Re: [DNG] Fwd: init system agnosticism [WAS: how to remove libsystemd0 from a live-running debian desktop system]

[hal]

goli...@dyne.org wrote on 04/13/2017 12:51 PM:


> How about Systemd OS running on a Linux kernel.
> 
> golinux

.. or more simply, SOL
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Re: [DNG] Fwd: init system agnosticism [WAS: how to remove libsystemd0 from a live-running debian desktop system]

[Enrico Weigelt, metux IT consult]

On 13.04.2017 09:27, Klaus Ethgen wrote:

> Take for example openssh, I provide patched packages on my server that
> remove the patches of debian that lower ssh security for just gaining a
> bit more comfort. 

What are they aiming to "improve" here ?

> However, in the recent days it was even not possible
> anymore to build as it build depend on libsystemd-dev that is starting
> to depend on systemd itself.

What exactly has happened here ?
Is it just the debian package or openssh upstream itself ?

BTW: just looking at debian patches (jessie) ... haven't seen anything
like that yet.

But it seems they still haven't learn that patching autogenerated files
isn't a good idea.

--mtx

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Re: [DNG] Fwd: init system agnosticism [WAS: how to remove libsystemd0 from a live-running debian desktop system]

[Jaromil]

dear Hendrik,

On Wed, 12 Apr 2017, Hendrik Boom wrote:

> Well, the official policy, insofar as there is one, appears to be that 
[...]

thanks for writing down such a clear statement on the matter, its
helping us to complete the release announcement which now includes
this section about Init Freedom:

""

At last, Devuan is about choice. We think people should be able to
choose whether to use a GNU+Linux system with or without systemd.

Two and a half years ago Devuan decided to split off because Debian
has made it difficult to avoid systemd, ignoring the needs of half of
its population.

Devuan is a new start, growing with your help and donations, but still
with limited resources compared to Debian, so we focus on providing
the missing alternative: a GNU+Linux system without systemd.

We support potential Devuan users who wish to use systemd by having
them use Debian's installer, Debian's packages, and Debian's mailing
lists, all available directly from Debian's mirrors.

""



ciao

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Re: [DNG] Fwd: init system agnosticism [WAS: how to remove libsystemd0 from a live-running debian desktop system]

[Steve Litt]

On Wed, 12 Apr 2017 18:26:47 +0200
Jaromil  wrote:

> let me just add that - as we will be out with the release candidate
> and the stable release very soon now - we count on all of you here to
> show maturity and not feed the trolls who will be coming attracted by
> Devuan's growing success and popularity.

Or the trolls coming right now as a result of Debian-User's >100 post,
13 days old reboot of a knockdown dragout systemd argument. 

It's pitiful and funny at the same time: The systemd refusers departed
from Debian and its mailing list years ago, and yet the Debian project
*still* can't tamp down the dissatisfaction with systemd, over 2 years
after the end of the systemd civil war on Debian-User. 
 
SteveT

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April 2017 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques
 of the Successful Technologist
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Re: [DNG] Fwd: init system agnosticism [WAS: how to remove libsystemd0 from a live-running debian desktop system]

[Arnt Karlsen]

On Thu, 13 Apr 2017 09:49:53 -0400, Renaud wrote in message 
<20170413094953.0b06f...@ron.cerrocora.org>:

> On Thu, 13 Apr 2017 14:04:57 +0200
> Arnt Karlsen  wrote:
> 
> > > > Well, the official policy, insofar as there is one, appears to
> > > > be that Devuan is about choice.  Therefore, it should make
> > > > available (1) the choice to do without systemd and (2) the
> > > > choice to use systemd.  
> > > 
> > > The choice exists already: the user can either use systemd running
> > > Debian, or not use it running Devuan.   
> > 
> > ..what devuan does not support, is the ability to offer a newbie 
> > the option to "try another init system" without having to reinstall
> > everything after finding pain with systemd onboard.
> 
> Given that systemd is no longer (if it ever was) an init system, but
> an operating system.

..aye, but debian.org et al are still pushing the "init system"
narrative.

> Which rules out switching to or from systemd without a complete
> reinstall.
> 
> Anyroads all this is moot until Devuan becomes a mainstream
> distribution, instead of being the domain of us geeks. 

..I disagree we should wait, if we warn the newbies etc now, 
they are going to learn the easier way and likely learn to 
trust our advice on systemd and the systemd folks.


-- 
..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt Karlsen
...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry...
  Scenarios always come in sets of three: 
  best case, worst case, and just in case.
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Re: [DNG] Fwd: init system agnosticism [WAS: how to remove libsystemd0 from a live-running debian desktop system]

[golinux]

On 2017-04-13 11:44, Hendrik Boom wrote:

On Thu, Apr 13, 2017 at 10:57:09AM +0200, Didier Kryn wrote:
...
...


Systemd is not an init system; it is an operating system. Devuan 
runs a
Gnu/Linux OS which is not Systemd. Even if the two are using almost 
the same
kernel, they aren't the same OS. The most typical effect of this is 
that
many packages have different compilation options depending on which OS 
they

are to run.


I've started talking about systemd/Linux.  But I think that calling it
systemd/linux overstates its incompatibility.  For now, anyway.

-- hendrik
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How about Systemd OS running on a Linux kernel.

golinux
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Re: [DNG] Fwd: init system agnosticism [WAS: how to remove libsystemd0 from a live-running debian desktop system]

[Hendrik Boom]

On Thu, Apr 13, 2017 at 10:57:09AM +0200, Didier Kryn wrote:
...
...
> 
> Systemd is not an init system; it is an operating system. Devuan runs a
> Gnu/Linux OS which is not Systemd. Even if the two are using almost the same
> kernel, they aren't the same OS. The most typical effect of this is that
> many packages have different compilation options depending on which OS they
> are to run.

I've started talking about systemd/Linux.  But I think that calling it 
systemd/linux overstates its incompatibility.  For now, anyway.

-- hendrik
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Re: [DNG] Fwd: init system agnosticism [WAS: how to remove libsystemd0 from a live-running debian desktop system]

[Arnt Karlsen]

On Thu, 13 Apr 2017 05:32:05 -0400, Renaud wrote in message 
<20170413053205.3a7e6...@ron.cerrocora.org>:

> On Wed, 12 Apr 2017 22:32:32 -0400
> Hendrik Boom  wrote:
> 
> > Well, the official policy, insofar as there is one, appears to be
> > that Devuan is about choice.  Therefore, it should make available
> > (1) the choice to do without systemd and (2) the choice to use
> > systemd.
> 
> The choice exists already: the user can either use systemd running
> Debian, or not use it running Devuan. 

..what devuan does not support, is the ability to offer a newbie 
the option to "try another init system" without having to reinstall
everything after finding pain with systemd onboard.

..one way of "offering systemd", could be point to Debian.org and 
"warn about having to reinstall everything if you wanna come back",
maybe advice on the wisdom of putting /home, /usr/local etc on their
own file systems, rather than "everything on /."

-- 
..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt Karlsen
...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry...
  Scenarios always come in sets of three: 
  best case, worst case, and just in case.
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Re: [DNG] Fwd: init system agnosticism [WAS: how to remove libsystemd0 from a live-running debian desktop system]

[Ron]

On Wed, 12 Apr 2017 22:32:32 -0400
Hendrik Boom  wrote:

> Well, the official policy, insofar as there is one, appears to be that 
> Devuan is about choice.  Therefore, it should make available (1) the 
> choice to do without systemd and (2) the choice to use systemd.

The choice exists already: the user can either use systemd running Debian, or 
not use it running Devuan.
 
Cheers,
 
Ron.
-- 
   When a woman marries again it is because she detested her first husband.
  When a man marries again, it is because he adored his first wife.
 -- Oscar Wilde

   -- http://www.olgiati-in-paraguay.org --
 
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Re: [DNG] Fwd: init system agnosticism [WAS: how to remove libsystemd0 from a live-running debian desktop system]

[Didier Kryn]

Le 13/04/2017 07:03, Steve Litt a écrit :

On Wed, 12 Apr 2017 22:32:32 -0400
Hendrik Boom  wrote:


On Wed, Apr 12, 2017 at 08:13:46PM -0400, Dan Purgert wrote:


On 04/12/2017 11:58 AM, Steve Litt wrote:

[...]
Systemd actively sabotages the ability to replace it, whereas no
other inits do that (that I know of). It would be stupid of
Devuan to allow systemd into their software.

Wouldn't it also be kind of undoing the whole reason that the
original guys split off the Debian crowd?
   

Well, the official policy, insofar as there is one, appears to be
that Devuan is about choice.

Hi Everyone,

This is settled law. Devuan does not in any way support installation of
systemd on Devuan:

https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20150506.184731.24a5f02c.en.html

All Devuan promises is not to deliberately insert Halloween Code to
bomb when systemd is installed.

It's perfectly obvious that if one wanted Devuan with systemd, they'd
use Debian, but occasionally a troll tries to bludgeon us with our
origins as a distro supporting the choice of its users NOT to use
systemd. And then everyone (I'm guilty too during this thread) chimes
in. But this is settled law.
  
Hello Steve; I fully agree. But can't resist to putting it with my 
own arguments...


Systemd is not an init system; it is an operating system. Devuan 
runs a Gnu/Linux OS which is not Systemd. Even if the two are using 
almost the same kernel, they aren't the same OS. The most typical effect 
of this is that many packages have different compilation options 
depending on which OS they are to run.


For people wanting absolutely Systemd on Devuan, I would recommend 
to install it in a virtual machine under Qemu like Systemd developpers 
do on their Macintoshes.


Didier

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Re: [DNG] Fwd: init system agnosticism [WAS: how to remove libsystemd0 from a live-running debian desktop system]

[Klaus Ethgen]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA512

Am Mi den 12. Apr 2017 um 16:58 schrieb Steve Litt:
> I have no knowledge of the origin of this thread, probably having to do
> with my .procmailrc /dev/nulling certain people. But I have a very
> clear message about this thread's subject: There's no place in Devuan
> for init system agnosticism if such agnosticism includes a tolerance
> for systemd.
> 
> Once installed, systemd makes it 50 times harder to install other
> inits. And even though there may currently be Debian
> package-manager-foo that can do it, there's never a guarantee that will
> survive.
> 
> Systemd actively sabotages the ability to replace it, whereas no
> other inits do that (that I know of). It would be stupid of Devuan to
> allow systemd into their software.

Not only that. With including libsystemd0 in every package dependency,
it makes them factually unable to build.

Take for example openssh, I provide patched packages on my server that
remove the patches of debian that lower ssh security for just gaining a
bit more comfort. However, in the recent days it was even not possible
anymore to build as it build depend on libsystemd-dev that is starting
to depend on systemd itself.

But this libsystemd-dev dependency is not needed at all.

Other think, did you ever try to deinstall libsystemd0? It will
deinstall many other packages; at least on ceres.

Regards
   Klaus
- -- 
Klaus Ethgen   http://www.ethgen.ch/
pub  4096R/4E20AF1C 2011-05-16Klaus Ethgen 
Fingerprint: 85D4 CA42 952C 949B 1753  62B3 79D0 B06F 4E20 AF1C
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Re: [DNG] Fwd: init system agnosticism [WAS: how to remove libsystemd0 from a live-running debian desktop system]

[Joachim Fahrner]

Am 2017-04-13 04:32, schrieb Hendrik Boom:

Devuan is about choice.  Therefore, it should make available (1) the
choice to do without systemd and (2) the choice to use systemd.


This is impossible with a binary distribution. systemd is not only an 
init system, it pervades the whole system. You can either compile 
packages with systemd libraries or without. But you have to decide that 
at compile time.


Jochen
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Re: [DNG] Fwd: init system agnosticism [WAS: how to remove libsystemd0 from a live-running debian desktop system]

[Steve Litt]

On Wed, 12 Apr 2017 22:32:32 -0400
Hendrik Boom  wrote:

> On Wed, Apr 12, 2017 at 08:13:46PM -0400, Dan Purgert wrote:
> > 
> > 
> > On 04/12/2017 11:58 AM, Steve Litt wrote:  
> > > [...]
> > > Systemd actively sabotages the ability to replace it, whereas no
> > > other inits do that (that I know of). It would be stupid of
> > > Devuan to allow systemd into their software.  
> > 
> > Wouldn't it also be kind of undoing the whole reason that the
> > original guys split off the Debian crowd?
> >   
> 
> Well, the official policy, insofar as there is one, appears to be
> that Devuan is about choice.  

Hi Everyone,

This is settled law. Devuan does not in any way support installation of
systemd on Devuan:

https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20150506.184731.24a5f02c.en.html

All Devuan promises is not to deliberately insert Halloween Code to
bomb when systemd is installed.

It's perfectly obvious that if one wanted Devuan with systemd, they'd
use Debian, but occasionally a troll tries to bludgeon us with our
origins as a distro supporting the choice of its users NOT to use
systemd. And then everyone (I'm guilty too during this thread) chimes
in. But this is settled law. 
 
SteveT

Steve Litt 
April 2017 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques
 of the Successful Technologist
http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques
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Re: [DNG] Fwd: init system agnosticism [WAS: how to remove libsystemd0 from a live-running debian desktop system]

[Rick Moen]

Quoting Hendrik Boom (hend...@topoi.pooq.com):

[...]
> We support potential devuan users who wish option (2) by having them use 
> Debian's installer, Debian's packages, and Debian's mailing lists, all
> available directly from Debian's mirrors.

Well and fairly stated, IMO.

I'll also ask:  Has someone submitted a systemd package compliant with
Devuan policy about no excessive intrusion into other software, no
needless refusal to support portable operation, no undocumented and
unstable external interfaces, and in general no pathological shortfall
in the trait of working well with others?

Perhaps the referenced question should be deferred until the happy day of such
a submission.  (I'll also be on the lookout for Hades turning gelid.  ;-> )

(Above offered in case the Project is still looking for a handy answer
to the 'Why won't you let me choose systemd?' troll.  Yrs. if you want it.)
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Re: [DNG] Fwd: init system agnosticism [WAS: how to remove libsystemd0 from a live-running debian desktop system]

[Hendrik Boom]

On Wed, Apr 12, 2017 at 08:13:46PM -0400, Dan Purgert wrote:
> 
> 
> On 04/12/2017 11:58 AM, Steve Litt wrote:
> > [...]
> > Systemd actively sabotages the ability to replace it, whereas no
> > other inits do that (that I know of). It would be stupid of Devuan to
> > allow systemd into their software.
> 
> Wouldn't it also be kind of undoing the whole reason that the original
> guys split off the Debian crowd?
> 

Well, the official policy, insofar as there is one, appears to be that 
Devuan is about choice.  Therefore, it should make available (1) the 
choice to do without systemd and (2) the choice to use systemd.

We split off because Debian has made it difficult to avoid systemd.

Given our limited manpower, we focus in (1).

We support potential devuan users who wish option (2) by having them use 
Debian's installer, Debian's packages, and Debian's mailing lists, all
available directly from Debian's mirrors.

-- hendrik

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Re: [DNG] Fwd: init system agnosticism [WAS: how to remove libsystemd0 from a live-running debian desktop system]

[Dan Purgert]

On 04/12/2017 11:58 AM, Steve Litt wrote:
> [...]
> Systemd actively sabotages the ability to replace it, whereas no
> other inits do that (that I know of). It would be stupid of Devuan to
> allow systemd into their software.

Wouldn't it also be kind of undoing the whole reason that the original
guys split off the Debian crowd?



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Re: [DNG] Fwd: init system agnosticism [WAS: how to remove libsystemd0 from a live-running debian desktop system]

[Enrico Weigelt, metux IT consult]

On 12.04.2017 17:58, Steve Litt wrote:

> I have no knowledge of the origin of this thread, probably having to do
> with my .procmailrc /dev/nulling certain people. But I have a very
> clear message about this thread's subject: There's no place in Devuan
> for init system agnosticism if such agnosticism includes a tolerance
> for systemd.

Certainly, I'd be the last one suggesting systemd on Devuan.
I won't let that thing anywhere near my systems. (one of the reasons
why I'll abandon proxmox in favour of alternatives like docker)

Unfortunately, several of my clients use it (even for embedded systems),
so I'll have to cope w/ that :(

My goal w/ that thread is to get yet another excuse for using systemd
out of the way and solve the problem (from application pov) in a clean
and systemd-free way.

It seems there's some demand for some generalized service status
reporting (eg. think of tools like sendmail, which block inbound
traffic on too high system load, etc). Monitoring systems certainly
benefit from such information.

From an application developer pov, you wouldn't like to reinvent things
over and over again, but instead like to have some library that does it.
IMHO, most of the upstreams adopting systemd aren't necessarily systemd
fetishists, but just find something (subjectively) useful there and so
use it - w/o caring about the consequences for others.

> Systemd actively sabotages the ability to replace it, whereas no
> other inits do that (that I know of). 

Yeah, they can do it by looking adding more and more features that might
be useful in some cases, add *something* quick+dirty, and 'as fast as
possible, so people step in the trap.

If we wanna solve that problem w/o having to clean up the mess they
created over and over again, we need clean alternatives.


--mtx

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Re: [DNG] Fwd: init system agnosticism [WAS: how to remove libsystemd0 from a live-running debian desktop system]

[Jaromil]

On Wed, 12 Apr 2017, Steve Litt wrote:


> Systemd actively sabotages the ability to replace it, whereas no
> other inits do that (that I know of). It would be stupid of Devuan
> to allow systemd into their software.

we go even further Steve: we will also not allow the systemd hooligans
to interfere with our debates. I suspect that's why this and other
places around Devuan suddenly became very pleasant and reasonably
crowded without much effort.

let me just add that - as we will be out with the release candidate
and the stable release very soon now - we count on all of you here to
show maturity and not feed the trolls who will be coming attracted by
Devuan's growing success and popularity.

ciao
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Re: [DNG] Fwd: init system agnosticism [WAS: how to remove libsystemd0 from a live-running debian desktop system]

[Steve Litt]

On Wed, 12 Apr 2017 08:29:00 +0100
KatolaZ  wrote:

> On Wed, Apr 12, 2017 at 08:41:23AM +0200, Enrico Weigelt, metux IT
> consult wrote:
> > Hi folks,
> > 
> > 
> > FYI: just posted that to debian-devel.
> > What's your opponion on that ?
> > 
> >   
> 
> "...They have taken the bridge and the second hall.

I have no knowledge of the origin of this thread, probably having to do
with my .procmailrc /dev/nulling certain people. But I have a very
clear message about this thread's subject: There's no place in Devuan
for init system agnosticism if such agnosticism includes a tolerance
for systemd.

Once installed, systemd makes it 50 times harder to install other
inits. And even though there may currently be Debian
package-manager-foo that can do it, there's never a guarantee that will
survive.

Systemd actively sabotages the ability to replace it, whereas no
other inits do that (that I know of). It would be stupid of Devuan to
allow systemd into their software.

SteveT

Steve Litt 
April 2017 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques
 of the Successful Technologist
http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques
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Re: [DNG] Fwd: init system agnosticism [WAS: how to remove libsystemd0 from a live-running debian desktop system]

[Jaromil]

On Wed, 12 Apr 2017, Rick Moen wrote:

> Quoting KatolaZ (kato...@freaknet.org):
> 
> > "...They have taken the bridge and the second hall. We have barred the
> > gates but cannot hold them for long. The ground shakes, drums... drums
> > in the deep. We cannot get out. A shadow lurks in the dark. We can not
> > get out... they are coming"
> 
> http://www.newsfrombree.co.uk/balrog.htm


LOL hilarious!! BTW today until late we'll try to have a jessie stable
release candidate. meeting point is #devuan-dev

after that... we'll have popcorns!!

ciao


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Re: [DNG] Fwd: init system agnosticism [WAS: how to remove libsystemd0 from a live-running debian desktop system]

[Rick Moen]

Quoting KatolaZ (kato...@freaknet.org):

> "...They have taken the bridge and the second hall. We have barred the
> gates but cannot hold them for long. The ground shakes, drums... drums
> in the deep. We cannot get out. A shadow lurks in the dark. We can not
> get out... they are coming"

http://www.newsfrombree.co.uk/balrog.htm

-- 
Rick Moen   "If you watch Black Swan backwards, it's a movie about 
r...@linuxmafia.com a psychotic girl who benefits from ballet therapy."
McQ!  (4x80)   -- knnth_dh
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Re: [DNG] Fwd: init system agnosticism [WAS: how to remove libsystemd0 from a live-running debian desktop system]

[KatolaZ]

On Wed, Apr 12, 2017 at 08:41:23AM +0200, Enrico Weigelt, metux IT consult 
wrote:
> Hi folks,
> 
> 
> FYI: just posted that to debian-devel.
> What's your opponion on that ?
> 
> 

"...They have taken the bridge and the second hall. We have barred the
gates but cannot hold them for long. The ground shakes, drums... drums
in the deep. We cannot get out. A shadow lurks in the dark. We can not
get out... they are coming"

HND

KatolaZ

-- 
[ ~.,_  Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ - GLUGCT -- Freaknet Medialab  ]  
[ "+.  katolaz [at] freaknet.org --- katolaz [at] yahoo.it  ]
[   @)   http://kalos.mine.nu ---  Devuan GNU + Linux User  ]
[ @@)  http://maths.qmul.ac.uk/~vnicosia --  GPG: 0B5F062F  ] 
[ (@@@)  Twitter: @KatolaZ - skype: katolaz -- github: KatolaZ  ]


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[DNG] Fwd: init system agnosticism [WAS: how to remove libsystemd0 from a live-running debian desktop system]

[Enrico Weigelt, metux IT consult]

Hi folks,


FYI: just posted that to debian-devel.
What's your opponion on that ?


--mtx

 Forwarded Message 
Subject: init system agnosticism [WAS: how to remove libsystemd0 from a
live-running debian desktop system]
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2017 08:38:26 +0200
From: Enrico Weigelt, metux IT consult 
To: debian-de...@lists.debian.org

On 17.02.2015 18:49, The Wanderer wrote:

Hi folks,


just digging out an older thread that was still laying around in my
inbox - w/ about 2yrs distance, I hope it was enough cool down time
so we discuss it more objectively about that.



> libsystemd0 is not a startup method, or an init system. It's a shared
> library which permits detection of whether systemd (and the
> functionality which it provides) is present.

From a sw architects pov, I've got a fundamental problem w/ that
appraoch: we'll have lots of sw that somehow has 'magically'
additional functionality if some other sw (in that case systemd)
happens to run.

The official description is: "The libsystemd0 library provides
interfaces to various systemd components." But what does that mean ?
Well, more or less a catchall for anything that somehow wants to
communicate w/ systemd. What this is actually for, isn't clear at all
at that point - you'll have to read the code yourself to find out.
And new functionality can be added anytime, and sooner or later some
application will start using it. So, at least anybody who maintains
and systemd-free environment (eg. platforms that dont even have it)
needs run behind them and keep up.

Certainly, systemd has a lot of fancy features that many people like,
but also many people dislike (even for exactly the same reaons).
The current approach adds a lot of extra load on the community and
causes unnecessary conflicts.

So, why don't we just ask, what kind of functionality do applications
really want (and what's the actual goal behind), and then define open
interfaces, that can be easily implemented anywhere ?

After looking at several applications, the most interesting part seems
to be service status reporting. Certainly an interesting issue that
deserves some standardization (across all unixoid OS'es). There're lots
of ways to do that under the hood - even without having to talk to some
central daemon (eg. extending the classical pidfile approach to
statfiles, etc). All we need yet is an init-system/service-monitor
agnostic API, that can be easily implemented w/o extra hassle.
A simple reference implementation probably would just write some
statfiles and/or log to syslog, others could talk to some specific
service monitor.

Having such an API (in its own library), we'd already have most of
the problems here out of the way. Each init system / service monitor
setup comes with some implementation of that API, and applications
just depend on the corresponding package - everything else can be
easily handled by the existing package management infrastructure.
No need for recompiles (perhaps even no need to opt out in all the
individual packages).

The same can be done for all the other features currently used from
libsystemd, step by step.

Maintenance of these APIs (specification and reference implementation)
should be settled in an open community (perhaps similar to
freedesktop.org for the DE's), not in an individual init system /
service monitor project.


I really wonder why people spent so much time in init system wars,
instead of thinking clearly of the actual root problem to solve.


--mtx

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