Re: [DNG] Why X does keyboard and mouse.
On Thu, Dec 31, 2020 at 12:21:47PM -0500, Hendrik Boom wrote: > On Thu, Dec 31, 2020 at 11:53:51AM -0500, Steve Litt wrote: > > > > > > It didn't have to be this way. In 2020, better alternatives could have > > been made. If I were the project manager, the first thing I'd do is > > uncouple keyboard, mouse and video from each other. Why X has anything > > to do with keyboard or mouse is beyond me. > > Perhaps because X was originally a means of having a graphical user interface > to multiple machines over a network. Which usualy involves a screen, > keyboard, > and mouse. > > Each X window could be talking to a different computer. It mattered which > computer your keystrokes went to. And I normally run with several windows on one screen, connected via X to differenf computers. -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Why X does keyboard and mouse.
On Thu, Dec 31, 2020 at 12:39:21PM -0500, Steve Litt wrote: > On Thu, 31 Dec 2020 12:21:47 -0500 > Hendrik Boom wrote: > > > On Thu, Dec 31, 2020 at 11:53:51AM -0500, Steve Litt wrote: > > > > > > > > > It didn't have to be this way. In 2020, better alternatives could > > > have been made. If I were the project manager, the first thing I'd > > > do is uncouple keyboard, mouse and video from each other. Why X has > > > anything to do with keyboard or mouse is beyond me. > > > > Perhaps because X was originally a means of having a graphical user > > interface to multiple machines over a network. Which usualy involves > > a screen, keyboard, and mouse. > > > > Each X window could be talking to a different computer. It mattered > > which computer your keystrokes went to. > > Yes, but that doesn't preclude three or more separate pieces of > software: One for the screen, one for the keyboard, and one for the > mouse. There can be others as input devices are added. There could even > be a struct that passes a pointer to each of those three (or more). The X server would still have to take the keystrokes, see which window was active and sent those keystrokes to the remote machine using that window. That connects them together. Not clear what would be the advantage in using separate channels except maybe achieving confusion in the order of clicks and keybard events. When the remote machine gets these clicks and events, it can do what it pleases with them. There was even a provision for having a window manager (which could run on a third machine) and intervene in the conversations. But when the X inventors did this, they left out audio. I can connect to a remote host, run a media player, and never hear the sound, because it's playing on the remote host. -- hendrik > > SteveT > > Steve Litt > Autumn 2020 featured book: Thriving in Tough Times > http://www.troubleshooters.com/thrive > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] vdev (was: Re: if2mac init.d service for persistent network interface names)
Le 31/12/2020 à 17:53, Steve Litt a écrit : > Next, I'd base the video solution on SVG. It was a big error to not use vector graphics in the X-terminals from the beginning. I recall that PotScript existed before X, and PostScript is practically equivalent to SVG - only missing transparency. I remember that, at that time, I was shocked. -- Didier ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Finding installed packages, but from a backup
Quoting Antony Stone (antony.st...@devuan.open.source.it): > > this might be helpful : > > https://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/161866 > > Hm, some lessons for naïve sysadmins in there :) My _personal_ favourite part of that StackExchange page is where it says there's a solution to that difficult and vexing problem in the Linuxmafia.com Knowledgebase at http://linuxmafia.com/faq/Debian/package-database-rebuild.html . (But probably that's just me.) -- Cheers, "Like looking both ways before crossing the street, and Rick Moenthen getting hit by a submarine." -- Clarke Smith, age 9, r...@linuxmafia.com winner of Washington Post's contest for best description McQ! (4x80) of the year 2020 in a single word or phrase. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Why X does keyboard and mouse.
On Thu, 31 Dec 2020 12:21:47 -0500 Hendrik Boom wrote: > On Thu, Dec 31, 2020 at 11:53:51AM -0500, Steve Litt wrote: > > > > > > It didn't have to be this way. In 2020, better alternatives could > > have been made. If I were the project manager, the first thing I'd > > do is uncouple keyboard, mouse and video from each other. Why X has > > anything to do with keyboard or mouse is beyond me. > > Perhaps because X was originally a means of having a graphical user > interface to multiple machines over a network. Which usualy involves > a screen, keyboard, and mouse. > > Each X window could be talking to a different computer. It mattered > which computer your keystrokes went to. Yes, but that doesn't preclude three or more separate pieces of software: One for the screen, one for the keyboard, and one for the mouse. There can be others as input devices are added. There could even be a struct that passes a pointer to each of those three (or more). SteveT Steve Litt Autumn 2020 featured book: Thriving in Tough Times http://www.troubleshooters.com/thrive ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] vdev (was: Re: if2mac init.d service for persistent network interface names)
On Thu, 31 Dec 2020 08:18:02 -0600 o1bigtenor wrote: > I don't really play any games - - - I > have too much fun just using software on my system - - - - but then > I'm a business man and self-employed and that means, by definition, > that I'm weird. Me too, o1bigtenor. My computer enables me to produce and sell books, teach systematic Troubleshooting mindset and techniques, and write software to make my business's workflow better. People like us are often ignored when software decisions are made. Back in the Windows days, we were called "Power Users" and respected. Trade mags had many articles addressed to people like us. Today it seems we're just a minority to be ignored in the rush to somehow "market" the Linux Desktop --- an endeavor that's been failing miserably for two decades now. This is one of the many reasons I'm glad Devuan exists. Devuan's rejection of systemd removes the attempt to embed my Linux computer in epoxy and force me to use only systemd's dials and switches, which of course are one to several needless levels of abstraction that really do nothing to simplify, but only get in the way. Like you, my income depends on my Linux computer. That puts us in a whole different category from gamers, and from dwobes who use their computers for social media without understanding anything about a computer. > I am working with software in a very wide range of > things, from CADD to CAM (that very little at present), to > spreadsheets, to starting to work in self designed software > supporting equipment that I'm fabricating and a bunch of other > things. To date I've been mostly a software user but am starting on > becoming a software developer because in certain areas software just > isn't adequate. In the software using I've found myself pushing the > envelope because I combine things in ways that seem to all too often > be non-customary. Exactly! Luckily, we still have POSIX, which is a simple way to achieve amazing things with lightning speed. Just a little knowledge of Python or Perl, AWK, sed, C and shellscripting can usually produce the exact behavior you're seeking, which is exactly what Thompson and Richie were trying to accomplish. SteveT Steve Litt Autumn 2020 featured book: Thriving in Tough Times http://www.troubleshooters.com/thrive ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] Why X does keyboard and mouse.
On Thu, Dec 31, 2020 at 11:53:51AM -0500, Steve Litt wrote: > > > It didn't have to be this way. In 2020, better alternatives could have > been made. If I were the project manager, the first thing I'd do is > uncouple keyboard, mouse and video from each other. Why X has anything > to do with keyboard or mouse is beyond me. Perhaps because X was originally a means of having a graphical user interface to multiple machines over a network. Which usualy involves a screen, keyboard, and mouse. Each X window could be talking to a different computer. It mattered which computer your keystrokes went to. -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] vdev (was: Re: if2mac init.d service for persistent network interface names)
On Thu, 31 Dec 2020 08:18:02 -0600 o1bigtenor wrote: > On Wed, Dec 30, 2020 at 4:34 PM Steve Litt > wrote: > > > > On Wed, 30 Dec 2020 09:51:33 -1000 > > Joel Roth via Dng wrote: > snip > > One question: How does your above statement hold up when Wayland > > becomes the law of the land? > > > > Greetings > > From what little I"ve been able to discern about Wayland I really > hope that it doesn't become the law of the land. Me too. My impression is that Wayland is from the same crew who brought us systemd, will probably require systemd unless modified, and breaks all the UI software I currently use (Openbox and dmenu). The problem is that X really sucks, and unlike systemd, there are no alternatives like runit, s6, Epoch, Busybox init, or OpenRC to prevent it from being a binary choice. I'll keep X as long as possible, because "sucks" is better than "breaks all your software" or "requires systemd". But much like that nasty UEFI, sooner or later I think we'll be stuck with it. It didn't have to be this way. In 2020, better alternatives could have been made. If I were the project manager, the first thing I'd do is uncouple keyboard, mouse and video from each other. Why X has anything to do with keyboard or mouse is beyond me. Next, I'd base the video solution on SVG. It's clean, scaleable, convertable to just about anything including a bitmap for your screen. It's a standard, and it doesn't depend on what init system you're using, or any other extraneous nonsense. If SVG is too slow and bulky because it's XML, I'd create a smaller version of SVG. I'm not going to do this, because I'm not smart enough. But I'm pretty sure it could be done and would blow the doors off of either X or Wayland. As far as the keyboard, we had that completely solved in 1989, with interrupts and keymaps. Add in internationalization, which is a problem solved many years ago, and that's all you need for the keyboard. All you need to know for mice is either the coordinates that got clicked or other-evented, or the object. I've already made several interactive SVG files, with Inkscape, that, when displayed in a browser, change colors or whatever on events, or institute software commands (which of course could be generalized callback routines). It didn't have to be a choice between Wayland and X, but it is, thanks to an organization I might despise more than Poettering/Redhat: FreeDesktop.Org. SteveT Steve Litt Autumn 2020 featured book: Thriving in Tough Times http://www.troubleshooters.com/thrive ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Finding installed packages, but from a backup
Dear Anthony, Am Donnerstag, 31. Dezember 2020 schrieb Antony Stone: > Hi. > > I know I can get a list of the packages installed on a > currently-running system using commands such as: > > dpkg-query -l > apt list --installed > aptitude search ~i > > However, if there any way I can do the same thing, but when I simply > have a copy (backup) of the machine, and it's not currently running? > The backup is on another Debian / Devuan system (which may or may not > be the same release version). > > I have _all_ files from the machine I want to investigate, and I'm > hoping that there's something in /var/cache/apt or /var/lib/dpkg > which would allow me to get the same sort of list as the above > commands produce. > > Does anyone have any ideas? You need the contents of the directory "/var/lib/dpkg", then easy-peasy go with this: dpkg --admindir=/dir/to/backup/of/var/lib/dpkg --get-selections "**" HTH Kind regards, Stefan ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] vdev (was: Re: if2mac init.d service for persistent network interface names)
On Thu, Dec 31, 2020 at 8:18 AM o1bigtenor wrote: > > On Wed, Dec 30, 2020 at 4:34 PM Steve Litt wrote: > > > > On Wed, 30 Dec 2020 09:51:33 -1000 > > Joel Roth via Dng wrote: > snip > > One question: How does your above statement hold up when Wayland > > becomes the law of the land? > > > > Greetings > > From what little I"ve been able to discern about Wayland I really hope that > it doesn't become the law of the land. > ( I will admit that I"m downright weird - - - - I have 2 graphics cards and > presently 4 monitors with the 5th sitting waiting for time to install. > One of my cards is old enough so that I run nouveau instead of any > proprietary option (the card is EOLed!). I first set up this system in > the beginning of 2011 and really struggled to find useful information > to run this multi-monitor setup. There is a tiny bit of information that > is available since the initial setup but very little which tells me that > running multi-gpu and multi-monitor is highly unusual in the linux > community. I just finished yesterday a project where I actually was > needing to use all 4 monitors (all the screen real estate) and I still found > myself wishing for more. For setup after any boot or reboot I use > xrandr using notes from what I was able to find (xrandr is very terribly > exampled and the notes are adequate but really do need a lot of > experimenting - - - - which is not comfortable for most!!) better > develop for myself. > > Spent a little time just now doing some searching and it seems that > multi-gpu and serious multi-monitor (more than 2) is now considered > to be the province of gamers. I don't really play any games - - - I have > too much fun just using software on my system - - - - but then I'm a > business man and self-employed and that means, by definition, that > I'm weird. I am working with software in a very wide range of things, > from CADD to CAM (that very little at present), to spreadsheets, to > starting to work in self designed software supporting equipment that > I'm fabricating and a bunch of other things. To date I've been mostly a > software user but am starting on becoming a software developer > because in certain areas software just isn't adequate. In the software > using I've found myself pushing the envelope because I combine things > in ways that seem to all too often be non-customary. > > So - - - to draw the circle a little closer to closed - - - - what I see in > Wayland doesn't enthuse me one iota - - - multi-gpu and serious i > multi-monitor stuff is really still considered 'weird' and that means > that its not really supported and if there is some support - - - - its > called good luck finding it. (Most of the information on the web for > xrandr is for version 1.3 (meaning version 3) or earlier yet I have found > a hint that version 1.6 is immanent but I can't really find any information > on what is proposed.) > > (>rant off) I possibly should have changed the topic - - - - mea culpa! ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] vdev (was: Re: if2mac init.d service for persistent network interface names)
On Wed, Dec 30, 2020 at 4:34 PM Steve Litt wrote: > > On Wed, 30 Dec 2020 09:51:33 -1000 > Joel Roth via Dng wrote: snip > One question: How does your above statement hold up when Wayland > becomes the law of the land? > Greetings From what little I"ve been able to discern about Wayland I really hope that it doesn't become the law of the land. (rant off) ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Finding installed packages, but from a backup
Not sure this is exactly what you are after but I have a cron job that runs:
dpkg --get-selections | grep -v "deinstall$" | grep -v "hold$" | grep
"install" | awk '{print $1;}'
and put the output in a file that I backup or grab, i.e.
~/selections-$(hostname).txt.
The file is usually just a reference but it could be fed to apt after a
minimal install to produce a new similar system.
//PG
On 2020-12-31 11:50, Antony Stone wrote:
Hi.
I know I can get a list of the packages installed on a currently-running
system using commands such as:
dpkg-query -l
apt list --installed
aptitude search ~i
However, if there any way I can do the same thing, but when I simply have a
copy (backup) of the machine, and it's not currently running? The backup is
on another Debian / Devuan system (which may or may not be the same release
version).
I have _all_ files from the machine I want to investigate, and I'm hoping that
there's something in /var/cache/apt or /var/lib/dpkg which would allow me to
get the same sort of list as the above commands produce.
Does anyone have any ideas?
Antony.
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Re: [DNG] Finding installed packages, but from a backup
On Thursday 31 December 2020 at 12:18:24, Dimitris via Dng wrote:
> Στις 31/12/20 12:50 μ.μ., ο/η Antony Stone έγραψε:
> > I have_all_ files from the machine I want to investigate, and I'm hoping
> > that there's something in /var/cache/apt or /var/lib/dpkg which would
> > allow me to get the same sort of list as the above commands produce.
>
> /var/lib/dpkg/status holds all installed packages.
Ooh, excellent - thanks - just what I needed :)
> this might be helpful :
> https://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/161866
Hm, some lessons for naïve sysadmins in there :)
Thanks,
Antony.
--
#define SIX 1+5
#define NINE 8+1
int main() {
printf("%d\n", SIX * NINE);
}
- thanks to ECB for bringing this to my attention
Please reply to the list;
please *don't* CC me.
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Re: [DNG] Finding installed packages, but from a backup
Στις 31/12/20 12:50 μ.μ., ο/η Antony Stone έγραψε: I have_all_ files from the machine I want to investigate, and I'm hoping that there's something in /var/cache/apt or /var/lib/dpkg which would allow me to get the same sort of list as the above commands produce. /var/lib/dpkg/status holds all installed packages. this might be helpful : https://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/161866/how-to-recreate-var-lib-dpkg-status d. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] Finding installed packages, but from a backup
Hi. I know I can get a list of the packages installed on a currently-running system using commands such as: dpkg-query -l apt list --installed aptitude search ~i However, if there any way I can do the same thing, but when I simply have a copy (backup) of the machine, and it's not currently running? The backup is on another Debian / Devuan system (which may or may not be the same release version). I have _all_ files from the machine I want to investigate, and I'm hoping that there's something in /var/cache/apt or /var/lib/dpkg which would allow me to get the same sort of list as the above commands produce. Does anyone have any ideas? Antony. -- Wanted: telepath. You know where to apply. Please reply to the list; please *don't* CC me. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
