Re: [DNG] Danger: Debian POSIX hostility
On Sun, 13 Sep 2020 10:51:27 -0700, Rick wrote in message <20200913175126.gp29...@linuxmafia.com>: > Quoting goli...@devuan.org (goli...@devuan.org): > > > A link to this rant was posted on FDN yesterday. I had never heard > > of Luke Smith before and was not particularly impressed with either > > his presentational style or his bemoaning the death of white, male > > privilege but . . . I could very well imagine Linux going down the > > path his "nightmare" imagines. > > > > https://libre.video/videos/watch/b576019d-8957-4efb-8571-6a14e0889136 > > Some people are not destined to be on-camera presenters, and should > content themselves with blogging and essays (which among other things > don't require watching some distraught, wild-eyed dweeb rant for eight > freakin' minutes), > > I don't think Mr. Smith is very clear on what a kernel is. ..he does appear to understand what systemd-homed is capable of doing to us if we don't watch out: https://linuxreviews.org/Systemd-homed https://linux.slashdot.org/story/19/09/21/0110240/systemd-homed-systemd-now-working-to-improve-home-directory-handling https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item=systemd-homed ...and, their comments... -- ..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt Karlsen ...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry... Scenarios always come in sets of three: best case, worst case, and just in case. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Danger: Debian POSIX hostility
The problem for me is that I would rather work on new stuff. Systemd and so on are symptoms of the Unix design not really being a good fit for modern demands. That doesn't mean that you band-aid them with systemd, it's time for a different architecture. It is also time for what comes after Open Source, as I have talked about here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vTsc1m78BUk It's not clear how much of this I will personally get to work upon. Thanks Bruce On Sun, Sep 13, 2020 at 9:08 PM terryc wrote: > On Sun, 13 Sep 2020 11:13:02 -0500 > goli...@devuan.org wrote: > > > > A link to this rant was posted on FDN yesterday. I had never heard of > > Luke Smith before and was not particularly impressed with either his > > presentational style or his bemoaning the death of white, male > > privilege but . . . I could very well imagine Linux going down the > > path his "nightmare" imagines. > > > > https://libre.video/videos/watch/b576019d-8957-4efb-8571-6a14e0889136 > > entry for the worst video ever made? > Thank for watching it and summarising it. > > > > If Debian doesn't wake up and reverse course what will become of > > Devuan? The entire Linux ecosystem as we have known it could become a > > nostalgic footnote in the history of the digital age. > > > > It's a good time to be old . . . > > Feels that way. > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng > -- Bruce Perens - CEO at stealth startup. I'll tell you what it is eventually :-) ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Danger: Debian POSIX hostility
On Sun, 13 Sep 2020 11:13:02 -0500 goli...@devuan.org wrote: > A link to this rant was posted on FDN yesterday. I had never heard of > Luke Smith before and was not particularly impressed with either his > presentational style or his bemoaning the death of white, male > privilege but . . . I could very well imagine Linux going down the > path his "nightmare" imagines. > > https://libre.video/videos/watch/b576019d-8957-4efb-8571-6a14e0889136 entry for the worst video ever made? Thank for watching it and summarising it. > > If Debian doesn't wake up and reverse course what will become of > Devuan? The entire Linux ecosystem as we have known it could become a > nostalgic footnote in the history of the digital age. > > It's a good time to be old . . . Feels that way. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Danger: Debian POSIX hostility
Anno domini 2020 Sun, 13 Sep 11:13:02 -0500 goli...@devuan.org scripsit: > On 2020-09-13 01:14, Steve Litt wrote: > > On Sat, 12 Sep 2020 16:11:48 -0500 > > goli...@devuan.org wrote: > > > >> On 2020-09-12 15:28, Steve Litt wrote: > >> > Hi all, > >> > > >> > I think Devuan might want to "put back" POSIX commands Debian has > >> > removed (but provides packages for). See the following thread from > >> > Debian-User: > >> > > >> > https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2020/09/msg00334.html > >> > > >> > Lennart Poettering has repeatedly and with certainty let us know he > >> > has no use for POSIX. I guess now the Debian project is acting as > >> > his proxy in this matter. > >> > > >> > Did you notice the one guy who said it would be "it would be 'rude' > >> > to impose something wanted by only a part of the users"? > >> > > >> > Personally, if my operating system doesn't come, as a baseline, with > >> > vi, ed, cut, grep, sed, awk, bc, dc, diff, dd, df, du, fg, head, > >> > tail, and the like, then it isn't an OS I'd want to use. The fact > >> > that an OS isn't certified POSIX is no excuse for deliberately > >> > leaving out easily included POSIX programs and features. > >> > > >> > Is it possible for Devuan to "put back" what Debian sabotaged? > >> > > >> > Thanks, > >> > > >> > SteveT > >> > > >> > >> Probably. Are you going to volunteer to do/oversee that? > > > > Nope. My volunteering these days is difficult, much more important than > > any Linux distro, and not bothered with by about 98% of the population > > to which it's crucial. I'm blowing off time I really should be working > > to do this volunteerism, and have no remaining time to learn > > package-managership and then herd all the cats into accepting my > > packaging solutions. > > > > If I sound like an asshole, it's because I've had a very frustrating > > several days, during which no good deed I did went unpunished. > > > > SteveT > > > > (to the sound of a mournful violin) > > We all have priorities and those priorities will set the course of the > future of Linux as we have known it. But there are much bigger issues on > the horizon than POSIX. Heck, there are much bigger issues looming than > the future of Linux . . . > > A link to this rant was posted on FDN yesterday. I had never heard of > Luke Smith before and was not particularly impressed with either his > presentational style or his bemoaning the death of white, male privilege > but . . . I could very well imagine Linux going down the path his > "nightmare" imagines. > > https://libre.video/videos/watch/b576019d-8957-4efb-8571-6a14e0889136 > > If Debian doesn't wake up and reverse course what will become of Devuan? > The entire Linux ecosystem as we have known it could become a nostalgic > footnote in the history of the digital age. From the link you posted earlier: some people think that the problems of debian are caused by systemd .. well, I would agree to that. But if Debian goes haywire, there is still FreeBSD. On my systems it started as a bckup plan just in case systemd would take over all linux world. Today it's my alternative OS for day to day work. And if you feel lonly, there's a community, too :) https://forums.theregister.com/forum/all/2020/09/10/debian_project_address/ > > It's a good time to be old . . . > > golinux > > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng > -- Please do not email me anything that you are not comfortable also sharing with the NSA, CIA ... ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Danger: Debian POSIX hostility
Quoting goli...@devuan.org (goli...@devuan.org): > A link to this rant was posted on FDN yesterday. I had never heard > of Luke Smith before and was not particularly impressed with either > his presentational style or his bemoaning the death of white, male > privilege but . . . I could very well imagine Linux going down the > path his "nightmare" imagines. > > https://libre.video/videos/watch/b576019d-8957-4efb-8571-6a14e0889136 Some people are not destined to be on-camera presenters, and should content themselves with blogging and essays (which among other things don't require watching some distraught, wild-eyed dweeb rant for eight freakin' minutes), I don't think Mr. Smith is very clear on what a kernel is. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Danger: Debian POSIX hostility
On 2020-09-13 01:14, Steve Litt wrote: On Sat, 12 Sep 2020 16:11:48 -0500 goli...@devuan.org wrote: On 2020-09-12 15:28, Steve Litt wrote: > Hi all, > > I think Devuan might want to "put back" POSIX commands Debian has > removed (but provides packages for). See the following thread from > Debian-User: > > https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2020/09/msg00334.html > > Lennart Poettering has repeatedly and with certainty let us know he > has no use for POSIX. I guess now the Debian project is acting as > his proxy in this matter. > > Did you notice the one guy who said it would be "it would be 'rude' > to impose something wanted by only a part of the users"? > > Personally, if my operating system doesn't come, as a baseline, with > vi, ed, cut, grep, sed, awk, bc, dc, diff, dd, df, du, fg, head, > tail, and the like, then it isn't an OS I'd want to use. The fact > that an OS isn't certified POSIX is no excuse for deliberately > leaving out easily included POSIX programs and features. > > Is it possible for Devuan to "put back" what Debian sabotaged? > > Thanks, > > SteveT > Probably. Are you going to volunteer to do/oversee that? Nope. My volunteering these days is difficult, much more important than any Linux distro, and not bothered with by about 98% of the population to which it's crucial. I'm blowing off time I really should be working to do this volunteerism, and have no remaining time to learn package-managership and then herd all the cats into accepting my packaging solutions. If I sound like an asshole, it's because I've had a very frustrating several days, during which no good deed I did went unpunished. SteveT (to the sound of a mournful violin) We all have priorities and those priorities will set the course of the future of Linux as we have known it. But there are much bigger issues on the horizon than POSIX. Heck, there are much bigger issues looming than the future of Linux . . . A link to this rant was posted on FDN yesterday. I had never heard of Luke Smith before and was not particularly impressed with either his presentational style or his bemoaning the death of white, male privilege but . . . I could very well imagine Linux going down the path his "nightmare" imagines. https://libre.video/videos/watch/b576019d-8957-4efb-8571-6a14e0889136 If Debian doesn't wake up and reverse course what will become of Devuan? The entire Linux ecosystem as we have known it could become a nostalgic footnote in the history of the digital age. It's a good time to be old . . . golinux ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Danger: Debian POSIX hostility
Quoting Steve Litt (sl...@troubleshooters.com): > Nope. My volunteering these days is difficult, much more important than > any Linux distro, and not bothered with by about 98% of the population > to which it's crucial. I'm blowing off time I really should be working > to do this volunteerism, and have no remaining time to learn > package-managership and then herd all the cats into accepting my > packaging solutions. Hmm. The low-hanging fruit would be to provide a list of POSIX-relevant packages omitted by default from a default install by ISOs of interest. This would make it easy for someone to make a virtual posix-tools package consisting of a bunch of Depends references to the individual real packages required. I'm still not convinced this is a problem needing addressing. You know why the Linux kernel never implemented the full POSIX.1 suite's requirements in kernelspace? That was because Torvalds knew how Unix bureaucrats worked: Every time, during early Linux history, someone put pressure on the kernel team to support all of POSIX.1, Torvalds pushed back and said 'Tell you what. Show us what real software is breaking for lack of support for some syscall or other, and we'll see what can be done. In this fashion, the kernel team developed kernel support code only for the subset of POSIX.1 _actually in use_, instead of earning buzzword compliance just to satisfy some academic committee's wishlist. What resulted was, well, something with agility and performance, i.e., not Solaris. I believe this remains the kernel team's attitude to POSIX, to this day: "I'm sorry, but what real problem are you saying requires solving?" On a OS-system level, IMO, there's a limit to which it makes sense to address the 'Some guy hasn't yet figured out apt-get' by increasing the size of an ISO's default installation. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Danger: Debian POSIX hostility
On Sat, 12 Sep 2020 16:11:48 -0500 goli...@devuan.org wrote: > On 2020-09-12 15:28, Steve Litt wrote: > > Hi all, > > > > I think Devuan might want to "put back" POSIX commands Debian has > > removed (but provides packages for). See the following thread from > > Debian-User: > > > > https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2020/09/msg00334.html > > > > Lennart Poettering has repeatedly and with certainty let us know he > > has no use for POSIX. I guess now the Debian project is acting as > > his proxy in this matter. > > > > Did you notice the one guy who said it would be "it would be 'rude' > > to impose something wanted by only a part of the users"? > > > > Personally, if my operating system doesn't come, as a baseline, with > > vi, ed, cut, grep, sed, awk, bc, dc, diff, dd, df, du, fg, head, > > tail, and the like, then it isn't an OS I'd want to use. The fact > > that an OS isn't certified POSIX is no excuse for deliberately > > leaving out easily included POSIX programs and features. > > > > Is it possible for Devuan to "put back" what Debian sabotaged? > > > > Thanks, > > > > SteveT > > > > Probably. Are you going to volunteer to do/oversee that? Nope. My volunteering these days is difficult, much more important than any Linux distro, and not bothered with by about 98% of the population to which it's crucial. I'm blowing off time I really should be working to do this volunteerism, and have no remaining time to learn package-managership and then herd all the cats into accepting my packaging solutions. If I sound like an asshole, it's because I've had a very frustrating several days, during which no good deed I did went unpunished. SteveT Steve Litt Autumn 2020 featured book: Thriving in Tough Times http://www.troubleshooters.com/thrive ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
