Re: [DNG] Pipewire and PulseAudio: apulse & firefox

[Ralph Ronnquist via Dng]

On Wed, 5 Jan 2022 18:30:25 +0100
Antoine via Dng  wrote:

> On Tuesday,  4 January at 14:24, Bob Proulx via Dng wrote:
> > (...)
> >Portable shell use would be "whatever() {" which I wish to encourage
> >by saying that here.  Please use only that form for /bin/sh scripts.
> >:-)
> >
> >The "function" keyword was introduced by ksh.  This syntax is also
> >supported by bash and zsh but not by other shells.  When "function"
> >is used then the #! line must be /bin/ksh, /bin/bash, or /bin/zsh.  
> 
> Well, learn something new every day...
> Thank you for that little nugget.

Agree.

You need to add a second line "alias function=''" in the scripts to
enjoy the "function foo()" syntax also with /bin/sh and /bin/dash 

Ralph.
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Re: [DNG] make-rc: A parallel (as in make(1)) alternative to sysv-rc

[Alejandro Colomar (man-pages) via Dng]

Hi Adrian,

On 1/5/22 14:42, Adrian Zaugg wrote:

Hi Alejandro

In der Nachricht vom Wednesday, 5 January 2022 03:03:53 CET schrieb Alejandro
Colomar (man-pages) via Dng:

So, if the problem is that the rc scripts don't run parallel and don't
know about exact dependencies from each-other, let's rewrite that part


rc.scripts do run in parallel and they know about dependencies, this is what
the LSB tags in the beginning of the init scripts are for. See insserv (8).


Ahhh, that's where all of those numbers come from!  That's good to know. 
 Now I can edit my scripts to get the info directly from the LSB tags 
to get more precise makefiles.  Thanks!


I know that currently rc already parallelizes (I learnt it a few days 
ago while reading through its code).  However, it's inefficient, given 
that the real dependencies are known but not used.  Let me show with an 
example:


Let's imagine there are 5 scripts A, B, C, D, and E.  Each of them has 
the following dependencies:


A:
B:
C: A
D: A
E: C

And let's say that they take the following time (in units, let's say 
seconds) to execute:


A 1
B 5
C 1
D 5
E 1

Now, I'll guess that the algorithm to chose the order in which to 
execute them, since it knows nothing about the time each one takes to 
execute, simply assigns levels according to dependencies:


lvl1: A, B
lvl2: C, D
lvl3: E

This will lead to the following run time:

AD
BCE


See those gaps?  The CPU is sleeping there.  Not good.
A total of 11 s.  Better than the 13 s that it would take if serial, but 
much worse than ideal.  I admit this is a specially crafted example, but 
wonder how far from ideal a real scenario is.


With make(1), this would be fully optimized, as I guess systemd(1) also 
does.  make(1) would run it like this:


ACD
BE

A total of 7 s.


Of course, we need to take into account that we're loading make(1), 
which is not exactly light, and that will add some time (hopefully 
negligible), and then there's also the time of calculating the 
dependency tree at run-time instead of compiling it in the form of 
numerated symlinks, but I hope that the sum of the added times will be 
less than the improvement in times due to full parallelization, and will 
result in a net win.  There will also be one less program to maintain: 
startpar(1), which will be replaced by make(1), which many systems 
already have.



$ ls -lh $(realpath $(which startpar make dash bash))
-rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 1.2M Dec 15 00:43 /bin/bash
-rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 123K Nov  3 11:51 /bin/dash
-rwxr-xr-x 1 root root  39K Sep 23 12:03 /bin/startpar
-rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 235K Apr 10  2021 /usr/bin/make

systemd(1) was about 1.8M.


I guess the scripts I wrote would be the replacement for insserv(1), to 
compile from LSB-formatted dependencies to Makefile-formatted dependencies.


Any thoughts?


Thanks,

Alex

--
Alejandro Colomar
Linux man-pages maintainer; http://www.kernel.org/doc/man-pages/
http://www.alejandro-colomar.es/
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Re: [DNG] merged /usr breakage

[Hendrik Boom]

On Wed, Jan 05, 2022 at 09:54:20PM +0100, Didier Kryn wrote:
> Le 05/01/2022 à 16:11, Hendrik Boom a écrit :
> > On Wed, Jan 05, 2022 at 12:08:18AM +0100, Didier Kryn wrote:
> > > Le 04/01/2022 à 23:38, Hendrik Boom a écrit :
> > > > On Tue, Jan 04, 2022 at 05:09:58PM +0100, Didier Kryn wrote:
> > > > > There is no utility in splitting the OS in several partitions.
> > > > Might it make sense to have /usr mounted readonly except when upgradng
> > > > or installing paackages?
> > > > 
> > >      What could you fear which makes you want to keep /usr readonly.
> > software that isn't properly packaged as a .deb, but instead has an
> > "installer" that needs to be run as root.
> 
>     If the installer must be run as root, it is precisely because it needs
> to install software in /usr. You have an alternative: either mount /usr
> readwrite and install it, or keep /usr readonly and not install it. Keeping
> /usr readonly and trying to install the software has no chance to work.


Such software should be installing to /opt, but might not.

> 
>     I have written such a software, called hopman. This discussion suggests
> me that I should provide the option to install it in a user's directory,
> without the need to be root, rather than install it system-wide.
> 
> > software that is properly packaged, but has components that run as root
> > but do stuff with /usr outside my expectations.
> 
>     Do you mean a package from a Debian repository which would install a
> trojan horse in /usr?

Packages from other sources that are built for Debian but aren't part of Debian.

-- hendrik

> 
> --     Didier
> 
> 
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Re: [DNG] Printer trouble again. -- solved

[Hendrik Boom]

On Sat, Jan 01, 2022 at 03:07:44PM -0500, Hendrik Boom wrote:
> I installed CUPS a part of the standard istall long ago.
> I had no trouble configuring it back the to talk sweet to me printer.
> Worked fine.  Bu tnow it doesn't.
> 
> The printer seems to hae changed its IP number.
> Now I can tell it explicitly what IP numder to use by entering stuff in its 
> physical control panel.  So all I should have to do is to set its IP number 
> to 
> whatever CUPS (now unsuccessfuly) uses to talk to it. 
> 
> What I don't know is how to get CUPS to tell me what IP number it currently 
> thinks 
> belongs to the printer.
> 
> There should be some simple way of asking CUPS to tell me this.
> 
> -- hendrik

As I mentioned esewhere, the problem wasn't that CUPS had the wrong IP number.
And I thought I'd have to delete CUPS knowledge of my printer before starting 
over with its cofiguration. 
But I could find no way to tell CUPS to remove a printer (and it seems to know 
several that no longer exist.)


However, I just went to http port 631 on localhost and told it to add a printer.
Worked like a charm.  Don't know what it did with the old printer description.
Presumably it *is* possiblt to have two identical printers with different 
options.

-- hendrik

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Re: [DNG] merged /usr breakage

[Didier Kryn]

Le 05/01/2022 à 16:11, Hendrik Boom a écrit :

On Wed, Jan 05, 2022 at 12:08:18AM +0100, Didier Kryn wrote:

Le 04/01/2022 à 23:38, Hendrik Boom a écrit :

On Tue, Jan 04, 2022 at 05:09:58PM +0100, Didier Kryn wrote:

There is no utility in splitting the OS in several partitions.

Might it make sense to have /usr mounted readonly except when upgradng
or installing paackages?


     What could you fear which makes you want to keep /usr readonly.

software that isn't properly packaged as a .deb, but instead has an
"installer" that needs to be run as root.


    If the installer must be run as root, it is precisely because it 
needs to install software in /usr. You have an alternative: either mount 
/usr readwrite and install it, or keep /usr readonly and not install it. 
Keeping /usr readonly and trying to install the software has no chance 
to work.


    I have written such a software, called hopman. This discussion 
suggests me that I should provide the option to install it in a user's 
directory, without the need to be root, rather than install it system-wide.



software that is properly packaged, but has components that run as root
but do stuff with /usr outside my expectations.


    Do you mean a package from a Debian repository which would install 
a trojan horse in /usr?


--     Didier


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Re: [DNG] Pipewire and PulseAudio: apulse & firefox

[Antoine via Dng]

On Tuesday,  4 January at 14:24, Bob Proulx via Dng wrote:

(...)
Portable shell use would be "whatever() {" which I wish to encourage
by saying that here.  Please use only that form for /bin/sh scripts. :-)

The "function" keyword was introduced by ksh.  This syntax is also
supported by bash and zsh but not by other shells.  When "function" is
used then the #! line must be /bin/ksh, /bin/bash, or /bin/zsh.


Well, learn something new every day...
Thank you for that little nugget.

- Antoine

--
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and only a fool will want to use it.
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Re: [DNG] merged /usr breakage

[Hendrik Boom]

On Wed, Jan 05, 2022 at 12:08:18AM +0100, Didier Kryn wrote:
> Le 04/01/2022 à 23:38, Hendrik Boom a écrit :
> > On Tue, Jan 04, 2022 at 05:09:58PM +0100, Didier Kryn wrote:
> > > There is no utility in splitting the OS in several partitions.
> > Might it make sense to have /usr mounted readonly except when upgradng
> > or installing paackages?
> > 
>     What could you fear which makes you want to keep /usr readonly.

software that isn't properly packaged as a .deb, but instead has an 
"installer" that needs to be run as root. 

software that is properly packaged, but has components that run as root 
but do stuff with /usr outside my expectations.

-- hendrik
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Re: [DNG] make-rc: A parallel (as in make(1)) alternative to sysv-rc

[Adrian Zaugg]

Hi Alejandro

In der Nachricht vom Wednesday, 5 January 2022 03:03:53 CET schrieb Alejandro 
Colomar (man-pages) via Dng:
> So, if the problem is that the rc scripts don't run parallel and don't
> know about exact dependencies from each-other, let's rewrite that part

rc.scripts do run in parallel and they know about dependencies, this is what 
the LSB tags in the beginning of the init scripts are for. See insserv (8).

Regards, Adrian.

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Re: [DNG] busybox init

[Didier Kryn]

Le 04/01/2022 à 03:08, Steve Litt a écrit :

k...@aspodata.se  said on Mon,  3 Jan 2022 18:45:28 +0100 (CET)



Would there be any interests having a busybox_init package which
I could possible maintain (with a little help) ?

My opinion is that the more init systems the merrier, except for
systemd.

If busybox init does not require daemons to self-background, I'd be
even more enthusiastic.

SteveT


    Busybox init is merely a simplified replacement for sysvinit. As 
sysvinit, it can be used to invoke either the famous scripts invoquing 
servers which background themselves or any supervisor or launcher of 
your choice.


    The striking feature of Busybox, in the context of a /usr merge, is 
that it has no runtime dependency if you build it as a statically linked 
executable, which is probably the most popular way to build it. I.e. it 
does not need a shared library to run, therefore does not depend on 
anything in /usr. And it provides anything you would find in /bin and 
/sbin and all the base system utilities you can find in /usr/bin and 
/usr/sbin. When you configure it, you just specify the applictions you want.


--     Didier

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Re: [DNG] snetaid debs...

[al3xu5 via Dng]

Mon, 3 Jan 2022 22:02:48 +0100 - aitor :

> Hi,
> 
> On 3/1/22 12:05, al3xu5 via Dng wrote:
> > After upgraded to Chimaera, I wsa able to install snetaid .deb
> > packets without problems.
> >
> > It seems it works as expected.
> >
> > Many thanks Aitor!  
> 
> Good :)
> 
> > PS:  I would also kindly ask you for information on the status of
> > simple-netaid-gtk
> >
> > Thanks again  
> 
> I do not dare giving a precise date for the packages of the gtk
> interface, because there are also other key-areas on which i would like
> to spend my time, such as vdev or the live-sdk documentation, among
> others. Even though, if it appears to be a widespread desire on
> prioritize any of these concrete areas, it could be carred out in the
> short term.

The snetaid gtk inteface would be nice, but certainly not urgent.


> Cheers, and thanks for your interest!

Thanks to you.
al3xu5

-- 
Say NO to copyright, patents, trademarks and industrial design
restrictions!


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Re: [DNG] How to make non /usr merged dpgs (was: Re: merged /usr breakage)

[aitor]

Hi Karl,

En 5 de enero de 2022 11:24:13  escribió:


Karl:

The first one gives me an unbootable system
$ ldd /sbin/init | grep /usr
libpcre2-8.so.0 => /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libpcre2-8.so.0 
(0x7f737ba28000)

...

So, how do I change the above package to install the lib in
/lib//x86_64-linux-gnu instead ?

I can get the source with:
$ apt-get source libpcre2-8-0
$ cd pcre2-10.36/debian

is it sufficient to change this file ?
$ cat libpcre2-8-0.install
debian/tmp/usr/lib/*/libpcre2-8.so.*
$

and if I manage to create the package, what name should I give it,
something like libpcre2-8-0_nonusrmerge or what ?


I can't answer in detail from my mobile, but one way to go is majing use of 
dh_exec. Look at this, as sample:


https://gitea.devuan.dev/aitor_czr/libnetaid/src/branch/gbp-master/debian

Keep in mind that the *.install files must be exeutable.

Aitor.





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Re: [DNG] How to make non /usr merged dpgs (was: Re: merged /usr breakage)

[aitor]

Hi Karl,

En 5 de enero de 2022 11:24:13  escribió:


Karl:

The first one gives me an unbootable system
$ ldd /sbin/init | grep /usr
libpcre2-8.so.0 => /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libpcre2-8.so.0 
(0x7f737ba28000)

...

So, how do I change the above package to install the lib in
/lib//x86_64-linux-gnu instead ?

I can get the source with:
$ apt-get source libpcre2-8-0
$ cd pcre2-10.36/debian

is it sufficient to change this file ?
$ cat libpcre2-8-0.install
debian/tmp/usr/lib/*/libpcre2-8.so.*
$

and if I manage to create the package, what name should I give it,
something like libpcre2-8-0_nonusrmerge or what ?
I can't answer in detail from my mobile, but you can give a try to dh_exec. 
The *.install files must be executables.


Aitor.




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Re: [DNG] How to make non /usr merged dpgs (was: Re: merged /usr breakage)

[Antony Stone]

On Wednesday 05 January 2022 at 11:24:08, k...@aspodata.se wrote:

> > $ ldd /sbin/init | grep /usr
> > 
> > libpcre2-8.so.0 => /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libpcre2-8.so.0
> > (0x7f737ba28000)
> 
> So, how do I change the above package to install the lib in
> /lib//x86_64-linux-gnu instead ?
> 
>  I can get the source with:
> $ apt-get source libpcre2-8-0
> $ cd pcre2-10.36/debian

Make sure you cd to the version you just downloaded :)

>  is it sufficient to change this file ?
> $ cat libpcre2-8-0.install
> debian/tmp/usr/lib/*/libpcre2-8.so.*
> $

No, I would expect it to be one of the ./configure options during the build 
process.

> and if I manage to create the package, what name should I give it,
> something like libpcre2-8-0_nonusrmerge or what ?

Sure; call it what you like.  From De{bi,vu}an's point of view what's 
important is the "provides" section of the Debian build description.


Antony.

-- 
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'weekending'.  It put a premium on people who could write things that lasted 
thirty seconds, and Douglas was incapable of writing a single sentence that 
lasted less than thirty seconds.

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   Please reply to the list;
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[DNG] How to make non /usr merged dpgs (was: Re: merged /usr breakage)

[karl]

Karl:
>  The first one gives me an unbootable system
> $ ldd /sbin/init | grep /usr
> libpcre2-8.so.0 => /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libpcre2-8.so.0 
> (0x7f737ba28000)
...

So, how do I change the above package to install the lib in 
/lib//x86_64-linux-gnu instead ?

 I can get the source with:
$ apt-get source libpcre2-8-0
$ cd pcre2-10.36/debian

 is it sufficient to change this file ?
$ cat libpcre2-8-0.install 
debian/tmp/usr/lib/*/libpcre2-8.so.*
$

and if I manage to create the package, what name should I give it,
something like libpcre2-8-0_nonusrmerge or what ?

Regards,
/Karl Hammar

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Re: [DNG] merged /usr breakage

[karl]

Aitor:
> On 4/1/22 22:17, k...@aspodata.se wrote:
> > the problem is that the lib is on a
> > filesystem that isn't available at kernel to init handover time.
> Did you try something like this:
> copy_exec /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libpcre2-8.so.0
> in a hook located at/usr/share/initramfs-tools, in order to include it in the 
> initrd? Sorry, 
> but i'm a bit unaware of the thread...

No, haven't tried it, don't use initrd, booting directly to disk.

Regards,
/Karl Hammar


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[DNG] Question about the text editor named medit.

[Edward Bartolo via Dng]

Dear All,

Going to packages/debian.org I found other packages similar to medit
like bluefish and jedit. I tried jedit first, but its font rendering
is aggressive on my aging eyes and resorted to using bluefish which
has its font rendering more comparable to medit's.

That is the beauty of open source: it ultrapampers its users by a wide
choice! Not only, there is no software lock-in, but it offers several
other choices with more advanced features.

Thanks to all developers who employ their precious time to offer this to all.
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