Re: [DNG] [OT] bash / quote weirdness
Simon said on Thu, 13 Jan 2022 18:38:56 + >Steve Litt wrote: > >> This is one reason why, in shellscripts, you >> need to quote almost all variables: So they act correctly with the >> space laden filenames that windows dwoobydogs just love to create. > >Not just Windows users. I regularly use spaces in file names. > >There’s an argument that computers should be tools, not slavemasters. >I’m sure you’ll remember going back a few decades how interacting with >computers meant that the human had to learn how to deal with the >computer’s way of doing things. The preceding is true to a great extent. But not a total extent. There's a tradeoff between user friendly and program simplicity. I don't think substituting underscores for spaces **in filenames** is a substantial inconvenience for the user. [snip] >Similarly with file names. Once upon a time the human had to adapt to >what the computer supported - such as fitting your entire file name >into 8 characters. But that kind of restriction isn't being discussed here. It's a strawman. > Now the computer (mostly) supports what is natural >for a human - and that includes using spaces in their writing. >After_all_it_does_seem_a_bit_un-natural_not_being_allowed_to_use_spaces_in_your_writing_-_it_would_make_a_hard_to_read_book_! We're not talking about books. Or text files. Or anything except filenames. Very_few_people_make_filenames_this_long, and if they do, with a little practice it's pretty easy to use underscore instead of space. As long as we're strawmanning, let's go all the way. Instead of issuing "file not found" when a filename isn't found, we can include an AI module in every program that decides what the user *really* meant when typing in the filename. It can analyze every filename on the computer, perhaps look at its contents, and then decide which the user really wanted, and open that one. Or, if the file is clicked from a file manager type interface, the AI can analyze all similarly named files in that directory and others, and issue an "Are you sure" with ranked choices of other possibilities. My point is that sure a computer should be more of a tool than a slavemaster, but it's a tradeoff, not an absolute. There's a spectrum. Programming around every conceivable filename increases software complexity. Let's not forget that simplicity and small attack surface are assets. One more thing: One person's "user friendly" is another person's "user hostile". The "we do it all for you" interface aiding the person not willing to bend at all to the machine is the "we get in your way" interface for the person who wants to bend the machine to his/her workflow. SteveT Steve Litt Spring 2021 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques of the Successful Technologist http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] [OT] bash / quote weirdness
Olaf Meeuwissen said on Fri, 14 Jan 2022 18:40:40 +0900 >Hi, > >Steve Litt writes: > >> [...] Here at Troubleshooters.Com, spaces and all punctuation except >> underscore and hyphen are forbidden, but files coming in from the >> outside have horrible filenames. > >Pretty sure you allow periods too ;-P Yes, I allow periods too. Forgot about that. But I try to use the periods only to separate the filetype and try to have only one period in the fileNAME. SteveT Steve Litt Spring 2021 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques of the Successful Technologist http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] bash / quote weirdness
Benjamin Riefenstahl said on Fri, 14 Jan 2022 10:33:29 +0100 >Hi Steve, > >> Benjamin Riefenstahl said on Thu, 13 Jan 2022 18:19:23 +0100 >>>Different code paths within Bash. [...] > >Steve Litt writes: >> This is true, but not the explanation for this particular behavior, >> as follows: >> >> [slitt@mydesk ~]$ /usr/bin/cat -n /etc/fstab | cut -b 1-20 | head -n5 >> 1 UUID=730eaf92 >> 2 UUID=41abb5fd >> 3 UUID=96cfdfb3 >> 4 UUID=6F66-BF7 >> 5 tmpfs /tmp tm >> [slitt@mydesk ~]$ "/usr/bin/cat -n" /etc/fstab | cut -b 1-20 | head >> -n5 bash: /usr/bin/cat -n: No such file or directory >> [slitt@mydesk ~]$ "/usr/bin/cat -n /etc/fstab" | cut -b 1-20 | head >> -n5 bash: /usr/bin/cat -n /etc/fstab: No such file or directory >> [slitt@mydesk ~]$ > >I'm sorry, but I don't see it? Can you point out what is suprising to >you here? Both commands contain "/", and both give the same error >message. > >so long, benny I thought you were saying that the cause of "cat -n" /etc/fstab being seen as one command was due to cat not having a full path, so I put a full path in front of it. If you weren't saying lack of a full path is the cause of "cat -n" being considered a single command, then my prepending the full path produces no surprise at all. SteveT Steve Litt Spring 2021 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques of the Successful Technologist http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] [OT] Apple Mac programming (was: bash / quote weirdness)
Hendrik Boom wrote: >> I recall a lot of resistance when Apple brought out the Mac and suddenly >> programmers had to learn how to write programs that did what the user wanted >> - when the user wanted. > > Sounds good. But for the first two years the Mac was out, programmers > couldn't use it to write programs. To program it you had to use a much moe > expensive machine, and Apple Lisa. > > Not what I, a potential user, wanter. > > After two years, somewone marketed a Pascal interpreter -- not even a > compiler. Indeed, there were multiple issues at first - but programmers resistant to doing a bit of work so the user didn’t have to was one of them. Back in 84 I was at Uni and took out out for a Test Drive and Apple was calling it back then - no intension or ability to actually buy one ! I do recall when I returned it and being asked what I thought, replying along the lines of “nice machine, pity they are trying to cripple it with s**t marketing” as the test drive program was (IMO) really horrible. At work I have to use Windows laptops, and it’s a constant reminder of how Apple brought standardisation every time I try Ctrl-W and remember that in Outlook it’s Esc to close a window, or in IE Ctrl-W doesn’t work if it’s a PDF in the window. MS can’t even standardise basics within it’s own dross, so it’s no wonder no-one else bothers either. We had the full set of Inside Mac back then - strange to think that the entire programming manuals (dead trees back then) were only about 3” thick back then ! But one of the 3 manuals was entirely dedicated to what the UI should look like and how it should work. Was it Borland that did the Pascal first ? Simon ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] request for assistance
Greetings When I put this system together ( a LONG time ago) nvidia was not quite the pariah it has become in the open source community. So I'm stuck with nouveau for drivers (its a long explanation but trust me I'm STUCK there!). Nouveau is really not as wonderful as it purports to be and I would love nothing better than to move to a Radeon solution except changing the whole system for that is just a little cost prohibitive and then newer gpus are mostly limited to at best 4 outputs and I have 5. Don't really want to buy 2 cards either as that makes things just too bloody expensive. So a new system is on hold until this one shows definite signs of imminent demise or somebody drops a bunch of $$$ into my pocket (fat chance of that!!). So I have filed a bug report over at nouveau's system and they are telling me to do something that I just can't find any information on the web as a how to. Maybe someone here knows this area (kernel/gpu/drm/whatever other software they're dragging in!) and could advise. I'm told to: rebuild the kernel with CONFIG_NOUVEAU_DEBUG_PUSH=y followed by: boot the machine with drm.debug=0x16 log_bug_len=50m nouveau.debug=disp=trace (the second command is maybe covered here: https://www.howtoforge.com/tutorial/kernel-boot-parameter-edit/ but if there is a better/easier way please advise!!) Is there anyone who can help? (I really want to use that 4k monitor - - - I've been looking at it for about 8 months now and when I connect it well - - - I get 2 to 16 hours of uptime and then its time to reboot - - - a royal pita() at best) TIA ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] [OT] bash / quote weirdness
Hi, Steve Litt writes: > [...] Here at Troubleshooters.Com, spaces and all punctuation except > underscore and hyphen are forbidden, but files coming in from the > outside have horrible filenames. Pretty sure you allow periods too ;-P -- Olaf MeeuwissenFSF Associate Member since 2004-01-27 GnuPG key: F84A2DD9/B3C0 2F47 EA19 64F4 9F13 F43E B8A4 A88A F84A 2DD9 Support Free Softwarehttps://my.fsf.org/donate Join the Free Software Foundation https://my.fsf.org/join ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] bash / quote weirdness
Hi, Steve Litt writes: > Benjamin Riefenstahl said on Thu, 13 Jan 2022 18:19:23 +0100 > >>Hi Steve, >> >>Steve Litt writes: >>> [slitt@mydesk ~]$ "cat -n" /etc/fstab | cut -b 1-20 | head -n5 >>> bash: cat -n: command not found >>> [slitt@mydesk ~]$ "cat -n /etc/fstab" | cut -b 1-20 | head -n5 >>> bash: cat -n /etc/fstab: No such file or directory >>> [slitt@mydesk ~]$ >> >>Different code paths within Bash. When there is a "/" in the command >>name, that is a file that has to exist by that exact name (the file >>name can be relative, though). When there is no "/", then and only >>then the command is searched along $PATH, and if it is not found >>there, the error message is different from the other case. > > This is true, but not the explanation for this particular behavior, as > follows: > > [slitt@mydesk ~]$ /usr/bin/cat -n /etc/fstab | cut -b 1-20 | head -n5 Here your shell look for a file called "cat" i /usr/bin. > 1UUID=730eaf92 > 2UUID=41abb5fd > 3UUID=96cfdfb3 > 4UUID=6F66-BF7 > 5tmpfs /tmp tm > [slitt@mydesk ~]$ "/usr/bin/cat -n" /etc/fstab | cut -b 1-20 | head -n5 Here your shell looks for a file called "cat -n" in /usr/bin. > bash: /usr/bin/cat -n: No such file or directory > [slitt@mydesk ~]$ "/usr/bin/cat -n /etc/fstab" | cut -b 1-20 | head -n5 Here your shell looks for a file called "fstab" in a directory called "etc" in a directory called "cat -n " in /usr/bin. > bash: /usr/bin/cat -n /etc/fstab: No such file or directory Given that, I believe Benjamini's explanation still holds. Hope this helps, -- Olaf MeeuwissenFSF Associate Member since 2004-01-27 GnuPG key: F84A2DD9/B3C0 2F47 EA19 64F4 9F13 F43E B8A4 A88A F84A 2DD9 Support Free Softwarehttps://my.fsf.org/donate Join the Free Software Foundation https://my.fsf.org/join ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] bash / quote weirdness
Hi Steve, > Benjamin Riefenstahl said on Thu, 13 Jan 2022 18:19:23 +0100 >>Different code paths within Bash. [...] Steve Litt writes: > This is true, but not the explanation for this particular behavior, as > follows: > > [slitt@mydesk ~]$ /usr/bin/cat -n /etc/fstab | cut -b 1-20 | head -n5 > 1UUID=730eaf92 > 2UUID=41abb5fd > 3UUID=96cfdfb3 > 4UUID=6F66-BF7 > 5tmpfs /tmp tm > [slitt@mydesk ~]$ "/usr/bin/cat -n" /etc/fstab | cut -b 1-20 | head -n5 > bash: /usr/bin/cat -n: No such file or directory > [slitt@mydesk ~]$ "/usr/bin/cat -n /etc/fstab" | cut -b 1-20 | head -n5 > bash: /usr/bin/cat -n /etc/fstab: No such file or directory > [slitt@mydesk ~]$ I'm sorry, but I don't see it? Can you point out what is suprising to you here? Both commands contain "/", and both give the same error message. so long, benny ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] [OT] bash / quote weirdness
On Thu 13/Jan/2022 19:38:56 +0100 Simon wrote: Similarly with file names. Once upon a time the human had to adapt to what the computer supported - such as fitting your entire file name into 8 characters. Now the computer (mostly) supports what is natural for a human - and that includes using spaces in their writing. After_all_it_does_seem_a_bit_un-natural_not_being_allowed_to_use_spaces_in_your_writing_-_it_would_make_a_hard_to_read_book_! Indeed, early writings didn't use spaces, not even underscores, to separate words. And they had no 'puters at the time. Spaces in filenames may look friendlier than underscores, but they undergo a few annoying characteristics due to the fact that they cannot be seen. You cannot distinguish them from tabs, or do you have a convention to not use tabs in file names? And in that case may I ask why? Oh, tabs do something else in a "save as..." form? Well, spaces do something else when you use them on the command line. They require quoting, which is annoying. When used in URLs spaces become %20, which is not more readable than _. For some reason, nobody use spaces in the local part of email addresses, although the syntax allows it. People do so in order to be easier. Please don't use spaces in the names of files that you share. Best Ale -- ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
