Re: [DNG] Brief OpenRC/Jessie Discussion on the linux-elitists lists

[Daniel Reurich]

On 20/05/16 09:26, Svante Signell wrote:
> On Wed, 2016-05-18 at 06:26 -0400, Boruch Baum wrote:
>> On 2016-05-18 12:11, Svante Signell wrote:
 ...
>>> I'm listed as a co-maintainer of openrc (as well as ifupdown).
>>> However, due to
>>> the hostile environment in Debian I'm reluctant to do any serious
>>> work on these
>>> packages, except contributing to RC bugs being solved, to keep them
>>> in testing.
 ...
>>> In my opinion the usage of init-system-helpers is wrong, why not
>>> use the package
>>> update system already available: update-alternatives? See also
>>> dpkg-divert.
>>
>> +1
>>> The idea could be developed further, to use debian's proven
>>> 'update-alternatives' method for switching amongst init-systems.
> 
> What do you say, maybe we should create a package named init-freedom
> (suggested by jaromil/nexttime?) using the update-alternatives tool?
> That would override the debian init-system-helpers, which I find fairly
> obsolete, but it is probably there due to systemd-sysv.

I strongly disagree here - for several reasons:

1) changing the init system daemon is not as simple as changing which
binary gets run.  There is a whole lot of other jobs that needs to be
done most of which would obviate a reboot - particularly when changing
too/from systemd.  We need init-system-helpers and dh_ to
be able to ensure that packages get the mechanisms that ensure smooth
transitions between init systems.

2) Switching the init using update alternatives directly makes it easy
for packagers to hijack the init by setting a priority higher then other
init alternatives.  This moves the control of default init to individual
packagers rather then as a distrobution controlled default.  Also this
would allow unintended changes between inits to occur if a malicious
packager bumped the priority value of the alternatives.  Having to
install a package would also ensure that the appropriated
init-system-helper hooks get run to nicely manage the transition for all
effected service daemons.

2) init-system-helpers provides a framework which uses triggers to run
hooks based on installation changes to the running init system.

Systemd uses it for some triggering some scripts related to changing
to/from sysvinit and upstart.  We should further extend this
functionality to also do deployment/removal of each packages
 files etc for the installed init systems
and when the init package is installed.  This makes it easy to
transition between init systems but also not have a proliferation of
redundant cruft for init systems not being used or in transition.





-- 
Daniel Reurich
Centurion Computer Technology (2005) Ltd.
021 797 722



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Re: [DNG] Brief OpenRC/Jessie Discussion on the linux-elitists lists

[Svante Signell]

On Wed, 2016-05-18 at 06:26 -0400, Boruch Baum wrote:
> On 2016-05-18 12:11, Svante Signell wrote:
> > > ...
> > I'm listed as a co-maintainer of openrc (as well as ifupdown).
> > However, due to
> > the hostile environment in Debian I'm reluctant to do any serious
> > work on these
> > packages, except contributing to RC bugs being solved, to keep them
> > in testing.
> > > ...
> > In my opinion the usage of init-system-helpers is wrong, why not
> > use the package
> > update system already available: update-alternatives? See also
> > dpkg-divert.
> 
> +1
> > The idea could be developed further, to use debian's proven
> > 'update-alternatives' method for switching amongst init-systems.

What do you say, maybe we should create a package named init-freedom
(suggested by jaromil/nexttime?) using the update-alternatives tool?
That would override the debian init-system-helpers, which I find fairly
obsolete, but it is probably there due to systemd-sysv.
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Re: [DNG] Brief OpenRC/Jessie Discussion on the linux-elitists lists

[Boruch Baum]

On 2016-05-18 12:11, Svante Signell wrote:
> > ...
> I'm listed as a co-maintainer of openrc (as well as ifupdown). However, due to
> the hostile environment in Debian I'm reluctant to do any serious work on 
> these
> packages, except contributing to RC bugs being solved, to keep them in 
> testing.
> > ...
> In my opinion the usage of init-system-helpers is wrong, why not use the 
> package
> update system already available: update-alternatives? See also dpkg-divert.

+1
Reference:
> From boruch_b...@gmx.com Mon May  2 21:43:59 2016
> Subject: Re: [DNG] OpenRC and Devuan
>
> ...
> The idea could be developed further, to use debian's proven
> 'update-alternatives' method for switching amongst init-systems.

--
hkp://keys.gnupg.net
CA45 09B5 5351 7C11 A9D1  7286 0036 9E45 1595 8BC0
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Re: [DNG] Brief OpenRC/Jessie Discussion on the linux-elitists lists

[Svante Signell]

On Tue, 2016-05-17 at 13:38 +0200, Adam Borowski wrote:
> On Mon, May 16, 2016 at 09:27:43PM -0400, Steve Litt wrote:
> > 
> > > 
> > > I sincerely wish the remedy of installing openrc and pinning systemd
> > > would work, but I'm sure it won't on the mid-long term.
> > It obviously can't. The same Debian leadership who voted "no" (or was
> > it "we don't need no steenkin GR") on supporting multiple inits now
> > determines whether the OpenRC package is maintained or not. That's no
> > foundation on which to build init choice freedom.
> Thoroughly no!  Please don't spread such misconceptions -- it's voicing such
> views that brings the most ammunition to the pro-systemd faction.
> 
> Openrc is undermaintained in Debian not because of some cabal, but because
> of manpower issues: no one does real work on it currently, and its listed
> maintainers are hardly active.

I'm listed as a co-maintainer of openrc (as well as ifupdown). However, due to
the hostile environment in Debian I'm reluctant to do any serious work on these
packages, except contributing to RC bugs being solved, to keep them in testing.

> True, systemd-related changes (like, in init-system-helpers) do add to this
> burden, but that's not different from, say, burden on libpng using packages
> caused by the png12->png16 migration.  This is a good part of maintainer's
> duties.  You can't really blame the additional work for failures when even
> the basic work isn't done.

In my opinion the usage of init-system-helpers is wrong, why not use the package
update system already available: update-alternatives? See also dpkg-divert.
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Re: [DNG] Brief OpenRC/Jessie Discussion on the linux-elitists lists

[Joel Roth]

Adam Borowski wrote:
> ...the word "pirate",
> originally a bandit and murderer (and in places like Somalia, still current!)
> yet nowadays its more widespread meaning is "culture spreading activist"[1]
> (not just copyright, also, eg, radio), a term of pride for many of us.

However, it is worth noting that among historical pirates,
governance may have been more egalitarian than, for example,
on ships of the East India Company. 
 
> [1]. The MAFIAA[2] defines that differently.
> [2]. And here, we're close to the original meaning.

-- 
Joel Roth
  

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Re: [DNG] Brief OpenRC/Jessie Discussion on the linux-elitists lists

[dev]

On 05/17/2016 06:45 AM, emnin...@riseup.net wrote:


Please do not take my question wrong (probably i am missing something):
If it's that way, how can devuan then rely on debian as for packages
etc.? At least in a forseeable future ... ?


Good question. Devuan and Debian are growing apart (as Jaromil alludes 
to in a newer message) and that means Devuan will, at some point, have 
to cut the tethers from Debian (of course, this is the normal and 
expected path of any fork).


It is annonying that after 25 years the Linux community needs to start 
over. Fortunately some very smart people established the GNU GPL very 
early on (almost like Stallman saw this coming) and this has prevented 
anyone from purchasing decades of charitable work and locking it away 
with a key.


Devuan, and a handful of other distros, are the only effort to keep the 
historic Linux culture alive. Redhat, Debian, SuSE are not, and cannot 
do it without turning around their monetary/power interests. They also 
cannot be relied on to be "free and open" so at any time, drastic things 
could change which intentionally affect any upstream (Devuan) software.



I think i understand the nucleus of the problem of init choice but i am
not a technician. And like many of you i found disgusting the manners
they disputed about systemd or alternatives (it was horrible in arch
and even more horrible in siduction. As i see it, the problem of the
supporters of systemd is, structurally/logically, they cannot accept
the idea of multiple init choices because it's contradictorial to the
concept of systemd).


SystemD support has some bright people with intentions which run 
completely counter to the Linux culture of openness. I think they have 
accepted what they are doing but what they are doing is the antitheses 
of FOSS in every which way.  As a whole, it's not so much about init, 
but it starts with init. Devuan is the beginning of a big solution to a 
large problem.



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Re: [DNG] Brief OpenRC/Jessie Discussion on the linux-elitists lists

[Steve Litt]

On Tue, 17 May 2016 14:11:49 +0200
Jaromil  wrote:

> On Tue, 17 May 2016, emnin...@riseup.net wrote:
> 
> > Am Mon, 16 May 2016 13:41:14 +
> > schrieb dev :

> > Please do not take my question wrong (probably i am missing
> > something): If it's that way, how can devuan then rely on debian as
> > for packages etc.? At least in a forseeable future ... ?  
> 
> we really are a *fork*. We are going to slowly but steadily detach
> ourselves from Debian, starting from the things they break.

This is good information. I didn't know the ultimate goal was to
detach, and I'm glad to hear that it is. And I applaud you for taking
it slowly and viewing it as a process, not an action.

SteveT

Steve Litt 
May 2016 featured book: Rapid Learning for the 21st Century
http://www.troubleshooters.com/rl21
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Re: [DNG] Brief OpenRC/Jessie Discussion on the linux-elitists lists

[Steve Litt]

On Tue, 17 May 2016 14:33:03 +0200
Jaromil  wrote:

> On Tue, 17 May 2016, Adam Borowski wrote:
> 
> > On Mon, May 16, 2016 at 09:27:43PM -0400, Steve Litt wrote:  
> 
> > > > I sincerely wish the remedy of installing openrc and pinning
> > > > systemd would work, but I'm sure it won't on the mid-long
> > > > term.  
> > > It obviously can't. The same Debian leadership who voted "no" (or
> > > was it "we don't need no steenkin GR") on supporting multiple
> > > inits now determines whether the OpenRC package is maintained or
> > > not. That's no foundation on which to build init choice freedom.  
> 
> [...]
> 
> > Openrc is undermaintained in Debian not because of some cabal, but
> > because of manpower issues: no one does real work on it currently,
> > and its listed maintainers are hardly active.  
> 
> I agree. Most of Debian is made by volunteers whose reliability will
> be limited on the long-term. They are often students on their path to
> find a job and disappear from Debian, or professionals on their way to
> switch to OSX as soon as they get a laptop for free at work.

Point of clarification on what I said: I had no idea OpenRC was
currently undermaintained by Debian. I was simply stating my opinion,
basically, that I don't *trust* Debian to continue offering OpenRC, or
offering a working OpenRC. Rick apparently trusts the Debian project.
Jaromil and I, not so much.

I guess that's the bottom line for me. Rightly or wrongly, I don't
trust the motivations and future actions of the Debian project, so I
would never have my business depend upon Debian.

SteveT

Steve Litt 
May 2016 featured book: Rapid Learning for the 21st Century
http://www.troubleshooters.com/rl21
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Re: [DNG] Brief OpenRC/Jessie Discussion on the linux-elitists lists

[Steve Litt]

On Tue, 17 May 2016 09:15:08 +0100
KatolaZ  wrote:

> On Mon, May 16, 2016 at 09:44:35PM -0400, Steve Litt wrote:

[snip Steve Litt's anti-Debian community rant]  

> It might be due to my natural attitude, which forbids me from spitting
> into the same plate I have been eating until 2 minutes ago, but I
> can't say that I ever felt so bad in the Debian community, until maybe
> 2013.

The preceding sentence is consistent with my experience. I didn't
start using Debian until February 2014.

> 
> Debian has made a massive contribution to the Free Software community,
> and we shouldn't forget that without Debian we would not be here.

Once upon a time, Debian was the guarantor that big money wouldn't
kidnap GNU/Linux. I wrote about that, last century:

http://troubleshooters.com/tpromag/199906/_debian.htm

Debian did a fine job of guaranteeing the freeness of GNU/Linux. I
think that mantle has been passed to Devuan.

SteveT

Steve Litt 
May 2016 featured book: Rapid Learning for the 21st Century
http://www.troubleshooters.com/rl21
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Re: [DNG] Brief OpenRC/Jessie Discussion on the linux-elitists lists

[Simon Hobson]

emnin...@riseup.net wrote:

> Please do not take my question wrong (probably i am missing something):
> If it's that way, how can devuan then rely on debian as for packages
> etc.? At least in a forseeable future ... ?

The thing is that Debian is already there, pretty well complete, and the 
majority of packages don't need fixing. I don't know how well you've followed 
some of the threads (and web pages linked to), but many of the problems are of 
the form : package A depends on package B, package B depends on package C, 
package C depends on ..., and package X depends on systemd - often in a very 
minor way. So indirectly Package A depends on SystemD, even though you might 
not be wanting to use any features of Package X that caused the dependency in 
the first place.
In this case, it's a matter of looking at Package X and determining what (if 
anything) it needs SystemD for and either removing the dependency or figuring 
out a way of providing the needed functions without using SystemD. Thus 
un-corrupting Package X allow Package A to be installed without modification. 
Of course, packages A, B, C etc may not be single packages, they might be whole 
suites of (say) desktop software - so fixing a small number of packages 
preventing the desktop environment installing could open up hundreds of 
packages with no direct dependency - and which don't need any "fixing" to be 
used.

As long as Devuan can survive the short term, over time it'll deviate more and 
more from Debian, and rely less and less on Debian packages. But in the short 
and medium term, it can use all those packages that are already there, already 
packaged, and that saves a lot of effort for what is currently a very small 
team with limited infrastructure.

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Re: [DNG] Brief OpenRC/Jessie Discussion on the linux-elitists lists

[Jaromil]

On Tue, 17 May 2016, Adam Borowski wrote:

> On Mon, May 16, 2016 at 09:27:43PM -0400, Steve Litt wrote:

> > > I sincerely wish the remedy of installing openrc and pinning
> > > systemd would work, but I'm sure it won't on the mid-long term.
> > It obviously can't. The same Debian leadership who voted "no" (or
> > was it "we don't need no steenkin GR") on supporting multiple
> > inits now determines whether the OpenRC package is maintained or
> > not. That's no foundation on which to build init choice freedom.

[...]

> Openrc is undermaintained in Debian not because of some cabal, but
> because of manpower issues: no one does real work on it currently,
> and its listed maintainers are hardly active.

I agree. Most of Debian is made by volunteers whose reliability will
be limited on the long-term. They are often students on their path to
find a job and disappear from Debian, or professionals on their way to
switch to OSX as soon as they get a laptop for free at work.

I'm sincerely not trying to offend anyone.  Among those students and
professionals are also people I respect and believe have good reasons
to move on, lacking time to attend Debian, which is not slavery nor is
paid work.

But how long can it go that way? and can such a project withstand an
avalanche like systemd? as a matter of fact, I think it didn't.

> The "Debian leadership" has pretty little power: the DPL manages
> finances, public relations and delegations (in practice).  The CTTE
> is hardly ever invoked, and their rulings on the systemd issue can't
> be considered evil:

first and foremost: a leader must take care of *everyone*, not just
the majority. and if the majority and the minority split 50%/50% as
they did, should mediate and make sure noone gets hurt, ultimately
also that the project doesn't gets hurt. a leader shall love everyone,
without condition, even his/her own enemies, or at least try to
understand them and well.

This is exactly the opposite that the Debian elected leaders have done
in the past years. The reasons why these bullies did what they did are
too complex and perhaps even too personal to debate here.

The term leader may even disgust some of us, me included. Because to
the contrary of how it is most often practiced, leadership is not made
for the glory of elected individuals. true leaders should give all
their energies in such a situation to mediate, keep together the
community. In the systemd row a true leader would have made sure there
was no split and not even a vote: if the community is split so much
then its up to the leader to find a third way, finally use that power
in a really useful way, instead of shopping around a talking head for
the press.

> The source of evil is the near-absolute power maintainers have on
> their packages.  Other than the really unwieldy stick of complaining
> to CTTE, there's no real way to fix issues directly.

I absolutely agree to this analysis. We need to make sure this doesn't
happens again in Devuan. I've been trapped myself in more than one
ridicolous situations, as upstream developer.

> The DDs are a diverse group, there's no "their mistake".

This is also true. Some DDs are also part of our community at Dyne.org
and may disagree both ways. There is a lot of differentiation. And
despite some people like to think of Debian as a Cathedral, it is not.


ciao


-- 
Denis Roio aka Jaromil   http://Dyne.org think  tank
  CTO and co-founder  free/open source developers
加密  6113 D89C A825 C5CE DD02 C872 73B3 5DA5 4ACB 7D10

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Re: [DNG] Brief OpenRC/Jessie Discussion on the linux-elitists lists

[Jaromil]

On Tue, 17 May 2016, emnin...@riseup.net wrote:

> Am Mon, 16 May 2016 13:41:14 +
> schrieb dev :
> 
> > Very well spoken. Debian leadership has demonstrated it's disinterest
> > in remaining "Free". There is another motive driving Debian
> > development now and Systemd will end up being the core of Debian. To
> > remove it will only mean uninstalling the entirety of the distro
> > itself.
> 
> Please do not take my question wrong (probably i am missing something):
> If it's that way, how can devuan then rely on debian as for packages
> etc.? At least in a forseeable future ... ?

we really are a *fork*. We are going to slowly but steadily detach
ourselves from Debian, starting from the things they break.

We are still weak now on the planning, considering Debian can make
priorities for us. However in future we'll focus more on Devuan as a
*base* distro, trying to develop a much better attitude towards
upstream and downstream. Applying some lessons learned in Debian's
governance, we shall see a lot of improvement on these regards.

ciao

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Re: [DNG] Brief OpenRC/Jessie Discussion on the linux-elitists lists

[Adam Borowski]

Another example, intentionally not systemd related:

If you use any of: backups, snapshots, nfs, etc, you'd want to have all
per-user "no data loss on failure/deletion" files in a common dir, such as
~/.cache, to make it easy to exclude or bind-mount.  Currently, such caches
are strewn around hundreds random dirs all around, often buried deeply like
~/.mozilla/firefox/1hommji5.default/Cache/ (this one fortunately recently
got fixed).  And upstreams are often hostile to requests to move those, for
a variety of reasons.

I proposed to make cache under ~/.cache an official policy, but met with
negative popular response (just on IRC, to judge whether to go forward). 
Turns out maintainers don't want to diverge from upstreams, especially when
it'd be burden of carrying and maintaining a patch.

So what's the proper response?  Crying mommy to the CTTE?
Axel Beckert instead created "unburden-home-dir", a package to move/symlink
such directories to a place of your choice, including reapplying such
symlinks on every login (in case they get lost), and even undoing the
changes.

Thus: while a hostile maintainer can make it harder for you, all it takes to
create a workaround is some will and effort.


Meow!
-- 
A tit a day keeps the vet away.
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Re: [DNG] Brief OpenRC/Jessie Discussion on the linux-elitists lists

[emninger]

Am Mon, 16 May 2016 13:41:14 +
schrieb dev :

> Very well spoken. Debian leadership has demonstrated it's disinterest
> in remaining "Free". There is another motive driving Debian
> development now and Systemd will end up being the core of Debian. To
> remove it will only mean uninstalling the entirety of the distro
> itself.

Please do not take my question wrong (probably i am missing something):
If it's that way, how can devuan then rely on debian as for packages
etc.? At least in a forseeable future ... ?

I think i understand the nucleus of the problem of init choice but i am
not a technician. And like many of you i found disgusting the manners
they disputed about systemd or alternatives (it was horrible in arch
and even more horrible in siduction. As i see it, the problem of the
supporters of systemd is, structurally/logically, they cannot accept
the idea of multiple init choices because it's contradictorial to the
concept of systemd).

Cheers.
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Re: [DNG] Brief OpenRC/Jessie Discussion on the linux-elitists lists

[Adam Borowski]

On Mon, May 16, 2016 at 09:27:43PM -0400, Steve Litt wrote:
> > I sincerely wish the remedy of installing openrc and pinning systemd
> > would work, but I'm sure it won't on the mid-long term.
> 
> It obviously can't. The same Debian leadership who voted "no" (or was
> it "we don't need no steenkin GR") on supporting multiple inits now
> determines whether the OpenRC package is maintained or not. That's no
> foundation on which to build init choice freedom.

Thoroughly no!  Please don't spread such misconceptions -- it's voicing such
views that brings the most ammunition to the pro-systemd faction.

Openrc is undermaintained in Debian not because of some cabal, but because
of manpower issues: no one does real work on it currently, and its listed
maintainers are hardly active.

True, systemd-related changes (like, in init-system-helpers) do add to this
burden, but that's not different from, say, burden on libpng using packages
caused by the png12->png16 migration.  This is a good part of maintainer's
duties.  You can't really blame the additional work for failures when even
the basic work isn't done.

I admit to be a part of the problem -- I should have stepped in to help
myself.  My excuses here are 1. not knowing much about init/rc systems, and
2. already having my hands in too many baskets, but I guess most of us can
say something of this kind.  End result is that there's no one to really
maintain openrc.  And sysvinit, for that matter.


The "Debian leadership" has pretty little power: the DPL manages finances,
public relations and delegations (in practice).  The CTTE is hardly ever
invoked, and their rulings on the systemd issue can't be considered evil:
* "systemd shall be the default for jessie (and by extension stretch)" --
  well, they did have to choose something.  That we are unhappy with the
  choice doesn't mean they're wrong in making it.
* "support for non-default init systems should be kept" -- isn't this what
  we want?

The source of evil is the near-absolute power maintainers have on their
packages.  Other than the really unwieldy stick of complaining to CTTE,
there's no real way to fix issues directly.  For example:
* the d-i team refused a well-tested patch fixing an obvious (as in, it
  doesn't work as documented) bug on debootstrap --exclude that would enable
  us to install sane inits without clumsy and bug-prone schemes that install
  systemd then remove it
* the utopia team keeps breaking their packages in non-systemd scenarios
  (non-systemd Linux, kfreebsd).  Both in jessie and current unstable you
  can't shutdown/reboot/suspend/hibernate from GUIs, etc.

> By the way Jaromil, several days ago I told Rick the exact same stuff
> you wrote here. If it were only systemd, and if the Debian DDs (boy do
> I hate that phrase) were willing to admit their mistake, we wouldn't be
> here. It's about Debian no longer being safe stewards of GNU/Linux.

The DDs are a diverse group, there's no "their mistake".  You may disagree
with the actions of certain individuals, and thus the way package X is
maintained, but other than a few cases (like d-i and utopia) this is
entirely because of no one bothering to do the work to make alternatives
viable.  Like, xfce has currently no non-pulseaudio volume control not
because their maintainers are evil but because no one wrote an ALSA backend
when gstreamer dropped volume control APIs (considering them out of scope).
All it takes to fix this is to actually write the code.

Disclaimer:
[ -z "$(gpg --keyring /usr/share/keyrings/debian-keyring.gpg \
  --no-default-keyring --list-keys kilob...@angband.pl)" ]
returns false.

-- 
A tit a day keeps the vet away.
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Re: [DNG] Brief OpenRC/Jessie Discussion on the linux-elitists lists

[KatolaZ]

On Mon, May 16, 2016 at 09:44:35PM -0400, Steve Litt wrote:

[cut]

> 
> What I'm about to say is barely germane to what you two both said, but
> I'll say it anyway.
> 
> I *never* felt comfortable in the Debian community, even before the
> "systemd thing". Those people were mean. They were arrogant. I'm not
> talking about the DDs, I'm talking of the rank and file. Never has any
> single mailing list generated so many entries in my .procmailrc. They'd
> spend days and days on threads putting each other down for stuff having
> nothing to do with Debian or Linux. They'd white-glove critique the
> questioning of newbies who just needed to get their computers running.
> They'd flame the daylights out of you, and then just before their
> signature they'd say "Cheers". Sy whaaat?

It might be due to my natural attitude, which forbids me from spitting
into the same plate I have been eating until 2 minutes ago, but I
can't say that I ever felt so bad in the Debian community, until maybe
2013.

Debian has made a massive contribution to the Free Software community,
and we shouldn't forget that without Debian we would not be here.

HND

KatolaZ

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Re: [DNG] Brief OpenRC/Jessie Discussion on the linux-elitists lists

[Steve Litt]

On Mon, 16 May 2016 08:26:11 -0500
dev  wrote:

> On 05/16/2016 05:12 AM, Jaromil wrote:
> > To all those who think this and other similar approaches may
> > invalidate the need of our fork: please consider we are not just
> > forking Debian because of systemd, but because the people who have
> > taken over the leadership of that distro have betrayed its mandate,
> > shown no respect of its Constitution and offer no reliability
> > anymore for any reasonable professional use of Debian.  
> 
> Very well spoken. Debian leadership has demonstrated it's disinterest
> in remaining "Free". There is another motive driving Debian
> development now and Systemd will end up being the core of Debian. To
> remove it will only mean uninstalling the entirety of the distro
> itself.

What I'm about to say is barely germane to what you two both said, but
I'll say it anyway.

I *never* felt comfortable in the Debian community, even before the
"systemd thing". Those people were mean. They were arrogant. I'm not
talking about the DDs, I'm talking of the rank and file. Never has any
single mailing list generated so many entries in my .procmailrc. They'd
spend days and days on threads putting each other down for stuff having
nothing to do with Debian or Linux. They'd white-glove critique the
questioning of newbies who just needed to get their computers running.
They'd flame the daylights out of you, and then just before their
signature they'd say "Cheers". Sy whaaat?

They also had a grossly inflated sense of their technical prowess. They
thought they were Stephan Hawking and Ken Thompson all rolled into one.
And they'd let you know of their superiority, even if they had to make
provably false technical statements to do so.

With a community like that, the abyssal behavior of the leadership and
the DDs is quite understandable. The rot had started from the rank and
file. The 5 months between the time I started using Debian and the time
I knew about the systemd fiasco, I never felt part of the Debian
"team".

The moment I moved to the modular-debian list, whose members later
moved en-mass to dng, I felt at home. This was my team. Still is.

And I have this other opinion. In my opinion, the smart and
constructive minority of the Debian project moved over here, where
something new and needed is being done. I doubt the current vestiges of
the Debian project can long hold on: Even if they have the tech chops,
which is nowhere near certain, they lack the people skills.

In 1964 a guy named Dobie Gray sang a song called "I'm In With the In
Crowd." That's how I feel being part of Devuan.

SteveT

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Re: [DNG] Brief OpenRC/Jessie Discussion on the linux-elitists lists

[Steve Litt]

On Mon, 16 May 2016 12:12:20 +0200
Jaromil  wrote:

> On Mon, 16 May 2016, emnin...@riseup.net wrote:
> 
> > As for the rest, i'd be interested in what you think about the
> > content of that discussion.  
> 
> I think it minimizes the problem systemd brings to Debian and the
> problem the current Debian leadership has with its own constituency.

Pre-cisely!

> I sincerely wish the remedy of installing openrc and pinning systemd
> would work, but I'm sure it won't on the mid-long term.

It obviously can't. The same Debian leadership who voted "no" (or was
it "we don't need no steenkin GR") on supporting multiple inits now
determines whether the OpenRC package is maintained or not. That's no
foundation on which to build init choice freedom.

> 
> To all those who think this and other similar approaches may
> invalidate the need of our fork: please consider we are not just
> forking Debian because of systemd, but because the people who have
> taken over the leadership of that distro have betrayed its mandate,
> shown no respect of its Constitution and offer no reliability anymore
> for any reasonable professional use of Debian.

Ex-actly!
> 
> I'm talking about the hooligans and politicians who are using systemd
> as an occasion to take over and bully away disagreement, 

Read their posts on mailing lists. They're disgusting.

> those who
> Bruce Perens defines the "anal-retentive policy wonks who believe they
> only make the distribution for themselves and have (perhaps without
> intending to) systematically marginalized Debian and made the project
> a whore to Ubuntu."
> https://linux.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=5852295=48188823
 
LOL, I think Parens was talking about us, not about the systemd
fanboiz. But whatever: Of all the Free Software movement pioneers, I
find Parens the least credible. I fall more on the side of RMS and ESR
(who fall on different sides of each other).

By the way Jaromil, several days ago I told Rick the exact same stuff
you wrote here. If it were only systemd, and if the Debian DDs (boy do
I hate that phrase) were willing to admit their mistake, we wouldn't be
here. It's about Debian no longer being safe stewards of GNU/Linux.

SteveT

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Re: [DNG] Brief OpenRC/Jessie Discussion on the linux-elitists lists

[dev]

On 05/16/2016 05:12 AM, Jaromil wrote:

To all those who think this and other similar approaches may
invalidate the need of our fork: please consider we are not just
forking Debian because of systemd, but because the people who have
taken over the leadership of that distro have betrayed its mandate,
shown no respect of its Constitution and offer no reliability anymore
for any reasonable professional use of Debian.


Very well spoken. Debian leadership has demonstrated it's disinterest in 
remaining "Free". There is another motive driving Debian development now 
and Systemd will end up being the core of Debian. To remove it will only 
mean uninstalling the entirety of the distro itself.

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Re: [DNG] Brief OpenRC/Jessie Discussion on the linux-elitists lists

[Edward Bartolo]

Hi,

I think, it is not about the term "linuxmafia" offending our feelings
but rather the bad connotations it brings with Linux. Linux is exactly
the opposite of oppression and abuse: Linux is about freedom.

Edward

On 16/05/2016, Jaromil  wrote:
> On Sun, 15 May 2016, Steve Litt wrote:
>> Rick has held the linuxmafia.com domain since at least 1999:
>
> thanks for the explanation Steve. I'm airing a personal irritation
> which is almost two decades old, as I used linuxmafia.org back when I
> was using Slackware and Debian didn't even existed. I'm glad at least
> the .org doesn't exist anymore. I can't perceive any good connotation
> of that term, just mystifications by people who don't know what it
> means and I wish them they'll never know.
>
> ciao
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Re: [DNG] Brief OpenRC/Jessie Discussion on the linux-elitists lists

[Jaromil]

On Sun, 15 May 2016, Steve Litt wrote:
> Rick has held the linuxmafia.com domain since at least 1999:

thanks for the explanation Steve. I'm airing a personal irritation
which is almost two decades old, as I used linuxmafia.org back when I
was using Slackware and Debian didn't even existed. I'm glad at least
the .org doesn't exist anymore. I can't perceive any good connotation
of that term, just mystifications by people who don't know what it
means and I wish them they'll never know.

ciao
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Re: [DNG] Brief OpenRC/Jessie Discussion on the linux-elitists lists

[Edward Bartolo]

Hi,

Jaromil wrote:
<< some of us are from places in which that word means prevarication,
violence, misery and corruption. I've never been entertained by such a
name, not even when it was about slackware packages. very bad taste.
>>

+Infinity

Edward

On 16/05/2016, Jaromil  wrote:
> On Mon, 16 May 2016, emnin...@riseup.net wrote:
>
>> As for the rest, i'd be interested in what you think about the
>> content of that discussion.
>
> I think it minimizes the problem systemd brings to Debian and the
> problem the current Debian leadership has with its own constituency.
> I sincerely wish the remedy of installing openrc and pinning systemd
> would work, but I'm sure it won't on the mid-long term.
>
> To all those who think this and other similar approaches may
> invalidate the need of our fork: please consider we are not just
> forking Debian because of systemd, but because the people who have
> taken over the leadership of that distro have betrayed its mandate,
> shown no respect of its Constitution and offer no reliability anymore
> for any reasonable professional use of Debian.
>
> I'm talking about the hooligans and politicians who are using systemd
> as an occasion to take over and bully away disagreement, those who
> Bruce Perens defines the "anal-retentive policy wonks who believe they
> only make the distribution for themselves and have (perhaps without
> intending to) systematically marginalized Debian and made the project
> a whore to Ubuntu."
> https://linux.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=5852295=48188823
>
> ciao
>
>
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Re: [DNG] Brief OpenRC/Jessie Discussion on the linux-elitists lists

[Jaromil]

On Mon, 16 May 2016, emnin...@riseup.net wrote:

> As for the rest, i'd be interested in what you think about the
> content of that discussion.

I think it minimizes the problem systemd brings to Debian and the
problem the current Debian leadership has with its own constituency.
I sincerely wish the remedy of installing openrc and pinning systemd
would work, but I'm sure it won't on the mid-long term.

To all those who think this and other similar approaches may
invalidate the need of our fork: please consider we are not just
forking Debian because of systemd, but because the people who have
taken over the leadership of that distro have betrayed its mandate,
shown no respect of its Constitution and offer no reliability anymore
for any reasonable professional use of Debian.

I'm talking about the hooligans and politicians who are using systemd
as an occasion to take over and bully away disagreement, those who
Bruce Perens defines the "anal-retentive policy wonks who believe they
only make the distribution for themselves and have (perhaps without
intending to) systematically marginalized Debian and made the project
a whore to Ubuntu."
https://linux.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=5852295=48188823

ciao


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Re: [DNG] Brief OpenRC/Jessie Discussion on the linux-elitists lists

[KatolaZ]

On Mon, May 16, 2016 at 11:39:38AM +0200, emnin...@riseup.net wrote:
> As for me, i understand those who are hurted by the use of the term
> mafia (one half of my family is from "there" ;) ), but i also
> understand the may be improper but innocent use of that term in
> a different social and cultural context. 
> 
> May be it's a good way to try to understand the reasons of the "other"
> before getting offended? At least that's what i think is necessary in
> a global world (and not only there).

Believe, there is nothing that can offend me :)

> 
> As for the rest, i'd be interested in what you think about the content
> of that discussion.
> 

About the link to the without-systemd.org wiki? Well, it has been
floating around in this ML for about 18 months now... :)

Concerning OpenRC, I personally don't care. The most important thing
is to provide an alternative able to contain the damage done by
systemd, which is eating up all the low-lever userspace. I believe I'd
probably remain with sysvinit anyway, since I have never felt the need
for anything more than that (maybe for something less, instead).

Devuan is giving people the freedom to choose, and this is why I am
here.

PDSCE

KatolaZ

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Re: [DNG] Brief OpenRC/Jessie Discussion on the linux-elitists lists

[emninger]

As for me, i understand those who are hurted by the use of the term
mafia (one half of my family is from "there" ;) ), but i also
understand the may be improper but innocent use of that term in
a different social and cultural context. 

May be it's a good way to try to understand the reasons of the "other"
before getting offended? At least that's what i think is necessary in
a global world (and not only there).

As for the rest, i'd be interested in what you think about the content
of that discussion.

Cheers

 
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Re: [DNG] Brief OpenRC/Jessie Discussion on the linux-elitists lists

[Adam Borowski]

On Mon, May 16, 2016 at 08:03:58AM +0100, KatolaZ wrote:
> On Sun, May 15, 2016 at 08:38:26PM -0400, Steve Litt wrote:
> > On Mon, 16 May 2016 01:18:34 +0200
> > Florian Zieboll  wrote:
> > > On Sun, 15 May 2016 23:22:07 +0200
> > > Jaromil  wrote:
> > > > prevarication, violence, misery and corruption  
> > 
> > Let me say it succinctly: I think Rick probably meant something like
> > "toughguys" or "mob" rather than anything criminal.
> 
> That's probably because Hollywood has transformed the term "mafia" in
> a piece of the American folklore, and in a cool, easy stereotype for
> Sicily and Sicilians. If you were born where the real mafia has killed
> thousand of real people with real guns and real bombs, and has
> strangled entire sectors of society with real racketing and real
> mobbing, you would probably agree that linux and mafia have very
> little in common, and you would feel the same bitter disgust many of
> us have felt since the website was announced, back in the days.

It's not the first time this happened.  For example, the word "pirate",
originally a bandit and murderer (and in places like Somalia, still current!)
yet nowadays its more widespread meaning is "culture spreading activist"[1]
(not just copyright, also, eg, radio), a term of pride for many of us.

[1]. The MAFIAA[2] defines that differently.
[2]. And here, we're close to the original meaning.

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Re: [DNG] Brief OpenRC/Jessie Discussion on the linux-elitists lists

[KatolaZ]

On Sun, May 15, 2016 at 08:38:26PM -0400, Steve Litt wrote:
> On Mon, 16 May 2016 01:18:34 +0200
> Florian Zieboll  wrote:
> 
> > On Sun, 15 May 2016 23:22:07 +0200
> > Jaromil  wrote:
> > 
> > > prevarication, violence, misery and corruption  
> > 
> > Depending on one's personal history,
> 
> Let me say it succinctly: I think Rick probably meant something like
> "toughguys" or "mob" rather than anything criminal.
> 
> If I had a time machine, I'd go back to when he was thinking of buying
> that domain (they cost $100 back then) and try to convince him not to
> buy it. But of course that's hindsight. Before Jaromil's post I'd
> never thought about that domain in any negative way. 
> 

That's probably because Hollywood has transformed the term "mafia" in
a piece of the American folklore, and in a cool, easy stereotype for
Sicily and Sicilians. If you were born where the real mafia has killed
thousand of real people with real guns and real bombs, and has
strangled entire sectors of society with real racketing and real
mobbing, you would probably agree that linux and mafia have very
little in common, and you would feel the same bitter disgust many of
us have felt since the website was announced, back in the days.

HND

KatolaZ

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Re: [DNG] Brief OpenRC/Jessie Discussion on the linux-elitists lists

[Steve Litt]

On Mon, 16 May 2016 01:18:34 +0200
Florian Zieboll  wrote:

> On Sun, 15 May 2016 23:22:07 +0200
> Jaromil  wrote:
> 
> > prevarication, violence, misery and corruption  
> 
> Depending on one's personal history,

Let me say it succinctly: I think Rick probably meant something like
"toughguys" or "mob" rather than anything criminal.

If I had a time machine, I'd go back to when he was thinking of buying
that domain (they cost $100 back then) and try to convince him not to
buy it. But of course that's hindsight. Before Jaromil's post I'd
never thought about that domain in any negative way. 

SteveT

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Re: [DNG] Brief OpenRC/Jessie Discussion on the linux-elitists lists

[Florian Zieboll]

On Sun, 15 May 2016 23:22:07 +0200
Jaromil  wrote:

> prevarication, violence, misery and corruption

Depending on one's personal history, there are many more possibilities
to associate these characteristics with: church, (political) executive,
family... just to name a few of them. 

Personally, I'd have given preference to e.g. "Linux Syndicate", but
I think that giving a new spin to a misused / biased combination of
letters can also be an act of emancipation^^

Florian
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Re: [DNG] Brief OpenRC/Jessie Discussion on the linux-elitists lists

[Daniel Reurich]

On 16/05/16 10:26, Steve Litt wrote:
> On Sun, 15 May 2016 23:22:07 +0200 Jaromil  wrote:
> 
>> On Sun, 15 May 2016, marc wrote:
>> 
>>> http://linuxmafia.com/kb/Debian/openrc-conversion.html
>> 
>> what's wrong with these guys to call themselves linuxmafia?
>> 
>> some of us are from places in which that word means prevarication, 
>> violence, misery and corruption. I've never been entertained by
>> such a name, not even when it was about slackware packages. very
>> bad taste.
> 
> Hi Jaromil,
> 
> I know Rick personally, and I'm very sure he meant no offense to 
> anybody. Although he can be rough on people he disagrees with, I've 
> never heard him say anything bad about groups of people nor imply in 
> any way that he's a hoodlum nor a criminal.
> 
> Rick has held the linuxmafia.com domain since at least 1999:
> 
> http://jhauser.dyndns.org:8080/archives/html/svlug/1999-02/msg00341.html
>
>  The word "mafia" isn't particularly insulting in the US: It reminds 
> Boomer-age Americans of the TV show "Untouchables", Frank Nitti, and
> Al Capone, the latter of which has come down through the ages as a
> sort of folk hero.
> 
> I see your point: If the URL were "linuxcrips.com" or 
> "linuxbloods.org", most Americans would react pretty much like you
> did. But I'm sure Rick meant no offense to anyone: It just doesn't
> have the same connotation in America.
> 
> SteveT
> 
Al Capone may be a cult classic villain, one that no doubt has become
infamous, but folk hero??

I don't think folk hero is really a justifiable term in that instance.
Typically "folk heros" are those who have risen from obscurity to hero
status for saving/rescuing the common people from a great calamity or
oppression.  How did Al Capone champion the common peoples cause and
what great benefit did he bestow on society his society to deserve being
called a "folk hero".

That American TV/Hollywood want to paint him in a different light shows
just how corrupt that industry is - not surprising really given their
hand in the drafting of terrible treaties such as the TPPA.

Here in NZ "mafia" is still a negative term associated with
racketeering, money laundering, extortion and protectionism.

Regardless of the intent of "Linuxmafia" as
group/organisation/publication,  I think that name is an oxymoron and
given the connotations globally, probably not likely to be particularly
well received in some regions.

Daniel.





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Re: [DNG] Brief OpenRC/Jessie Discussion on the linux-elitists lists

[Steve Litt]

On Sun, 15 May 2016 23:22:07 +0200
Jaromil  wrote:

> On Sun, 15 May 2016, marc wrote:
> 
> > http://linuxmafia.com/kb/Debian/openrc-conversion.html  
> 
> what's wrong with these guys to call themselves linuxmafia?
> 
> some of us are from places in which that word means prevarication,
> violence, misery and corruption. I've never been entertained by such a
> name, not even when it was about slackware packages. very bad taste.

Hi Jaromil,

I know Rick personally, and I'm very sure he meant no offense to
anybody. Although he can be rough on people he disagrees with, I've
never heard him say anything bad about groups of people nor imply in
any way that he's a hoodlum nor a criminal.

Rick has held the linuxmafia.com domain since at least 1999:

http://jhauser.dyndns.org:8080/archives/html/svlug/1999-02/msg00341.html

The word "mafia" isn't particularly insulting in the US: It reminds
Boomer-age Americans of the TV show "Untouchables", Frank Nitti, and Al
Capone, the latter of which has come down through the ages as a sort of
folk hero.

I see your point: If the URL were "linuxcrips.com" or
"linuxbloods.org", most Americans would react pretty much like you did.
But I'm sure Rick meant no offense to anyone: It just doesn't have the
same connotation in America.

SteveT

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Re: [DNG] Brief OpenRC/Jessie Discussion on the linux-elitists lists

[Jaromil]

On Sun, 15 May 2016, marc wrote:

> http://linuxmafia.com/kb/Debian/openrc-conversion.html

what's wrong with these guys to call themselves linuxmafia?

some of us are from places in which that word means prevarication,
violence, misery and corruption. I've never been entertained by such a
name, not even when it was about slackware packages. very bad taste.

ciao

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[DNG] Brief OpenRC/Jessie Discussion on the linux-elitists lists

[marc]

Hi

Just a quick note that there was a very brief discussion about removing
systemd from debian and replacing it with openRC on the linux-elitists
mailing lists. Probably the most interesting message ID 
was 20160514204536.ga26...@linuxmafia.com - contained two links
which might be interesting to some on the list:

http://without-systemd.org/wiki/index.php/Main_Page
http://linuxmafia.com/kb/Debian/openrc-conversion.html

regards

marc
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