Re: [DNG] Refracta no-dbus experiment
From: fsmithred To: dng@lists.dyne.org Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2018 7:17 AM Subject: Re: [DNG] Refracta no-dbus experiment On 06/19/2018 03:44 AM, Jimmy Johnson wrote: >> >> I was setting at the check box's. I finished the install and it said it >> was done and to reboot. I rebooted but nothing was installed!?! >> >> I choose a no-format install with existing /home all on /sda2. It >> collected user name, root and user passwd. My partitions are ext4 is >> that a problem? > > > I went and installed Devuan Jessie net-install minimum and tdebase as I > had the partition ready for install, I'm using it now. But I have more > partitions, maybe try again later. :) > > Thanks, It sounds like you were trying to do this with only one partition. If you use either of the 'separate /home' options, /home needs to have its own partition, and the OS needs another partition. There's no problem using ext4. That's the default. If you want something other than ext2/3/4 you need to format it how you want and use the 'no-format' option. fsr ___ In my limited experience, I've gotten a message saying, in effect: You must have a / partition for the system. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Refracta no-dbus experiment
On 06/19/2018 03:44 AM, Jimmy Johnson wrote: >> >> I was setting at the check box's. I finished the install and it said it >> was done and to reboot. I rebooted but nothing was installed!?! >> >> I choose a no-format install with existing /home all on /sda2. It >> collected user name, root and user passwd. My partitions are ext4 is >> that a problem? > > > I went and installed Devuan Jessie net-install minimum and tdebase as I > had the partition ready for install, I'm using it now. But I have more > partitions, maybe try again later. :) > > Thanks, It sounds like you were trying to do this with only one partition. If you use either of the 'separate /home' options, /home needs to have its own partition, and the OS needs another partition. There's no problem using ext4. That's the default. If you want something other than ext2/3/4 you need to format it how you want and use the 'no-format' option. fsr ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Refracta no-dbus experiment
On 06/18/2018 07:45 PM, Jimmy Johnson wrote: On 06/18/2018 04:49 PM, fsmithred wrote: On 06/18/2018 05:18 PM, Jimmy Johnson wrote: On 06/15/2018 12:34 PM, fsmithred wrote: Refracta no-dbus build (experiment) Nice and fast. I have the installer running now on my thinkpad, I see no option to pick a partition, I want to install on /dev/sda2. Is this possible? Thanks, Yes, it's possible. I can't tell where you are in the installation process. After the partitioner, you should get questions about what partitions to use and what filesystem type you want on it. Then you'll get a summary window that tells you what you told the installer to do. Then it does it. Username and passwords come up at the end. fsr I was setting at the check box's. I finished the install and it said it was done and to reboot. I rebooted but nothing was installed!?! I choose a no-format install with existing /home all on /sda2. It collected user name, root and user passwd. My partitions are ext4 is that a problem? I went and installed Devuan Jessie net-install minimum and tdebase as I had the partition ready for install, I'm using it now. But I have more partitions, maybe try again later. :) Thanks, -- Jimmy Johnson Devuan Jessie - TDE Trinity R14.0.4 - Intel 3320M - EXT4 at sda2 Registered Linux User #380263 ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Refracta no-dbus experiment
On 06/18/2018 05:18 PM, Jimmy Johnson wrote: > On 06/15/2018 12:34 PM, fsmithred wrote: >> Refracta no-dbus build (experiment) >> > > > Nice and fast. > I have the installer running now on my thinkpad, I see no option to pick a > partition, I want to install on /dev/sda2. Is this possible? > > Thanks, Yes, it's possible. I can't tell where you are in the installation process. After the partitioner, you should get questions about what partitions to use and what filesystem type you want on it. Then you'll get a summary window that tells you what you told the installer to do. Then it does it. Username and passwords come up at the end. fsr ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Refracta no-dbus experiment
On 06/15/2018 12:34 PM, fsmithred wrote: Refracta no-dbus build (experiment) The subject of running without dbus comes up from time to time in various places. I decided to try it and see how far I could get. I started with a debootstrap install of devuan ascii, pinned dbus to a priority of -1, and proceeded to make the same changes as I do to make Refracta live isos. Normally, the Refracta isos use xfce, but that's not possible without dbus. I was surprised to see how much did install without dbus. So I thought I'd share it. This build uses openbox, lxpanel, lxterminal and spacefm. Maybe someone will want to use it. Maybe it will inspire someone else to do something better. Feeback is welcome. http://distro.ibiblio.org/refracta/files/experimental/refracta9_nodbus_amd64-20180612_0156.iso sha256sum: 633634c3ac2beb06252b29bc78b3135f5f5ded473a72f42e5dc6c17d326d1f17 Login/Password: user/user root/root No display manager. Run 'startx' to get a desktop. # These can be installed without dbus and without libsystemd0 rsync bash-completion busybox kbd locales firmware-linux-free deborphan unzip lvm2 cryptsetup sshfs \ hwinfo alsa-utils moc pppoeconf pppconfig pppoe ntfs-3g dosfstools curl \ live-boot live-config live-boot-initramfs-tools live-config-sysvinit squashfs-tools xorriso pmount pv \ syslinux syslinux-common syslinux-utils isolinux xz-utils gdisk parted hexedit iftop smartmontools lm-sensors \ hdparm testdisk fdupes irssi iptraf ethtool scrot wipe mlocate wireless-tools wpasupplicant \ # get libdbus-1-3 here gddrescue screen feh hddtemp p7zip-full partimage pm-utils sysv-rc-conf tree wodim htop bzip2 whois \ lsb-release file setnet net-tools cifs-utils mdadm arp-scan \ dialog live-boot-doc live-config-doc refractainstaller-base refractasnapshot-base \ btrfs-tools btrfs-progs pciutils psmisc rename tcpd usbutils uuid-runtime dnsutils \ eject telnet usbutils util-linux-locales vrms mutt sudo # These were installed after allowing libsystemd0 xorg openbox spacefm lxterminal lxpanel obconf lxappearance lxappearance-obconf lxrandr \ linux-headers-4.9.0-6-amd64 build-essential xserver-xorg-legacy xserver-xephyr xterm aptitude \ icewm xarchiver leafpad links2 xpdf mpv yad ***grub-of-your-choice*** x11vnc xtightvncviewer grsync bleachbit meld asunder winff \ mplayer ffmpeg volumeicon-alsa tilda geeqie dkms transmission-gtk gftp \ xserver-xorg-video-intel xscreensaver xinput libnotify-bin hexchat \ abiword hardinfo gdmap gimp geany firejail firefox-esr deadbeef http://sourceforge.net/projects/deadbeef/files/debian/deadbeef-static_0.7.2-2_amd64.deb/download firemenu https://sourceforge.net/projects/refracta/files/Extras/firemenu-1.2.deb refracta2usb https://sourceforge.net/projects/refracta/files/tools/refracta2usb-2.3.6.deb These will NOT install. (and probably a lot more that I didn't try.) audacious xfburn wicd connman libpam-elogind synaptic gdebi fsmithred Nice and fast. I have the installer running now on my thinkpad, I see no option to pick a partition, I want to install on /dev/sda2. Is this possible? Thanks, -- Jimmy Johnson Devuan Jessie - TDE Trinity R14.0.4 - AMD A8-7600 - EXT4 at sda2 Registered Linux User #380263 ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Refracta no-dbus experiment
On Sat, 16 Jun 2018 22:39:51 -0400, Steve wrote in message <20180616223951.23a1c...@mydesk.domain.cxm>: > > Linus has been critical of the protocol design. At the time > > the kdbus kernel module was proposed, He said that flaws in > > in the protocol are to blame for poor performance rather > > than kernel limitations. > > > > Also, some blame can be laid on the application developers. > > It's one thing to use dbus for automounting an external > > drive, other to use it hundreds or thousands of times per > > second. However from their point of view, convenience > > matters more, and processors are certain to get faster. > > I'd be even more critical: I think a lot of the use of dbus is so the > programmer can brag dbus programming on their resume. ..maybe we should teach HR people the fine art of asking the right dumb questions to help them avoid the wrong dumb expensive hiring of such people claiming such bragging rights on dbus. Etc. ..we could augment that by advicing C-level people on how their HR staff skills impacts programmer etc production staff hiring, which again impacts product quality, which again etc eventually impacts both their own profit share, and their share holders profits. > > Those who care enough about reducing the overhead will avoid > > or limit their use of dbus. > > Agreed. ..having HR people make such dbus etc braggers come up with simple answers on "why", rather than the usual avalanche on "how", will help hiring businesses pick the good competent profitable staff they need to become or remain profitable businesses. ..good "why" questions on "why a solution was chosen over another" in e.g. a dbus git branch, of course require a fair bit of research, which again creates new(?) markets for such good questions and HR staff hiring interview coaching, etc. ..which again I hope will improve future code quality by discouraging future such dbus, pulseaudio, gnome, systemd etc type resume builder code "quality", e.g. funded and written by people coaching HR staff weeding out the sources of such "quality." -- ..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt Karlsen ...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry... Scenarios always come in sets of three: best case, worst case, and just in case. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Refracta no-dbus experiment
On Sat, 16 Jun 2018 12:32:53 -1000 Joel Roth wrote: > Svante Signell wrote: > > This is a really good initiative :) Let's get rid of that dbus > > bloat! > > I'm reading a little more about dbus, and find it was > developed by Havoc Pennington, one of the important kernel > contributors, IIRC. > > I'm not sure *I* need it, but he makes a good case for it > and explains some apparent oddities here: > > https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8648437 Ugh! > > in response to this critical article. > > http://gentooexperimental.org/~patrick/weblog/archives/2014-11.html As I suspected. Litt's opinion: The whole concept of one central message center to unite them all is deeply flawed. First of all, it's a horrible violation of encapsulation. The implication is everything is everybody else's business. What could *possibly* go wrong. Corba, COM, DCOP, dbus, the desired outcome is undesirable. My personal experience with DCOP and dbus, via KDE applications, was abominable. At one time, before I dumped ALL KDE apps (pretty much for the same reasons I refuse to get involved with systemd) in 2012, I wrote a daemon that: 1) Every 5 seconds did a PS to see all dbus-daemon pids that consumed over 95% of CPU 2) Any such pids that had produced a similar result 5 seconds before was killed with a kill -9 It was only after I started running that daemon that I could go a whole day without having to kill and restart X. Before DCOP and DBUS were written, we knew from Corba and COM that any solutions to this "IPC" need were hugely complex. Sure enough, dbus is complex enough that it's almost unexplainable, according to the second URL you provided (and I sure can't explain it). And it's handled by the FreeDesktop.Org folks, who are fervent fans of complexity. I've always felt if two processes need to communicate, they should do it between themselves. One time I wrote some programs to digitize vinyl records, and of course I wanted to spend the time one record played and was being recorded to input the metadata for the next record. I did it with a queue and a couple shellscripts, visible on page 20 of the following: http://troubleshooters.com/linux/presentations/leap_digitizing/leap_digitizing.pdf I have created playlist managers, consisting of multiple processes, who communicate via files, and signal each other of the immediate availablilty of the file using a kill -s USER1 to inform the other process. And the beauty is, these communications had no way to find their way to other processes, because they were specifically programmed for processes that needed them. > Linus has been critical of the protocol design. At the time > the kdbus kernel module was proposed, He said that flaws in > in the protocol are to blame for poor performance rather > than kernel limitations. > > Also, some blame can be laid on the application developers. > It's one thing to use dbus for automounting an external > drive, other to use it hundreds or thousands of times per > second. However from their point of view, convenience > matters more, and processors are certain to get faster. I'd be even more critical: I think a lot of the use of dbus is so the programmer can brag dbus programming on their resume. > Those who care enough about reducing the overhead will avoid > or limit their use of dbus. Agreed. SteveT Steve Litt June 2018 featured book: Twenty Eight Tales of Troubleshooting http://www.troubleshooters.com/28 ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Refracta no-dbus experiment
On Sat, 16 Jun 2018 12:32:53 -1000, Joel wrote in message <20180616223253.5y7ppwimthm3qidz@sprite>: > Svante Signell wrote: > > This is a really good initiative :) Let's get rid of that dbus > > bloat! > > I'm reading a little more about dbus, and find it was > developed by Havoc Pennington, one of the important kernel > contributors, IIRC. > > I'm not sure *I* need it, but he makes a good case for it > and explains some apparent oddities here: > > https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8648437 ..actually, "Go use 15 year old Linux if you want to replace nostalgic memories with a good dose of how much it sucked" is the best part of his advice, it doesn't suck as badly on today's hardware as it did on that hardware that was brand new 15 years ago, and, we'll benefit from 15 years of dbus, pulseaudio etc experience and can pick and choose the good stuff and weed out the bad shit when we update to the best of todays and tomorrows standards. > in response to this critical article. > > http://gentooexperimental.org/~patrick/weblog/archives/2014-11.html > > Linus has been critical of the protocol design. At the time > the kdbus kernel module was proposed, He said that flaws in > in the protocol are to blame for poor performance rather > than kernel limitations. > > Also, some blame can be laid on the application developers. > It's one thing to use dbus for automounting an external > drive, other to use it hundreds or thousands of times per > second. However from their point of view, convenience > matters more, and processors are certain to get faster. > > Those who care enough about reducing the overhead will avoid > or limit their use of dbus. ..aye, "why", is by far the important question to get a simple answer on, rather than that usual avalanche on "how"... -- ..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt Karlsen ...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry... Scenarios always come in sets of three: best case, worst case, and just in case. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Refracta no-dbus experiment
Svante Signell wrote: > This is a really good initiative :) Let's get rid of that dbus bloat! I'm reading a little more about dbus, and find it was developed by Havoc Pennington, one of the important kernel contributors, IIRC. I'm not sure *I* need it, but he makes a good case for it and explains some apparent oddities here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8648437 in response to this critical article. http://gentooexperimental.org/~patrick/weblog/archives/2014-11.html Linus has been critical of the protocol design. At the time the kdbus kernel module was proposed, He said that flaws in in the protocol are to blame for poor performance rather than kernel limitations. Also, some blame can be laid on the application developers. It's one thing to use dbus for automounting an external drive, other to use it hundreds or thousands of times per second. However from their point of view, convenience matters more, and processors are certain to get faster. Those who care enough about reducing the overhead will avoid or limit their use of dbus. -- Joel Roth ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Refracta no-dbus experiment
On Fri, 2018-06-15 at 15:34 -0400, fsmithred wrote: > Refracta no-dbus build (experiment) > > The subject of running without dbus comes up from time to time in > various places. I decided to try it and see how far I could get. I > started with a debootstrap install of devuan ascii, pinned dbus to a > priority of -1, and proceeded to make the same changes as I do to > make Refracta liveisos. Normally, the Refracta isos use xfce, but > that's not possible without dbus. > > I was surprised to see how much did install without dbus. So I > thought I'd share it. This build uses openbox, lxpanel, lxterminal > and spacefm. Maybe someone will want to use it. Maybe it will inspire > someone else to do something better. Feeback is welcome. > http://distro.ibiblio.org/refracta/files/experimental/refracta9_nodbu > s_amd64-20180612_0156.iso This is a really good initiative :) Let's get rid of that dbus bloat! ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Refracta no-dbus experiment
El 15/06/18 a las 21:34, fsmithred escribió: Refracta no-dbus build (experiment) The subject of running without dbus comes up from time to time in various places. I decided to try it and see how far I could get. I started with a debootstrap install of devuan ascii, pinned dbus to a priority of -1, and proceeded to make the same changes as I do to make Refracta live isos. Normally, the Refracta isos use xfce, but that's not possible without dbus. I was surprised to see how much did install without dbus. So I thought I'd share it. This build uses openbox, lxpanel, lxterminal and spacefm. Maybe someone will want to use it. Maybe it will inspire someone else to do something better. Feeback is welcome. http://distro.ibiblio.org/refracta/files/experimental/refracta9_nodbus_amd64-20180612_0156.iso Thanks fsr, i'll give it a try tomorrow. Cheers, Aitor. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] Refracta no-dbus experiment
Refracta no-dbus build (experiment) The subject of running without dbus comes up from time to time in various places. I decided to try it and see how far I could get. I started with a debootstrap install of devuan ascii, pinned dbus to a priority of -1, and proceeded to make the same changes as I do to make Refracta live isos. Normally, the Refracta isos use xfce, but that's not possible without dbus. I was surprised to see how much did install without dbus. So I thought I'd share it. This build uses openbox, lxpanel, lxterminal and spacefm. Maybe someone will want to use it. Maybe it will inspire someone else to do something better. Feeback is welcome. http://distro.ibiblio.org/refracta/files/experimental/refracta9_nodbus_amd64-20180612_0156.iso sha256sum: 633634c3ac2beb06252b29bc78b3135f5f5ded473a72f42e5dc6c17d326d1f17 Login/Password: user/user root/root No display manager. Run 'startx' to get a desktop. # These can be installed without dbus and without libsystemd0 rsync bash-completion busybox kbd locales firmware-linux-free deborphan unzip lvm2 cryptsetup sshfs \ hwinfo alsa-utils moc pppoeconf pppconfig pppoe ntfs-3g dosfstools curl \ live-boot live-config live-boot-initramfs-tools live-config-sysvinit squashfs-tools xorriso pmount pv \ syslinux syslinux-common syslinux-utils isolinux xz-utils gdisk parted hexedit iftop smartmontools lm-sensors \ hdparm testdisk fdupes irssi iptraf ethtool scrot wipe mlocate wireless-tools wpasupplicant \ # get libdbus-1-3 here gddrescue screen feh hddtemp p7zip-full partimage pm-utils sysv-rc-conf tree wodim htop bzip2 whois \ lsb-release file setnet net-tools cifs-utils mdadm arp-scan \ dialog live-boot-doc live-config-doc refractainstaller-base refractasnapshot-base \ btrfs-tools btrfs-progs pciutils psmisc rename tcpd usbutils uuid-runtime dnsutils \ eject telnet usbutils util-linux-locales vrms mutt sudo # These were installed after allowing libsystemd0 xorg openbox spacefm lxterminal lxpanel obconf lxappearance lxappearance-obconf lxrandr \ linux-headers-4.9.0-6-amd64 build-essential xserver-xorg-legacy xserver-xephyr xterm aptitude \ icewm xarchiver leafpad links2 xpdf mpv yad ***grub-of-your-choice*** x11vnc xtightvncviewer grsync bleachbit meld asunder winff \ mplayer ffmpeg volumeicon-alsa tilda geeqie dkms transmission-gtk gftp \ xserver-xorg-video-intel xscreensaver xinput libnotify-bin hexchat \ abiword hardinfo gdmap gimp geany firejail firefox-esr deadbeef http://sourceforge.net/projects/deadbeef/files/debian/deadbeef-static_0.7.2-2_amd64.deb/download firemenu https://sourceforge.net/projects/refracta/files/Extras/firemenu-1.2.deb refracta2usb https://sourceforge.net/projects/refracta/files/tools/refracta2usb-2.3.6.deb These will NOT install. (and probably a lot more that I didn't try.) audacious xfburn wicd connman libpam-elogind synaptic gdebi fsmithred ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
