Re: [DNG] Debian 8 Jessie can be installed without systemd.

[Jaromil]

On Tue, 31 May 2016, Hendrik Boom wrote:

> On Tue, May 31, 2016 at 09:44:49AM +0200, Jaromil wrote:
> > 
> > Later on when I discovered GCC to be a mature compiler I switched to
> > that and never left it ever after. I'm even wary of LVM and all its
> 
> Do you perhaps mean LLVM (low-level virtual machine) instead of LVM 
> (logical volume manater)? 

yes, lapsus

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Re: [DNG] Debian 8 Jessie can be installed without systemd.

[Dragan FOSS]

On 05/31/2016 09:05 PM, fsmithred wrote:

I do know two ways to install debian jessie without ever installing systemd:

1) Install TRIOS
2)
3)

:)
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Re: [DNG] Debian 8 Jessie can be installed without systemd.

[fsmithred]

On 05/31/2016 09:53 AM, Adam Borowski wrote:
> On Tue, May 31, 2016 at 07:48:09AM +0200, Edward Bartolo wrote:
>> I have just been informed Debian 8 (Jessie) can be installed without
>> systemd by using the command:
>>
>> preseed/late_command="in-target apt-get install -y sysvinit-core"
>>
>> URL:
>> https://debiantalk.wordpress.com/2015/10/04/you-can-install-debian-8-without-systemd/
> 
> It _does_ install systemd.  In fact, it does install systemd-sysv as well,
> then clumsily and incompletely uninstalls it.
> 

Yes. I have to wonder if the bloggers statement about feeling safer now
was meant as sarcasm.

I do know two ways to install debian jessie without ever installing systemd:
1. install wheezy, pin systemd and upgrade to jessie.
2. install devuan.

-fsr

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Re: [DNG] Debian 8 Jessie can be installed without systemd.

[Hendrik Boom]

On Tue, May 31, 2016 at 09:44:49AM +0200, Jaromil wrote:
> 
> Later on when I discovered GCC to be a mature compiler I switched to
> that and never left it ever after. I'm even wary of LVM and all its

Do you perhaps mean LLVM (low-level virtual machine) instead of LVM 
(logical volume manater)? 

> shiny new features, because I really trust the GNU C/C++ compilers to
> be properly licensed and always very reliable.

-- hendrik
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Re: [DNG] Debian 8 Jessie can be installed without systemd.

[Jaromil]

On Tue, 31 May 2016, Edward Bartolo wrote:

> I despise software lock-ins, therefore, I cannot accept a project like
> systemd that infiltrates everywhere and that makes many assumptions on
> how I run my OS basing on what the clueless often expect. I want my
> setup as I want it to be including vital parts of the OS.

OK. and yes Irrwan is right the article is old. I've seen other Debian
wiki documentation making the same argument, but with a warning sign
at least, so their documentation is honest enough. Still they don't
acknowledge the existance of Devuan anywhere, giving me visions of an
ostrich with its head into a spiraling hole in the ground.

> Jaromil, I do NOT advocate Systemd & Co. I have in the past painfully
> experienced software lock-in when I was still using Borland's Delphi.
> Delphi started to be exorbitantly priced. Furthermore, since Delphi
> was a Windows program, Borland  expected one to upgrade hardware in
> the manner MS Windows sheeple do. I understood the trap, and refuse to
> thread onto it resulting into myself not being able to code for
> several years. This forced me to learn C and C++ on my own.

how funny, we have a similar story back then. I also refused to go the
Delphi way, which costed me a lot more than money. I was pair coding a
with a good friend of mine, but then he went the Delphi way and we
split. I was mostly into Pascal and ASM at that time, then for a
higher language I choose for the Watcom C compiler and it was a good
choice to go the C way, which lasted longer and has grown wider.

Later on when I discovered GCC to be a mature compiler I switched to
that and never left it ever after. I'm even wary of LVM and all its
shiny new features, because I really trust the GNU C/C++ compilers to
be properly licensed and always very reliable.

My friend today is also into F/OSS, he works for Zend on the PHP
interpreter. So, seen from a later perspective, Delphi was really a
pricey waste of time.

> Long Life REAL Software Choice! That is why I contributed to Devuan
> with my time, effort and energy. I did NOT want wifi users being
> locked in through NOT being able to install a network manager as a
> result of refusing to use systemd.

you are right, your contribution is relevant.
Cheers to that - with a coffee mug, and good morning!


ciao
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Re: [DNG] Debian 8 Jessie can be installed without systemd.

[Edward Bartolo]

Hi,

Thanks Steve for clarifying my position that I cannot trust Debian.
For a very minimal Debian system what Debian claimed may be true, but
when it comes to setting up a useable system, Systemd & Co. sneaks in.

I despise software lock-ins, therefore, I cannot accept a project like
systemd that infiltrates everywhere and that makes many assumptions on
how I run my OS basing on what the clueless often expect. I want my
setup as I want it to be including vital parts of the OS.

Jaromil, I do NOT advocate Systemd & Co. I have in the past painfully
experienced software lock-in when I was still using Borland's Delphi.
Delphi started to be exorbitantly priced. Furthermore, since Delphi
was a Windows program, Borland  expected one to upgrade hardware in
the manner MS Windows sheeple do. I understood the trap, and refuse to
thread onto it resulting into myself not being able to code for
several years. This forced me to learn C and C++ on my own.

Long Life REAL Software Choice! That is why I contributed to Devuan
with my time, effort and energy. I did NOT want wifi users being
locked in through NOT being able to install a network manager as a
result of refusing to use systemd.


Edward

On 31/05/2016, Steve Litt  wrote:
> On Tue, 31 May 2016 08:50:08 +0200
> Jaromil  wrote:
>
>> dear Edward,
>>
>> On Tue, 31 May 2016, Edward Bartolo wrote:
>>
>> > I have just been informed Debian 8 (Jessie) can be installed without
>> > systemd by using the command: preseed/late_command="in-target
>> > apt-get install -y sysvinit-core"
>>
>> interesting that this is still the default and hypocritical answer
>> from Debian. IMHO it is rather irresponsible of them to give that
>> answer to users. They should point to Devuan instead.
>>
>> Anyway, please keep in mind that Debian gives no warranty on the
>> maintenance of sysvinit scripts, while several sysvinit related
>> packages are unmaintained.
>>
>> If you still trust Debian's leadership to act in your interest after
>> the GR vote, I recommend you try it and use it for a while, then be so
>> kind to let us know how it goes.
>
> I don't think Edward meant that Debian's OK just because it can
> currently be installed sans-systemd, or that he trusts Debian. I think
> it was just a comment on what he'd heard.
>
> A quick search of my Debian-User archives indicates Edward wasn't on
> that mailing list when the Debian project showed its true colors, so
> he might not know just how snaky they are.
>
> I like the three points you raise in your three paragraphs:
>
> 1) Debian should just point to Devuan for those wanting sans-systemd
>
> 2) Debian is a poor basket in which to keep one's sans-systemd assets
>
> 3) The Debian project has real problems, morally and intellectually.
>
> Thanks,
>
> SteveT
>
> Steve Litt
> May 2016 featured book: Rapid Learning for the 21st Century
> http://www.troubleshooters.com/rl21
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Re: [DNG] Debian 8 Jessie can be installed without systemd.

[Irrwahn]

On Tue, 31 May 2016 08:50:08 +0200, Jaromil wrote:
> On Tue, 31 May 2016, Edward Bartolo wrote:
>
>> I have just been informed Debian 8 (Jessie) can be installed without
>> systemd by using the command: preseed/late_command="in-target
>> apt-get install -y sysvinit-core"
> 
> interesting that this is still the default and hypocritical answer
> from Debian. IMHO it is rather irresponsible of them to give that
> answer to users. They should point to Devuan instead.
[...]

Err, guys: That article was posted on October 4, 2015, and on a site 
apparently not even affiliated with the Debian project. Just saying.

Regards
Urban

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Re: [DNG] Debian 8 Jessie can be installed without systemd.

[Steve Litt]

On Tue, 31 May 2016 08:50:08 +0200
Jaromil  wrote:

> dear Edward,
> 
> On Tue, 31 May 2016, Edward Bartolo wrote:
> 
> > I have just been informed Debian 8 (Jessie) can be installed without
> > systemd by using the command: preseed/late_command="in-target
> > apt-get install -y sysvinit-core"  
> 
> interesting that this is still the default and hypocritical answer
> from Debian. IMHO it is rather irresponsible of them to give that
> answer to users. They should point to Devuan instead.
> 
> Anyway, please keep in mind that Debian gives no warranty on the
> maintenance of sysvinit scripts, while several sysvinit related
> packages are unmaintained.
> 
> If you still trust Debian's leadership to act in your interest after
> the GR vote, I recommend you try it and use it for a while, then be so
> kind to let us know how it goes.

I don't think Edward meant that Debian's OK just because it can
currently be installed sans-systemd, or that he trusts Debian. I think
it was just a comment on what he'd heard.

A quick search of my Debian-User archives indicates Edward wasn't on
that mailing list when the Debian project showed its true colors, so
he might not know just how snaky they are.

I like the three points you raise in your three paragraphs:

1) Debian should just point to Devuan for those wanting sans-systemd

2) Debian is a poor basket in which to keep one's sans-systemd assets

3) The Debian project has real problems, morally and intellectually.

Thanks,

SteveT

Steve Litt 
May 2016 featured book: Rapid Learning for the 21st Century
http://www.troubleshooters.com/rl21
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Re: [DNG] Debian 8 Jessie can be installed without systemd.

[Jaromil]

dear Edward,

On Tue, 31 May 2016, Edward Bartolo wrote:

> I have just been informed Debian 8 (Jessie) can be installed without
> systemd by using the command: preseed/late_command="in-target
> apt-get install -y sysvinit-core"

interesting that this is still the default and hypocritical answer
from Debian. IMHO it is rather irresponsible of them to give that
answer to users. They should point to Devuan instead.

Anyway, please keep in mind that Debian gives no warranty on the
maintenance of sysvinit scripts, while several sysvinit related
packages are unmaintained.

If you still trust Debian's leadership to act in your interest after
the GR vote, I recommend you try it and use it for a while, then be so
kind to let us know how it goes.

ciao

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[DNG] Debian 8 Jessie can be installed without systemd.

[Edward Bartolo]

Hi All,

I have just been informed Debian 8 (Jessie) can be installed without
systemd by using the command:

preseed/late_command="in-target apt-get install -y sysvinit-core"

URL:
https://debiantalk.wordpress.com/2015/10/04/you-can-install-debian-8-without-systemd/

Edward
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