Re: [DNG] GTK3 and systemd

2017-05-05 Thread Gregory Nowak 
On Fri, May 05, 2017 at 02:12:28PM +0200, Enrico Weigelt, metux IT consult 
wrote:
> Aren't these things that naturally belong into X or the input itself,

It would be nice if x itself implemented an accessibility framework,
but it currently doesn't as far as I know. If it did, people with
disabilities wouldn't be limited to gnome, which would be again nice.

> eg. speech input, braille display, etc ?

I'm not sure what you're getting at in the above example, can you please
elaborate? If you're saying that there should be a driver for a braille
display, speech input, or speech output just like there is for a mouse
for example, then this isn't that simple. With a mouse for example all
you have to do the way I understand it is to track the mouse movement,
move the mouse pointer on the screen by the same amount, and track if
buttons were clicked, and where the pointer was when the buttons were
clicked. In the case of a braille display, you can't simply send video
output to it, because it would make no sense. Doing so would be like
sending an audio file directly to the sound card. You instead need a
audio player to interpret the audio data, and play it to the sound
card. This is what brlTTY does for example. It not only drives the
braille display, but grabs video from the text console, formats it
into something the braille display can act on, and sends it to the
braille display. The orca screen reader does much the same thing with
graphical output, but uses brlTTY to drive the braille display,
instead of replicating that functionality itself.

The same is true for speech input, and speech output. Software
listening to input from the microphone needs to interpret the audio,
and execute the required action(s). You can't send video output
directly to the sound card, because that would make no sense. Software
has to grab the video output, interpret into text, send that text to a
text to speech engine, which then sends that audio to a sound card.

This is all quite over simplified, but I hope it makes sense.

Greg


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Re: [DNG] GTK3 and systemd

2017-05-05 Thread aitor_czr 

Hi again,

On 05/05/2017 07:59 PM, aitor_czr wrote:


Hi parazyd,

On 05/04/2017 03:58 PM, parazyd wrote:

On Thu, 04 May 2017, aitor_czr wrote:


Hi parazyd,
On 05/04/2017 01:15 PM, parazyd [1]  wrote:

Ok, so vanilla GTK*does*  depend on systemd. Well, best start looking for anothe
r toolkit then i guess...

GNOME != GTK3. Gtk3 does depend on dbus & co., but does not depend on
systemd. It would be very wrong to do so actually, since a lot of
applications are ported to Gtk3.

Gtk3 doesn't depend on dbus, whereas some apps like slim, synaptic,
thunar, seahorse, nautilus...  But not Gtk per se, neither the Qt
toolkit.
Cheers,
  Aitor.

Nope, Gtk3 does depend on dbus. More correctly, its accessibility parts
depend on dbus.


You are right:

https://paste.debian.net/930914/

Cheers,

  Aitor.


And more concretly,

"libatk-bridge2.0-dev" depends on "libatspi2.0-dev", which depends at the same on 
"libdbus-1-dev"


  Aitor.




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Re: [DNG] GTK3 and systemd

2017-05-05 Thread aitor_czr 

Hi parazyd,

On 05/04/2017 03:58 PM, parazyd wrote:

On Thu, 04 May 2017, aitor_czr wrote:


Hi parazyd,
On 05/04/2017 01:15 PM, parazyd [1]  wrote:

Ok, so vanilla GTK*does*  depend on systemd. Well, best start looking for anothe
r toolkit then i guess...

GNOME != GTK3. Gtk3 does depend on dbus & co., but does not depend on
systemd. It would be very wrong to do so actually, since a lot of
applications are ported to Gtk3.

Gtk3 doesn't depend on dbus, whereas some apps like slim, synaptic,
thunar, seahorse, nautilus...  But not Gtk per se, neither the Qt
toolkit.
Cheers,
  Aitor.

Nope, Gtk3 does depend on dbus. More correctly, its accessibility parts
depend on dbus.


You are right:

https://paste.debian.net/930914/

Cheers,

  Aitor.


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Re: [DNG] GTK3 and systemd

2017-05-05 Thread Enrico Weigelt, metux IT consult 
On 04.05.2017 22:47, Gregory Nowak wrote:
> On Thu, May 04, 2017 at 04:15:15PM +0200, Enrico Weigelt, metux IT consult 
> wrote:
>> What exactly does that 'accessibility' stuff actually do ?
> 
> It does for people with various disabilities what a screen, keyboard
> and mouse do for people without disabilities.

Aren't these things that naturally belong into X or the input itself,
eg. speech input, braille display, etc ?


--mtx

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Re: [DNG] GTK3 and systemd

2017-05-04 Thread Gregory Nowak 
On Thu, May 04, 2017 at 04:15:15PM +0200, Enrico Weigelt, metux IT consult 
wrote:
> What exactly does that 'accessibility' stuff actually do ?

It does for people with various disabilities what a screen, keyboard
and mouse do for people without disabilities.

Greg


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Re: [DNG] GTK3 and systemd

2017-05-04 Thread Radagast 
Well, that would be a brainpain to maintain... Where might I find the GTK2 
bugtracker? bugzilla.gnome.org seemed void of GTK2 stuff.

/Radagast

On Thu, 04 May 2017 19:01:47 +0200
Joachim Fahrner  wrote:

> Am 2017-05-04 17:22, schrieb Radagast:
> > Now that you mention it, I recall I read somewhere that GTK2 is still
> > receiving secrity updates. So, that might be an option...
> 
> I would also vote for gtk2. gtk3 ist strictly bound to Gnome 3 and 
> changes every few days, breaking current themes.
> 
> Jochen
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Re: [DNG] GTK3 and systemd

2017-05-04 Thread Joachim Fahrner 

Am 2017-05-04 17:22, schrieb Radagast:

Now that you mention it, I recall I read somewhere that GTK2 is still
receiving secrity updates. So, that might be an option...


I would also vote for gtk2. gtk3 ist strictly bound to Gnome 3 and 
changes every few days, breaking current themes.


Jochen
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Re: [DNG] GTK3 and systemd

2017-05-04 Thread Radagast 
Now that you mention it, I recall I read somewhere that GTK2 is still receiving 
secrity updates. So, that might be an option...

Radgast

On Thu, 4 May 2017 10:56:58 +0100
KatolaZ  wrote:

> On Thu, May 04, 2017 at 11:43:33AM +0200, Radagast wrote:
> > Ok, so vanilla GTK *does* depend on systemd. Well, best start looking for 
> > another toolkit then i guess...
> > 
> 
> ...or perhaps help maintaining and developing GTK2, which does not
> depend on systemd. Hard times ahead, but nobody has ever maganed to
> force the entire community to stay on a single path. Remember that
> GNOME itself was born as a tentative countermeasure to KDE, which was
> using the (then non-free) QT libraries, hence forcing users to abide
> to a non-free license from Trolltech...
> 
> IWTBF
> 
> KatolaZ
> 
> -- 
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> [ "+.  katolaz [at] freaknet.org --- katolaz [at] yahoo.it  ]
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Re: [DNG] GTK3 and systemd

2017-05-04 Thread parazyd 
On Thu, 04 May 2017, Enrico Weigelt, metux IT consult wrote:

> On 04.05.2017 15:58, parazyd wrote:
> 
> > Nope, Gtk3 does depend on dbus. More correctly, its accessibility parts
> > depend on dbus.
> 
> What exactly does that 'accessibility' stuff actually do ?

It's somewhat a black box. Nobody ever bothered to fork Gtk3 without it,
so my guess it's deeply integrated anyway.

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Re: [DNG] GTK3 and systemd

2017-05-04 Thread Enrico Weigelt, metux IT consult 
On 04.05.2017 15:58, parazyd wrote:

> Nope, Gtk3 does depend on dbus. More correctly, its accessibility parts
> depend on dbus.

What exactly does that 'accessibility' stuff actually do ?


--mtx

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Re: [DNG] GTK3 and systemd

2017-05-04 Thread Enrico Weigelt, metux IT consult 
On 04.05.2017 15:12, aitor_czr wrote:

> Gtk3 doesn't depend on dbus, whereas some apps like slim, synaptic,
> thunar, seahorse, nautilus...  But not Gtk per se, neither the Qt toolkit.

Qt does - at least much parts of it. You can opt-out at build time,
but then you'll looser other features.

BTW: these trolls are quite funny: the also need extra wrapper for
trivial stuff like can access. Seems operating on sockets its far
to complicated for the intended audience (hmm, who's their audience
anyways ? obviously not software engineers)


--mtx

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Re: [DNG] GTK3 and systemd

2017-05-04 Thread Enrico Weigelt, metux IT consult 
On 04.05.2017 11:56, KatolaZ wrote:

> Remember that GNOME itself was born as a tentative countermeasure to KDE,
> which was using the (then non-free) QT libraries, hence forcing users
> to abide to a non-free license from Trolltech...

... and because of the resource consumption, excessive build times and
bad binary compatibility of C++ in general, etc, etc.

Nowadays, c++ became much better, build machines got faster, but the
trolls really manage to make it even much worse than it ever was.
Over 1GB source tree - several hours of build times, until it breaks
somewhere in the middle again ...


--mtx
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Re: [DNG] GTK3 and systemd

2017-05-04 Thread Enrico Weigelt, metux IT consult 
On 04.05.2017 11:51, parazyd wrote:

> GNOME != GTK3. Gtk3 does depend on dbus & co., 

Which already is bad enough. Actually, desktop-bus coming from these
folks - which makes it even funnier that more and more embedded folks
are using it (and then whining about resource consumption and bad
performance)

> It would be very wrong to do so actually, since a lot of
> applications are ported to Gtk3.

Better don't speak out that idea too loudly ...


--mtx

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Re: [DNG] GTK3 and systemd

2017-05-04 Thread Enrico Weigelt, metux IT consult 
On 04.05.2017 11:43, Radagast wrote:
> Ok, so vanilla GTK *does* depend on systemd. Well, best start looking for 
> another toolkit then i guess...

I've started hacking up my own widget toolkit. Yet in a pretty early
stage - for now just using it for some small DRM/KMS-based apps.

https://github.com/metux/twtk


Patches welcomed :)


--mtx

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Re: [DNG] GTK3 and systemd

2017-05-04 Thread parazyd 
On Thu, 04 May 2017, aitor_czr wrote:

>Hi parazyd,
>On 05/04/2017 01:15 PM, parazyd [1] wrote:
> 
> Ok, so vanilla GTK *does* depend on systemd. Well, best start looking for 
> anothe
> r toolkit then i guess...
> 
> GNOME != GTK3. Gtk3 does depend on dbus & co., but does not depend on
> systemd. It would be very wrong to do so actually, since a lot of
> applications are ported to Gtk3.
> 
>Gtk3 doesn't depend on dbus, whereas some apps like slim, synaptic,
>thunar, seahorse, nautilus...  But not Gtk per se, neither the Qt
>toolkit.
>Cheers,
>  Aitor.

Nope, Gtk3 does depend on dbus. More correctly, its accessibility parts
depend on dbus.

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Re: [DNG] GTK3 and systemd

2017-05-04 Thread aitor_czr 

Hi parazyd,

On 05/04/2017 01:15 PM, parazyd  wrote:

Ok, so vanilla GTK*does*  depend on systemd. Well, best start looking for 
another toolkit then i guess...

GNOME != GTK3. Gtk3 does depend on dbus & co., but does not depend on
systemd. It would be very wrong to do so actually, since a lot of
applications are ported to Gtk3.


Gtk3 doesn't depend on dbus, whereas some apps like slim, synaptic, 
thunar, seahorse, nautilus...  But not Gtk per se, neither the Qt toolkit.


Cheers,

  Aitor.



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Re: [DNG] GTK3 and systemd

2017-05-04 Thread parazyd 
On Thu, 04 May 2017, KatolaZ wrote:

> On Thu, May 04, 2017 at 11:43:33AM +0200, Radagast wrote:
> > Ok, so vanilla GTK *does* depend on systemd. Well, best start looking for 
> > another toolkit then i guess...
> > 
> 
> ...or perhaps help maintaining and developing GTK2, which does not
> depend on systemd. Hard times ahead, but nobody has ever maganed to
> force the entire community to stay on a single path. Remember that
> GNOME itself was born as a tentative countermeasure to KDE, which was
> using the (then non-free) QT libraries, hence forcing users to abide
> to a non-free license from Trolltech...

Gtk2 hasn't received an update in years, so it's a relatively safe bet
if you choose to use it.

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Re: [DNG] GTK3 and systemd

2017-05-04 Thread KatolaZ 
On Thu, May 04, 2017 at 11:43:33AM +0200, Radagast wrote:
> Ok, so vanilla GTK *does* depend on systemd. Well, best start looking for 
> another toolkit then i guess...
> 

...or perhaps help maintaining and developing GTK2, which does not
depend on systemd. Hard times ahead, but nobody has ever maganed to
force the entire community to stay on a single path. Remember that
GNOME itself was born as a tentative countermeasure to KDE, which was
using the (then non-free) QT libraries, hence forcing users to abide
to a non-free license from Trolltech...

IWTBF

KatolaZ

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Re: [DNG] GTK3 and systemd

2017-05-04 Thread parazyd 
On Thu, 04 May 2017, Radagast wrote:

> Ok, so vanilla GTK *does* depend on systemd. Well, best start looking for 
> another toolkit then i guess...

GNOME != GTK3. Gtk3 does depend on dbus & co., but does not depend on
systemd. It would be very wrong to do so actually, since a lot of
applications are ported to Gtk3.

-- 
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Re: [DNG] GTK3 and systemd

2017-05-04 Thread Radagast 
Ok, so vanilla GTK *does* depend on systemd. Well, best start looking for 
another toolkit then i guess...

/Radagast

On Thu, 4 May 2017 11:25:28 +0200
Arnt Karlsen  wrote:

> On Thu, 4 May 2017 10:25:15 +0200, Radagast wrote in message 
> <20170504102515.40808d6fabf126cb5be01...@openmailbox.org>:
> 
> > Hi all!
> > 
> > Can I build a GUI application on GTK3 and expect it to be independent
> > from systemd? I've been looking around trying to figure this out but
> > so far I've found no straight answers. Mabye my looking skills aren't
> > up to par, still asking beats not knowing any day and this seems like
> > the right place to ask.
> 
> ..seen https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/GNOME/GNOME_Without_systemd ?
> 
> ..http://without-systemd.org/wiki/index.php/Main_Page found from
> googling "gtk3 without systemd", looks like google search AI is 
> getting clever enough to put 2 relevant hits in the to 10...
> https://www.google.com/search?q=gtk3+without+systemd
> 
> 
> -- 
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>   Scenarios always come in sets of three: 
>   best case, worst case, and just in case.
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[DNG] GTK3 and systemd

2017-05-04 Thread Radagast 
Hi all!

Can I build a GUI application on GTK3 and expect it to be independent from 
systemd? I've been looking around trying to figure this out but so far I've 
found no straight answers. Mabye my looking skills aren't up to par, still 
asking beats not knowing any day and this seems like the right place to ask.

/Radagast
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