Re: [DNG] On talk.do and Web forums
> On September 29, 2016 at 1:13 AM Edward Bartolo <edb...@gmail.com> wrote: > > Hi, > > My suggestion is to use phpbb3 which is in debian.org's repositories. > There is no reason to use something else for a forum *assuming* Devuan > is free to install what it sees fit on its servers. > > Edward I disagree: "There is no reason to use something else" This is all about UI/UX, it's not a technical decision based of availability of software packages. The question is, what is the most effective solution for our communication? PHPBB is an enormous interface. We need only an iota of it to work well. Peter Olson ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Openrc
> On September 16, 2016 at 9:51 AM Didier Kryn <k...@in2p3.fr> wrote: > > Le 16/09/2016 13:15, KatolaZ a écrit : > > On Fri, Sep 16, 2016 at 12:24:45PM +0200, Didier Kryn wrote: > > > > [cut] > > > >> Steve, > >> > >> I like more and more this idea of separating the tasks: > >> - pid1 (sysvinit or whatever) performs one-shot startups and basic > >> supervision (like for getty), > >> - services needing a sophisticated supervisor use a supervisor which > >> is > >> only a supervisor, not pid1, > >> - services which depend on conditions use specialized tools to wait > >> for > >> these conditions. > >> > > That looks like a great plan, but who will supervise the supervisors? > > :) > > > > I admit this might seem like a stupid comment, at least at first > > sight, but whenever you introduce a supervision system under unix you > > most probably end up deciding that the supervision should be delegated > > to pid1, since pid1 is the only process able to guarantee that > > supervision will be working, whatever happens. > Nobody supervises pid1, OK? So why would the supervisor need to be > supervised? It is supposed to be rock solid. Note that it can be barely > relaunched by sysvinit in the same way as getty. > > Didier In the spirit of the minimal PID1 in 30 lines of code, I would propose that one of the RC tasks spawned by it would be the minimal supervisor in about 30 lines of code, which only supervises supervisors and knows how to launch/relaunch them. Failure unlikely. The OOM killer won't ever see it, right? It would require a separation in PID1's RC to move supervisable things into the other list, or perhaps a way for a PID1 supervisable task to ask for other supervision. Bleah, this could be more clearly expressed :-) Peter Olson ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Which license for UMENU2?
> On August 24, 2016 at 1:20 AM Steve Litt <sl...@troubleshooters.com> wrote: [...] > A couple notes: The above Expat URL says Expat license is GPL > compatible. I don't like GPLv3 because it's too complicated and IMHO a > little too restrictive. Expat's similar to some MIT and BSD licenses > and the X11 license. What complication don't you like about GPLv3+ ? > Any opinions on which to choose? > > Thanks, > > SteveT Peter Olson ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Distrowatch Devuan poll do-over
> On August 19, 2016 at 2:25 PM Steve Litt <sl...@troubleshooters.com> wrote: > > On Fri, 19 Aug 2016 14:06:24 -0400 > fsmithred <fsmith...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > For anyone who's interested in the results before they got wiped, > > I just voted again, "ready to use" again. I'm able to vote multiple > times because I'm originally from Chicago. Boston has dibs on that as well. Peter Olson ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] GRUB shell
> On August 17, 2016 at 9:32 AM fsmithred <fsmith...@gmail.com> wrote: > > On 08/17/2016 07:09 AM, aitor_czr wrote: > > > > Hi Peter, > > > > On 08/17/2016 12:32 PM, Peter Olson <pe...@peabo.com> wrote: > >> What does "e" plus tab key twice do? > >> > > > >> > >Is there some way I could try this on a system which boots > >> successfully to find out about this? > >> > > > >> > >Peter Olson > > > > Refracta uses grub in live mode, as he said in the IRC Channel. But ask > > him... > > > > Cheers, > > > > Aitor. [...] > Also, you must have missed Peter's response. He's now a lover of the grub > shell. (Not sure if "Welcome to the dark side" applies here or not.) It would be fair to say that I don't need to wear sunglasses while working on my busted machine. It may be that part of my difficulty is that I don't generally use tab completion in the shell, so I wouldn't have thought of that as an avenue to help. Also, my experience with the Grub shell has been GRUB-RESCUE> :-( Years ago my bitter experience with this was doing a dist-upgrade on my machine and finding it bricked. Turned out that for whatever reason the RAID support was enumerating MD 0/1 as MD 127/126. It certainly wasn't obvious and a better sysadmin than me didn't figure it out either. In this case, I have not yet fixed Grub, but the CD allows be to boot either of my systems, so I have some breathing room before having to recreate my Grub configuration. Peter Olson ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] GRUB shell (was: vdev)
> On August 14, 2016 at 7:12 AM fsmithred <fsmith...@gmail.com> wrote: > > On 08/14/2016 05:50 AM, Peter Olson wrote: > >> On August 14, 2016 at 5:31 AM Arnt Karlsen <a...@iaksess.no> wrote: > > > > [...] > > > >> ..one neat thing about grub, is its shell, once you get the menu, > >> hit "e" and then the tab key twice, and play around to familiarize > >> yourselves with how it works, e.g how it finds disks, files, and > >> how you can boot into root's shell with e.g. "init=/bin/bash". > > > > My own experience with Grub has been less than "neat". > > > > But maybe that is because the times I have experienced Grub, my machine has > > been broken and I have been desperate to fix it. As far as I can tell, > > Grub has no help built in. You have to be an expert to use it. > > > > What does "e" plus tab key twice do? > > > > Is there some way I could try this on a system which boots successfully to > > find out about this? > > > > Peter Olson > > ___ > > I had the good fortune to attend a presentation at a LUG meeting on using > the grub shell soon after I started using linux, and before I actually > needed it. I love the grub shell (except when I hate it.) Booting a > working system manually is good practice. > > e lets you edit the highlighted menu entry. > c just drops you to a grub prompt. > TAB complete works > TAB TAB for help. > > This, or some slight variation of it, usually works to boot an > installation on the first partition of the first hard disk: > > c > set root=(hd0,1) > linux /vmlinuz ro root=/dev/sda1 > initrd /initrd.img > boot > > Here's a pretty good guide for booting from the grub shell. > https://www.linux.com/learn/how-rescue-non-booting-grub-2-linux This was stupendous. I now know how to type something sane at the GRUB-RESCUE> prompt. I have made a cheat sheet, which I will upload to my Wiki in the cloud. Also, this was great: http://www.supergrubdisk.org/ The machine which won't boot has had its partitions thoroughly recreated and permuted, so GRUB has no idea what is going on, but the CD image figures out enough that I can boot either of two systems on the disk (I have a production system and a maintenance/ohshitrecovery system :-). Now I can figure out the fix for the on-board Grub at my leisure. > -fsr Peter Olson ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] vdev
> On August 14, 2016 at 5:31 AM Arnt Karlsen <a...@iaksess.no> wrote: [...] > ..one neat thing about grub, is its shell, once you get the menu, > hit "e" and then the tab key twice, and play around to familiarize > yourselves with how it works, e.g how it finds disks, files, and > how you can boot into root's shell with e.g. "init=/bin/bash". My own experience with Grub has been less than "neat". But maybe that is because the times I have experienced Grub, my machine has been broken and I have been desperate to fix it. As far as I can tell, Grub has no help built in. You have to be an expert to use it. What does "e" plus tab key twice do? Is there some way I could try this on a system which boots successfully to find out about this? Peter Olson ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] vdev
> On August 13, 2016 at 4:45 AM aitor_czr <aitor_...@gnuinos.org> wrote: As you know, today is August 12, not August 13. PLEASE FIX YOUR COMPUTER CLOCK Here is the trace of your message: START > Received: from [192.168.0.10] (114.62-99-112.dynamic.clientes.euskaltel.es [62.99.112.114]) (Authenticated sender: aitor_...@gnuinos.org) by player761.ha.ovh.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 7C0E748009A; Fri, 12 Aug 2016 10:47:58 +0200 (CEST) From: aitor_czr <aitor_...@gnuinos.org> Message-ID: <57aede0d.90...@gnuinos.org> Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2016 10:45:01 +0200 Hi Ralph, Richard: On 08/12/2016 03:50 AM, Ralph Ronnquist <ralph.ronnqu...@gmail.com> wrote: > The set up I now have, does the right thing on boot. I think. < END I'm not going to read anything you say that shows up in my inbox tomorrow. If I did, it would show up in my inbox yesterday, already read. But in either case, it shows up in an incongruous position in the discussion thread, where I cannot make sense of the discussion. Please fix this. Peter Olson ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Bootloaders (was: SystemD's brownie points over non-systemd OSs)
> On August 10, 2016 at 3:01 AM Simon Hobson <li...@thehobsons.co.uk> wrote: > > Peter Olson <pe...@peabo.com> wrote: > > > I have a machine in that state right now, and rather than try to debug it > > at the Grub prompt, I am just going to reinstall the system. > > That's a bit like the old "I'm buying a new car because the ashtray is full" > joke. Actually it is not. Turns out, I had managed to screw up my partition table. So Grub would never in a million years be able to boot anything off that disk. I found this out during reinstallation when I was presented with a partition table different from what I expected. Nevertheless, my complaint is that Grub is not helpful in these circumstances, lacking even a help command at its prompt. You really need impeccable Grub-fu or another computer with net access. Anyway, the reinstallation worked well, and I will restore the data off my original disk (I was replacing a 20 GB disk with a 160 GB disk when I ran into the problem). Peter Olson ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Bootloaders (was: SystemD's brownie points over non-systemd OSs)
> On August 9, 2016 at 11:06 PM Rick Moen <r...@linuxmafia.com> wrote: > > Quoting Peter Olson (pe...@peabo.com): > > > Of course, it is difficult to shoot yourself in the foot with GRUB ... > > > > > > I have a machine in that state right now, and rather than try to debug > > it at the Grub prompt, I am just going to reinstall the system. My > > data is all in another partition, so it is really the easiest way to > > proceed. > > Seriously, have you considered just booting a live CD, chrooting to the > system root, looking around to find the filenames of the correct kernel > binary and initrd, installing the lilo deb, constructing a minimal > /etc/lilo.conf, and running '/sbin/lilo -v'? It might be the painless > alternative. > > Something like: > > prompt > boot=/dev/sda > root=/dev/sda1 > map = /boot/map > timeout = 50 > default = linux > vga = normal > > image = /boot/bzImage > initrd=/boot/initrd.img > label = linux > read-only That would be a cool way to do it, but it's a machine where I work, so I would have to document it and support it (different from all our other machines). Thanks for the advice though. It could be helpful for others. Peter Olson ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Bootloaders (was: SystemD's brownie points over non-systemd OSs)
> On August 9, 2016 at 3:04 AM Rick Moen <r...@linuxmafia.com> wrote: > > Quoting Peter Olson (pe...@peabo.com): > > > I apologize for top-posting, but I have no idea what you are talking about. > > > > For the record, I am not fond of GRUB2 either. > > For my next-generation server rebuild, I'm going to be using the > extlinux bootloader, part of the Syslinux project. (extlinux is the > bootloader; Syslinux is the project/toolkit that includes it.) > http://shallowsky.com/linux/extlinux.html > http://www.syslinux.org/wiki/index.php?title=EXTLINUX > > I've never been even a tiny bit thrilled about Erich Stefan Boleyn's > GRUB 0.9x that at this point is aka 'GRUB Legacy'. At some past > transition of Debian stable from one branch to another -- I see that it > was the one from 2.2 'potato' to 3.0 'sarge' -- my Works for Me[tm] > installation of lilo got auto-discarded and replaced by GRUB. I > couldn't help noticing that GRUB is horribly, grotesquely overengineered > for the task. I kept thinking, 'lilo wasn't broken. Why did they fix it?'[1] My principal complaint about GRUB is that it works very well until one day when it doesn't, when it now provides the minimal help conceivable to boot your machine. You had better have another computer handy to get help, because GRUB won't help you. My sad tale from several years ago involved a problem where a RAID 1 device was enumerated differently, but more recently I have had problems with trying to boot a supposedly exact restored copy of a system on a different disk. Peter Olson ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] SystemD's brownie points over non-systemd OSs.
I apologize for top-posting, but I have no idea what you are talking about. For the record, I am not fond of GRUB2 either. Peter Olson > On August 9, 2016 at 1:52 AM Edward Bartolo <edb...@gmail.com> wrote: > > Considering the fact that many Linux users moan about not being able > to run the latest "shiny" software, and sometimes even complain and > insist they want their MS Windows applications on their Linux > machines, I have to concede them, that this time systemd scored an > extra brownie point in their favour. This alone will be an extra > reason for any of them to choose systemd. > > I am saying this because Linux users are very diverse, with > experienced and knowledgeable system administrators being a small > minority. In my opinion, if Devuan want to be a competitor/alternative > it must provide the same functionality with reasonably the same effort > and efficiency. It is useless to tell the younger generations they > should lock themselves somewhere to research and study if they can > effectively do the same task with little to no effort. > > My biggest motivation to support Devuan and all "old style Linuxes" is > derived from the fact that I do not conform to a ready made recipe > telling me to do everything in a rigid way that often interferes with > how I want to use a computer. This very machine I am using right now > has a complicated setup with an independent boot-loader although the > GRUB2 developers made a huge effort to force users to use GRUB2 as an > integrated part of their installation. I remember when the changes > took place I immediately devised a workaround to have GRUB2 installed > in an independent way as I wanted it. Yes, there are many users who > would scold me for doing it the way I did it, but that is my choice. > When it proves itself to be less efficient than doing it "the right > way" it will be time for me to reconsider my choice. > > Now systemd is looming ahead with even more restrictions and lock-ins. > Keep it up people, choice is sacrosanct and fighting for it does not > come free of injuries. > > Edward > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Fearsome rumblings from GNU
> On August 7, 2016 at 1:22 PM Brian Nash <bcn...@gmail.com> wrote: > > Greetings everyone. > > This is just a heads up, GNU has had a few changes floating around for a > while, and it looks like they are finally making it into distributions. > > Currently, only Fedora is affected (which I doubt anyone here uses), > but it is possible that these changes will make it to Debian as well. > > Attached is a copy of one user's thoughts on the `ls` command. As far as I can see, the original poster doesn't say what the change is. (Maybe some attachments got lost in the forwarding?) I haven't looked into the changelog of coreutils to try to find out, but it would be helpful to know what is at issue here. Peter Olson ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] C Obfuscated code: a virtue or a vice?
> On July 16, 2016 at 4:47 AM Jaromil <jaro...@dyne.org> wrote: > > On Fri, 15 Jul 2016, Peter Olson wrote: > > > I'm a fan of Donald Knuth as well. My funny story is that when I > > was in college, I got an offer from Addison-Wesley to preorder the > > seven volume set "The Art of Computer Programming" for the low. low > > price of $119. It's now more than 40 years later and volumes 5, 6, > > and 7 are still missing :-) I'm glad I didn't take the offer :) > > wait a sec, besides that is a ridicolously low price just for the > volumes he has already written, AFAIK he is on schedule with the > initial writing plan, at least until present volume 4. please check it > yourself, last time I did I saw that he is absolutely on schedule. > But I don't exclude he may have been delayed just recently on vol.4 I actually don't remember a schedule. Agreed, it is a ridiculously low price :-) Is he on schedule? I don't know, but volumes 1, 2, and 3 came out a long time ago, then there was a revision to volume 2, then some time passed, then there was an Internet preprint of volume 4, and now after a long time, I looked on Amazon and found there is a print version of volume 4 and a volume 4b, and ... Long live Donald Knuth! For a fun excursion: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Complexity_of_Songs He also talks about knitting formulas in the preface to one or more of the existing volumes. Peter Olson ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Why Debian 8 Pinning is (or isn't) pointless
> On July 16, 2016 at 8:51 AM Simon Hobson <li...@thehobsons.co.uk> wrote:
[...]
> > Duct tape, actually. It's like the Force. It has a light side and a
> > dark side, and it holds the universe together.
> >
> > Duct tape is cool.
>
> Over here, the common term is gaffer tape. Duct tape is a common term as
> well, and of course the commercial product playing on the homophone (if I go
> the right word) with Duck Tape
Gaffer tape and {duct|duck} tape are different products. Gaffer tape is less
adhesive and is designed to be removed easily. It is more expensive :-) If
you have ever used the other tape to secure cables to the floor and then
uprooted those cables when tearing down, you will know the misery of trying to
remove the other kind of tape now wrapped seamlessly around the cable.
Peter Olson
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Re: [DNG] C Obfuscated code: a virtue or a vice?
> On July 15, 2016 at 5:12 AM Jaromil <jaro...@dyne.org> wrote: > > On Fri, 15 Jul 2016, Peter Olson wrote: > > > You misunderstand what the IOCCC is about. It's a game. Nobody > > trying to write useful code will do anything like what IOCCC writes. > > well, I even argue is software-art :^) back 15 years ago I facilitated > the inclusion of some IOCCC entries in this exibition originally shown > at the MAK in Frankfurt, which then went pretty much around the world > http://www.digitalcraft.org/iloveyou/c_code.htm > > but yes, its definitely not polite nor useful to obfuscate code that > people uses. to the contrary, I think literate programming is the way I'm a fan of Donald Knuth as well. My funny story is that when I was in college, I got an offer from Addison-Wesley to preorder the seven volume set "The Art of Computer Programming" for the low. low price of $119. It's now more than 40 years later and volumes 5, 6, and 7 are still missing :-) I'm glad I didn't take the offer :) On the other hand it is terrifically cool that he got so frustrated with the mechanics of typesetting that he developed TeX. Peter Olson ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] C Obfuscated code: a virtue or a vice?
> On July 15, 2016 at 1:23 AM Edward Bartolo <edb...@gmail.com> wrote: > The International Obfuscated C Code Contest, IOCCC was started by the > "masters" and "pioneers" in C. This is a "competition" for those who > take pride in compressing code to the point of making it practically > unreadable. > > The following is a program submitted to IOCCC: > http://www.ioccc.org/2015/dogon/prog.c > At first, I was tempted to follow the path of writing obfuscated code, > but thinking about it, with todays huge computers, it simple doesn't > make sense to write difficult to read code. In the past there was an > advantage of writing such code that saved on code size as RAM size was > only a few kilobytes but definitely not today. You misunderstand what the IOCCC is about. It's a game. Nobody trying to write useful code will do anything like what IOCCC writes. > Here on this mailing list, I am noticing that being committed to write > legible code, is interpreted as an inherent lack of coding ability. I doubt you will find anyone at all on this list who criticizes legible code. > In > my case, irrespective of the attacks by some, and the fact that when I > submitted functional code nobody commented about it, I did. I made two suggestions: 1) Don't use bare semicolons in while/for constructs. Use the continue statement instead. 2) when comparing to a literal (or a constant expression), put the literal on the left hand side of the boolean: if (value = literal) stuff; when it is intended if (value == literal) stuff; You can make this mistake, the compiler won't alert you, and you may spend hours trying to figure out what is wrong. Instead do it like this: if (literal == value) stuff; and not if (literal = value) stuff; which the compiler will flag as an error. The compiler is your friend, if you help it a bit. Peter Olson > those who are attacking are only interested in making disguised > personal attacks to dissuade me from helping in the project. The > answer to these people is: I will continue to move on irrespective of > your attacks. > > Edward > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Studying C as told. (For help)
> On July 8, 2016 at 12:26 AM Edward Bartolo <edb...@gmail.com> wrote: > Since any grammar item has boundaries it makes sense for a syntax > checker to pass boundaries to syntax checking functions. The first > step would be to check the existence of an opening bracket and a > closing bracket. If more brackets follow the process should be > repeated. What happens with a = b((7, c[3)]) Peter Olson ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] OT: Algol w, 68, Pascal, Ada
> On July 5, 2016 at 4:44 AM Didier Kryn <k...@in2p3.fr> wrote: [...] > > Ada resembled Pascal syntactically, but had very different semantics. > > For one thing, it was type-safe. Pascal wasn't. I'm not sure > > I'd really call it a descendant. > > > > > Cheers Hendrik. You know this history much better than me. > > So let's say these languages share a few typical features: > instructions go across lines and they terminate with ';' (introduced by > Algol60 I think), they use ':=' for the assignment instruction, they use > the same words to denote basic types (Boolean, Integer, Natural), and > they're wordy. > > Didier An anecdote about Niklaus Wirth: He said he was once asked how to pronounce his name, and replied, "If you call me by name, it is Neeklaws Veert, but if you call me by value, it is Nickle's Worth". Peter Olson ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Studying C as told. (For help)
> On June 24, 2016 at 12:45 PM Albert van der Horst <alb...@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> > wrote: [...] > Sorry, but that means your brain is not wired correctly to recognize > == as the symmetric operation that it is. > Would you be equally fuzzy about > mask = 0x42 & abc; > versus > mask = abc & 0x42; > ? I'm perfectly clear about == but the problem I am trying to avoid is typing = when I meant == and having the compiler dutifully obey my clear instructions. Rainer says modern compilers issue warning about this (and I have improved my code on several occasions by reacting to gcc's warnings about the precedence of & and | for which the compiler is actually doing what I intended, but it was not quite as clear in the source code). Back in the days, I was bitten multiple times by the == vs. = typo. I learned my lesson. The product of programming is the source code. The executable is a side-effect. > > > > So, program in Algol 60/ Pascal/ Modula/ Oberon or "take your := and > > shove it". The world has moved on. > > Not using := but = instead is one of the biggest mistakes in c. > With Java C++ inheriting it, even Python couldn't get away from it. > With moving on you mean probably that we must accept that this mistake > can never be fixed. I for me don't give up hope. As recently as a year ago I had to use a proprietary robot programming language which used := and I hated it :-) The whole idea of := or assignment in general is suspect. Use a functional programming language like Scheme/LISP, Haskell, or OCAML instead. > Not trying to start a flamewar. Just demonstrating that there is a > different opinion possible regards this. :-) Peter Olson ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Studying C as told. (For help)
On 2016-06-24 12:17, Rainer Weikusat wrote:
> Peter Olson <pe...@peabo.com> writes:
>>> On June 23, 2016 at 10:48 AM Edward Bartolo <edb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> if (count > 0)
>>> while(putchar(' ') && --count);
>>
>> I strongly recommend using the continue statement here:
>>
>> while(putchar(' ') && --count) continue;
>
> I and I strongly recommend against it. The continue has absolutely no
> meaning here which means its only conceivable effect is to puzzle the
> reader. Insofar inline documentation is desired, the way to include it
> are comments, not technically functionless statements at whose intention
> can only be guessed at. Better yet, use a sensible loop:
>
> if (count > 0) while (putchar(' ') && --count);
I could have criticized Edward for mixing the boolean with the action, but that
was not my point.
The issue is coding style. There are coding styles which reduce the likelihood
of writing bad code, and they should be encouraged. The bare semicolon ->
continue is one of them. It has nothing at all to do with what the compiler
does. Case in point, don't do i[a] for a[i] even though the compiler treats
them identically.
Code is written once (well, maybe more like 1.2 times), but it is read by N >>
1. Encourage clarity.
No reader who is accustomed to seeing the continue statement will be puzzled by
it.
>> Another habit I have is to avoid a statement like:
>>
>> if (abc == 42)
>>
>> and write it as
>>
>> if (42 == abc)
>>
>> instead.
>
> That's a habit of many people who either believe to be master yoda
> ('Your sister she is') or who believe their heart-felt support for
> Nikolaus Wirth is so important that it trumps writing clear code.
>
> - compilers usually warn about = in conditions
Hendrik has the edge on me. I didn't learn C until around 1980, when the
predominant C compilers I had access to were Whitesmiths C on VAX/VMS and
Lattice C for MSDOS (I guess a little later than 1980 :-)
In any case, having good programming habits avoids the time sink of having to
fix compiler warning message if they even exist.
I am a fan of -Wall and fixing warnings at the earliest opportunity.
> - this is an extremely uncommon error
So uncommon that I developed my good programming habit more than 30 years ago.
> - the inversion doesn't help when both operands are l-values
This is not a problem obviously, you can equally well write it either way. Do
you have a counterexample?
> So, program in Algol 60/ Pascal/ Modula/ Oberon or "take your := and
> shove it". The world has moved on.
Can I download your compiler that fixes all my mistakes? I could really use
such a tool.
Peter Olson
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Re: [DNG] Studying C as told. (For help)
> On June 23, 2016 at 10:48 AM Edward Bartolo <edb...@gmail.com> wrote:
> if (count > 0)
> while(putchar(' ') && --count);
I strongly recommend using the continue statement here:
while(putchar(' ') && --count) continue;
The reason is that the semicolon by itself is almost unnoticeable and you can
create a difficult to understand malfunction if you don't notice you forgot to
type it.
Another habit I have is to avoid a statement like:
if (abc == 42)
and write it as
if (42 == abc)
instead. The compiler will issue an error message if you type only one = in
the latter form, whereas the first form will happily execute by setting abc to
42 and always taking the true clause.
Peter Olson
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Re: [DNG] Studying C as told. (For help)
> On June 20, 2016 at 10:37 AM Edward Bartolo <edb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On page Page 34 Exercise 1-9
> "Write a program to copy its input to its output, replacing each
> string of blanks one ore more blanks by a single blank."
>
> I wrote the following, tested it, and it seems to work, but I think it is
> too complicated. Any suggestions?
Here's another way to do it:
/*
* K exercise
*
* Replace multiple blanks with single blank
*/
#include
#include
#include
static
int
filter (void)
{
int ch = getchar ();/* all the logic is here */
if (EOF != ch)
{
putchar (ch);
if (' ' == ch)
for (;;)
{
ch = getchar ();
if (' ' != ch)
{
if (EOF != ch)
putchar (ch);
break;
}
}
}
return ch;
}
static
int
checkError (FILE * fp, const char *arg)
{
if (ferror (fp))
{
const char *pgmName = strrchr (arg, '/');
if (pgmName)
pgmName++;/* get beyond the slash */
else
pgmName = arg;
fprintf (stderr, "%s: I/O error: %s\n", pgmName, strerror (errno));
return 1;
}
return 0;
}
int
main (int argc, char **argv)
{
while (EOF != filter ())
continue; /* this version encodes state in program structure */
if (checkError (stdin, argv[0]))
return 1; /* this version checks for errors */
if (checkError (stdout, argv[0]))
return 1; /* I didn't actually reproduce this error, it is hard
to test */
return 0;
}
I hope this survives line wrapping :-)
Peter Olson
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Re: [DNG] package request
> On June 14, 2016 at 1:43 AM Irrwahn <irrw...@freenet.de> wrote: > > On Tue, 14 Jun 2016 00:37:59 -0400 (EDT), Peter Olson wrote: > > [About possible branding issues for a hypothetical > future Pale Moon package in De(vu|bi)an.] > > > This is why there is Iceweasel instead of Firefox. > > Not anymore. It's plain "firefox" from Ascii (=Stretch) on. Well, I'm on Devuan Jessie. In Ascii, what are you really running? In Devuan Jessie, if I type firefox at the command prompt, it starts Iceweasel. Peter Olson ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] package request
> On June 13, 2016 at 9:57 PM Steve Litt <sl...@troubleshooters.com> wrote: > > Only issue with pale moon is the branding: > > https://www.palemoon.org/branding.shtml > > > > Not sure if that's compatible with the main repo, maybe it needs > > rebranding first? > Yeah, just call it Bright Star, and swap the pale moon graphic with a > beaming star. Then write the author, let him know what you did, and let > him know that if he'd like the publicity benefit of having a major > distro package Palemoon as Palemoon, he can write Devuan an official > letter giving us permanent non-exclusive right to use the name and > graphic, and we'll be glad to accommodate him with the publicity. +10 I have an issue though with the non-exclusive right: it means anyone downstream from us has to drop the package or renegotiate. This is why there is Iceweasel instead of Firefox. Ask PM's maintainer what he really wants. It's work, but a systematic rebranding of Palemoon with another theme (not Bright Star :-) might be another idea. PM has already done it for Firefox, so it should be easy to figure out what to do. My vote: Europa. One of the coolest moons in the solar system. apt-cache search europa returns nothing. > By the way, thanks to emninger's post, I've been using Palemoon as my > main browser for almost a week, and it's head and shoulders better than > ALL the rest. It's less bloaty than the other XUL browsers, and it's > more stable than the webkit based browsers. My thanks also, I have been using it too. Peter Olson ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] resolved
> On June 7, 2016 at 5:28 PM KatolaZ <kato...@freaknet.org> wrote: [...] > And my point is that we already have a powerful weapon to use against > any power that wants to give a too-tight-hug to the free software > community, and that weapon is called *copyleft* (not RMS, which would > be quite a cumbersome weapon to wield anyway, given the mass involved > :)). I think my mass might be greater than RMS's, but I wouldn't qualify as a weapon. RMS sets a standard of discourse about software freedom. Copyleft is one instance of this, but he continues to illustrate issues that we might like to be concerned about. Peter Olson ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Request for Removal of slim package from Devuan
> On May 29, 2016 at 2:11 PM Steve Litt <sl...@troubleshooters.com> wrote: [...] > I use grep every day. How often is grep modified? Most recently on April 22 of this year. It was a bug fix release. There is a whole screen full of commits for the year 2016 in http://git.sv.gnu.org/gitweb/?p=grep.git;a=shortlog;h=v2.25 Actually, it surprised me too :-) > You're right. If a program is simple enough to finally get all the bugs > out of it, that's the golden age of that program. > > SteveT I think in this case that the evolution of the OS base is forcing evolution of programs like grep because now they have to support Unicode and who knows what else? Peter Olson ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Request for Removal of slim package from Devuan
> On May 29, 2016 at 10:46 AM Edward Bartolo <edb...@gmail.com> wrote: > [...] > I contest the idea that software has to be continuously developed. > Eventually, proper development stop like what happens with a building. > Then, maintenance follows. This means as long as software has bug > fixes (maintenance), there would be no justified reason not to use it. I would go a little further and suggest that the impetus to improve some software packages has had them improved to the point where they no longer work as well. In the proprietary world it is the feature check box syndrome. Can't just leave a good working application alone, it has to have more check boxes checked that all its possible competitors. It totally conflicts with the idea of 'do one thing and do it well'. In the free software world, I'm not sure what drives this. There may still be some idea of market dominance. Ours is the best distro? I'm really puzzled. I suppose that free software desktop environments for ordinary people seem to adopt UX ideas from the proprietary world with the idea that it makes the free software environments easy to adapt to. That doesn't mean these are UX ideas that have merit. Peter Olson ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] sudo or su?
> On May 22, 2016 at 4:49 PM "R. W. Rodolico" <r...@dailydata.net> wrote: > > The big thing for me about Ubuntu, etc... is not the fact they use sudo > a lot, it is that by default they do not allow root login at all. If the > /home partition has problems, you must login as a user, then sudo to > root, then attempt to dismount /home and work on it, which will not work > since /home has files open (since you logged in as a user with a home > directory in /home). So, I have to boot off some other media to do > repair work on /home (or fix the login) > > sudo vs su is an interesting decision to make, but not allowing root > login is a matter of too much security to get your job done. Or you can sudo, edit /etc/passwd to change your login directory temporarily to something not in /home, logout, and log back in using the temporary directory. Peter Olson ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] hashtag retarded
> On May 10, 2016 at 1:01 AM Edward Bartolo <edb...@gmail.com> wrote: [..] > The solution to block off all trolls is easy especially for system > administrators. Make posting to the mailing list only accessible to > members that are registered in a member list. Needless to state the > obvious, control membership. For instance, a member would require > sponsorship from existing members or from some other important > contributor in the project like jaromil. You are trying to block trolls. That's a good idea, except it doesn't work. I think it's not really important compared to all of us having a place to talk. > The idea of having an open mailing list is clearly failing to give a > good signal to noise ratio which can be corrected. Make the resulting > mailing list publicly readable BUT do not make membership automatic. I don't have a problem with the OT or trolling messages here. > Some may argue this is the strategy adopted by enemies of init > freedom, which may be correct. However, sometimes one has to adopt an > adversary's strategy if it proves to be the only possible of way > solution. > > Edward Don't stoop to the adversary. Peter Olson ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] booting old system on a different partition
So, I installed the Devuan beta a few days ago and it is great, rather it almost mostly works. I probably need an audio driver installed. I want to see what the old system had installed. So I cleared out another partition and moved the backup of my Debian 8.3 onto it. Ran update-grub, which found the backup in its new location. But, when I try to boot it grub is confused and is pinned to the old UUID of the root filesystem. (I have already updated /etc/fstab in the restored backup, but it is not even getting that far.) It just dumps me into busybox saying it can't find the root fs. Gotta love grub, which is useful only when nothing is wrong :-) Any advice about how to proceed? Peter Olson ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Why I was away.
> On May 5, 2016 at 12:53 PM Edward Bartolo <edb...@gmail.com> wrote: [...] > Some may think I am insane, but sometimes even the company of a four > legged friend can be beneficial. > > Edward And it runs another OS which is free of systemd :-) Peter Olson ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] OpenRC and Devuan
> On May 3, 2016 at 11:43 PM Joel Roth <jo...@pobox.com> wrote: [...] > Interesting, I thought /sbin was historically for statically > linked executables needed at boot time, or for system > recovery. The /sbin and /usr/sbin are analogous to /bin and /usr/sbin but they contain programs for administrative purposes such as adduser which require privileges and are not needed by user logins or might not be expected for ordinary user access. On some distros ifconfig is in one of these and isn't visible to the user, even though it might be useful. Peter Olson ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Change netman into another name.
> On February 6, 2016 at 12:30 PM Edward Bartolo <edb...@gmail.com> wrote: > [snip] > However, my ethical principles do not permit me to name the project > after myself. I am a servant here, therefore I cannot consider myself I would nominate netservant as the name, but alas, it has already been taken. It seems to me that focusing on 'net' is a red herring. The name doesn't really have to map to the function. The name should be memorable once it is discovered, which includes punning. That encourages word-of-mouth propagation. I suggest people look at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fictional_butlers for some ideas. Peter Olson ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Icerbergs aren't small just because they're mostly underwater
> On January 26, 2016 at 2:30 PM Rainer Weikusat > <rainerweiku...@virginmedia.com> wrote: > > Peter Olson <pe...@peabo.com> writes: > >> On January 25, 2016 at 5:54 PM Rainer Weikusat > >> <rainerweiku...@virginmedia.com> wrote: > > > > [...] > > > >> A related but IMHO more interesting set of questions could be: > > [..] > > > It must be trivial crap because nobody ever made a programming error parsing > > path names when they rolled their own routines for it. > > It's trivial because its about 3 or 4 lines of code, at least for a > reasonable implementation. That's a property of the code and not one of > hypothetical people who could be writing code. Eg, in order to write > code, one has to learn to write first and this is anything but trivial > as it needs years of practice. > > > Also: Windows and Mac path names follow different rules. > > The (fairly recently introduced) BSD basename library function (whose > semantics > are quite different > from the semantics of the one I posted) > doesn't deal with anything but UNIX(*) pathnames. How quite different? I just looked at Windows implementation of basename and note that it avoids the ".ext" of the file. Thanks, Windows :-) > Programs I write as part of my slowly growing set of "tools usable for > starting/ manageing processes" certainly don't have to deal with > "Windows and Mac path names", either. I try to avoid non-UNIX(*) environments as well, but if I am serious about free software I should take portability into account where I can. > > Use the libraries. > > "Use libraries insofar you consider them useful." And a library > implementation of 'basename' is not something I'd consider useful, > especially when using it portably would require more code than not using > it (the string would need to be copied, including handling errors in > that, and the result would need to be copied, including handling errors > in that, and all the weird special cases someone considered sensible > would need to be dealt with one by one in order to achieve what I wanted > to achieve and even then, there'd be differences). This patch illustrates the rathole of compatibility across OS implementations: https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/guile-devel/2014-07/msg00012.html > it (the string would need to be copied, including handling errors in Living on the edge? Most parsing of path names occurs at main(), but I hope you won't run out of memory in the middle of a long job. After all, alloca always works :-; Peter Olson ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Icerbergs aren't small just because they're mostly underwater
> On January 25, 2016 at 5:54 PM Rainer Weikusat > <rainerweiku...@virginmedia.com> wrote: [...] > A related but IMHO more interesting set of questions could be: > > 1. Should every trivial crap $someone ever implemented since 1978 end up >in general purpose library just because $someone happend to have to >power to put it into it? > > 2. Should people be required to memoize every trivial crap $someone ever >implemented since 1978 just because that someone happened to have to >power to ...? > > 3. Should people who consider themselves Very Superior Entities because >the have memoized every trivial crap $someone ever ... and so on, be >taken as seriously as they continuously demand? It must be trivial crap because nobody ever made a programming error parsing path names when they rolled their own routines for it. Also: Windows and Mac path names follow different rules. Use the libraries. I actually like the example of Python's os.path library, which implements a unified set of portable routines for manipulating path names. Peter Olson Off topic P.S.: memoize means something different from memorize, which you clearly meant. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Icerbergs aren't small just because they're mostly underwater (was: "Common knowledge?"-question)
> On January 25, 2016 at 7:40 AM KatolaZ <kato...@freaknet.org> wrote:
>
>
> On Mon, Jan 25, 2016 at 12:23:01PM +, Rainer Weikusat wrote:
> > KatolaZ <kato...@freaknet.org> writes:
> >
> > [...]
[...]
> > The program also contains a very nice example of why the post-increment
> > operators is useful (and I means 'useful', not 'common because of
> > mindless copying of example code'):
> >
> > static char const *get_name(char const *arg0)
> > {
> > char const *n, *r;
> >
> > n = r = arg0;
> > while (*r) if (*r++ == '/') n = r;
> > return n;
> > }
>
> That's pretty straight-forward C-programming, IMHO, but I agree that
> it could be seen as interesting by a mor^H^H^Hstudent who approaches C
> for the first time.
>
> Peace, love and hacking.
>
> KatolaZ
This also brings up the question of whether you should roll your own get_name or
use basename(3) which already does the same thing except in some edge cases.
It's easier for the student to understand the code if it is implemented as
get_name, but the student ought to learn about dirname and basename pretty early
in their study.
Peter Olson
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Re: [DNG] "Common knowledge?"-question
> On January 23, 2016 at 1:36 PM Rainer Weikusat > <rainerweiku...@virginmedia.com> wrote: > > Peter Olson <pe...@peabo.com> writes: > 5>> On January 22, 2016 at 4:34 PM Rainer Weikusat > <rainerweiku...@virginmedia.com> wrote: > > [...] > > >> p = buf = alloca(total); > > [...] > > > the failure mode of alloca is SIGSEGV or some other malfunction and > > there is no way to test for it > > It's supposed to allocate memory in the current stack frame which will > work unless the stack has already grown to the limit. From man7.org/linux/man-pages/man3/alloca.3.html section BUGS: There is no error indication if the stack frame cannot be extended. (However, after a failed allocation, the program is likely to receive a SIGSEGV signal if it attempts to access the unallocated space.) I have never been a fan of alloca though it obviously _can_ be used safely with a little care. The hazard of passing a very long string by accident is what makes it unsafe. In this case, with short enough strings it is no more hazardous than a recursion that is too deep. Peter Olson ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] "Common knowledge?"-question
> On January 22, 2016 at 4:34 PM Rainer Weikusat
> <rainerweiku...@virginmedia.com> wrote:
>
> Can the effect of the following C function
>
> static void print_start(char const *name, char const *what)
> {
> char *buf, *p;
> unsigned name_len, what_len, total;
>
> name_len = strlen(name);
> what_len = strlen(what);
> total = name_len + what_len + 3;
>
> p = buf = alloca(total);
> memcpy(p, name, name_len);
> p += name_len;
> *p++ = ' ';
> memcpy(p, what, what_len);
> p += what_len;
> *p++ = ':';
> *p = ' ';
>
> *buf &= ~0x20;
>
> Write(2, buf, total);
> }
>
> be considered obvious or should it rather get an explanation?
>
> An ASCII lowercase letter can be turned into the corresponding uppercase
> letter by clearing the sixth bit.
I'm unhappy for two reasons:
the failure mode of alloca is SIGSEGV or some other malfunction and there is
no way to test for it
the *buf &= ~0x20; breaks for UTF8 strings.
Nevermind that the function implicitly references stderr except when it doesn't.
Peter Olson
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Re: [DNG] Debianising my uploaded version of netman.
> On December 17, 2015 at 2:16 AM Edward Bartolo <edb...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > No matter what you believe about this, overriding a command with itself > > is a pointless exercise. dh_auto_clean will be invoked as part of the > > 'dh clean' sequence, cf > > Please, refrain from using offensive and vulgar expressions. 'cf' is > "complete fuck" which implies that my work is a total loss, and that > is humiliating, demotivating and insolent. It probably doesn't mean that. From Wikipedia: "The abbreviation cf. derives from the Latin verb conferre, while in English it is commonly read as "compare". Relevant direct translations of the latin verb include "discuss/debate/confer," "oppose," and "pit/match against each other."[1] The abbreviation advises readers to consult other material, usually for the purpose of drawing a contrast. The abbreviation cf is sometimes mistakenly used to mean see also." Usually it written differently ... "blah, blah, blah, cf. this other thing" However, other Latin abbreviations are used this way, cf. "q.v", "op cit", and "ibid". Peter Olson ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] An abrupt end to Debian Live CD version?
> On November 13, 2015 at 11:05 AM Steve Litt <sl...@troubleshooters.com> wrote: > > On Thu, 12 Nov 2015 21:23:22 -0500 > Miles Fidelman <mfidel...@meetinghouse.net> wrote: > > > > On 11/12/15 1:54 PM, Steve Litt wrote: > > > On Thu, 12 Nov 2015 16:57:19 +0300 > > > Mitt Green <mitt_gr...@yahoo.com> wrote: > > > > > > > "Greybeards" and "neckbeards" are characterizations whose > > > connotation is deliberately "people stuck in their ways, afraid of > > > change, no longer relevant, no longer innovating." This has > > > *especially* come to the forefront during the systemd foolishness. [snip] > OK, I understand that logic. So let me rephrase... > > The words "greybeard" and "neckbeard" are used, by systemd fanboys, to > strawman the conversation away from monolithic entanglement, [snip] > Proud or not, you don't want to assist the systemd marketeers in > shutting down discussion about systemd's architecture, do you? "discussion about systemd's architecture" I have to smile ... what discussion? :-( I wonder if Lennart's birth day occurred in positive time() or negative time() ? Peter Olson (grey going on white) ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] [announce] s6-rc, a s6-based service manager for Unix systems
> On September 23, 2015 at 5:44 PM Laurent Bercot <ska-de...@skarnet.org> wrote: > > >> if you can confirm the plan of releasing s6-rc within september > > I confirm it. > > And, lo and behold, I'm on schedule for once. > s6-rc-0.0.1.0 is out. Expubident! Peter Olson ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] Messages from the future (Was: Re: [DN Offlist G] netman GIT project)
> On February 24, 2032 at 3:32 PM aitor_czr <aitor_...@gnuinos.org> wrote: Your last few messages have had Date: lines far in the future. Check your clock! Peter Olson ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Programming languages for netman?
> On September 12, 2015 at 10:36 PM Hendrik Boom <hend...@topoi.pooq.com> wrote: > > On Sun, Sep 13, 2015 at 01:49:57AM +0200, aitor_czr wrote: > > It was not Pascal the successor of Modula? > > Pascal cne after Algol W. Modula came after Pascal. Modula 2 came > after Modula. Oberon came after Modula 2. All these languages were > designed by Niklaus Wirth. Niklaus Wirth has lamented that, whereas Europeans pronounce his name correctly (Ni-klows Virt), Americans invariably mangle it into (Nick-les Worth). Which is to say that Europeans call him by name, but Americans call him by value. Sorry, couldn't help myself :-) Peter Olson ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Debugging netman auto-connect.
> On September 11, 2015 at 2:24 PM aitor_czr <aitor_...@gnuinos.org> wrote: > > No! > > Only square matrices can have a determinant. > > I am not Roger Penrose. I am a hooligan of *Richard Feynman* > and *Lev Davidovick Landau* (vintage). Perhaps also with some variation *Joseph-Louis Lagrange* :-) Peter Olson ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Linux-related critique
On August 18, 2015 at 2:23 PM Steve Litt sl...@troubleshooters.com wrote: Rainer --- Why respond to that guy. His very first post on our mailing list, and it's nothing but word salad. SteveT I have this image in mind that word salad is what trolls eat, except that I've got it wrong. They regurgitate :-) Peter Olson ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] many packages VS. one package, was: Re: dng@lists.dyne.org
On July 17, 2015 at 11:38 PM Gregory Nowak g...@gregn.net wrote: On Fri, Jul 17, 2015 at 08:16:06PM -0700, James Powell wrote: Some might ask, Why not just one simple package? That's where Devuan can bring packaging sanity in as well. megabyte for example. Granted, this may not be the best example, but it does illustrate I think the reasons for smaller multiple packages VS. one big package. NOT DEVUAN 1.0 ... I agree. Debian accommodates the lean server install with just the binaries and also allows selective documentation install and development and debugging installs. My principal complaint is with 'apt cache search' which is a low level tool that doesn't expose any of the structure of the repository. Many times I want to install a package I know the name of (approximately) and I have to read or grep through hundreds of search results for related packages that have nothing to do with installing (or even identifying by name) the package I want, not to mention how complete the doc/devel/debug environment I might like. /rant Peter Olson ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes
On July 15, 2015 at 3:35 AM Didier Kryn k...@in2p3.fr wrote: Le 15/07/2015 04:16, Go Linux a écrit : I never could figure out vim but can find my way around nano. :) golinux Same for me. Was never able to make the slightest change to a file with vi :-( I have made horrendous changes with vi, quite simply, which had to be repaired by source code control :-) :-( Well, I probably could have done that with any other of multiple editors. Peter Olson ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] straw poll, non-free firmware for installers
On June 3, 2015 at 9:33 PM John Morris jmor...@beau.org wrote: On Thu, 2015-06-04 at 02:52 +0200, Adam Borowski wrote: On Wed, Jun 03, 2015 at 06:18:37PM -0500, John Morris wrote: Non-free software: NO, Firmware: YES. So ixnay on things like the Nvidia drivers but yes on blobs. The reasoning on where to draw the line is pretty clear cut. How exactly firmware is not software? Both are strings of bits encoding commands for a processor living in silicon you own. So if the manufacturer puts the same firmware in an eeprom it isn't a problem? Or the BIOS itself? Are you running a Free BIOS? Do YOU know what your ACPI BIOS is doing right now? How about the CPU, ... ... In a more perfect world I'd agree that all that stuff should be open too, but it ain't, it ain't going to be. RMS managed to find -one- oddball machine that meets his definition of Free, if the vendor of that machine tried to sell them on the open market outside China they would find few takers. Bunnie's Novena 'Open Laptop' has blobs and closed 3d video drivers as well. Good luck tilting at this windmill. Where we can and should draw the line is in the kernel's address space. Blobs loaded into the kernel make the entire system untrustworthy and unmaintainable in ways a firmware blob loaded at initialization into an entirely different microcontroller managing WiFi doesn't. Not to mention that for regulatory reasons most vendors just aren't going to discuss the point with us. The situation stinks but changing it is beyond our current capabilities. For some years RMS used a Lemote Yeeloong notebook with a 10 inch screen (the oddball machine you were referring to). Several years ago the continuing availability of that machine became doubtful. Around the same time it was discovered that a certain model of Thinkpad could be corebooted and had acceptable freeness, so he switched to that. Earlier this year another computer was brought on the market: http://www.fsf.org/resources/hw/endorsement/gluglug (I don't know if RMS is using this one or not). http://www.fsf.org/ryf and https://www.h-node.org/ are useful resources for finding hardware supported by free software distributions. Last I heard, RMS applies the following criterion to firmware: if the user can't change it, it doesn't have to be examined for freeness. So, the power controller on the Yeeloong was exempt because it can't be changed. But the Raspberry Pi relies on a video controller blob which is loaded at boot time and won't function without it. So it is not free because the blob could in principle be changed. I don't know what he thinks about chips which can be programmed using JTAG but which don't get firmware loaded at run time. And as far as FPGAs in general are concerned I don't know of any which can be programmed without the aid of proprietary software tools and secret data stream formats. I would like to be proven wrong about this. Recently I heard about Cubic ( http://cubicboard.org/ ) and OpenCores ( http://opencores.org/ ) has been around for a while. Peter Olson ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] straw poll, non-free firmware for installers
On June 3, 2015 at 7:39 AM Adam Borowski kilob...@angband.pl wrote: On Wed, Jun 03, 2015 at 08:37:22PM +1200, Daniel Reurich wrote: I'd like a straw poll on whether we should include non-free firmware in our installers by default. If we were ok with unmodifiable undebuggable unfixable software, we'd be using Windows. +1 Peter Olson (apologies if this duplicates a reply sent from the wrong email address which might pass moderator approval) ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] straw poll, non-free firmware for installers
On June 3, 2015 at 5:37 PM Steve Litt sl...@troubleshooters.com wrote: This is exactly my preference too. Let me easily choose at install time. Also, have the nonfree stuff in its own repository so if I include the nonfree stuff I can just add it to my sources.list. Although I rank among the purists, I could go along with this idea: Two ISO/repo configurations. One which is free. The other which works if the first doesn't. Although I am a purist, I am already compromised by needing to work in CAD/CAM environments which are only available in Windows, so I recognize a problem in general. But I don't want to make it easy for people who could install fine with the free installation to select the other one just in case. There is possibly an opportunity to gather information about what cases don't work with the free download. Peter Olson ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] [dng] vdev status updates
On May 3, 2015 at 3:09 PM Hendrik Boom hend...@topoi.pooq.com wrote: On Sun, May 03, 2015 at 06:37:06PM +0200, Joerg Reisenweber wrote: Even in your dream distro without any path, don't tell me you won't *have* *to* come up with another concept for attaching meta info alternative to path names, and then you need to update that instead of moving files Taken to an extreme, that might even be a useful way of running a computer -- files are identified *only* by metadata. Has anyone ever tried something like this? The BeOS file system used a database-centric approach that might qualify. Here's a starting point if you are interested in learning more about it: http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2010/06/02/the-beos-filesystem/ Peter Olson ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] rumors on RMS about systemd at libreplanet
On March 22, 2015 at 6:29 AM Jaromil jaro...@dyne.org wrote: On Sat, 21 Mar 2015, Peter Olson wrote: RMS didn't call me a troll, he answered the question. Somebody else took it upon himself to refer to the question as trolling. I haven't decided yet whether to speak to that person tomorrow about it. Stefano refused my definition of bullying, which indeed may be debated. Stefano and I had an amicable conversation about the issue and I understand his point of view. As far as bullying goes, I am older than RMS, so I am not easily bullied by anyone. I'm OK with the situation as it stands now. I'm unhappy that RMS didn't have an opinion to share, but it's his prerogative. Peter Olson ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] rumors on RMS about systemd at libreplanet
On March 21, 2015 at 11:34 AM Jaromil jaro...@dyne.org wrote: re all, perhaps interesting to perceive the atmosphere, no trolling intended and please consider we shall not fight, rather seek undersanding and claim respect and the right to have different opinions than the majority. At Libreplanet (the GNU/FSF conference) today someone (who?? thanks for that!) asked RMS about what he thinks of systemd. Few of us can afford to be there however from a twit by FSF member John Sullivan I apprehend the QA: That was me. I had previously searched the Web (and specifically the fsf.org/gnu.org sites) for anything he might have said about it and came up blank. I also asked one of the FSF campaigns people a week or so back about it and they didn't know of any statement he had made. RMS has a lot of opinions about things other than free software, so it occurs to me that he might have thought of some ethical concerns along the lines of what we have talked about here, but I was not about the get into any sort of argument with him about it. _That_ would be trolling. I stepped away from the microphone as soon as he answered. @johns_FSF RMS, do you have an opinion about systemd? No. I know it's free software, so you can make your own opinion about it. #lp2015 The exact quote is Do you have an opinion about the prevalence of systemd in most distributions? Peter Olson follows up Stefano Zacchiroli (former Debian leader and present board member of OSI): @zacchiro achievement unlocked: #systemd troll brilliantly averted by rms during #libreplanet keynote a statement by a renown public speaker that clearly leads the public perception of someone making a question to RMS about systemd as being automatically a troll, just for the fact such a question is being asked. I've replied myself, via the @DevuanOrg twit account: is asking a question about #systemd now considered trolling? wow. #minculpop also later asking John: did someone explained how #Hurd is affected? https://www.gnu.org/software/hurd/open_issues/systemd.html … ...and uclibc etc. FWIW (no trolling intended) and I'm serious: I'd like to hear the *opinion* (which we are all free to have) of the GNU leaders on these matters, considering the aforementioned implications, which I'm not sure RMS has acknowledged. I understand perfectly RMS answer above which is rather sane: he is separating the power of his role in that particular moment (setting the ethical bar on free software for people listening) with the fact we can all have opinions. This is something a good leader should do, rather than bully somoene for making an uncomfortable question What I want to make here is an exortation to everyone reading: if we really think something needs to be done about systemd, please do your best in putting forward your opinion, avoiding to impose it or to aggressively wave it in front of everyone. If bullied please stand firmly by the right you have to have a different opinion and to debate it in the public. I think we need to state this because what Stefano and others are doing in this occasion is bullying people with different opinions, labeling them as trolls (and therefore enemies of the community) and ultimately denying there can even be a debate about systemd, spreading fear in anyone willing to debate it. I think this is totally unacceptable for a free society, that's why I label it as MinCulPop attitude, which ultimately was the fascist authority which established what can be debated, something Italians remember very well: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ministry_of_Popular_Culture ciao -- Jaromil, Dyne.org Free Software Foundry (est. 2000) We are free to share code and we code to share freedom Web: https://j.dyne.org Contact: https://j.dyne.org/c.vcf GPG: 6113 D89C A825 C5CE DD02 C872 73B3 5DA5 4ACB 7D10 Confidential communications: https://keybase.io/jaromil ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Devuan commitments - will trade-off be applied?
On March 21, 2015 at 12:25 PM Miles Fidelman mfidel...@meetinghouse.net wrote: Perhaps it's time to add something along the lines of the freedom to install software without it taking over your machine (obviously this needs work, or we'd it would eliminate things like the kernel, file system, etc.). Miles Fidelman Freedom 0 probably already covers this. The freedom to run a program, as you wish, includes the freedom not to run the program, if that is what you wish. Peter Olson ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] rumors on RMS about systemd at libreplanet
On March 21, 2015 at 6:36 PM Robert Storey robert.sto...@gmail.com wrote: Hopefully, it's just a rumor, though it sounds real. Indeed, I've been wondering why RMS hasn't commented on systemd long ago when it became obvious that it would effectively dump his beloved Hurd project into the trash can. If he really called someone a troll for asking his opinion of systemd, then my feeling about RMS has gone down a couple of notches. RMS didn't call me a troll, he answered the question. Somebody else took it upon himself to refer to the question as trolling. I haven't decided yet whether to speak to that person tomorrow about it. Peter Olson Well, RMS doesn't do anymore development work as far as I know, so maybe his opinion doesn't matter. Still, as a well-known time-honored spokesperson for free software (I know he doesn't want us calling it open source) I would have expected better. Pity. cheers, Robert ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Plan for Devuan to use Mozilla products as is
On March 5, 2015 at 11:26 PM Gravis rin...@adaptivetime.com wrote: the link you posted links to a clip from Al Jazeera that was taken down due to copyright infringement. you do realize that content from Al Jazeera is copyright and that posting it without permission is copyright infringement, right? if you do stuff like that repeatedly they ban you. are you claiming you didn't post the videos and that there is a conspiracy to oppress you? if so, you have a persecution complex. If I understand what you are saying you mean that a link to site A which links to copyrighted material on site B is itself a violation of copyright. This is a truly hazardous notion (called contributory copyright infringement by some). Link A - link B - link C - link D - link E - link F (violating) cause all downstream links to B, C, D, and E, as well as A, to be violations? It's involuntary, since A cannot be expected to traverse all paths to links out of B to check for this supposed violation, especially with transitive closure over the entire Internet and the lack of a useful discriminant for violation. It's retroactive, because site D can change its outbound links at any time after the initial citation of A to B and A will be none the wiser. Doubtless there are other worms in this can, so I rest my case. Peter Olson ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Beginning of Devuan Dmenu Howto
On March 2, 2015 at 12:07 AM Steve Litt sl...@troubleshooters.com wrote: Hi all, In a previous thread I discussed the usefulness and productivity of using dmenu in parallel with the hierarchical menu. I'm about 1/4 done, all of it dmenu general and not specific to Devuan, because I still don't know how Devuan's dmenu package will look. Does dmenu act without me pressing Enter? I'm wondering what happens when I make a typo that happens to match the name of a program I never heard of. Peter Olson ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Dng Digest, Vol 5, Issue 11
On February 23, 2015 at 7:35 PM Gravis rin...@adaptivetime.com wrote: ha! jude it's perfect. if there was ever a Master Control Program, it would be systemd. ;) --Gravis I have this image of the scene late in Tron where the MCP is turning red in the uplink after the data disk has been hurled into it. Superimpose a circle bar left over it to prohibit it. Peter Olson ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Important changes in Linux 3.20 (4.0?)
On February 15, 2015 at 2:39 PM Hendrik Boom hend...@topoi.pooq.com wrote: On Sun, Feb 15, 2015 at 12:50:53PM -0500, Jude Nelson wrote: IVI == In-Vehicle Infotainment. The stuff that runs your new car's UI. [stuff omitted] No one pushing this seems to be really concerned with the security, or the safety of the user interfaces. -- hendrik “Those who don't know history are doomed to repeat it.” ― Edmund Burke Peter Olson ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] About Devuan's audience
On February 16, 2015 at 10:55 AM Gravis rin...@adaptivetime.com wrote: You dont have to be a server admin to be concerned about security. I'm a desktop user/developer and while customization is nice, security is paramount. Revelations about the NSA has really made me reconsider system security for my box and linux in general. Obviously, systemd has a fundamental design flaw: it has no design because it's completely ad hoc! I'm certain that if not already, sometime in the future a remotely exploitable bug will be found and will have the terrifying potential of being able to control any networked machine that is running it. Perhaps computer scientists should read spy novels. The best security seems to rely on compartmentalization. No individual cell (service, feature) depends on how the others work except at the direct interface, so the system itself resists damage and systematic attack. Well, don't read too much literally into this except to note that we all know that systemd subverts this. It's not just the Unix way, it's the reliability way. Peter Olson ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] recommendation for consideration: keep as close to debian as possible
On February 16, 2015 at 5:19 PM Nuno Magalhães nunomagalh...@eu.ipp.pt wrote: On Mon, Feb 16, 2015 at 10:24 AM, Jaromil jaro...@dyne.org wrote: dear Nuno, On Sun, 15 Feb 2015, Nuno Magalhães wrote: Assuming i don't get moderated out (unlike the resident troll), the reason why your emails are arriving delayed is due to your email you subscribed, I love using email addresses with + in then when subscribing to stuff to see if they consider the email address invalid. Then i forgot i had used it :( My bad. A popular *nix convention is that abc+...@example.com is delivered to a...@example.com where the +xyz is a hint of no significance at all to the mail delivery agent. Some MDAs do this, some don't. I hadn't considered this previously, but the address matching in a list server probably can't understand this when making such a filter decision without some external guidance (RFC/config-etc). Peter Olson ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Important changes in Linux 3.20 (4.0?)
On February 16, 2015 at 8:25 PM Hendrik Boom hend...@topoi.pooq.com wrote: On Mon, Feb 16, 2015 at 07:34:57PM -0500, Peter Olson wrote: “Those who don't know history are doomed to repeat it.” ― Edmund Burke Peter Olson I think the original quote was by Santayana: George Santayana. Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it. George Santayana (16 December 1863 in Madrid, Spain – 26 September 1952 in Rome, Italy) was a philosopher, essayist, poet and novelist. -- hendri I'll see your January 12, 1729 (Burke, his birthday) against your 16 December 1863 (Santanayo) and claim that this is a timeless issue. It has always been this way. But the consequences of getting it wrong have increased. Peter Olson P.S.: I picked Edmund Burke because he was the oldest guy I found. Many, many others say the same thing. Newton said he stood on shoulders of giants. Let's not stand on their ankles. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] LILO
On February 8, 2015 at 8:06 PM Gravis rin...@adaptivetime.com wrote: You spend twenty minutes reviewing docs on which of the many files to put your modifications in and the commands to use, you do it just that way, and it doesn't work. if it's not working then either documentation is flawed or you are doing something wrong. my money is on the latter. sure configuring it may be a mess but it works (otherwise it wouldn't be ubiquitous) and you also have the option of using a GUI to simplify the process. My own unhappy experience with GRUB 2 happened when I did a distribution upgrade which rendered my system unbootable. I had to become a GRUB expert to find out what I could type at the GRUB command line to even start to diagnose what was wrong. After a lot of gnashing of teeth, I found out that my MD0 and MD1 raid configuration was being enumerated by GRUB as MD127 and MD126. But I still didn't know how to fix it. Unfortunately, the upgrade was mandatory to fix a fatal flaw in the version of ecryptfs in the previous version which had destroyed some of my files. I switched to a different distro to get around this. Peter Olson ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
