Re: [DNG] Linus can no longer trust "init"

[Enrico Weigelt, metux IT consult]

On 11.07.2017 23:33, Rowland Penny wrote:


Yes, there is 'with-systemd' and 'without-systemd', not that either are
really needed, the systemd parts will only be built if the systemd
development libs are installed. 


It should be an explicit op-in (in general, I really dislike any
autodetect magic, that silently enables dependencies - that's especially
annoying for self-compiling folks). And the naming is confusing, as it
doesn't tell anything about what it's actually for.

By the way, I still haven't understood, what this is actually needed
for. sd_notify() is pretty useless in a decent operating context,
the information just isn't reliable enough to do anything that we
already can by reading log files (we already had a long discussion
about that, don't like to repeat it again). No need for that extra
complexity (yes: good software is usually small and simple).

Instead we could try standardizing some generic syslog messages,
so monitoring systems need less service-specific logic.


--mtx
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Re: [DNG] Linus can no longer trust "init"

[Enrico Weigelt, metux IT consult]

On 11.07.2017 23:23, Adam Borowski wrote:


Uhm, but what's the point in _this_?  Samba does the right thing: builds
systemdD support if and only if its configure script detected the headers
(which can usually also be forced by --enable-foo or --disable-foo).


#1: just a little hack while waiting for the coffee compiler
#2: sends a clear message
#3: i'm too lazy to adapt configure calls in lots on lots of different
buildsystems, so I patch it at one central point
#4: when upstream changes something here, I'll see it on next rebase
(merge conflict)
#5: usually, when I come around bad code, i just kill it
#6: i dont trust upstreams, neither do i trust their configure scripts

Whether or not packagers follow this approach, or another one, is
entirely their decision. (not my business).

OTOH, it's just a trivial example. Other packages might actually need
patching. In that case I'd just rip off the lennartware, instead of
make it (build-time) optional.

My whole point wasn't about that particular case, but the idea of
collecting depotterized maintenance branches in one community, where
everybody can easily pick them.


--mtx
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Re: [DNG] Linus can no longer trust "init"

[Brad Campbell]

On 13/07/17 00:56, Dragan FOSS wrote:

On 07/12/2017 07:18 AM, Brad Campbell wrote:

Did I miss something


Yes.. ;)
When I wrote "recommends", and your interpretation of this word is
"mandating", I have no choice but to think that your reading system is,
to put it mildly, funny :)


Nope. Not at all. I don't see that postgres is "recommending" systemd at 
all. All they are saying is "if you want to use it with systemd, we have 
this option to make it easier for you". No recommendation in that and 
they are certainly not mandating.



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Re: [DNG] Linus can no longer trust "init"

[Dragan FOSS]

On 07/12/2017 07:18 AM, Brad Campbell wrote:

Did I miss something


Yes.. ;)
When I wrote "recommends", and your interpretation of this word is 
"mandating", I have no choice but to think that your reading system is, 
to put it mildly, funny :)


Cheers,
Dragan
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Re: [DNG] Linus can no longer trust "init"

[Didier Kryn]

Le 11/07/2017 à 20:35, Jamey Fletcher a écrit :

I no longer feel like I can
trust "init"
https://lkml.org/lkml/2017/7/6/577

This is getting scary - last time I remember something along these lines,
something called git seemed to be the end result.  And I think git has
taken over the world from emacs!


Sorry, maybe I haven't enough software/historical/english culture 
to not miss something, but I don't understand the relation between Git 
and Emacs. AFAIK Git is a replacement for Cvs/Svn, and it seems a 
majority of people agree it is a good replacement.


As I understand the mail of Linus Torvalds, he is aware that the 
init system may be pretty harmfull and he tries to do his best to reduce 
the scope of its possible nuisances.  He makes clear that it is 
SystemDisease which examplified how much init can be harmfull, but the 
approach of Torvalds remains general.


Similarly he noticed that Udev wasn't doing the right things and 
didn't want to, and he implemented firmware loading in the kernel and 
developped the devtmpfs to care of device files creation/deletion. If he 
someday finds that any critical part of init can be done in the kernel. 
He will do it, in the spirit of preserving versatility and freedom - I 
understand that those are his intentions.


Didier

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Re: [DNG] Linus can no longer trust "init"

[Joachim Fahrner]

Am 2017-07-12 00:00, schrieb Dragan FOSS:

Btw...Linux Is Not UniX ;)


Then replace "unix" in my post with "un*x" ;-)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unix-like

Jochen
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Re: [DNG] Linus can no longer trust "init"

[Brad Campbell]

On 12/07/17 02:35, Dragan FOSS wrote:

On 07/11/2017 05:28 PM, Enrico Weigelt, metux IT consult wrote:

make it crystal clear: fuck off the
upstream.


Do you want to say that devuan users do not need any upstream that
recommends systemd?
For example, Postgresql?
***
With PostgreSQL 9.6 or newer, it is recommended to build with
--with-systemd and use the unit file shown in the documentation...
***
https://wiki.postgresql.org/wiki/Systemd


I read that page but my interpretation is different to yours.

I read it as "If you want to run PG 9.6 or newer with systemd, use this 
option and the unit file we include. If you want to run an older version 
the recommended approach is to write a unit file using Type=forking and 
use pg_ctl for ExecStart and ExecStop."


There is absolutely nothing there that is mandating systemd in any way, 
shape or form. They've just included code to make it behave better with 
systemd if that is how you choose to build it.


Did I miss something or are you fearmongering?

Brad
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Re: [DNG] Linus can no longer trust "init"

[Steve Litt]

On Tue, 11 Jul 2017 20:35:45 +0200
Dragan FOSS  wrote:

> On 07/11/2017 05:28 PM, Enrico Weigelt, metux IT consult wrote:
> > make it crystal clear: fuck off the
> > upstream.  
> 
> Do you want to say that devuan users do not need any upstream that 
> recommends systemd?
> For example, Postgresql?
> ***
> With PostgreSQL 9.6 or newer, it is recommended to build with 
> --with-systemd and use the unit file shown in the documentation...
> ***
> https://wiki.postgresql.org/wiki/Systemd

I'm on the Postgres list, and after confirming the contents of your
abovereferred URL, I wrote them asking to not put in init-specific
code, and to take out what's already there.

Thanks for the info.

SteveT

Steve Litt 
July 2017 featured book: Quit Joblessness: Start Your Own Business
http://www.troubleshooters.com/startbiz
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Re: [DNG] Linus can no longer trust "init"

[KatolaZ]

On Tue, Jul 11, 2017 at 11:23:59PM +0200, Adam Borowski wrote:
> On Tue, Jul 11, 2017 at 05:28:39PM +0200, Enrico Weigelt, metux IT consult 
> wrote:
> > To be more practical: I'd suggest spinning off a (distro agnostic)
> > non-systemd maintenance project. We'll collect repos w/ depotterization
> > patches for all packages (and upstream releases) we're interested in.
> > And any distro can easily join in.
> > 
> > Just created a github org for that:
> > https://github.com/depotter
> > 
> > Started w/ a pretty trivial case: samba
> > https://github.com/depotter/samba
> 
> Uhm, but what's the point in _this_?  Samba does the right thing: builds
> systemdD support if and only if its configure script detected the headers
> (which can usually also be forced by --enable-foo or --disable-foo).
> 
> It's Debian/Devuan packaging that needs fixing, the upstream project is
> fine.
> 

and the de-systemd-ised packages for samba are already in Devuan, BTW.

HND

KatolaZ

-- 
[ ~.,_  Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ - GLUGCT -- Freaknet Medialab  ]  
[ "+.  katolaz [at] freaknet.org --- katolaz [at] yahoo.it  ]
[   @)   http://kalos.mine.nu ---  Devuan GNU + Linux User  ]
[ @@)  http://maths.qmul.ac.uk/~vnicosia --  GPG: 0B5F062F  ] 
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Re: [DNG] Linus can no longer trust "init"

[Dragan FOSS]

On 07/11/2017 09:11 PM, Joachim Fahrner wrote:


And what recommends Postgresql for BSD systems? "Don't install it"?

Free unix software should run on ANY unix system, not only Poetteringware.


I never tried on BSD, but on UNIX Pg runs fine :)

https://www.postgresql.org/download/solaris/

Btw...Linux Is Not UniX ;)
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Re: [DNG] Linus can no longer trust "init"

[Rowland Penny]

On Tue, 11 Jul 2017 23:23:59 +0200
Adam Borowski  wrote:

> On Tue, Jul 11, 2017 at 05:28:39PM +0200, Enrico Weigelt, metux IT
> consult wrote:
> > To be more practical: I'd suggest spinning off a (distro agnostic)
> > non-systemd maintenance project. We'll collect repos w/
> > depotterization patches for all packages (and upstream releases)
> > we're interested in. And any distro can easily join in.
> > 
> > Just created a github org for that:
> > https://github.com/depotter
> > 
> > Started w/ a pretty trivial case: samba
> > https://github.com/depotter/samba
> 
> Uhm, but what's the point in _this_?  Samba does the right thing:
> builds systemdD support if and only if its configure script detected
> the headers (which can usually also be forced by --enable-foo or
> --disable-foo).

Yes, there is 'with-systemd' and 'without-systemd', not that either are
really needed, the systemd parts will only be built if the systemd
development libs are installed. I cannot see anybody trying to make it
mandatory to build Samba with systemd, but if anybody tries, I will
just 'NACK' the patches ;-)

Rowland


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Re: [DNG] Linus can no longer trust "init"

[Joachim Fahrner]

Am 2017-07-11 20:35, schrieb Dragan FOSS:

Do you want to say that devuan users do not need any upstream that
recommends systemd?
For example, Postgresql?
***
With PostgreSQL 9.6 or newer, it is recommended to build with
--with-systemd and use the unit file shown in the documentation...
***
https://wiki.postgresql.org/wiki/Systemd


And what recommends Postgresql for BSD systems? "Don't install it"?

Free unix software should run on ANY unix system, not only 
Poetteringware.


Jochen
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Re: [DNG] Linus can no longer trust "init"

[Jamey Fletcher]

> I no longer feel like I can
> trust "init"

> https://lkml.org/lkml/2017/7/6/577

This is getting scary - last time I remember something along these lines,
something called git seemed to be the end result.  And I think git has
taken over the world from emacs!

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Re: [DNG] Linus can no longer trust "init"

[Dragan FOSS]

On 07/11/2017 05:28 PM, Enrico Weigelt, metux IT consult wrote:

make it crystal clear: fuck off the
upstream.


Do you want to say that devuan users do not need any upstream that 
recommends systemd?

For example, Postgresql?
***
With PostgreSQL 9.6 or newer, it is recommended to build with 
--with-systemd and use the unit file shown in the documentation...

***
https://wiki.postgresql.org/wiki/Systemd
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Re: [DNG] Linus can no longer trust "init"

[Enrico Weigelt, metux IT consult]

On 11.07.2017 15:02, Simon Hobson wrote:

But it clear from reading comments on any article mentioning 

> systemd that a great many people really have no idea why
> they should care.

Just pointing out some fundamental problems (especially on bug
or problem reports) and let them learn by own experience.


it's not uncommon to see one comment saying why one person

> doesn't want to run it (perhaps to do with debuggability
when it won't boot), to get a reply along the lines 

> if "I use  and it works just fine -
> what's the problem ?"

It's the same as "windows run fine". Maybe for them it really is,
I couldn't care less. Just ignore these folks - they won't help
us in any way - we don't need them, they're just irrelevant.


So there really is a problem to solve there.


It's their problem, not yours, not mine. So, just don't care,
unless they really ask for help. And if they do, there's a
simple and efficient answer: get rid of systemd. Period.


NAK. 1) is enought.
In the past we fought bigger dragons, eg. getting free from M$.


I don't think that's comparable.


You're right. The MS dragon was magnitudes bigger.


Optional. We patch out the crap for packages we need, and drop those we
don't need.


But it's a lot less ongoing effort to keep that support in upstream. 


Yes, that's why we'd regularily post our patches to upstreams
(more precisely: let some scripts do that - don't waste precious
life time on dumb people)

Yes you can patch it, but the more embedded systemd becomes, the 

> more patching is needed.

Maybe, maybe not, we'll see. Challenge accepted.
And it only affects packages we really need, anyways.

Do we have any real trouble maker on the table right now ?
If so, do we need it or is it just useless toy like gnome3 ?

Keep/get a critical mass so that upstream devs see a case for 

> keeping the non-systemd stuff, and maintaining the non-systemd distro
> is less work.

In worst case, we can become our own upstream. Of course taking folks
from all the other non-systemd distros aboard.


Not, quite. Just rapair and support the original API - drop the
systemd crap entirely.


I think you've missed the point. "Repair and support the original API"

> isn't an option if the upstream dev wants his package to be runable
> on a systemd system

Seems you missed my point, so to make it crystal clear: fuck off the
upstream. Collect the folks from the other distros, fork off and also
make big noise about that. Including using social technics to make those
upstreams feel really bad about their choice (at that point, we're in
the political sphere, so use political tools).

And the team behind systemd have shown that they have no intension of 

> fixing anything when they can better support their aims by deprecating

it and bringing something new (and in their eyes, improved) to the table.


We all know that, had been said a thousand times, no need to repeat it
again and again. We all know that Lennartism is an ugly totalitarian
ideology. But as long as they're not making chaos in the streets and
start actually hurting people, we can easily ignore them (and even if
they did, we'd take care of that). Those psychopaths live from our
attention (because they just don't have anything else in their petty
miserable lifes) - don't give them this energy anymore, and they'll
sooner or later die. Alone.

The (few) Lennartists are not the folks we should care about, just like
w/ Fascists, Socialists, Satanists, and all the other insane ideologies.
Instead we should care about their blind followers. And most of them
only learn by pain.


If the systemd devs showed the sort of attitude to the rest of the world


If we ever invest energy into these folks, then make they look as what
they really are: ridiculous petty psychopaths. We should never engage
them, just laugh about them.


It's the very fact that they appear to be forcing this binary choice

> (systemd or nothing) is why we're having this discussion.

No, it's the fact that they have so many dumb, brainwashed followers.


That's why I suggest it's important to keep the upstream devs onside


Depends on what you exactly mean by "onside". If it's about feeding them
with bugfixes (and systemd dependency *is* a bug, a critical one), then
we aggree. But we should make it crystal clear, that we'll do whatever
it takes to keep our systems free from Lennartware. Especially including
the option of a fork. (and that, of course, also includes eradicating
libsystemd0)

Yet again, we're in the area of politicts. Actually on the geopolitical
scale. So, we gotta act like that. We'll defend our homeland by any
means necessary - no surrender, no retreat.

> Over time that will change - systemd will get deeper and deeper into
packages, and it will get harder and harder to remove it, and to add 

> in the now missing parts.

On any such patch, fire back. And don't miss a chance to put lots of
salt in the wound.

To be more practical: I'd suggest spinning off a (distro 

Re: [DNG] Linus can no longer trust "init"

[Hendrik Boom]

On Tue, Jul 11, 2017 at 02:10:04PM +0200, Enrico Weigelt, metux IT consult 
wrote:
> On 11.07.2017 13:55, Simon Hobson wrote:
> 
> 
> >3) Explain (in rational, technical, non-political) terms why people 
> >should care that there is a choice - and why we think they would be 
> >wise to take it.
> 
> I wouldn't waste time on that. They have to learn by themselves -
> preaching doesn't help.

There are those who feel uneasy, but need the rhetoric to know just what 
it is that make them uneasy.  They are the ones the ratonal, 
technical, nonpolitical terms will reach.

Conclusions about such matters are often obvious only when they have 
been pointed out.

-- hendrik
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Re: [DNG] Linus can no longer trust "init"

[Arnt Karlsen]

On Tue, 11 Jul 2017 14:02:47 +0100, Simon wrote in message 
<98028782-f385-412e-aeab-2edf14663...@thehobsons.co.uk>:

> "Enrico Weigelt, metux IT consult"  wrote:
> 
> >> 3) Explain (in rational, technical, non-political) terms why
> >> people should care that there is a choice - and why we think they
> >> would be wise to take it.
> > 
> > I wouldn't waste time on that. They have to learn by themselves -
> > preaching doesn't help.
> 
> Preaching is probably the wrong word to have used. But it clear from
> reading comments on any article mentioning systemd that a great many
> people really have no idea why they should care. it's not uncommon to
> see one comment saying why one person doesn't want to run it (perhaps
> to do with debuggability when it won't boot), to get a reply along
> the lines of "I use  and it works just
> fine - what's the problem ?" So there really is a problem to solve
> there. People are using it, many don't know, but of those who are,
> they don't see why it's a problem (and in particular, why someone
> should want to/be able to not use it) because "it works" for them.


..we _could_ "preach" by testing for systemd features and throw warning
screens in the faces of the downstream etc users, and offer info links
(and/or buttons) and an "I know WTF I am doing."-button to click thru.


> >> Without 2 and 3, there won't be large scale adoption of the
> >> alternatives
> > 
> > NAK. 1) is enought.
> > In the past we fought bigger dragons, eg. getting free from M$.
> 
> I don't think that's comparable.
> 
> >> - and without that, there is distinctly less incentive for the
> >> upstream devs to keep support for the alternatives.
> > 
> > Optional. We patch out the crap for packages we need, and drop
> > those we don't need.
> 
> But it's a lot less ongoing effort to keep that support in upstream.


..sometimes, with certain people, this is not a viable option, 
that's _when_ we need to fork these packages.


> Yes you can patch it, but the more embedded systemd becomes, the more
> patching is needed. Keep/get a critical mass so that upstream devs
> see a case for keeping the non-systemd stuff, and maintaining the
> non-systemd distro is less work. I cannot see a case for saying that
> (in total) it's less work to patch a package after the fact than it
> would be to maintain that package in a compatible state to start with.
> 
> >> do they keep support for the old API ? To do so means more work - 
> > > effectively they have to maintain two bits of code everywhere
> >> they use that function, and that means more work. 
> > 
> > Not, quite. Just rapair and support the original API - drop the
> > systemd crap entirely.
> 
> I think you've missed the point. "Repair and support the original
> API" isn't an option if the upstream dev wants his package to be
> runable on a systemd system - because systemd dev policy appears to
> be deliberately forcing that binary choice of "systemd APIs or
> nothing" into anything it can.


..that's _why_ these upstream packages needs to be forked, by us.


> And the team behind systemd have shown
> that they have no intension of fixing anything when they can better
> support their aims by deprecating it and bringing something new (and
> in their eyes, improved) to the table. If the systemd devs showed the
> sort of attitude to the rest of the world (devs and users) that
> others espouse, then there'd be no problem. It's the very fact that
> they appear to be forcing this binary choice (systemd or nothing) is
> why we're having this discussion.
> 
> That's why I suggest it's important to keep the upstream devs onside
> - because it's a lot easier to keep support for the traditional APIs
> etc as an integral part of a package than it is to go through
> patching after the fact. And it's easier to keep them onside if we
> can show that there's a large (ie significant) user base for the
> non-systemd version.
> 
> At present it's (I assume) fairly easy to patch out systemd-isms as
> it's not been around long enough to get major tentacles into most
> stuff. Over time that will change - systemd will get deeper and
> deeper into packages, and it will get harder and harder to remove it,
> and to add in the now missing parts.


-- 
..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt Karlsen
...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry...
  Scenarios always come in sets of three: 
  best case, worst case, and just in case.
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Re: [DNG] Linus can no longer trust "init"

[Edward Bartolo]

Quote: "gnome 3 is crap"

Nah, Gnome 3 is a The Brand that must be shoved down people's throats.
Systemd, is the 'invisible' 'string puller' that lurks behind the
scenes.

-- 
If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough.
(Albert Einstein)
If you cannot make abstructions about details you do not understand
the concepts underlying them.
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Re: [DNG] Linus can no longer trust "init"

[zap]

gnome 3 is crap, need I say more?


On 07/11/2017 07:39 AM, Enrico Weigelt, metux IT consult wrote:
> On 10.07.2017 23:10, Steve Litt wrote:
>
>> Remember, we're fighting a huge and well funded opponent, possessing
>> the money to throw at programmers to keep the systemd mess running, as
>> well as money for publicity to counter common sense with neverending
>> bulldroppings. Seen in that context, what we've accomplished is a
>> miracle.
>
> We don't need to fight anything. Just concentrate on the stuff *we*
> need (seriously, does anybobdy here need gnome3 ?) and patch out the
> crap when neccessary.
>
> And just not caring about that lennartware crap at all. Not even wasting
> time w/ debates about that crap, over and over again. (and yes: that's
> really annying me)
>
> Why do you waste your precious lifetime w/ lennartware at all ?
>
>
> --mtx
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Re: [DNG] Linus can no longer trust "init"

[Simon Hobson]

"Enrico Weigelt, metux IT consult"  wrote:

>> 3) Explain (in rational, technical, non-political) terms why people should 
>> care that there is a choice - and why we think they would be wise to take it.
> 
> I wouldn't waste time on that. They have to learn by themselves -
> preaching doesn't help.

Preaching is probably the wrong word to have used. But it clear from reading 
comments on any article mentioning systemd that a great many people really have 
no idea why they should care. it's not uncommon to see one comment saying why 
one person doesn't want to run it (perhaps to do with debuggability when it 
won't boot), to get a reply along the lines of "I use  and it works just fine - what's the problem ?"
So there really is a problem to solve there. People are using it, many don't 
know, but of those who are, they don't see why it's a problem (and in 
particular, why someone should want to/be able to not use it) because "it 
works" for them.

>> Without 2 and 3, there won't be large scale adoption of the alternatives
> 
> NAK. 1) is enought.
> In the past we fought bigger dragons, eg. getting free from M$.

I don't think that's comparable.

>> - and without that, there is distinctly less incentive for the upstream devs 
>> to keep support for the alternatives.
> 
> Optional. We patch out the crap for packages we need, and drop those we
> don't need.

But it's a lot less ongoing effort to keep that support in upstream. Yes you 
can patch it, but the more embedded systemd becomes, the more patching is 
needed. Keep/get a critical mass so that upstream devs see a case for keeping 
the non-systemd stuff, and maintaining the non-systemd distro is less work.
I cannot see a case for saying that (in total) it's less work to patch a 
package after the fact than it would be to maintain that package in a 
compatible state to start with.

>> do they keep support for the old API ? To do so means more work - 
> > effectively they have to maintain two bits of code everywhere
>> they use that function, and that means more work. 
> 
> Not, quite. Just rapair and support the original API - drop the
> systemd crap entirely.

I think you've missed the point. "Repair and support the original API" isn't an 
option if the upstream dev wants his package to be runable on a systemd system 
- because systemd dev policy appears to be deliberately forcing that binary 
choice of "systemd APIs or nothing" into anything it can. And the team behind 
systemd have shown that they have no intension of fixing anything when they can 
better support their aims by deprecating it and bringing something new (and in 
their eyes, improved) to the table.
If the systemd devs showed the sort of attitude to the rest of the world (devs 
and users) that others espouse, then there'd be no problem. It's the very fact 
that they appear to be forcing this binary choice (systemd or nothing) is why 
we're having this discussion.

That's why I suggest it's important to keep the upstream devs onside - because 
it's a lot easier to keep support for the traditional APIs etc as an integral 
part of a package than it is to go through patching after the fact. And it's 
easier to keep them onside if we can show that there's a large (ie significant) 
user base for the non-systemd version.

At present it's (I assume) fairly easy to patch out systemd-isms as it's not 
been around long enough to get major tentacles into most stuff. Over time that 
will change - systemd will get deeper and deeper into packages, and it will get 
harder and harder to remove it, and to add in the now missing parts.

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Re: [DNG] Linus can no longer trust "init"

[Miles Fidelman]

On 7/11/17 7:55 AM, Simon Hobson wrote:

"Enrico Weigelt, metux IT consult"  wrote:


We don't need to fight anything. Just concentrate on the stuff *we*
need (seriously, does anybobdy here need gnome3 ?) and patch out the
crap when neccessary.

And just not caring about that lennartware crap at all. Not even wasting
time w/ debates about that crap, over and over again. (and yes: that's
really annying me)

Why do you waste your precious lifetime w/ lennartware at all ?

There are (IMO) three things needed :

1) Have an alternative - ie Devuan. In that, I salute those who are actually 
doing the hard stuff I wouldn't know where to start with.

2) Make people aware that there is an alternative.

3) Explain (in rational, technical, non-political) terms why people should care 
that there is a choice - and why we think they would be wise to take it.

Without 2 and 3, there won't be large scale adoption of the alternatives - and 
without that, there is distinctly less incentive for the upstream devs to keep 
support for the alternatives.

As has been mentioned before, part of the "battle plan" for systemd seems to be to keep taking more 
and more "standard stuff", deprecate it, and introduce new systemd versions with a new API. Thus, a 
package they needs to run on a systemd infested system has to support the "new improved" API.
This means that the dev now faces a choice - do they keep support for the old API ? To do 
so means more work - effectively they have to maintain two bits of code everywhere they 
use that function, and that means more work. If they perceive that "hardly 
anyone" still needs the old API - then there's a temptation to drop the old code, or 
stop maintaining it. If that happens, then the job of maintaining that package in a 
non-systemd distro becomes harder.

Ideally, projects like Devuan need to get enough users that they can entice 
package maintainers over from Debian. Wouldn't it be wonderful if Devuan were 
able to take the lead, and Debian end up having to port packages from it - yes 
that's pie in the sky thinking at the moment, but if you don't have ambition 
then ...


So yes, I agree that "discussing" it time and time again (especially in a "preaching 
to the converted" forum) isn't helpful - but just ignoring it isn't going to work either.

___

Exactly.  The issue isn't whether we have systemd-free distros - there 
are more than Devuan (gentoo, the BSDs come to mind) - it's how the 
developer community moves forward.  Do we start seeing important 
packages come out as requiring systemd.




--
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In practice, there is.   Yogi Berra

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Re: [DNG] Linus can no longer trust "init"

[Enrico Weigelt, metux IT consult]

On 11.07.2017 13:55, Simon Hobson wrote:


There are (IMO) three things needed : >
1) Have an alternative - ie Devuan. 


And there're other non-systemd-Distros out there. Just collaborate with
them and ignore the others. (we could also set up some tiny patch-
sending bots that penetrate nasty upstreams w/ patches ...)


In that, I salute those who are actually doing the hard stuff I wouldn't know 
where to start with.


ACK.


2) Make people aware that there is an alternative.


A bit media appearance is fine, but I wouldn't waste too much resources
with that. Better be present on various upstream maillists and post
systemd-removing patches there.


3) Explain (in rational, technical, non-political) terms why people should care 
that there is a choice - and why we think they would be wise to take it.


I wouldn't waste time on that. They have to learn by themselves -
preaching doesn't help.


Without 2 and 3, there won't be large scale adoption of the alternatives


NAK. 1) is enought.
In the past we fought bigger dragons, eg. getting free from M$.


- and without that, there is distinctly less incentive for the upstream devs to 
keep support for the alternatives.


Optional. We patch out the crap for packages we need, and drop those we
don't need. Forget about Gnome3 - let it die alone and silent, as it
deserves.


As has been mentioned before, part of the "battle plan" for systemd

> seems to be to keep taking more and more "standard stuff", deprecate
> it, and introduce new systemd versions with a new API. Thus, a package

they needs to run on a systemd infested system has to support the

> "new improved" API.

Just patch out the crap. And ignore the totally broken packages that
aren't worth the effort.

do they keep support for the old API ? To do so means more work - 

> effectively they have to maintain two bits of code everywhere
they use that function, and that means more work. 


Not, quite. Just rapair and support the original API - drop the
systemd crap entirely.


If that happens, then the job of maintaining that package in a

> non-systemd distro becomes harder.

Well, partial / downstream fork is more work, but all we need is to
be consequent. Of course, we should directly cooperate w/ other
systemd-free distros.


--mtx
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Re: [DNG] Linus can no longer trust "init"

[Simon Hobson]

"Enrico Weigelt, metux IT consult"  wrote:

> We don't need to fight anything. Just concentrate on the stuff *we*
> need (seriously, does anybobdy here need gnome3 ?) and patch out the
> crap when neccessary.
> 
> And just not caring about that lennartware crap at all. Not even wasting
> time w/ debates about that crap, over and over again. (and yes: that's
> really annying me)
> 
> Why do you waste your precious lifetime w/ lennartware at all ?

There are (IMO) three things needed :

1) Have an alternative - ie Devuan. In that, I salute those who are actually 
doing the hard stuff I wouldn't know where to start with.

2) Make people aware that there is an alternative.

3) Explain (in rational, technical, non-political) terms why people should care 
that there is a choice - and why we think they would be wise to take it.

Without 2 and 3, there won't be large scale adoption of the alternatives - and 
without that, there is distinctly less incentive for the upstream devs to keep 
support for the alternatives.

As has been mentioned before, part of the "battle plan" for systemd seems to be 
to keep taking more and more "standard stuff", deprecate it, and introduce new 
systemd versions with a new API. Thus, a package they needs to run on a systemd 
infested system has to support the "new improved" API.
This means that the dev now faces a choice - do they keep support for the old 
API ? To do so means more work - effectively they have to maintain two bits of 
code everywhere they use that function, and that means more work. If they 
perceive that "hardly anyone" still needs the old API - then there's a 
temptation to drop the old code, or stop maintaining it. If that happens, then 
the job of maintaining that package in a non-systemd distro becomes harder.

Ideally, projects like Devuan need to get enough users that they can entice 
package maintainers over from Debian. Wouldn't it be wonderful if Devuan were 
able to take the lead, and Debian end up having to port packages from it - yes 
that's pie in the sky thinking at the moment, but if you don't have ambition 
then ...


So yes, I agree that "discussing" it time and time again (especially in a 
"preaching to the converted" forum) isn't helpful - but just ignoring it isn't 
going to work either.

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Re: [DNG] Linus can no longer trust "init"

[Enrico Weigelt, metux IT consult]

On 10.07.2017 23:10, Steve Litt wrote:


Remember, we're fighting a huge and well funded opponent, possessing
the money to throw at programmers to keep the systemd mess running, as
well as money for publicity to counter common sense with neverending
bulldroppings. Seen in that context, what we've accomplished is a
miracle.


We don't need to fight anything. Just concentrate on the stuff *we*
need (seriously, does anybobdy here need gnome3 ?) and patch out the
crap when neccessary.

And just not caring about that lennartware crap at all. Not even wasting
time w/ debates about that crap, over and over again. (and yes: that's
really annying me)

Why do you waste your precious lifetime w/ lennartware at all ?


--mtx
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Re: [DNG] Linus can no longer trust "init"

[Alexander Bochmann]

...on Mon, Jul 10, 2017 at 05:33:26PM -0400, Miles Fidelman wrote:

 > There's a point at which this all becomes unstoppable, unless some equally
 > well-placed & influential folks start pushing back VERY hard.

That would certainly help, but I also think that it's much more 
important that someone has started actually doing something 
in terms of infrastructure and development, instead of spending 
that time on convincing others to do something.

So here we are, and after following this thing for the past two 
years, I have no doubt that moving all my Debian systems to 
Devuan has been the right choice. So, thank you for making that 
possible, everyone.

At the same time I have no illusions where the market is going - 
my employer now happily buys SuSE and Red Hat licenses instead 
of Solaris or HP-UX, and I won't get them to pick up Devuan 
(except maybe for some fringe stuff under my direct control).

Which really doesn't matter though - it's just the same as in the 
early Debian days, with different roles...

Alex.

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Re: [DNG] Linus can no longer trust "init"

[KatolaZ]

On Mon, Jul 10, 2017 at 05:34:29PM -0500, Nate Bargmann wrote:

[cut]

> > So please, let's stop making fouls of ourselves. The problem is not
> > systemd being or not being free software, rather its creators and
> > sponsors being or not being well-intentioned towards the free software
> > community. And this is not a problem of RMS, or Linus, or anybody else
> > in particular, rather a problem of the community *as a whole*.
> 
> But the community right now is very fractured, perhaps the most
> fractured since I stepped into this world of Linux and Free Software
> nearly 21 years ago.  A divide and conquer strategy has been implemented
> from a direction that took a long time for many of us to recognize and
> accept.  Those of us who have now recognized it are seemingly small but
> growing in number.  So far the most well known name to post to this list
> is Bruce Perens.  I think the community will benefit when others abandon
> neutrality.

Yes, sure, the community will benefit if others abandon
neutrality. But while we wait for the Golem to save the day, we *must*
take action, because the Golem might not come, in the end.

When Devuan was announced, the "experts" said it would have lasted 3
months.

When the Valentine pre-alpha was released, the "experts" told Devuan
would have disappeared in 6 months.

When Jessie Beta was out, the "experts" were sure that Devuan would
collapse within 1 year.

Now Jessie stable is out, and Ascii is in the making. Almost three
years have passed, and we are laying down plans for the next
three/five years. And this is only due to an initially very small
community, with no big names, no big sponsors, and no big money, which
has grown in size, strength, and consciousness.

If Devuan would have waited for the Golem to come and save the day,
then the "experts" would have been proven right two years ago.

As it turned out, DNG *is* the Golem :)

HND

KatolaZ

-- 
[ ~.,_  Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ - GLUGCT -- Freaknet Medialab  ]  
[ "+.  katolaz [at] freaknet.org --- katolaz [at] yahoo.it  ]
[   @)   http://kalos.mine.nu ---  Devuan GNU + Linux User  ]
[ @@)  http://maths.qmul.ac.uk/~vnicosia --  GPG: 0B5F062F  ] 
[ (@@@)  Twitter: @KatolaZ - skype: katolaz -- github: KatolaZ  ]


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Re: [DNG] Linus can no longer trust "init"

[Rick Moen]

Quoting Hendrik Boom (hend...@topoi.pooq.com):

> I believe the Google slogan was "Don't be evil."  "First, do no harm" is 
> from the English translaation of the Hippocratic Oath.

Strictly speaking, that's from 17th C. Latin, really.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primum_non_nocere

In general, though, I've often said 'ὄμνυμι Ἀπόλλωνα ἰητρὸν καὶ
Ἀσκληπιὸν καὶ Ὑγείαν καὶ Πανάκειαν καὶ θεοὺς πάντας τε καὶ πάσας,
ἵστορας ποιεύμενος, ἐπιτελέα ποιήσειν κατὰ δύναμιν καὶ κρίσιν ἐμὴν ὅρκον
τόνδε καὶσυγγραφὴν τήνδε.'


(Prayers to Πανάκειαν do tend to help in debugging code.  ;->   )



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Re: [DNG] Linus can no longer trust "init"

[Nate Bargmann]

* On 2017 10 Jul 20:41 -0500, Hendrik Boom wrote:
> On Mon, Jul 10, 2017 at 05:34:29PM -0500, Nate Bargmann wrote:

> I believe the Google slogan was "Don't be evil."  "First, do no harm" is 
> from the English translaation of the Hippocratic Oath.

Sigh.

Just like Abe Lincoln said, "The problem with Internet quotes is that
you can't always depend on their accuracy."

;-)

(Though it may have helped to actually do a search...)

> The fsf internet site originally had no passwords on it at all, with th 
> eintention that anyone could just connect and participate in the great 
> work.  RMS was appalled when someone used that freedom to use his site 
> to atack another network site.  It was a dark day in the life of the FSF 
> when he had to impose passwords for system access.

Yes, RMS is from a far different and nearly forgotten prior era.  AIUI,
the FSF, GPL, and his later work is an effort to preserve some of the
spirit of those times.  I know that without his work and the follow-on
work of countless others that the past 20+ years of computing would not
have been nearly as enjoyable as they have been for me.

- Nate

-- 

"The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all
possible worlds.  The pessimist fears this is true."

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Re: [DNG] Linus can no longer trust "init"

[Hendrik Boom]

On Mon, Jul 10, 2017 at 05:34:29PM -0500, Nate Bargmann wrote:

> 
> A [L]GPL'ed worm or virus is Free Software, but is it acceptable
> software?  Of course, if we're only concerned about its licensing, we
> won't have a care what it does to user's computers or data.
> 
> It has always seemed to me that an implicit part of the GPL is the old
> Google slogan, "Do no harm."

I believe the Google slogan was "Don't be evil."  "First, do no harm" is 
from the English translaation of the Hippocratic Oath.

> 
> It has been long ago, perhaps the better part of two decades since I
> read this, but RMS was not a fan of computer security as it developed
> around him.

The fsf internet site originally had no passwords on it at all, with th 
eintention that anyone could just connect and participate in the great 
work.  RMS was appalled when someone used that freedom to use his site 
to atack another network site.  It was a dark day in the life of the FSF 
when he had to impose passwords for system access.

-- hendrik
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Re: [DNG] Linus can no longer trust "init"

[Douglas Guptill]

On Mon, Jul 10, 2017 at 02:53:47PM -0700, Rick Moen wrote:

> Well, there _was_ the xemacs vs. GNU emacs matter.
> 
> (I teased Richard at one point over dinner by saying 'I hope you don't
> mind that I'm a vi user.  But he had a beautiful comeback;  'We of the
> Church of Emacs do not consider use of vi a sin, but rather penance.')

Priceless!

Douglas.
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Re: [DNG] Linus can no longer trust "init"

[Nate Bargmann]

* On 2017 10 Jul 14:24 -0500, KatolaZ wrote:
> On Mon, Jul 10, 2017 at 01:53:09PM -0500, Nate Bargmann wrote:
> > Unfortunately, that seems to be the case.  Just because the code is GPL,
> > it seems fine by him.
> 
> Sorry, but I really don't see what RMS should do here. He has focussed
> his entire life on the fundamental problem of making sure that
> software remains free, as in speech, and he has always (and
> rightfully, IMHO) avoided to intervene in any technical battle we have
> seen in the free-software world in the last 30 years, with the only
> hilarious exception of the vi-vs-emacs farse, epitomised in the
> fictious character of St. IGNUcious

I certainly do not disagree.

> From a technical point of view, systemd is free software, and trying
> to deny it is just stupid: you can fork the code from github, and have
> a go at it, modify it as you like, and redistribute it under the terms
> of the GNU LGPL 2.1 (yes, it's LGPL, not GPL). And concerning the
> legendary "forced adoption", the distros out there have *chosen*
> systemd, on the basis of a set of risible "technical aspects", but
> still, they have *chosen* it.

A [L]GPL'ed worm or virus is Free Software, but is it acceptable
software?  Of course, if we're only concerned about its licensing, we
won't have a care what it does to user's computers or data.

It has always seemed to me that an implicit part of the GPL is the old
Google slogan, "Do no harm."

It has been long ago, perhaps the better part of two decades since I
read this, but RMS was not a fan of computer security as it developed
around him.  While he appears more accepting now, he is no Bruce
Schneier.  Therefore, I am not surprised that he does not weigh in on
such matters.

IMO, there is a level of responsibility to the users and their resources
that should surround Free Software development.

> So please, let's stop making fouls of ourselves. The problem is not
> systemd being or not being free software, rather its creators and
> sponsors being or not being well-intentioned towards the free software
> community. And this is not a problem of RMS, or Linus, or anybody else
> in particular, rather a problem of the community *as a whole*.

But the community right now is very fractured, perhaps the most
fractured since I stepped into this world of Linux and Free Software
nearly 21 years ago.  A divide and conquer strategy has been implemented
from a direction that took a long time for many of us to recognize and
accept.  Those of us who have now recognized it are seemingly small but
growing in number.  So far the most well known name to post to this list
is Bruce Perens.  I think the community will benefit when others abandon
neutrality.

Why that has not happened yet is that I suspect for a number of those
people there has been a hope that cooler heads would prevail, that a
better design would emerge, and that community engagement would become
more open.  Also, no one of any recognition wants to be seen as engaging
in conspiracy theories which, up until recently, criticism has been
dismissed out of hand as being borne of conspiracy theories.

> Instead of asking what RMS can do against systemd, I would rather ask
> myself what I can do to avoid the systemd avalanche. Hoping that
> Superman will zoom over New York and save the world will not help
> saving the world.

If you took my comment as minimizing all of the hard work done by the
Devuan team, that was certainly not my intention.  In fact, that thought
never even entered my mind.

And really, I don't fault RMS.  I was merely making an observation.

- Nate

-- 

"The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all
possible worlds.  The pessimist fears this is true."

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Re: [DNG] Linus can no longer trust "init"

[Rick Moen]

Quoting KatolaZ (kato...@freaknet.org):

> Sorry, but I really don't see what RMS should do here. He has focussed
> his entire life on the fundamental problem of making sure that
> software remains free, as in speech, and he has always (and
> rightfully, IMHO) avoided to intervene in any technical battle we have
> seen in the free-software world in the last 30 years, with the only
> hilarious exception of the vi-vs-emacs farse, epitomised in the
> fictious character of St. IGNUcious

Well, there _was_ the xemacs vs. GNU emacs matter.

(I teased Richard at one point over dinner by saying 'I hope you don't
mind that I'm a vi user.  But he had a beautiful comeback;  'We of the
Church of Emacs do not consider use of vi a sin, but rather penance.')

-- 
Cheers, The Viking's Reminder:
Rick Moen   Pillage first, _then_ burn.
r...@linuxmafia.com
McQ!  (4x80)
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Re: [DNG] Linus can no longer trust "init"

[Miles Fidelman]

On 7/10/17 4:37 PM, goli...@dyne.org wrote:


On 2017-07-10 15:25, Miles Fidelman wrote:


We are the community. We need to act for ourselves.



So far, that's not working all that well.

Miles Fidelman


Miles, I just have to ask   If you think think it's not working too 
well who is to blame?   Please answer this question . . . what you 
have done lately for Devuan?  If not you and each and everyone of us, 
who?



For Devuan, not much.

As a user, I have not installed any version of Debian that uses systemd, 
and I've basically stopped contributing to the Debian-user list (other 
than to recommend that folks avoid ecosystems that have become enmeshed 
with systemd).


As to, who is to blame - systemd is being pushed by a very well placed, 
very well funded group of people - and, despite LOTS of objections, the 
Debian powers that be adopted systemd lock, stock, and barrel, and 
basically rejected all those who objected.  And, as goes Debian, so goes 
a bunch of other distros.


There's a point at which this all becomes unstoppable, unless some 
equally well-placed & influential folks start pushing back VERY hard.


By the way - let me note that, when I posted here a few months back, 
asking who was going to be at the Libre Planet conference in Boston - in 
the hopes of organizing a panel or a BOF session - pretty much the 
unanimous answer was "can't make it."


Miles Fidelman

--
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In practice, there is.   Yogi Berra

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Re: [DNG] Linus can no longer trust "init"

[Steve Litt]

On Mon, 10 Jul 2017 16:25:27 -0400
Miles Fidelman  wrote:

> On 7/10/17 4:17 PM, KatolaZ wrote:
[snip]
> > We are the community. We need to act for ourselves.
> >
> >  
> So far, that's not working all that well.
> 
> Miles Fidelman

I'm not sure of that, Miles. The proponents of systemd have left a lot
of roads open to those who don't want to go along. I have a feeling
their strategic plan, in 8/2014, would have left us with no non-systemd
place to go using a Linux kernel. I think we all have made a difference.

Remember, we're fighting a huge and well funded opponent, possessing
the money to throw at programmers to keep the systemd mess running, as
well as money for publicity to counter common sense with neverending
bulldroppings. Seen in that context, what we've accomplished is a
miracle.

On another note, I'm so happy to see you here at DNG. I think your
consistent resistance to systemd back on Debian-User was part of what
caused the GR, and the kangaroo court handling of the GR was what
caused Debian to go supernova, spreading its former experts across all
sorts of distros and communities, enhancing the growth rate of Devuan.

SteveT

Steve Litt 
July 2017 featured book: Quit Joblessness: Start Your Own Business
http://www.troubleshooters.com/startbiz
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Re: [DNG] Linus can no longer trust "init"

[zap]

On 07/10/2017 03:23 PM, KatolaZ wrote:
> On Mon, Jul 10, 2017 at 01:53:09PM -0500, Nate Bargmann wrote:
>> * On 2017 10 Jul 12:45 -0500, mdn wrote:
>>> Le 10/07/2017 19:29, zap a écrit :
 I hope linus does something about it. I Really wish stallman would take
 this seriously as a security risk.
>>> I too but RMS just care about licensing and a bit community relations
>>> atm (from what I can observe).
>> Unfortunately, that seems to be the case.  Just because the code is GPL,
>> it seems fine by him.
> Sorry, but I really don't see what RMS should do here. He has focussed
> his entire life on the fundamental problem of making sure that
> software remains free, as in speech, and he has always (and
> rightfully, IMHO) avoided to intervene in any technical battle we have
> seen in the free-software world in the last 30 years, with the only
> hilarious exception of the vi-vs-emacs farse, epitomised in the
> fictious character of St. IGNUcious
>
> From a technical point of view, systemd is free software, and trying
> to deny it is just stupid: you can fork the code from github, and have
> a go at it, modify it as you like, and redistribute it under the terms
> of the GNU LGPL 2.1 (yes, it's LGPL, not GPL). And concerning the
> legendary "forced adoption", the distros out there have *chosen*
> systemd, on the basis of a set of risible "technical aspects", but
> still, they have *chosen* it.
>
> So please, let's stop making fouls of ourselves. The problem is not
> systemd being or not being free software, rather its creators and
> sponsors being or not being well-intentioned towards the free software
> community. And this is not a problem of RMS, or Linus, or anybody else
> in particular, rather a problem of the community *as a whole*.
>
> Instead of asking what RMS can do against systemd, I would rather ask
> myself what I can do to avoid the systemd avalanche. Hoping that
> Superman will zoom over New York and save the world will not help
> saving the world. 

That is a good point, it is like asking superman to save the world... it
just won't happen. 

The community needs to reject it with every bit of strength it has.
> HND
>
> KatolaZ
>
>
>
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Re: [DNG] Linus can no longer trust "init"

[golinux]

On 2017-07-10 15:25, Miles Fidelman wrote:


We are the community. We need to act for ourselves.



So far, that's not working all that well.

Miles Fidelman


Miles, I just have to ask   If you think think it's not working too well 
who is to blame?   Please answer this question . . . what you have done 
lately for Devuan?  If not you and each and everyone of us, who?


golinux



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Re: [DNG] Linus can no longer trust "init"

[Miles Fidelman]

On 7/10/17 4:17 PM, KatolaZ wrote:


On Mon, Jul 10, 2017 at 04:07:48PM -0400, Miles Fidelman wrote:

[cut]


Systemd may be free, but it's approach to agglomerating function after
function, and becoming a requirement for more and more other software - is
an affront to software freedom.  That MIGHT be, or become, of interest &
concern to him.  It really is time to start raising the issue through the
FSF - on the libreplanet-discuss email list, at the annual conference, etc.

It might also be of interest to Eric Raymond (Cathedral & The Bazaar).


Miles, is it of interest to *you*? Great, then raise the issue
wherever you can, do whatever you can to let people know that this is
bullshit, do whatever you can to help projects which are trying to
develop alternatives to systemd. Why shall you wait for RMS or ESR to
get into the battle? If devuan were still waiting for RMS or Linus or
whoever else to join the quest, we would not have much to talk about
today.

The community is not an abstract mass of unspecified people. The
community is a collection of *individuals*, and the actions of a
community are the result of the actions of the individuals that are
part of it.


Well, I do.  But I'm nowhere near as visible, or influential, as a Linus 
Torvalds, or RMS, or Eric Raymond.  When it comes to distros and init 
systems, I'm basically a server-side user, in the context of internal 
operations & a tiny service bureau.


I'm pretty much limited to being very careful about the distros I run, 
and the packages I install - and it's becoming harder and harder to 
avoid the systemd hairball.


What we need are folks in a position to influence interfaces, standards, 
tools, and general design practices across the developer community 
(e.g., exhorting folks to develop software that is not dependent on 
systemd).




It might be time to make systemd-free a "campaign" (in the same sense as
"anybrowser").


A "campaign" is made of single actions, and does not need to be
orchestrated by a supernatural entity. I know that they are doing
whatever is in their ability to let us believe the contrary, but in
this community each and every opinion matters, and each and every
action is important and meaningful. The only meaningless action is
waiting for somebody else to come up with a meaningful action on
behalf of the entire community...

We are the community. We need to act for ourselves.



So far, that's not working all that well.

Miles Fidelman

--
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
In practice, there is.   Yogi Berra

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Re: [DNG] Linus can no longer trust "init"

[KatolaZ]

On Mon, Jul 10, 2017 at 04:07:48PM -0400, Miles Fidelman wrote:

[cut]

> 
> Systemd may be free, but it's approach to agglomerating function after
> function, and becoming a requirement for more and more other software - is
> an affront to software freedom.  That MIGHT be, or become, of interest &
> concern to him.  It really is time to start raising the issue through the
> FSF - on the libreplanet-discuss email list, at the annual conference, etc.
> 
> It might also be of interest to Eric Raymond (Cathedral & The Bazaar).
>

Miles, is it of interest to *you*? Great, then raise the issue
wherever you can, do whatever you can to let people know that this is
bullshit, do whatever you can to help projects which are trying to
develop alternatives to systemd. Why shall you wait for RMS or ESR to
get into the battle? If devuan were still waiting for RMS or Linus or
whoever else to join the quest, we would not have much to talk about
today.

The community is not an abstract mass of unspecified people. The
community is a collection of *individuals*, and the actions of a
community are the result of the actions of the individuals that are
part of it.

> It might be time to make systemd-free a "campaign" (in the same sense as
> "anybrowser").
> 

A "campaign" is made of single actions, and does not need to be
orchestrated by a supernatural entity. I know that they are doing
whatever is in their ability to let us believe the contrary, but in
this community each and every opinion matters, and each and every
action is important and meaningful. The only meaningless action is
waiting for somebody else to come up with a meaningful action on
behalf of the entire community...

We are the community. We need to act for ourselves.

KatolaZ

-- 
[ ~.,_  Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ - GLUGCT -- Freaknet Medialab  ]  
[ "+.  katolaz [at] freaknet.org --- katolaz [at] yahoo.it  ]
[   @)   http://kalos.mine.nu ---  Devuan GNU + Linux User  ]
[ @@)  http://maths.qmul.ac.uk/~vnicosia --  GPG: 0B5F062F  ] 
[ (@@@)  Twitter: @KatolaZ - skype: katolaz -- github: KatolaZ  ]


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Re: [DNG] Linus can no longer trust "init"

[Emiliano Marini]

copy of one of Teodore Tso comments:

So I can't speak for Linus, but the reason why I can't trust systemd is
> that I don't believe that the systemd maintainers have "good taste" --- as
> used by Linus in his TED talk: ted.com - The mind behind Linux
> 
>
> And it's not about how to code singly-linked lists, but as Linus says,
> it's something bigger. "Good taste is about really seeing the big patterns
> and kind of instinctively knowing what's the right way to do things." It's
> hard to explain, other than to give examples, and so that's why Linus gave
> the linked-list example and people immediately lock into that --- because
> it's concrete. But the "good taste" thing is a lot more than that; it's
> just that trying to define "good taste" and "good judgement" can be a very
> hard thing to do.
>
> For me a lot of "good taste" is about adding complexity when it's needed,
> and avoiding it when it's not needed. And if you do have complexity, making
> sure you have the tools so you can debug things when they break. And for me
> one of the things that I don't like about systemd is that it has added a
> lot of complexity, and when it breaks, trying to debug it can be almost
> impossible.
>
> For example, sometimes (it's flaky and intermittent) systemd will think
> that a device hasn't appeared, when it darned well has (you can see it in
> /dev), and so it will hang the boot and you can drop into single-user
> shell, but there's nothing you can do to debug it --- or force systemd to
> understand that, no really, the device is there, and you should let those
> unit files blocked on the device dependency to start. I've ultimately
> worked around the problem by removing all of my automatically mounted
> partitions (except for the root partition) from /etc/fstab, and adding the
> following to /etc/rc.local:
>
> (e2fsck -p /dev/callcc/build && mount /dev/callcc/build) &
> (e2fsck -p /dev/callcc/media && mount /dev/callcc/media) &
>  etc.
>
> It's not that there was a bug, and I had to work around the bug. Bugs
> happen. They happened with Sysvinit scripts, but I always could debug them,
> because, well, they were shell scripts. It's the fact that systemd has
> added all of this extra complexity, and there is absolutely zero way of
> debugging it. For me, that's a sign of inexecrable taste.
>


On Mon, Jul 10, 2017 at 5:11 PM, Emiliano Marini  wrote:

> I think it's clear he's talking about systemd when he says:
>
> "You all presumably know why."
>
> Plus, there is some interesting comments from Teodore Tso talking about 
> systemd in G+ https://plus.google.com/+TheodoreTso/posts/EJrEuxjR65J
>
>
>
> On Mon, Jul 10, 2017 at 4:39 PM, Steve Litt 
> wrote:
>
>> What did Linux mean by "init"? A lot of people use the word "init"
>> synonomously with sysvinit, in which case this would appear to be bad
>> news for us. On the other hand, perhaps he use "init" to mean the init
>> system, regardless of brand. I can't tell from context.
>>
>> SteveT
>>
>>
>> On Mon, 10 Jul 2017 08:57:33 -0700
>> Bruce Perens  wrote:
>>
>> > The entire paragraph is even more damning:
>> >
>> > And yes, a large part of this may be that I no longer feel like I can
>> > trust "init" to do the sane thing. You all presumably know why.
>> >
>> >
>> > On Mon, Jul 10, 2017 at 7:20 AM, Emiliano Marini
>> > > > > wrote:
>> >
>> > > I no longer feel like I can
>> > > trust "init"
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > https://lkml.org/lkml/2017/7/6/577
>> > >
>> > > ___
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>> > > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
>> > >
>> > >
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Re: [DNG] Linus can no longer trust "init"

[Emiliano Marini]

I think it's clear he's talking about systemd when he says:

"You all presumably know why."

Plus, there is some interesting comments from Teodore Tso talking
about systemd in G+
https://plus.google.com/+TheodoreTso/posts/EJrEuxjR65J



On Mon, Jul 10, 2017 at 4:39 PM, Steve Litt 
wrote:

> What did Linux mean by "init"? A lot of people use the word "init"
> synonomously with sysvinit, in which case this would appear to be bad
> news for us. On the other hand, perhaps he use "init" to mean the init
> system, regardless of brand. I can't tell from context.
>
> SteveT
>
>
> On Mon, 10 Jul 2017 08:57:33 -0700
> Bruce Perens  wrote:
>
> > The entire paragraph is even more damning:
> >
> > And yes, a large part of this may be that I no longer feel like I can
> > trust "init" to do the sane thing. You all presumably know why.
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Jul 10, 2017 at 7:20 AM, Emiliano Marini
> >  > > wrote:
> >
> > > I no longer feel like I can
> > > trust "init"
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > https://lkml.org/lkml/2017/7/6/577
> > >
> > > ___
> > > Dng mailing list
> > > Dng@lists.dyne.org
> > > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
> > >
> > >
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Re: [DNG] Linus can no longer trust "init"

[Adam Borowski]

On Mon, Jul 10, 2017 at 01:53:09PM -0500, Nate Bargmann wrote:
> * On 2017 10 Jul 12:45 -0500, mdn wrote:
> > Le 10/07/2017 19:29, zap a écrit :
> > > I hope linus does something about it.
> 
> As for Linus, I think he'll only do something if he is given an
> ultimatum of supporting only  SD's flavor of the week API.

Linus doesn't want to be involved in what userspace you run.
He's also very, very reluctant to break any userspace, so you can expect
sane -- and insane -- systems to continue to work.

He tries as hard as he can to _not_ have a monkey in this fight.

-- 
⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀ 
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⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ A smart species invents a can opener.
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Re: [DNG] Linus can no longer trust "init"

[Nate Bargmann]

* On 2017 10 Jul 12:45 -0500, mdn wrote:
> Le 10/07/2017 19:29, zap a écrit :
> > I hope linus does something about it. I Really wish stallman would take
> > this seriously as a security risk.
> I too but RMS just care about licensing and a bit community relations
> atm (from what I can observe).

Unfortunately, that seems to be the case.  Just because the code is GPL,
it seems fine by him.

As for Linus, I think he'll only do something if he is given an
ultimatum of supporting only  SD's flavor of the week API.

- Nate

-- 

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possible worlds.  The pessimist fears this is true."

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Re: [DNG] Linus can no longer trust "init"

[mdn]

Le 10/07/2017 19:29, zap a écrit :
> I hope linus does something about it. I Really wish stallman would take
> this seriously as a security risk.
I too but RMS just care about licensing and a bit community relations
atm (from what I can observe).
He's been out of tech for a while.
> 
> 
> On 07/10/2017 12:46 PM, Vincent Bentley wrote:
>> Perhaps Linus will be brave enough to stand up to RedHat and request
>> that they fork Linux 4.x into SystemD so that Linux 5.0 will use SysV as
>> the reference init. SystemD will eventually replace the Linux kernel so
>> why not just fork it now and take their followers with them.
>>
>> On 10/07/17 16:57, Bruce Perens wrote:
>>> The entire paragraph is even more damning:
>>>
>>> And yes, a large part of this may be that I no longer feel like I can
>>> trust "init" to do the sane thing. You all presumably know why.
>>
>>
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Re: [DNG] Linus can no longer trust "init"

[zap]

I hope linus does something about it. I Really wish stallman would take
this seriously as a security risk.


On 07/10/2017 12:46 PM, Vincent Bentley wrote:
> Perhaps Linus will be brave enough to stand up to RedHat and request
> that they fork Linux 4.x into SystemD so that Linux 5.0 will use SysV as
> the reference init. SystemD will eventually replace the Linux kernel so
> why not just fork it now and take their followers with them.
>
> On 10/07/17 16:57, Bruce Perens wrote:
>> The entire paragraph is even more damning:
>>
>> And yes, a large part of this may be that I no longer feel like I can
>> trust "init" to do the sane thing. You all presumably know why.
>
>
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Re: [DNG] Linus can no longer trust "init"

[Vincent Bentley]

Perhaps Linus will be brave enough to stand up to RedHat and request
that they fork Linux 4.x into SystemD so that Linux 5.0 will use SysV as
the reference init. SystemD will eventually replace the Linux kernel so
why not just fork it now and take their followers with them.

On 10/07/17 16:57, Bruce Perens wrote:
> The entire paragraph is even more damning:
> 
> And yes, a large part of this may be that I no longer feel like I can
> trust "init" to do the sane thing. You all presumably know why.



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Re: [DNG] Linus can no longer trust "init"

[Emiliano Marini]

Indeed.

On Mon, Jul 10, 2017 at 12:57 PM, Bruce Perens  wrote:

> The entire paragraph is even more damning:
>
> And yes, a large part of this may be that I no longer feel like I can
> trust "init" to do the sane thing. You all presumably know why.
>
>
> On Mon, Jul 10, 2017 at 7:20 AM, Emiliano Marini <
> emilianomarin...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I no longer feel like I can
>> trust "init"
>>
>>
>>
>> https://lkml.org/lkml/2017/7/6/577
>>
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Re: [DNG] Linus can no longer trust "init"

[Bruce Perens]

The entire paragraph is even more damning:

And yes, a large part of this may be that I no longer feel like I can
trust "init" to do the sane thing. You all presumably know why.


On Mon, Jul 10, 2017 at 7:20 AM, Emiliano Marini  wrote:

> I no longer feel like I can
> trust "init"
>
>
>
> https://lkml.org/lkml/2017/7/6/577
>
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[DNG] Linus can no longer trust "init"

[Emiliano Marini]

I no longer feel like I can
trust "init"



https://lkml.org/lkml/2017/7/6/577
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