Re: [DNG] Accountability (Was: TALOS 2 - The Libre Owner Controlled POWER9 Workstation/Server)

[zap]

On 09/01/2017 11:05 AM, Rick Moen wrote:
> Quoting zap (calmst...@posteo.de):
>
>> I think he meant, threatened the way most people mean threatened, like a
>> demand not to do something or else.
> It was just a little vague, and I was interested in the 'or else'.
> Also, I think misbehaviour from Mozilla Corporation would be of broad
> interest generally, even for projects intending to use only derived
> codebases.  Anyway:
>
>> Regardless though, Waterfox is well worth replacing firefox in the
>> repo.  At least in the unstable/testing if nothing else, alas waterfox
>> has no ESR version yet.
> Waterfox does seem like a reasonable near-term plan for the project
> (IMO).
I think it should be in ceres at the very least and if possible ascii
too. Although I don't know if its possible for jessie to have it too.
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Re: [DNG] Accountability (Was: TALOS 2 - The Libre Owner Controlled POWER9 Workstation/Server)

[Rick Moen]

Quoting zap (calmst...@posteo.de):

> I think he meant, threatened the way most people mean threatened, like a
> demand not to do something or else.

It was just a little vague, and I was interested in the 'or else'.
Also, I think misbehaviour from Mozilla Corporation would be of broad
interest generally, even for projects intending to use only derived
codebases.  Anyway:

> Regardless though, Waterfox is well worth replacing firefox in the
> repo.  At least in the unstable/testing if nothing else, alas waterfox
> has no ESR version yet.

Waterfox does seem like a reasonable near-term plan for the project
(IMO).

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Re: [DNG] Accountability (Was: TALOS 2 - The Libre Owner Controlled POWER9 Workstation/Server)

[zap]

> To recap, I merely made the point that if individuals at Mozilla
> Corporation have been indeed 'threatening' Enrico Weigelt when he 
> made technical proposals for Firefox -- the term 'threatening' having
> been oddly undefined -- and he considers that response unmerited, he 
> should detail what they did and include the relevant names.
>
> I'm still mildly curious about what 'threatened' meant.
I think he meant, threatened the way most people mean threatened, like a
demand not to do something or else.
Regardless though, Waterfox is well worth replacing firefox in the
repo.  At least in the unstable/testing if nothing else, alas waterfox
has no ESR version yet.
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Re: [DNG] Accountability (Was: TALOS 2 - The Libre Owner Controlled POWER9 Workstation/Server)

[Rick Moen]

Quoting zap (calmst...@posteo.de):

> On 09/01/2017 08:33 AM, Narcis Garcia wrote:
> > ...Pan Am aircraft...
> > Volkswagen soviet union?
> As entertaining as this is, what does this have to do with the Talos 2?

Nothing, and it's an annoying and unwarranted digression into the
personal, with which I will not participate.

To recap, I merely made the point that if individuals at Mozilla
Corporation have been indeed 'threatening' Enrico Weigelt when he 
made technical proposals for Firefox -- the term 'threatening' having
been oddly undefined -- and he considers that response unmerited, he 
should detail what they did and include the relevant names.

I'm still mildly curious about what 'threatened' meant.

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Re: [DNG] Accountability (Was: TALOS 2 - The Libre Owner Controlled POWER9 Workstation/Server)

[zap]

On 09/01/2017 08:33 AM, Narcis Garcia wrote:
> ...Pan Am aircraft...
> Volkswagen soviet union?
As entertaining as this is, what does this have to do with the Talos 2?
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Re: [DNG] Accountability (Was: TALOS 2 - The Libre Owner Controlled POWER9 Workstation/Server)

[Narcis Garcia]

...Pan Am aircraft...
Volkswagen soviet union?

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Re: [DNG] Accountability (Was: TALOS 2 - The Libre Owner Controlled POWER9 Workstation/Server)

[Simon Hobson]

Rick Moen  wrote:

> If you read the National Transportation Safety Board report on the Pan
> American World Airways flight 799 disaster that killed my father in
> December '68

I found that after you mentioned it earlier - it made sobering reading. You and 
your family have my sympathies, it cannot have been easy to come to terms with.
I apologise if discussing it causes any issues for you.

> , the crucial error (among several) was by an _unnamed_
> engineer in Pan Am service engineering who 'decided that [a recommended
> hardware] modification was not necessary', despite having carte blanche
> to do any fix costing less than US $50 per airframe and just expense it.
> An equally unnamed supervisor reviewed this decision and 'decided, after
> coordination with flight operations, that the bulletin was not
> applicable to Pan Am aircraft, and no further action was taken.  The
> reason for this decision was not fully documented.'
> 
> And no names.
> 
> Names.  Accountability.  I rather like them.

On a flying related mailing list I'm on, there used to be a reasonably 
experienced pilot who pointed out that many issues are like ducks nibbling at 
your ankles - you can tolerate one or two, but when there's half a dozen then 
it's hard to ignore them. Reading the NTSB report, the thing that stuck out for 
me was how this was a real example of that - several small issues, none of 
which would have caused the crash on their own.

I also know that had I been in the position of that engineer or supervisor, 
then it would have haunted me that had I made a different decision at the time 
(which may well have been a rational decision based on the facts/understandings 
known at the time) then the outcome could well have been different. And I do 
know what that haunting is like - you manage to put the memory out of your 
mind, then it just re-appears (sometimes at random, sometime because something 
triggered it) and again you wonder "if I'd done something different, would they 
still be alive today ?".

I'm not sure that naming the people would necessarily help. I assume it could 
well have been any one of several engineers making that decision for that 
aircraft - so it was that person's bad luck to be the one (of several) that 
could have been responsible. Everyone in the team will have known, and the rest 
probably muttered to themselves "there but for the grace of god ..." at not 
being the one with the guilty conscience.

We see this a lot these days, someone makes a mistake, and the massed crowds 
(or media) bay for that person's blood (or resignation) - often successfully. I 
don't see that as constructive in the grand scheme of things - someone made a 
mistake, they aren't likely to make that mistake again, yet they are chucked 
out and along with them goes their skills & experience, so chucking them out 
deprives the future of the those skills & experience.

And lets be clear, this engineering decision was not *THE* cause of the crash - 
it was one of several ducks all nibbling at the ankles of fate. Changing it 
would almost certainly have avoided the crash, as would different weather, as 
would a change in the checklist, as would a change in the ATC pressures. I'm 
sure there were plenty of people arguing that it was the pilots' fault for not 
setting the flaps correctly - ignoring the human factors, engineering 
decisions, checklist deficiencies, ATC pressures, weather, etc.

I can also speak first hand about how things can quickly get out of hand. In my 
case I have less than 200 hours in light aircraft, and my "incident" left me 
with a reusable plane and no injuries other than to my pride. What to a 
bystander or myself in hindsight should have been a series of easy 
choices/decisions to make - become a totally different matter when the brown 
stuff is flying and your decision making process has turned to jelly.

So hypothetically speaking ...
What if the engineer had been named, and as a result was hounded out of the 
industry ?
Would that have undone the (what looks in hindsight to be a) mistake ? No it 
wouldn't.
What would have happened is that someone else would have had to step into the 
job, and somewhere down the line a new (probably junior engineer, new to the 
industry) employed. So overall, the level of skill and experience in the 
company has gone down - very slightly, but it's gone down. Does anyone benefit 
from that ? I don't think so.
Often, I think the only beneficiaries of such naming and shaming are those who 
somehow feel their loss has in some way been avenged. We all feel that our loss 
should be avenged - but that's not always the same thing as justice or what's 
best for society as a whole.
But every case is different. In many cases I agree that it is right to name 
those responsible, and in many cases it is a good thing if they are not allowed 
to continue in their trade.

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