Re: [DNG] End of free open source software?
On Sat 15/May/2021 15:50:12 +0200 spiralofhope wrote: On Fri, 14 May 2021 14:27:15 +0200 "Enrico Weigelt, metux IT consult" wrote: On 09.05.21 08:33, tito via Dng wrote: So the first question that arises is: how could open source and free software projects ensure protection from damage up to data loss if actually even proprietary software comes with no warranty at all? >> Make it crystal clear, that our software is neither a product, nor service, nor anything near to any commercial thing, but instead just a piece of art, like a novel or a poem. A programming language used to write code is not different than the English an author uses to write a story. It would take some effort to explain, but programming and authoring do map to one another. For example, it's a long-time pursuit for many programmers to author more natural language-like readable code. On the other hand, the majority of people cannot write or read computer programs. Some barely understand the principles by which computers work. Yet, they use them, and at times may happen to depend on them for life-or-death matters. Should that people use free software? Actually, even programmers use a number of software packages without even bothering to download their sources. We may appreciate the syntax or the ease of use, but much of the poetry gets lost. I'd confess that I read code only in a few occasions. When there's not enough docs, when there's a malfunction, when I have to write code which interacts with that. Best Ale -- ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] End of free open source software?
On Fri, 14 May 2021 14:27:15 +0200 "Enrico Weigelt, metux IT consult" wrote: > On 09.05.21 08:33, tito via Dng wrote: > > > So the first question that arises is: > > how could open source and free software projects ensure > > protection from damage up to data loss if actually even proprietary > > software comes with no warranty at all? > > Make it crystal clear, that our software is neither a product, nor > service, nor anything near to any commercial thing, but instead just > a piece of art, like a novel or a poem. A programming language used to write code is not different than the English an author uses to write a story. It would take some effort to explain, but programming and authoring do map to one another. For example, it's a long-time pursuit for many programmers to author more natural language-like readable code. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] End of free open source software?
On 09.05.21 08:33, tito via Dng wrote: So the first question that arises is: how could open source and free software projects ensure protection from damage up to data loss if actually even proprietary software comes with no warranty at all? Make it crystal clear, that our software is neither a product, nor service, nor anything near to any commercial thing, but instead just a piece of art, like a novel or a poem. --mtx -- --- Hinweis: unverschlüsselte E-Mails können leicht abgehört und manipuliert werden ! Für eine vertrauliche Kommunikation senden Sie bitte ihren GPG/PGP-Schlüssel zu. --- Enrico Weigelt, metux IT consult Free software and Linux embedded engineering i...@metux.net -- +49-151-27565287 ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] End of free open source software?
On Sun, 9 May 2021 14:27:24 +0200, Dr. wrote in message <202105091427.24515.off...@klepp.biz>: > Anno domini 2021 Sun, 9 May 11:57:59 +0200 > Arnt Karlsen scripsit: > > On Sun, 9 May 2021 09:18:47 +0200, Dr. wrote in message > > <202105090918.47488.off...@klepp.biz>: > > > > > Hi! > > > > > > Anno domini 2021 Sun, 9 May 08:33:05 +0200 > > > tito via Dng scripsit: > > > > Hi to all, > > > > today while reading online my selection of international > > > > newspapers on the german www. faz.net I've found this little > > > > article which made my antennas vibrate, link is: > > > > > > > > https://www.faz.net/aktuell/wirtschaft/reform-der-produkthaftung-verbraucher-sollen-vor-schaeden-durch-softwarefehler-geschuetzt-werden-17330921.html > > > > > > > > > > Thats just bullshit bingo. > > > > ..so was The Donald and der Adolf. The good news here is, today's > > Germans have the experience and therefore much more wisdom to deal > > with such bullshit bingo to keep it from repeating itself, and to > > aim it somewhere useful and to fire up the French etc on it. > > Keep your eyes open. > > Sorry, the whole EU is going the totalitarian road nowadays - just to ..you read my "Germans" as "EUropeans"? ;o) I hear you, I voted "No!" on joining the EU in 1994 after watching Norw. premier Gro Harlem Brundtland telling us the Russians were somehow "so dangerous we have to join the EU" after shooting down the Russian democracy on take-off, turning down newly elected President Boris Yeltsin's plea for help with their first ever free parliament election, by telling him "to instead make use of the Supreme Soviet" on his visit in 1991, either to protect a very promising future high ranking secret agent, or to save her own ass. ..one thing is seeing things, the second thing is understanding what you see, the third thing is believing your own understanding of what you saw, the fourth thing is understanding what sort of country you live in... ;o) > name Kurz, Orban, Zensursula, CDU/CSD etc., all elected in a vote and > misuse their power to create totalitarian systems. That quoting from > FAZ is targeting $$$ companies, not FOSS. And that's the reason, why > this is just "hot air" - the said politian is from CDU which freely > translates to "not interested in citicens". ..like I said, keep your eyes open. -- ..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt Karlsen ...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry... Scenarios always come in sets of three: best case, worst case, and just in case. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] End of free open source software?
Anno domini 2021 Sun, 9 May 11:57:59 +0200 Arnt Karlsen scripsit: > On Sun, 9 May 2021 09:18:47 +0200, Dr. wrote in message > <202105090918.47488.off...@klepp.biz>: > > > Hi! > > > > Anno domini 2021 Sun, 9 May 08:33:05 +0200 > > tito via Dng scripsit: > > > Hi to all, > > > today while reading online my selection of international newspapers > > > on the german www. faz.net I've found this little article which > > > made my antennas vibrate, link is: > > > > > > https://www.faz.net/aktuell/wirtschaft/reform-der-produkthaftung-verbraucher-sollen-vor-schaeden-durch-softwarefehler-geschuetzt-werden-17330921.html > > > > > > > Thats just bullshit bingo. > > ..so was The Donald and der Adolf. The good news here is, today's > Germans have the experience and therefore much more wisdom to deal > with such bullshit bingo to keep it from repeating itself, and to > aim it somewhere useful and to fire up the French etc on it. > Keep your eyes open. Sorry, the whole EU is going the totalitarian road nowadays - just to name Kurz, Orban, Zensursula, CDU/CSD etc., all elected in a vote and misuse their power to create totalitarian systems. That quoting from FAZ is targeting $$$ companies, not FOSS. And that's the reason, why this is just "hot air" - the said politian is from CDU which freely translates to "not interested in citicens". Nik -- Please do not email me anything that you are not comfortable also sharing with the NSA, CIA ... ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] End of free open source software?
On 5/9/21 12:57 PM, Arnt Karlsen wrote: > On Sun, 9 May 2021 09:18:47 +0200, Dr. wrote in message > <202105090918.47488.off...@klepp.biz>: > >> Hi! >> >> Anno domini 2021 Sun, 9 May 08:33:05 +0200 >> tito via Dng scripsit: >>> Hi to all, >>> today while reading online my selection of international newspapers >>> on the german www. faz.net I've found this little article which >>> made my antennas vibrate, link is: >>> >>> https://www.faz.net/aktuell/wirtschaft/reform-der-produkthaftung-verbraucher-sollen-vor-schaeden-durch-softwarefehler-geschuetzt-werden-17330921.html >> >> Thats just bullshit bingo. > > ..so was The Donald and der Adolf. The good news here is, today's > Germans have the experience and therefore much more wisdom to deal > with such bullshit bingo to keep it from repeating itself, and to > aim it somewhere useful and to fire up the French etc on it. > Keep your eyes open. My guess would be that the bullshit bingo is an attempt to reframe the software liability question for the general public in a way that is more favorable to proprietary software. I would guess that all the current, and not so current, discussion has so far centered around the ideas floated by Dan Geer and Poul-Hennning Kamp. Dan Geer had this to say at Black Hat 2014: "Today the relevant legal concept is "product liability" and the fundamental formula is "If you make money selling something, then you better do it well, or you will be held responsible for the trouble it causes." For better or poorer, the only two products not covered by product liability today are religion and software, and software should not escape for much longer. Poul- Henning Kamp and I have a strawman proposal for how software liability regulation could be structured." - http://geer.tinho.net/geer.blackhat.6viii14.txt He continued onward to enumerate and clarify the reasoning behind each of three points towards a possible solution in regards to applying liability to software: "0. Consult criminal code to see if damage caused was due to intent or willfulness." ... "1. If you deliver your software with complete and buildable source code and a license that allows disabling any functionality or code the licensee decides, your liability is limited to a refund." ... "2. In any other case, you are liable for whatever damage your software causes when it is used normally." - http://geer.tinho.net/geer.blackhat.6viii14.txt Notably and intentionally there is a carve out in those points to not just protect Free and Open Source Software, but to actually promote it as it is a strong way to improve quality and thus safety. However, he accurately notes that the proprietary software houses will howl about it. I would guess that the bullshit bingo linked to in the original message is just that and small attempt at revisionism to restart the debate for the benefit of proprietary software by ignoring the past progress on the topic. /Lars -- Here is the full quote from that part of his transcript: " 3. Source code liability -- CHOICE Nat Howard said that "Security will always be exactly as bad as it can possibly be while allowing everything to still function,"[NH] but with each passing day, that "and still function" clause requires a higher standard. As Ken Thompson told us in his Turing Award lecture, there is no technical escape;[KT] in strict mathematical terms you neither trust a program nor a house unless you created it 100% yourself, but in reality most of us will trust a house built by a suitably skilled professional, usually we will trust it more than one we had built ourselves, and this even if we have never met the builder, or even if he is long since dead. The reason for this trust is that shoddy building work has had that crucial "or else ..." clause for more than 3700 years: If a builder builds a house for someone, and does not construct it properly, and the house which he built falls in and kills its owner, then the builder shall be put to death. -- Code of Hammurabi, approx 1750 B.C. Today the relevant legal concept is "product liability" and the fundamental formula is "If you make money selling something, then you better do it well, or you will be held responsible for the trouble it causes." For better or poorer, the only two products not covered by product liability today are religion and software, and software should not escape for much longer. Poul-Henning Kamp and I have a strawman proposal for how software liability regulation could be structured. ... 0. Consult criminal code to see if damage caused was due to intent or willfulness. ... We are only trying to assign liability for unintentionally caused damage, whether that's sloppy coding, insufficient testing, cost cutting, incomplete documentation, or just
Re: [DNG] End of free open source software?
On Sun, 9 May 2021 09:18:47 +0200, Dr. wrote in message <202105090918.47488.off...@klepp.biz>: > Hi! > > Anno domini 2021 Sun, 9 May 08:33:05 +0200 > tito via Dng scripsit: > > Hi to all, > > today while reading online my selection of international newspapers > > on the german www. faz.net I've found this little article which > > made my antennas vibrate, link is: > > > > https://www.faz.net/aktuell/wirtschaft/reform-der-produkthaftung-verbraucher-sollen-vor-schaeden-durch-softwarefehler-geschuetzt-werden-17330921.html > > > > Thats just bullshit bingo. ..so was The Donald and der Adolf. The good news here is, today's Germans have the experience and therefore much more wisdom to deal with such bullshit bingo to keep it from repeating itself, and to aim it somewhere useful and to fire up the French etc on it. Keep your eyes open. -- ..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt Karlsen ...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry... Scenarios always come in sets of three: best case, worst case, and just in case. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] End of free open source software?
Hi! Anno domini 2021 Sun, 9 May 08:33:05 +0200 tito via Dng scripsit: > Hi to all, > today while reading online my selection of international newspapers on > the german www. faz.net I've found this little article which made my > antennas vibrate, link is: > > https://www.faz.net/aktuell/wirtschaft/reform-der-produkthaftung-verbraucher-sollen-vor-schaeden-durch-softwarefehler-geschuetzt-werden-17330921.html Thats just bullshit bingo. Nik > > text in german is: > > Kunden sollen nach dem Willen der Verbraucherschutzministerkonferenz > (VSMK) künftig besser vor Schäden durch Softwarefehler geschützt > werden. Der Bund solle entsprechende Maßnahmen prüfen, sagte > Schleswig-Holsteins Verbraucherschutzminister Claus Christian Claussen > (CDU) nach dem Ende der Konferenz am Freitag. Zudem solle das > Produkthaftungsrecht künftig auch digitale Schäden umfassen, darunter > auch Datenverluste. > > Das Produkthaftungsgesetz basiere auf einer EU-Richtlinie von 1985 und > sei angesichts des technischen Fortschritts nicht mehr zeitgemäß, so > Claussen weiter - besonders mit Blick auf die wachsende Bedeutung von > Software im Vergleich zu Hardware. Clausen sagte: „Wir wollen, dass ein > verbraucherfreundliches, digitales Produkthaftungsrecht eingeführt > wird.“ Das müsse vom Bund auf den Weg gebracht werden. Er sei > zuversichtlich, dass die Verbraucherschutzminister-Konferenz den Bund > bittet, entsprechende Vorschläge zu machen. > > Auch die Überwachung des Lebensmittelhandels muss nach Claussens > Überzeugung an die aktuellen Entwicklungen angepasst werden. > Lebensmittel würden zunehmen über das Internet bestellt und nach Hause > geliefert. „Die klassischen Überwachungsmethoden greifen da natürlich > nicht durch.“ Auch hier solle die Bundesregierung tätig werden und > Rechtsgrundlagen schaffen. > > Rudimental google translation is: > > According to the wishes of the Conference of Consumer Protection > Ministers (VSMK), customers should be better protected from damage > caused by software errors in the future. The federal government should > examine appropriate measures, said Schleswig-Holstein's consumer > protection minister Claus Christian Claussen (CDU) after the end of the > conference on Friday. In addition, product liability law should also > include digital damage in the future, including data loss. > > According to Claussen, the product liability law is based on an EU > directive from 1985 and is no longer up-to-date in view of technical > progress - especially with a view to the growing importance of software > compared to hardware. Clausen said: "We want consumer-friendly, digital > product liability law to be introduced." That must be initiated by the > federal government. He is confident that the consumer protection > ministers' conference will ask the federal government to make > appropriate proposals. > > According to Claussens, the monitoring of the food trade must also be > adapted to current developments. Groceries are increasingly being > ordered online and delivered to your home. “Of course, the classic > monitoring methods do not work.” Here, too, the federal government > should act and create a legal basis. > > So the first question that arises is: > how could open source and free software projects ensure > protection from damage up to data loss if actually even proprietary > software comes with no warranty at all? > > For example Microsoft: > > https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/legal/windows-server/system-insights-eula > > DISCLAIMER OF WARRANTY. THE SOFTWARE IS LICENSED “AS IS.” YOU BEAR THE > RISK OF USING IT. MICROSOFT GIVES NO EXPRESS WARRANTIES, GUARANTEES, OR > CONDITIONS. TO THE EXTENT PERMITTED UNDER APPLICABLE LAWS, MICROSOFT > EXCLUDES ALL IMPLIED WARRANTIES, INCLUDING MERCHANTABILITY, FITNESS > FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE, AND NON-INFRINGEMENT. > > Ciao, > Tito > > > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng > -- Please do not email me anything that you are not comfortable also sharing with the NSA, CIA ... ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] End of free open source software?
sorry, but this subject reads like some yellow-press, bringing end-of-the-world, out of an irrelevant wish? (=speculations, wishes and rumors) and it doesn't even mention FOSS anywhere... so, this all reads like BS (imho), not byuing it. 2c, d. Στις 9/5/21 9:33 π.μ., ο/η tito via Dng έγραψε: Hi to all, today while reading online my selection of international newspapers on the german www. faz.net I've found this little article which made my antennas vibrate, link is: https://www.faz.net/aktuell/wirtschaft/reform-der-produkthaftung-verbraucher-sollen-vor-schaeden-durch-softwarefehler-geschuetzt-werden-17330921.html text in german is: Kunden sollen nach dem Willen der Verbraucherschutzministerkonferenz (VSMK) künftig besser vor Schäden durch Softwarefehler geschützt werden. Der Bund solle entsprechende Maßnahmen prüfen, sagte Schleswig-Holsteins Verbraucherschutzminister Claus Christian Claussen (CDU) nach dem Ende der Konferenz am Freitag. Zudem solle das Produkthaftungsrecht künftig auch digitale Schäden umfassen, darunter auch Datenverluste. Das Produkthaftungsgesetz basiere auf einer EU-Richtlinie von 1985 und sei angesichts des technischen Fortschritts nicht mehr zeitgemäß, so Claussen weiter - besonders mit Blick auf die wachsende Bedeutung von Software im Vergleich zu Hardware. Clausen sagte: „Wir wollen, dass ein verbraucherfreundliches, digitales Produkthaftungsrecht eingeführt wird.“ Das müsse vom Bund auf den Weg gebracht werden. Er sei zuversichtlich, dass die Verbraucherschutzminister-Konferenz den Bund bittet, entsprechende Vorschläge zu machen. Auch die Überwachung des Lebensmittelhandels muss nach Claussens Überzeugung an die aktuellen Entwicklungen angepasst werden. Lebensmittel würden zunehmen über das Internet bestellt und nach Hause geliefert. „Die klassischen Überwachungsmethoden greifen da natürlich nicht durch.“ Auch hier solle die Bundesregierung tätig werden und Rechtsgrundlagen schaffen. Rudimental google translation is: According to the wishes of the Conference of Consumer Protection Ministers (VSMK), customers should be better protected from damage caused by software errors in the future. The federal government should examine appropriate measures, said Schleswig-Holstein's consumer protection minister Claus Christian Claussen (CDU) after the end of the conference on Friday. In addition, product liability law should also include digital damage in the future, including data loss. According to Claussen, the product liability law is based on an EU directive from 1985 and is no longer up-to-date in view of technical progress - especially with a view to the growing importance of software compared to hardware. Clausen said: "We want consumer-friendly, digital product liability law to be introduced." That must be initiated by the federal government. He is confident that the consumer protection ministers' conference will ask the federal government to make appropriate proposals. According to Claussens, the monitoring of the food trade must also be adapted to current developments. Groceries are increasingly being ordered online and delivered to your home. “Of course, the classic monitoring methods do not work.” Here, too, the federal government should act and create a legal basis. So the first question that arises is: how could open source and free software projects ensure protection from damage up to data loss if actually even proprietary software comes with no warranty at all? For example Microsoft: https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/legal/windows-server/system-insights-eula DISCLAIMER OF WARRANTY. THE SOFTWARE IS LICENSED “AS IS.” YOU BEAR THE RISK OF USING IT. MICROSOFT GIVES NO EXPRESS WARRANTIES, GUARANTEES, OR CONDITIONS. TO THE EXTENT PERMITTED UNDER APPLICABLE LAWS, MICROSOFT EXCLUDES ALL IMPLIED WARRANTIES, INCLUDING MERCHANTABILITY, FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE, AND NON-INFRINGEMENT. Ciao, Tito ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng OpenPGP_signature Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] End of free open source software?
Hi to all, today while reading online my selection of international newspapers on the german www. faz.net I've found this little article which made my antennas vibrate, link is: https://www.faz.net/aktuell/wirtschaft/reform-der-produkthaftung-verbraucher-sollen-vor-schaeden-durch-softwarefehler-geschuetzt-werden-17330921.html text in german is: Kunden sollen nach dem Willen der Verbraucherschutzministerkonferenz (VSMK) künftig besser vor Schäden durch Softwarefehler geschützt werden. Der Bund solle entsprechende Maßnahmen prüfen, sagte Schleswig-Holsteins Verbraucherschutzminister Claus Christian Claussen (CDU) nach dem Ende der Konferenz am Freitag. Zudem solle das Produkthaftungsrecht künftig auch digitale Schäden umfassen, darunter auch Datenverluste. Das Produkthaftungsgesetz basiere auf einer EU-Richtlinie von 1985 und sei angesichts des technischen Fortschritts nicht mehr zeitgemäß, so Claussen weiter - besonders mit Blick auf die wachsende Bedeutung von Software im Vergleich zu Hardware. Clausen sagte: „Wir wollen, dass ein verbraucherfreundliches, digitales Produkthaftungsrecht eingeführt wird.“ Das müsse vom Bund auf den Weg gebracht werden. Er sei zuversichtlich, dass die Verbraucherschutzminister-Konferenz den Bund bittet, entsprechende Vorschläge zu machen. Auch die Überwachung des Lebensmittelhandels muss nach Claussens Überzeugung an die aktuellen Entwicklungen angepasst werden. Lebensmittel würden zunehmen über das Internet bestellt und nach Hause geliefert. „Die klassischen Überwachungsmethoden greifen da natürlich nicht durch.“ Auch hier solle die Bundesregierung tätig werden und Rechtsgrundlagen schaffen. Rudimental google translation is: According to the wishes of the Conference of Consumer Protection Ministers (VSMK), customers should be better protected from damage caused by software errors in the future. The federal government should examine appropriate measures, said Schleswig-Holstein's consumer protection minister Claus Christian Claussen (CDU) after the end of the conference on Friday. In addition, product liability law should also include digital damage in the future, including data loss. According to Claussen, the product liability law is based on an EU directive from 1985 and is no longer up-to-date in view of technical progress - especially with a view to the growing importance of software compared to hardware. Clausen said: "We want consumer-friendly, digital product liability law to be introduced." That must be initiated by the federal government. He is confident that the consumer protection ministers' conference will ask the federal government to make appropriate proposals. According to Claussens, the monitoring of the food trade must also be adapted to current developments. Groceries are increasingly being ordered online and delivered to your home. “Of course, the classic monitoring methods do not work.” Here, too, the federal government should act and create a legal basis. So the first question that arises is: how could open source and free software projects ensure protection from damage up to data loss if actually even proprietary software comes with no warranty at all? For example Microsoft: https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/legal/windows-server/system-insights-eula DISCLAIMER OF WARRANTY. THE SOFTWARE IS LICENSED “AS IS.” YOU BEAR THE RISK OF USING IT. MICROSOFT GIVES NO EXPRESS WARRANTIES, GUARANTEES, OR CONDITIONS. TO THE EXTENT PERMITTED UNDER APPLICABLE LAWS, MICROSOFT EXCLUDES ALL IMPLIED WARRANTIES, INCLUDING MERCHANTABILITY, FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE, AND NON-INFRINGEMENT. Ciao, Tito ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
