[DNG] [devuan-dev] Of confidence and support and the future of Devuan.
As a Devuan user I suggest the Devuan Administrative Team to consider the thinking of a detailed contingency plan in case of a crises that should include how to deal with internal conflicts and what to do when important servers fail. I would also suggest setting up emergency supplimentary servers that should stay dormant when there are no problems. By servers I do not mean those extremely expensive servers but also normal home computers. Furthermore, why not use virtualisation for these all important servers? In case a virtual machine breaks another instance should spring into life to replace it. These are my suggestions: I admit I am not at all versed where servers are involved let alone their adminstration. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] [devuan-dev] Of confidence and support and the future of Devuan.
On 24-04-19 09:20, Jaromil wrote: > On Tue, 23 Apr 2019, KatolaZ wrote: > >> Counting individual contributions to a voluntary project is totally >> pointless: since there is no price tag on "one hour of voluntary >> work", then a voluntary contribution of one hour is as important and >> as valuable as 1000 hours of voluntary contribution. Noone can ask a >> volunteer to work more, or to work less, or to work at all, because a >> volunteer is a free man/woman devoted to a cause. Devuan is made by a >> community of voluntaries, not by single egos. Making contributions as >> much as possible *invisible*, anonymising, hiding, de-personalising, >> collectivising, this is the only way through IMHO, the only way to let >> a community shine. If anything will last, it will be Devuan as a >> whole, not any of the volunteers who have put it into existence. >> >> "A leader is best >> When people barely know he exists >> Of a good leader, who talks little, >> When his work is done, his aim fulfilled, >> They will say, 'We did this ourselves.' >> ", Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching > Precisely. I am afraid though, that people will just go on writing > "please stay <3" letters to CenturionDan, (who is the one responsible > for Katolaz to leave, for the CI for being down, for this drama here) > without even thinking how other volunteers feel like. Because this is > how politics work: personalisations, egos and populism. > > ciao Measuring the value of contributions from people to Devuan is not your strongest point. Besides there is only one person responsible for Katolaz to leave and that is Katolaz himself. Grtz Nick signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] [devuan-dev] Of confidence and support and the future of Devuan.
On Tue, 23 Apr 2019, KatolaZ wrote: > Counting individual contributions to a voluntary project is totally > pointless: since there is no price tag on "one hour of voluntary > work", then a voluntary contribution of one hour is as important and > as valuable as 1000 hours of voluntary contribution. Noone can ask a > volunteer to work more, or to work less, or to work at all, because a > volunteer is a free man/woman devoted to a cause. Devuan is made by a > community of voluntaries, not by single egos. Making contributions as > much as possible *invisible*, anonymising, hiding, de-personalising, > collectivising, this is the only way through IMHO, the only way to let > a community shine. If anything will last, it will be Devuan as a > whole, not any of the volunteers who have put it into existence. > > "A leader is best > When people barely know he exists > Of a good leader, who talks little, > When his work is done, his aim fulfilled, > They will say, 'We did this ourselves.' > ", Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching Precisely. I am afraid though, that people will just go on writing "please stay <3" letters to CenturionDan, (who is the one responsible for Katolaz to leave, for the CI for being down, for this drama here) without even thinking how other volunteers feel like. Because this is how politics work: personalisations, egos and populism. ciao ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] [devuan-dev] Of confidence and support and the future of Devuan.
On Tue, 23 Apr 2019 12:05:55 +0200, KatolaZ wrote in message <20190423100555.a5qywvfc57x4h...@katolaz.homeunix.net>: > "A leader is best > When people barely know he exists > Of a good leader, who talks little, > When his work is done, his aim fulfilled, > They will say, 'We did this ourselves.' > ", Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching ..with good self driven people, it's more like pointing them "That way!" and knowing when to get out of their way. :o) -- ..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt Karlsen ...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry... Scenarios always come in sets of three: best case, worst case, and just in case. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] [devuan-dev] Of confidence and support and the future of Devuan.
On Tue, Apr 23, 2019 at 11:38:00AM +0200, Svante Signell via Dng wrote: > On Tue, 2019-04-23 at 09:10 +0200, Jaromil wrote: > > On Mon, 22 Apr 2019, Rick Moen wrote: > > > > > Dan, it is _not_ time for you to leave. Please stay. > > > > Well Rick, at this point considering all the dust Dan is kicking up > > in > > public, apparently now intentionally, I'd say he better leave. All > > his > > past three actions in Devuan damaged the project. I doubt there will > > be recovery and start thinking we'll be better off. I am still in > > favor of listing CenturionDan among the professionals supporting > > Devuan for enterprise support, but I don't believe this is a useful > > caretaking attitude, since he seems to put his own interests and > > concerns before the project's health. > > Sorry Jaromil, > > I don't agree with you. Both Dan and Katolaz should be part of the > caretakers group. What bout nextime, is he still active? And what are > your contributions to the project as a whole? > Just to clarify, and with a hope to stop this nonsense: I decided to take a leave from Devuan all by myself, not because anybody asked me to do that (if anybody asked me repeatedly to leave that was Dan, not Jaromil or anybody else, but those particular requests were irrelevant for my decision). As I have already asked in this list, if you care about Devuan please just stop the drama and use the spare time you have to help Devuan concretely. Just close your email clients, and come back in 24/48 hours, when you have decided how you can contribute to Devuan. Sometimes not answering an email is just much more productive. The rest is useless rubbish. Counting individual contributions to a voluntary project is totally pointless: since there is no price tag on "one hour of voluntary work", then a voluntary contribution of one hour is as important and as valuable as 1000 hours of voluntary contribution. Noone can ask a volunteer to work more, or to work less, or to work at all, because a volunteer is a free man/woman devoted to a cause. Devuan is made by a community of voluntaries, not by single egos. Making contributions as much as possible *invisible*, anonymising, hiding, de-personalising, collectivising, this is the only way through IMHO, the only way to let a community shine. If anything will last, it will be Devuan as a whole, not any of the volunteers who have put it into existence. "A leader is best When people barely know he exists Of a good leader, who talks little, When his work is done, his aim fulfilled, They will say, 'We did this ourselves.' ", Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching HND The last humble servant -- [ ~.,_ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ - Devuan -- Freaknet Medialab ] [ "+. katolaz [at] freaknet.org --- katolaz [at] yahoo.it ] [ @) http://kalos.mine.nu --- Devuan GNU + Linux User ] [ @@) http://maths.qmul.ac.uk/~vnicosia -- GPG: 0B5F062F ] [ (@@@) Twitter: @KatolaZ - skype: katolaz -- github: KatolaZ ] signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] [devuan-dev] Of confidence and support and the future of Devuan.
On Tue, 2019-04-23 at 09:10 +0200, Jaromil wrote: > On Mon, 22 Apr 2019, Rick Moen wrote: > > > Dan, it is _not_ time for you to leave. Please stay. > > Well Rick, at this point considering all the dust Dan is kicking up > in > public, apparently now intentionally, I'd say he better leave. All > his > past three actions in Devuan damaged the project. I doubt there will > be recovery and start thinking we'll be better off. I am still in > favor of listing CenturionDan among the professionals supporting > Devuan for enterprise support, but I don't believe this is a useful > caretaking attitude, since he seems to put his own interests and > concerns before the project's health. Sorry Jaromil, I don't agree with you. Both Dan and Katolaz should be part of the caretakers group. What bout nextime, is he still active? And what are your contributions to the project as a whole? Thanks! ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] [devuan-dev] Of confidence and support and the future of Devuan.
Quoting Jaromil (jaro...@dyne.org):
> On Mon, 22 Apr 2019, Rick Moen wrote:
>
> > Dan, it is _not_ time for you to leave. Please stay.
>
> Well Rick, at this point considering all the dust Dan is kicking up in
> public, apparently now intentionally, I'd say he better leave. All his
> past three actions in Devuan damaged the project. I doubt there will
> be recovery and start thinking we'll be better off. I am still in
> favor of listing CenturionDan among the professionals supporting
> Devuan for enterprise support, but I don't believe this is a useful
> caretaking attitude, since he seems to put his own interests and
> concerns before the project's health.
I have great respect for your good judgement, Jaromil, and IMO your
words to Dan about ci.devuan.org recovery were judicious and wise, even
though they included (justifiable) annoyance. I'm definitely _not_
going to say you're mistaken, in the above. In particular, yes, sure,
IMO Dan really should _not_ have escalated to two project mailing lists
(Dng + devuan-dev) without working more in private to resolve metters,
first, and you're certainly right that caretakers not doing that is a
problem.
Mostly what I'm saying is that the previously detailed interactions are
fixable: I believe I'm seeing a communication antipattern familiar to
me from my _own_ past errors. And I'm pleading for some tolerance while
seeing if that might be fixed, recognising that we're all flawed and
sometimes fall into avoidable pitfalls, where we have difficulty heeding
the First Rule of Holes. ('If you find yourself in a hole, stop digging.')
I'm going to tell a story, and, just to make sure I don't commit the sin
of assigning myself a heroic role, I'll confess to a damning flaw that
was very damaging in this story: I tend to (in a rhetorical sense)
corner people, by which I mean mercilessly highlight in public their
having taken an unreasonable position and confront them, heedless of the
human tendency to 'double-down' when confronted, and go transrational.
For almost two decades, I was a member of the Board of Directors of my
local guild of system administrators, a non-profit corporation named
BayLISA (created in the 1990s as the San Francisco Bay Area independent
group inspired by USENIX's Large Installation System Administration
Conference). Around 2005, which if memory serves was during my second
two-year term, one of BayLISA's ongoing irritations was a person on our
mailing lists named Richard Childers, who first kept posting impassioned
attacks against Oracle Corporation and then started demanding admission
to the baylisa-women mailing list, claiming BayLISA would be violating
(uspecified) anti-discrimination laws if he were denied membership to a
forum for female system administrators, particularly since (he asserted)
this was his entitlement as a BayLISA member.
The other members of the Board, including BayLISA's President, whom I'll
anonymise (using cryptography's naming convention) as 'Alice', were
inclined to give in to Childers's blustering. I wrote to them, though,
and said 'Hang on, let me have a go at this.' I wrote a polite note to
Childers, CC'ed to the Board, asking what specific legal obligation he
believed BayLISA to be under that obliged us to give him admission to a
mailing list deliberately open only to women. I gave him a succinct
four-paragraph summary of all the USA and California anti-discrimination
statutes I'd researched, showing that none of them applied to BayLISA.
Last, to close that e-mail, I mentioned that, in my capacity as
BayLISA's Treasurer, I had reviewed our records for the past ~15 years
of BayLISA's existence, and found no evidence that he'd at any time been
a dues-paying BayLISA member. Was this correct, or had I missed
something? Mr. Childers, being what one would technically call a
'nutcase', exploded quite wonderfully with non-sequitur personal
attacks, which I considered to have made my point perfectly.
However, at this point, the real trouble began. A fellow Board member,
whom I'll pseudonymise following cryptography's naming convention as
'Bob', suddenly seemed very upset on the Board of Directors mailing
list. And this is where my damning personal flaw became a problem.
At this point in the story, I must also briefly describe a legal problem
BayLISA then had, that I'd recently discovered and brought to the
Board's attention: BayLISA had entrusted (without checking) to a
professional accountant doing its tax filings to government regulators.
Having (unlike everyone else on the Board) a background in accounting
and finance, I'd double-checked our corporate status with the state of
California, and found our corporation had been _suspended_ for lack of
required filings. So, I was in the middle of repairing that lapse, and
had strongly advised the Board to be careful to exercise legal caution
while our corporate 'liabiiity shield' was non-existent during
that suspension of our corporate status.
With
Re: [DNG] [devuan-dev] Of confidence and support and the future of Devuan.
Anno domini 2019 Tue, 23 Apr 12:32:29 +0900 mett scripsit: > On 2019年4月23日 11:24:39 JST, Rick Moen wrote: > >Dan, it is _not_ time for you to leave. Please stay. > > > >I've seen only the public portions of these text-format interactions, > >but think I'm seen enough data to assess the basic situation. Although > >I'm a friendly outsider to Devuan Project governance, I've seen many > >similar destructive spirals in open source projects over many decades: > >It starts with well-intended individual actions taken without adequate > >consultation, which cause reactions from other parties who feel taken > >by > >surprise. When those reactions are in e-mail, or (slightly worse) in > >e-mail with a large audience such as on mailing lists, then a > >communication anti-pattern tends to take hold that drives the parties > >into confrontation, frustration, and perception of harm that could have > >been resolved if the parties had switched to more-interactive, > >more-personal, and less public means of communication -- such as voice > >telephone or Internet video conferencing. > > > >As to Denis/Jaromil's comments about the ci.devuan.org failure, yes, he > >spoke sharply to you about some of your initial steps, but, if you > >review what he said, the main points were that (1) better consultation > >should have occurred throughout and (2) he asked you to wait before > >taking additional action. IMO, if you set aside for a moment the tinge > >of personal accusation you're perceiving in what he wrote, you will see > >that those are reasonable comments from a project-management > >perspective. > > > >Back when I was manager of a department of system administrators, I > >told my employees that I'd shield them from problems visited onto our > >department from other parts of the firm and help their professional > >development, and in return I asked and expected two things: (1) > >Do their assigned share of our work, but equally important, (2) make > >sure I was never blindsided about anything they did, i.e., if there > >was bad news in which they were involved, I expected to hear it from > >them first and immediately, not later or from anyone else. > > > >Devuan Project of course differs in being less-hierarchical not to > >mention volunteer, but good and timely communication is every bit as > >important if not more so, and the antipatterns I've seen lately appear > >to _all_ involve failure to do timely consultation, and then reliance > >on > >known-problematic _asynchronous_ communication methods such as e-mail / > >mailing lists that are inadequate to the situation and tend to worsen > >interpersonal conflict, avoidably. > > > >Devuan has suffered enough loss, and I wish everyone would please > >de-escalate and to understand that e-mail is not the right solution for > >all communication needs, especially where there is risk of > >contentiousness and hard feelings. > > > >And you belong here, and would be greatly missed. > > > > > >-- > >Cheers, "I am not a vegetarian because I love > >animals; > >Rick MoenI am a vegetarian because I hate > >plants." > >r...@linuxmafia.com-- A. Whitney > >Brown > >McQ! (4x80) > >___ > >Dng mailing list > >Dng@lists.dyne.org > >https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng > > Hi, > I second what Rick Moen said. > > Centurion_Dan, please stay. > > And guys, relax please. > > If you don t, the situation won t > defuse. > > Yoroshiku! +1 from me. There's always a point of crysis in any project, sooner or later. Pressure builds up, involvement gets personal. Take a deep breath, look at what you have acomplished, be proud of it. Face the fact that humans are complicated beeings, and you are one of them. Get some booze, yell at each other, have a good fight ... and probably have a good read, I suggest https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asterix_and_the_Great_Divide Nik -- Please do not email me anything that you are not comfortable also sharing with the NSA, CIA ... ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] [devuan-dev] Of confidence and support and the future of Devuan.
On Mon, 22 Apr 2019, Rick Moen wrote: > Dan, it is _not_ time for you to leave. Please stay. Well Rick, at this point considering all the dust Dan is kicking up in public, apparently now intentionally, I'd say he better leave. All his past three actions in Devuan damaged the project. I doubt there will be recovery and start thinking we'll be better off. I am still in favor of listing CenturionDan among the professionals supporting Devuan for enterprise support, but I don't believe this is a useful caretaking attitude, since he seems to put his own interests and concerns before the project's health. ciao ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] [devuan-dev] Of confidence and support and the future of Devuan.
On 2019年4月23日 11:24:39 JST, Rick Moen wrote: >Dan, it is _not_ time for you to leave. Please stay. > >I've seen only the public portions of these text-format interactions, >but think I'm seen enough data to assess the basic situation. Although >I'm a friendly outsider to Devuan Project governance, I've seen many >similar destructive spirals in open source projects over many decades: >It starts with well-intended individual actions taken without adequate >consultation, which cause reactions from other parties who feel taken >by >surprise. When those reactions are in e-mail, or (slightly worse) in >e-mail with a large audience such as on mailing lists, then a >communication anti-pattern tends to take hold that drives the parties >into confrontation, frustration, and perception of harm that could have >been resolved if the parties had switched to more-interactive, >more-personal, and less public means of communication -- such as voice >telephone or Internet video conferencing. > >As to Denis/Jaromil's comments about the ci.devuan.org failure, yes, he >spoke sharply to you about some of your initial steps, but, if you >review what he said, the main points were that (1) better consultation >should have occurred throughout and (2) he asked you to wait before >taking additional action. IMO, if you set aside for a moment the tinge >of personal accusation you're perceiving in what he wrote, you will see >that those are reasonable comments from a project-management >perspective. > >Back when I was manager of a department of system administrators, I >told my employees that I'd shield them from problems visited onto our >department from other parts of the firm and help their professional >development, and in return I asked and expected two things: (1) >Do their assigned share of our work, but equally important, (2) make >sure I was never blindsided about anything they did, i.e., if there >was bad news in which they were involved, I expected to hear it from >them first and immediately, not later or from anyone else. > >Devuan Project of course differs in being less-hierarchical not to >mention volunteer, but good and timely communication is every bit as >important if not more so, and the antipatterns I've seen lately appear >to _all_ involve failure to do timely consultation, and then reliance >on >known-problematic _asynchronous_ communication methods such as e-mail / >mailing lists that are inadequate to the situation and tend to worsen >interpersonal conflict, avoidably. > >Devuan has suffered enough loss, and I wish everyone would please >de-escalate and to understand that e-mail is not the right solution for >all communication needs, especially where there is risk of >contentiousness and hard feelings. > >And you belong here, and would be greatly missed. > > >-- >Cheers, "I am not a vegetarian because I love >animals; >Rick MoenI am a vegetarian because I hate >plants." >r...@linuxmafia.com-- A. Whitney >Brown >McQ! (4x80) >___ >Dng mailing list >Dng@lists.dyne.org >https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng Hi, I second what Rick Moen said. Centurion_Dan, please stay. And guys, relax please. If you don t, the situation won t defuse. Yoroshiku!___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] [devuan-dev] Of confidence and support and the future of Devuan.
On 04/22/2019 10:24 PM, Rick Moen wrote: Dan, it is _not_ time for you to leave. Please stay. I've seen only the public portions of these text-format interactions, but think I'm seen enough data to assess the basic situation. Although I'm a friendly outsider to Devuan Project governance, I've seen many similar destructive spirals in open source projects over many decades: It starts with well-intended individual actions taken without adequate consultation, which cause reactions from other parties who feel taken by surprise. When those reactions are in e-mail, or (slightly worse) in e-mail with a large audience such as on mailing lists, then a communication anti-pattern tends to take hold that drives the parties into confrontation, frustration, and perception of harm that could have been resolved if the parties had switched to more-interactive, more-personal, and less public means of communication -- such as voice telephone or Internet video conferencing. As to Denis/Jaromil's comments about the ci.devuan.org failure, yes, he spoke sharply to you about some of your initial steps, but, if you review what he said, the main points were that (1) better consultation should have occurred throughout and (2) he asked you to wait before taking additional action. IMO, if you set aside for a moment the tinge of personal accusation you're perceiving in what he wrote, you will see that those are reasonable comments from a project-management perspective. Back when I was manager of a department of system administrators, I told my employees that I'd shield them from problems visited onto our department from other parts of the firm and help their professional development, and in return I asked and expected two things: (1) Do their assigned share of our work, but equally important, (2) make sure I was never blindsided about anything they did, i.e., if there was bad news in which they were involved, I expected to hear it from them first and immediately, not later or from anyone else. Devuan Project of course differs in being less-hierarchical not to mention volunteer, but good and timely communication is every bit as important if not more so, and the antipatterns I've seen lately appear to _all_ involve failure to do timely consultation, and then reliance on known-problematic _asynchronous_ communication methods such as e-mail / mailing lists that are inadequate to the situation and tend to worsen interpersonal conflict, avoidably. Devuan has suffered enough loss, and I wish everyone would please de-escalate and to understand that e-mail is not the right solution for all communication needs, especially where there is risk of contentiousness and hard feelings. And you belong here, and would be greatly missed. +1 ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] [devuan-dev] Of confidence and support and the future of Devuan.
Dan, it is _not_ time for you to leave. Please stay. I've seen only the public portions of these text-format interactions, but think I'm seen enough data to assess the basic situation. Although I'm a friendly outsider to Devuan Project governance, I've seen many similar destructive spirals in open source projects over many decades: It starts with well-intended individual actions taken without adequate consultation, which cause reactions from other parties who feel taken by surprise. When those reactions are in e-mail, or (slightly worse) in e-mail with a large audience such as on mailing lists, then a communication anti-pattern tends to take hold that drives the parties into confrontation, frustration, and perception of harm that could have been resolved if the parties had switched to more-interactive, more-personal, and less public means of communication -- such as voice telephone or Internet video conferencing. As to Denis/Jaromil's comments about the ci.devuan.org failure, yes, he spoke sharply to you about some of your initial steps, but, if you review what he said, the main points were that (1) better consultation should have occurred throughout and (2) he asked you to wait before taking additional action. IMO, if you set aside for a moment the tinge of personal accusation you're perceiving in what he wrote, you will see that those are reasonable comments from a project-management perspective. Back when I was manager of a department of system administrators, I told my employees that I'd shield them from problems visited onto our department from other parts of the firm and help their professional development, and in return I asked and expected two things: (1) Do their assigned share of our work, but equally important, (2) make sure I was never blindsided about anything they did, i.e., if there was bad news in which they were involved, I expected to hear it from them first and immediately, not later or from anyone else. Devuan Project of course differs in being less-hierarchical not to mention volunteer, but good and timely communication is every bit as important if not more so, and the antipatterns I've seen lately appear to _all_ involve failure to do timely consultation, and then reliance on known-problematic _asynchronous_ communication methods such as e-mail / mailing lists that are inadequate to the situation and tend to worsen interpersonal conflict, avoidably. Devuan has suffered enough loss, and I wish everyone would please de-escalate and to understand that e-mail is not the right solution for all communication needs, especially where there is risk of contentiousness and hard feelings. And you belong here, and would be greatly missed. -- Cheers, "I am not a vegetarian because I love animals; Rick MoenI am a vegetarian because I hate plants." r...@linuxmafia.com-- A. Whitney Brown McQ! (4x80) ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
