Re: [DNG] Debian dev takes a break from packaging systemd

[Didier Kryn]

Le 23/01/2019 à 21:22, chillfan--- via Dng a écrit :

"You seem to suggest that we should never change any user visible detail. I think 
this user rule was in error, and it worked for a while by luck, and now it doesn't. This 
happens all the time."



    I don't know why the relationship between a Debian maintainer and 
the upstream developper group has gone so bad, but the reason cannot be 
just a re-interpretation of the Udev API.


    Keeping backward compatibility forever has always been what 
characterizes best Win$. In Linux, the kernel's userspace interface is 
very stable, but not totally. New features are added and old ones change 
slowly, the libc hiding some changes.


    Udev is a relatively young (a dozen years) subsystem which has 
replaced a few failed attempts to implement hotplugging. It is an 
important part of the OS, but I find normal that it evolves and the 
interpretation of the rules has to be clarified.


    So, yes, "this happens all the time" and most users don't see it 
because it is managed by distros.


            Didier


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Re: [DNG] Debian dev takes a break from packaging systemd

[chillfan--- via Dng]

My favourite comment has to be: 
https://github.com/systemd/systemd/issues/11436#issuecomment-454546312

"You seem to suggest that we should never change any user visible detail. I 
think this user rule was in error, and it worked for a while by luck, and now 
it doesn't. This happens all the time."

A configuration worked by luck or was it a bug? Perhaps consulting your daily 
horoscope will let you know if your user configurations will work. Apparently 
that also happens _all_ the time. I wonder if they mean all other software in 
debian or just systemd.

Cheers,

chillfan

‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐
On Monday, January 21, 2019 11:42 PM, Alessandro Selli 
 wrote:

> On 22/01/19 at 00:08, wirelessduck--- via Dng wrote:
> 

> > https://soylentnews.org/article.pl?sid=19/01/21/042251
> > 

> > “Michael Biebl, long-time maintainer of systemd for Debian (2010 or 
> > earlier, based on changelog.Debian.gz), is taking undetermined holidays 
> > from packaging it.”
> > 

> > “Will stop maintaining systemd in debian for a while.
> > 

> > What's going on is just too stupid/crazy.”
> 

> This takes place after he discussed a bug in which he expected systemd to 
> respect local settings, and not rename network devices:
> 

> > > > @yuwata a default policy like /lib/systemd/network/99-default.link 
> > > > should never trump explicit user configuration.
> 

> Later he seems surprised about how things roll there:
> 

> > > > I'm amazed that I have to point this out
> 

>   Yes, it's amazing.
> 

>   Even more amazing is that such a software was almost universally adopted as 
> a key piece of the OS.
> 

> -- 

> Alessandro Selli 
> VOIP SIP: dhatarat...@ekiga.net
> Chiave firma e cifratura PGP/GPG signing and encoding key:
>   BA651E4050DDFC31E17384BABCE7BD1A1B0DF2AE



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Re: [DNG] Debian dev takes a break from packaging systemd

[Tomasz Torcz]

On Tue, Jan 22, 2019 at 12:42:15AM +0100, Alessandro Selli wrote:
> 
> Later he seems surprised about how things roll there:
> 
> > I'm amazed that I have to point this out
> >
>   Yes, it's amazing.
>   Even more amazing is that such a software was almost universally
> adopted as a key piece of the OS.

  And this:
“I think this user rule was in error, and it worked for a while by luck,
and now it doesn't. This happens all the time.”


-- 
Tomasz TorczOnce you've read the dictionary,
xmpp: zdzich...@chrome.pl   every other book is just a remix.
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Re: [DNG] Debian dev takes a break from packaging systemd

[Arnt Karlsen]

On Mon, 21 Jan 2019 19:49:38 -0500, Hendrik wrote in message 
<20190122004938.yj3hqqnebeomx...@topoi.pooq.com>:

> On Tue, Jan 22, 2019 at 12:42:15AM +0100, Alessandro Selli wrote:
> > On 22/01/19 at 00:08, wirelessduck--- via Dng wrote:  
> > > https://soylentnews.org/article.pl?sid=19/01/21/042251
> > >
> > > “Michael Biebl, long-time maintainer of systemd for Debian (2010
> > > or earlier, based on changelog.Debian.gz), is taking undetermined
> > > holidays from packaging it.”
> > >
> > > “Will stop maintaining systemd in debian for a while.
> > >
> > > What's going on is just too stupid/crazy.”
> > >  
> > 
> > This takes place after he discussed a bug
> > 
> > in which he expected systemd to respect local settings, and not
> > rename network devices:
> >   
> > > @yuwata a default policy like
> > > /lib/systemd/network/99-default.link should never trump
> > > explicit user configuration.
> > >  
> > 
> > Later he seems surprised about how things roll there:
> >   
> > > I'm amazed that I have to point this out
> > >  
> > 
> > 
> >   Yes, it's amazing.
> > 
> >   Even more amazing is that such a software was almost universally
> > adopted as a key piece of the OS.  
> 
> Even Poettering eventually says that the issue
> requires more thought.

...like these issues?: ;o)
https://security-tracker.debian.org/tracker/source-package/systemd
https://qa.debian.org/developer.php?email=pkg-systemd-maintainers%40lists.alioth.debian.org
https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/pkgreport.cgi?src=systemd=no
https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/pkgreport.cgi?src=systemd=yes
https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/pkgreport.cgi?pkg=systemd

..this, I find amazing: 8o)
https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/pkgreport.cgi?package=systemd-journal-remote
https://packages.debian.org/search?keywords=systemd-journal-remote

..now that everyone in Debian has more experience with the alleged init
systems, maybe a new init system vote in Debian?  
Or am I getting too satyrically political again? ;o)

..I got curious enough to take a look at my debian user mail list
folder, which had some 85000 unread posts since my last dive there,
it _used_ to be _high_ traffic, like in avalance:
https://lists.debian.org/stats/debian-user.png
https://lists.debian.org/stats/
https://web.archive.org/web/*/https://lists.debian.org/stats/

..checking post with "systemd" in the Subject line, I found 10 in 2018,
143 in 2017, 201 in 2016, 493 in 2015, 2760 in 2014, 98 in 2013 and 128
in 2012.  And I missed quite a few:
https://lists.debian.org/cgi-bin/search?P=systemd=or=Gdebian-user==100

-- 
..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt Karlsen
...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry...
  Scenarios always come in sets of three: 
  best case, worst case, and just in case.
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Re: [DNG] Debian dev takes a break from packaging systemd

[Hendrik Boom]

On Tue, Jan 22, 2019 at 12:42:15AM +0100, Alessandro Selli wrote:
> On 22/01/19 at 00:08, wirelessduck--- via Dng wrote:
> > https://soylentnews.org/article.pl?sid=19/01/21/042251
> >
> > “Michael Biebl, long-time maintainer of systemd for Debian (2010 or
> > earlier, based on changelog.Debian.gz), is taking undetermined
> > holidays from packaging it.”
> >
> > “Will stop maintaining systemd in debian for a while.
> >
> > What's going on is just too stupid/crazy.”
> >
> 
> This takes place after he discussed a bug
> 
> in which he expected systemd to respect local settings, and not rename
> network devices:
> 
> > @yuwata a default policy like
> > /lib/systemd/network/99-default.link should never trump
> > explicit user configuration.
> >
> 
> Later he seems surprised about how things roll there:
> 
> > I'm amazed that I have to point this out
> >
> 
> 
>   Yes, it's amazing.
> 
>   Even more amazing is that such a software was almost universally
> adopted as a key piece of the OS.

Even Poettering eventually says that the issue
requires more thought.

-- hendrik
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Re: [DNG] Debian dev takes a break from packaging systemd

[Alessandro Selli]

On 22/01/19 at 00:08, wirelessduck--- via Dng wrote:
> https://soylentnews.org/article.pl?sid=19/01/21/042251
>
> “Michael Biebl, long-time maintainer of systemd for Debian (2010 or
> earlier, based on changelog.Debian.gz), is taking undetermined
> holidays from packaging it.”
>
> “Will stop maintaining systemd in debian for a while.
>
> What's going on is just too stupid/crazy.”
>

This takes place after he discussed a bug

in which he expected systemd to respect local settings, and not rename
network devices:

> @yuwata a default policy like
> /lib/systemd/network/99-default.link should never trump
> explicit user configuration.
>

Later he seems surprised about how things roll there:

> I'm amazed that I have to point this out
>


  Yes, it's amazing.

  Even more amazing is that such a software was almost universally
adopted as a key piece of the OS.


-- 
Alessandro Selli 
VOIP SIP: dhatarat...@ekiga.net
Chiave firma e cifratura PGP/GPG signing and encoding key:
  BA651E4050DDFC31E17384BABCE7BD1A1B0DF2AE



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[DNG] Debian dev takes a break from packaging systemd

[wirelessduck--- via Dng]

https://soylentnews.org/article.pl?sid=19/01/21/042251

“Michael Biebl, long-time maintainer of systemd for Debian (2010 or earlier, 
based on changelog.Debian.gz), is taking undetermined holidays from packaging 
it.”

“Will stop maintaining systemd in debian for a while.
What's going on is just too stupid/crazy.”

—Tom___
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