, 2018 at 07:09:12AM +0200, aitor_czr wrote: > El 20/06/18 a las 02:16, Ozi Traveller escribió: > > Are the 32bit images 586 or 686? > > > > I think the Jessie images were 586. > > linux-4.9.x is built in 686 and 686-pae And more importantly, userland packages are built using 686 instructions. Replacing or using an old kernel is trivial, rebuilding the world is not. Meow! -- ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀ There's an easy way to tell toy operating systems from real ones. ⣾⠁⢰⠒⠀⣿⡁ Just look at how their shipped fonts display U+1F52B, this makes ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ the intended audience obvious. It's also interesting to see OSes ⠈⠳⣄ go back and forth wrt their intended target. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] One week into Devuan 2.0 ASCII -- Some stats
On Mon, Jun 18, 2018 at 02:06:12PM -0400, Clarke Sideroad wrote: > > As a Linux user for over two decades I don't think twice about > adding the applications I want and dumping the ones I don't, As a Linux user for over two decades I feel the same way, with one proviso: Provided I have a clue what the package does. With soe of the obscure package names I see nowadays, that's not necessarily true. It might be a package essential for the proper functionoing of apt. With network-related packages, that's quite possible. Life can be ough when you're cut off from the package repository. -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] One week into Devuan 2.0 ASCII -- Some stats
Le 20/06/2018 à 03:07, Steve Litt a écrit : What tends to leave a lasting impression with me is whether the desktop environment, its applications and controls feel like a cooperative, cohesive experience or like a jumble of individual tools that happen to be part of the same operating system. In my opinion Ubuntu running the Unity desktop and Linux Mint's Cinnamon desktop are good [snip] I believe Devuan falls into the other category, presenting the user with a collection of utilities and features where some assembly is still required. Yep, call me The Assembler. I like the program granularity enabling me to easily set up my all-black-screened Openbox+Dmenu to do the way*I* want to do them, instead of using his recommended Unity (Is this April 1?) to do it Shuttleworth's way. With his priorities, I think the reviewer would be much happier with a Mac. Same for me: I fitrst started to dislike KDE because it provided its own integrated tools as replacements for existing apps. Didier ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] One week into Devuan 2.0 ASCII -- Some stats
On Tue, 19 Jun 2018 at 19:38:55 +0200 Adam Borowski wrote: [...] > The problem is that people are not told why they should away from i386, and Of course they are, it's all over the Internet. > when faced with a choice they don't understand they often make a bad > decision. Do you mean that when you tell them they do not listen/understand? Most people lack good judgement and technical expertise to take basic security steps when they use their PCs anyway, just think of all those who still run Microsoft or Apple products! ;-) >> I mean, there are not many distributions out there still offering >> support for i686 hardware, and we have actually received many emails >> of users who thank Devuan for supporting i686 and letting them >> continue using their "old" hardware that you would like to see >> discontinued. > > I'm not suggesting dropping support -- to the contrary, shifting back to 586 > would be a good idea! My point is, there's no way 28% of x86 users are on > pre-2004 hardware, We already went throught this in the past. Intel only stopped producing 32 bit PIV in 2008, according to Wikipedia. Myself I still operate a 3.4GHz PIV made in 2007. And there still are 32bit x86 machines being produced and marketed to this day: http://www.compactpc.com.tw/product.aspx?act=detail=680 I do agree most of 32bit systems in use today are not new units but legacy PCs, still they are secure enough when they are used as servers that only run their own distribution's software. How are you going to upload and run malware that could take advantage of side-channel and speculative execution attack vectors? I do not think they are still being used as workstations, they are a slug when you use them to browse present day JS- and CSS-laden web sites. Alessandro ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
