Re: [DNG] Embedded devuan (was Re: Devuan with usr merge?)

[Didier Kryn]

Le 17/11/2021 à 22:31, Steve Litt a écrit :
> musl is a C library revealing various OS functionalities and various
> standard ways of doing things. It and libc are replacements for each
> other. musl makes smaller and more efficient programs, from what I
> understand.

    What is called libc in general is the C runtime library, which
provides various ordinary functions and a wrapper between C applications
and the OS. Years ago, Linux kernel people developped their own libc
because unsatisfied from glibc (the Gnu version of libc) and they called
it "libc" which was confusing but this was not for use by the kernel.
This library is now abandonned.

    The kernel itself does not make use of any library at all. The libc
is meant for userspace applications written in C. It is easier to
interface C runtime to the kernel because the kernel is also written in
C. Other languages come with their own runtime library. Ada runtime
library interfaces with the libc rather than directly with the kernel,
because the most dificult is already done.

    The most popular versions of libc are glibc, musl, uClibc, dietlibc.

--     Didier

   


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Re: [DNG] Embedded devuan (was Re: Devuan with usr merge?)

[Steve Litt]

o1bigtenor said on Wed, 17 Nov 2021 06:03:47 -0600

>On Tue, Nov 16, 2021 at 6:39 PM Steve Litt 
>wrote:
>
>> Didier Kryn said on Tue, 16 Nov 2021 14:36:23 +0100
>>
>>  
>> >Yes, very active and with pretty constructive exchanges and
>> >collaboration with Glibc. I'm on the mailing list. See
>> >http://musl.libc.org   
>>
>> LOL, from what I hear, a musl compiled Linux will not work with
>> systemd.
>>  
>
>
>Apologies - - - - - but 'what' is "a musl compiled Linux"?

Hi o1bigtenor,

musl is a C library revealing various OS functionalities and various
standard ways of doing things. It and libc are replacements for each
other. musl makes smaller and more efficient programs, from what I
understand.

Almost all of the Linux kernel and surrounding apps are written in C
and compiled by a C compiler using a library such as musl or libc. My
phrase "a musl compiled Linux" was meant to indicate a Linux
distribution compiled against musl instead of the usual glibc.

Void Linux is one of the few distros that offers a musl-compiled
version of Linux. I use their libc version as the path of least
resistance, but if I wanted to, I could have a musl compiled Void Linux.

SteveT

Steve Litt 
Spring 2021 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques of the Successful
Technologist http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques
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Re: [DNG] Embedded devuan (was Re: Devuan with usr merge?)

[Didier Kryn]

Le 17/11/2021 à 13:03, o1bigtenor via Dng a écrit :
>
>
> On Tue, Nov 16, 2021 at 6:39 PM Steve Litt  > wrote:
>
> Didier Kryn said on Tue, 16 Nov 2021 14:36:23 +0100
>
>
> >    Yes, very active and with pretty constructive exchanges and
> >collaboration with Glibc. I'm on the mailing list. See
> >http://musl.libc.org   >
>
> LOL, from what I hear, a musl compiled Linux will not work with
> systemd. 
>
>
>
> Apologies - - - - - but 'what' is "a musl compiled Linux"?
>
    The libc is an essential part of a distribution. It is not only a
pure library of facilities like string manipulation or mathematics but a
friendly interface to the OS. It provides an interface to all system
calls, plus the C standard IO, memory allocation, and other facilities.

The name Debian Gnu Linux tells that not only a big part of the
applications come from Gnu, but also the libc. All applications are
dynamically linked against glibc. A musl-compiled distro might be
called, say, Alpine Musl Linux, even if binutils and many other
applications (eg Emacs) are compiled from Gnu sources, but all are
linked against musl.

    This difference is systematic in the name of the compiler, eg
x86_64-musl-linux vs x86_64-gnu-linux.

    The incompatibility of musl and systemd is not due to an hostility
from musl author, but to a persistent attitude of systemd developpers of
bad programming. Musl is, by intention, hostile to bad programming:
everything specified as unknown behaviour (UB) by POSIX will end up
sooner or later by a crash. AFAIU systemd relies in some non-conformant
pecularities of glibc. The authors might easily correct that be won't,
which is their consistent attitude towards the rest of the world.

--     Didier


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Re: [DNG] Embedded devuan (was Re: Devuan with usr merge?)

[o1bigtenor via Dng]

On Tue, Nov 16, 2021 at 6:39 PM Steve Litt 
wrote:

> Didier Kryn said on Tue, 16 Nov 2021 14:36:23 +0100
>
>
> >Yes, very active and with pretty constructive exchanges and
> >collaboration with Glibc. I'm on the mailing list. See
> >http://musl.libc.org 
>
> LOL, from what I hear, a musl compiled Linux will not work with
> systemd.
>


Apologies - - - - - but 'what' is "a musl compiled Linux"?

TIA
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Re: [DNG] Embedded devuan (was Re: Devuan with usr merge?)

[Steve Litt]

Didier Kryn said on Tue, 16 Nov 2021 14:36:23 +0100

  
>    Yes, very active and with pretty constructive exchanges and
>collaboration with Glibc. I'm on the mailing list. See
>http://musl.libc.org 

LOL, from what I hear, a musl compiled Linux will not work with
systemd. Oh wait, Devuan doesn't have systemd.

SteveT

Steve Litt 
Spring 2021 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques of the Successful
Technologist http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques
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Re: [DNG] Embedded devuan (was Re: Devuan with usr merge?)

[onefang]

On 2021-11-16 14:36:23, Didier Kryn wrote:
> Le 16/11/2021 à 14:31, Dr. Nikolaus Klepp via Dng a écrit :
> > Anno domini 2021 Tue, 16 Nov 14:19:59 +0100
> >  Didier Kryn scripsit:
> >> Le 16/11/2021 à 12:15, onefang a écrit :
> >>> http://landley.net/aboriginal/about.html is what I used for my last
> >>> embedded Linux project.
> >>>
> >>> "Aboriginal Linux is a shell script that builds the smallest/simplest
> >>> linux system capable of rebuilding itself from source code. This
> >>> currently requires seven packages: linux, busybox, uClibc, binutils, gcc,
> >>> make, and bash."
> >>     Aboriginal is nice and Rob Landley is doing a great job. But are you
> >> sure about uClibc. I thought Aboriginal had switched to Musl years ago.
> >> uClibc is pretty far from POSIX compliance, and also from Glibc, which
> >> would make the system difficult to use as a build platform, although
> >> otherwise functional, of course. AFAIR, Rob Landley is developping his
> >> binutils mostly because of a disagreement with Busybox license.
> > Is it still under devlopment? The archives end 2016.
> >
>     Yes, very active and with pretty constructive exchanges and
> collaboration with Glibc. I'm on the mailing list. See
> http://musl.libc.org 

Think you are talking about two different things there.  Again quoting
from the website http://landley.net/aboriginal/news.html -

"April 30, 2017

-- End of Line --

Development of Aboriginal Linux has ended, replaced by mkroot."

He has much more to say on that topic, I suggest reading it.  Ah, he does
indeed comment on the license change of busybox in that.

My use of Aboriginal Linux predated that, so I can't comment on the
mkroot replacement.

BTW I did contribute to Aboriginal Linux, the x486 support was my work,
coz the embedded device I was using it for uses an x486 clone CPU.

-- 
A big old stinking pile of genius that no one wants
coz there are too many silver coated monkeys in the world.
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Re: [DNG] Embedded devuan (was Re: Devuan with usr merge?)

[onefang]

On 2021-11-16 14:19:59, Didier Kryn wrote:
> Le 16/11/2021 à 12:15, onefang a écrit :
> > http://landley.net/aboriginal/about.html is what I used for my last
> > embedded Linux project.
> >
> > "Aboriginal Linux is a shell script that builds the smallest/simplest
> > linux system capable of rebuilding itself from source code. This
> > currently requires seven packages: linux, busybox, uClibc, binutils, gcc,
> > make, and bash."
> 
>     Aboriginal is nice and Rob Landley is doing a great job. But are you
> sure about uClibc. I thought Aboriginal had switched to Musl years ago.

That bit in quotes was copy pasted directly from the web site, which is
why I wrapped it in quotes.

> uClibc is pretty far from POSIX compliance, and also from Glibc, which
> would make the system difficult to use as a build platform, although
> otherwise functional, of course. AFAIR, Rob Landley is developping his
> binutils mostly because of a disagreement with Busybox license.

Toybox is Rob's version of the busybox thing, and Rob used to be the main
busybox maintainer.  You should read his web site for more details.

-- 
A big old stinking pile of genius that no one wants
coz there are too many silver coated monkeys in the world.
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Re: [DNG] Embedded devuan (was Re: Devuan with usr merge?)

[Didier Kryn]

Le 16/11/2021 à 14:31, Dr. Nikolaus Klepp via Dng a écrit :
> Anno domini 2021 Tue, 16 Nov 14:19:59 +0100
>  Didier Kryn scripsit:
>> Le 16/11/2021 à 12:15, onefang a écrit :
>>> http://landley.net/aboriginal/about.html is what I used for my last
>>> embedded Linux project.
>>>
>>> "Aboriginal Linux is a shell script that builds the smallest/simplest
>>> linux system capable of rebuilding itself from source code. This
>>> currently requires seven packages: linux, busybox, uClibc, binutils, gcc,
>>> make, and bash."
>>     Aboriginal is nice and Rob Landley is doing a great job. But are you
>> sure about uClibc. I thought Aboriginal had switched to Musl years ago.
>> uClibc is pretty far from POSIX compliance, and also from Glibc, which
>> would make the system difficult to use as a build platform, although
>> otherwise functional, of course. AFAIR, Rob Landley is developping his
>> binutils mostly because of a disagreement with Busybox license.
> Is it still under devlopment? The archives end 2016.
>
    Yes, very active and with pretty constructive exchanges and
collaboration with Glibc. I'm on the mailing list. See
http://musl.libc.org 



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Re: [DNG] Embedded devuan (was Re: Devuan with usr merge?)

[Dr. Nikolaus Klepp via Dng]

Anno domini 2021 Tue, 16 Nov 14:19:59 +0100
 Didier Kryn scripsit:
> Le 16/11/2021 à 12:15, onefang a écrit :
> > http://landley.net/aboriginal/about.html is what I used for my last
> > embedded Linux project.
> >
> > "Aboriginal Linux is a shell script that builds the smallest/simplest
> > linux system capable of rebuilding itself from source code. This
> > currently requires seven packages: linux, busybox, uClibc, binutils, gcc,
> > make, and bash."
> 
>     Aboriginal is nice and Rob Landley is doing a great job. But are you
> sure about uClibc. I thought Aboriginal had switched to Musl years ago.
> uClibc is pretty far from POSIX compliance, and also from Glibc, which
> would make the system difficult to use as a build platform, although
> otherwise functional, of course. AFAIR, Rob Landley is developping his
> binutils mostly because of a disagreement with Busybox license.

Is it still under devlopment? The archives end 2016.

I like to use "buildroot" for my embedded systems.

Nik

> 
>     Here's a comparison of C libraries (by Rich felker, the author of
> musl). Unfortunately it is dated from 2014. Since that time, all
> librares should have made progress.
> http://www.etalabs.net/compare_libcs.html
> 
> 
> --     Didier
> 
> 
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the NSA, CIA ...
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Re: [DNG] Embedded devuan (was Re: Devuan with usr merge?)

[Didier Kryn]

Le 16/11/2021 à 12:15, onefang a écrit :
> http://landley.net/aboriginal/about.html is what I used for my last
> embedded Linux project.
>
> "Aboriginal Linux is a shell script that builds the smallest/simplest
> linux system capable of rebuilding itself from source code. This
> currently requires seven packages: linux, busybox, uClibc, binutils, gcc,
> make, and bash."

    Aboriginal is nice and Rob Landley is doing a great job. But are you
sure about uClibc. I thought Aboriginal had switched to Musl years ago.
uClibc is pretty far from POSIX compliance, and also from Glibc, which
would make the system difficult to use as a build platform, although
otherwise functional, of course. AFAIR, Rob Landley is developping his
binutils mostly because of a disagreement with Busybox license.

    Here's a comparison of C libraries (by Rich felker, the author of
musl). Unfortunately it is dated from 2014. Since that time, all
librares should have made progress.
http://www.etalabs.net/compare_libcs.html


--     Didier


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Re: [DNG] Embedded devuan (was Re: Devuan with usr merge?)

[onefang]

On 2021-11-16 11:40:28, k...@aspodata.se wrote:
> Didier Kryn:
> > Le 16/11/2021 à 01:44, Florian Zieboll via Dng a écrit :
> > > On Mon, 15 Nov 2021 21:19:08 +0100
> ...
> > > As I use to do a minimal *.bian install on my SoC hardware, which
> > > I afterwards move to the Devuan repositories, while keeping the
> > > related original "firmware" repository, I must confess that the
> > > whole "embedded"-thing is still somewhat unclear to me, at least
> > > regarding kernel and firmware updates. I'd be more than happy to
> > > get a hint towards an honest introduction to this topic.
> 
> If you are using embedded linux, you probably have an ip-connection to
> the hw and uboot as the fw/bootlooder/bios or what you prefer to call it.
> If you have an ip-connection, you can just ssh to the box and copy it to
> the right place and do whatever is needed.
>  You usually don't update the processor, embedded board or other fw 
> than uboot. If you want to do that you have to check the manufacturer
> documentation.
> 
> ...
> >     I wish to every Linux fan to live this adventure.
> 
>  Ack, here is example manufacturer documentation of the process:
> http://developer.embedian.com/display/LOS/SMARC+T335X
> 
> That hw is similar to the BeagleBoneBlack mentioned by Antoine,
> so if you start off the BBB, this one could be the next in your
> learning curve.

http://landley.net/aboriginal/about.html is what I used for my last
embedded Linux project.

"Aboriginal Linux is a shell script that builds the smallest/simplest
linux system capable of rebuilding itself from source code. This
currently requires seven packages: linux, busybox, uClibc, binutils, gcc,
make, and bash."

It builds a QEMU image you can boot into, and then you use the included
build system to build the rest of the stuff you need.  Once done, strip
out the build tools, dd the result to something your embedded system can
boot from.

My project was for a device that needed to be audited by the government,
including providing them with something they could use to build it
themselves.  Making it into a reproducible build was easy.  It passed the
audit.

For all of my Devuan systems I start from minimal debootstrap install,
chroot into that, then apt install the rest.

-- 
A big old stinking pile of genius that no one wants
coz there are too many silver coated monkeys in the world.
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[DNG] Embedded devuan (was Re: Devuan with usr merge?)

[karl]

Didier Kryn:
> Le 16/11/2021 à 01:44, Florian Zieboll via Dng a écrit :
> > On Mon, 15 Nov 2021 21:19:08 +0100
...
> > As I use to do a minimal *.bian install on my SoC hardware, which
> > I afterwards move to the Devuan repositories, while keeping the
> > related original "firmware" repository, I must confess that the
> > whole "embedded"-thing is still somewhat unclear to me, at least
> > regarding kernel and firmware updates. I'd be more than happy to
> > get a hint towards an honest introduction to this topic.

If you are using embedded linux, you probably have an ip-connection to
the hw and uboot as the fw/bootlooder/bios or what you prefer to call it.
If you have an ip-connection, you can just ssh to the box and copy it to
the right place and do whatever is needed.
 You usually don't update the processor, embedded board or other fw 
than uboot. If you want to do that you have to check the manufacturer
documentation.

...
>     I wish to every Linux fan to live this adventure.

 Ack, here is example manufacturer documentation of the process:
http://developer.embedian.com/display/LOS/SMARC+T335X

That hw is similar to the BeagleBoneBlack mentioned by Antoine,
so if you start off the BBB, this one could be the next in your
learning curve.

Regards,
/Karl Hammar

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