Re: [DNG] Should I, or should I not, make a Devuan VimOutliner package?

[Jaromil]

On Wed, 10 Jan 2018, Erik Christiansen wrote:

> If a foreign distro has forked your original, then in our distro it
> seems entirely reasonable for you as originator to restore the
> original.  If the foreign fork failed to identify itself as such,
> then it is not your problem or ours when substituting the original
> reclaims the original name. It is up to the fork to find a way to
> differentiate itself. If our community wants to keep both, then I
> propose that the debian package be renamed vimoutliner-debfork or
> similar.

I agree with all of the above. Plus its also part of Devuan's generic
mission to re-establish a constructive and respectful relationship
with upstream software developers, a long-standing problem Debian has.

ciao


___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] Should I, or should I not, make a Devuan VimOutliner package?

[Olaf Meeuwissen]

Hi,

Steve Litt writes:

> Hi all,
>
> BACKSTORY...
>
> I'm the *originator* of VimOutliner, an outline processor that uses the
> Vim engine. VimOutliner's top priority was authoring speed. That
> priority drove most VimOutliner keyboard commands to begin with a
> double comma (,,), which is both extremely easy to hit from typing home
> position, and very unlikely to happen within written text. I published
> VimOutliner 0.13 June 1 2001.
>
> Several other people used it, liked it, and improved it far beyond my
> capabilities. Several Linux distros acquired VimOutliner packages.
> Unfortunately, the Debian VimOutliner package manager insisted on using
> double backslash (//) instead of double comma (,,) as the first two

You mean double slash, right?  Double backslash would be \\ (and way too
Windows for my taste ;-).

On my Japanese keyboard these are right next to one another, two places
to the right of the comma.  Of the three, the comma would be easier to
type.

What's the Debian maintainer's rationale for changing the command
prefix?

> characters of commands. The double backslash is slower, and more
> important, it's a key that appears in different places on different
> keyboards. Use of the double backslash represents a degradation of
> VimOutliner's top priority: Authoring speed.
>
> I'm thinking of making the Devuan VimOutliner package use double comma.
> I'd take the Debian package and replace all appropriate double
> backslashes with double commas.

Just a thought, but would it be possible to make the command prefix
configurable upstream?  Then anyone could set it in a system-wide and/or
per user config file and everyone could use whatever is most convenient
for them.  Upstream can use ,, as the hard-coded default and the Debian
maintainer can simply plonk a system-wide configuration file in place.

Since everyone seems to be donating ;-) that was my two yen.
--
Olaf Meeuwissen, LPIC-2FSF Associate Member since 2004-01-27
 GnuPG key: F84A2DD9/B3C0 2F47 EA19 64F4 9F13  F43E B8A4 A88A F84A 2DD9
 Support Free Softwarehttps://my.fsf.org/donate
 Join the Free Software Foundation  https://my.fsf.org/join
___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] Should I, or should I not, make a Devuan VimOutliner package?

[Fungal-net]

UTC Time: January 10, 2018 12:21 AM

> From: dva...@internode.on.net
> To: dng@lists.dyne.org
>
> On 09.01.18 10:52, Steve Litt wrote:
>
>> I'm thinking of making the Devuan VimOutliner package use double comma.
>> I'd take the Debian package and replace all appropriate double
>> backslashes with double commas.
>
> Steve,
> If a foreign distro has forked your original, then in our distro it
> seems entirely reasonable for you as originator to restore the original.
> If the foreign fork failed to identify itself as such, then it is not
> your problem or ours when substituting the original reclaims the
> original name. It is up to the fork to find a way to differentiate
> itself. If our community wants to keep both, then I propose that the
> debian package be renamed vimoutliner-debfork or similar.
>
> That would seem to keep the ducks in a row, without the distasteful
> problem of a fork masquerading as the original. It would also avoid
> future list traffic asking "Why is the devuan VimOutliner package
> backslash-borked??"
>
> Erik

I am with Erik on this one.  The fork should be renamed the one of the 
"originator" should retain its "original" name.

FunGus___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] Should I, or should I not, make a Devuan VimOutliner package?

[Erik Christiansen]

On 09.01.18 10:52, Steve Litt wrote:
> I'm thinking of making the Devuan VimOutliner package use double comma.
> I'd take the Debian package and replace all appropriate double
> backslashes with double commas. 

Steve,
If a foreign distro has forked your original, then in our distro it
seems entirely reasonable for you as originator to restore the original.
If the foreign fork failed to identify itself as such, then it is not
your problem or ours when substituting the original reclaims the
original name. It is up to the fork to find a way to differentiate
itself. If our community wants to keep both, then I propose that the
debian package be renamed vimoutliner-debfork or similar.

That would seem to keep the ducks in a row, without the distasteful
problem of a fork masquerading as the original. It would also avoid
future list traffic asking "Why is the devuan VimOutliner package
backslash-borked??"

Erik
___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] Should I, or should I not, make a Devuan VimOutliner package?

[Peter Vachuska]

As someone who uses VO everyday for everything from journals, to to-do
lists, to outlining, I prefer (or am used to) the double comma leaders.
I was not aware that Debian changed it to //. (I *would* like to point
out that ,, is not equally easy on every keyboard layout. I use Dvorak
where ,, is upper-left rather than lower-right, but it is still easier
to find than //.) I would appreciate a Devuan VimOutliner package. Thanks.

-peter

09.01.2018, 09:52, "Steve Litt" :
> Hi all,
>
> BACKSTORY...
>
> I'm the *originator* of VimOutliner, an outline processor that uses the
> Vim engine. VimOutliner's top priority was authoring speed. That
> priority drove most VimOutliner keyboard commands to begin with a
> double comma (,,), which is both extremely easy to hit from typing home
> position, and very unlikely to happen within written text. I published
> VimOutliner 0.13 June 1 2001.
>
> Several other people used it, liked it, and improved it far beyond my
> capabilities. Several Linux distros acquired VimOutliner packages.
> Unfortunately, the Debian VimOutliner package manager insisted on using
> double backslash (//) instead of double comma (,,) as the first two
> characters of commands. The double backslash is slower, and more
> important, it's a key that appears in different places on different
> keyboards. Use of the double backslash represents a degradation of
> VimOutliner's top priority: Authoring speed.
>
> I'm thinking of making the Devuan VimOutliner package use double comma.
> I'd take the Debian package and replace all appropriate double
> backslashes with double commas.
>
> Please understand, there is no SystemD dependency in the current Debian
> VimOutliner package. It doesn't in any way violate any Devuan policy.
> It simply uses the wrong string for the purposes of outlining.
>
> As mentioned, I'm the originator of VimOutliner, and as such I set the
> priorities, and the top priority has consistently been authoring speed.
> I can either modify the "standard" VimOutliner for my own use, or I can
> make a new, double comma equipped package for Devuan. Anyone have an
> opinion on this?
>
> SteveT
>
> Steve Litt
> December 2017 featured book: Thriving in Tough Times
> http://www.troubleshooters.com/thrive
> ___
> Dng mailing list
> Dng@lists.dyne.org
> https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] Should I, or should I not, make a Devuan VimOutliner package?

[Hendrik Boom]

On Tue, Jan 09, 2018 at 05:10:35PM +0100, Antony Stone wrote:
> On Tuesday 09 January 2018 at 16:52:35, Steve Litt wrote:
> 
> > Hi all,
> > 
> > BACKSTORY...
> > 
> > I'm the *originator* of VimOutliner, an outline processor that uses the
> > Vim engine. VimOutliner's top priority was authoring speed. That
> > priority drove most VimOutliner keyboard commands to begin with a
> > double comma (,,), which is both extremely easy to hit from typing home
> > position, and very unlikely to happen within written text. I published
> > VimOutliner 0.13 June 1 2001.
> > 
> > Several other people used it, liked it, and improved it far beyond my
> > capabilities. Several Linux distros acquired VimOutliner packages.
> > Unfortunately, the Debian VimOutliner package manager insisted on using
> > double backslash (//) instead of double comma (,,) as the first two
> > characters of commands. The double backslash is slower, and more
> > important, it's a key that appears in different places on different
> > keyboards. Use of the double backslash represents a degradation of
> > VimOutliner's top priority: Authoring speed.
> > 
> > I'm thinking of making the Devuan VimOutliner package use double comma.
> > I'd take the Debian package and replace all appropriate double
> > backslashes with double commas.
> > 
> > Please understand, there is no SystemD dependency in the current Debian
> > VimOutliner package. It doesn't in any way violate any Devuan policy.
> > It simply uses the wrong string for the purposes of outlining.
> > 
> > As mentioned, I'm the originator of VimOutliner, and as such I set the
> > priorities, and the top priority has consistently been authoring speed.
> > I can either modify the "standard" VimOutliner for my own use, or I can
> > make a new, double comma equipped package for Devuan. Anyone have an
> > opinion on this?
> 
> It sounds like you have good justification for the double-comma choice, and 
> of 
> course as originator you can release the application however you like 
> (although under an Open Source licence, so can anyone else modify it however 
> they like).
> 
> My suggestion, rather than modifying the Debian package and keeping the name 
> the same, thereby leading to potential confusion between Debian and Devuan 
> systems, would be to do the modification but adjust the package name (maybe 
> add 
> "comma"? or "Litt"?) so that both packages remain available in Devuan (and 
> there aren't unexpected consequences for Debian upgraders).

or vimoutliner-authentic?

-- hendrik
___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] Should I, or should I not, make a Devuan VimOutliner package?

[Antony Stone]

On Tuesday 09 January 2018 at 16:52:35, Steve Litt wrote:

> Hi all,
> 
> BACKSTORY...
> 
> I'm the *originator* of VimOutliner, an outline processor that uses the
> Vim engine. VimOutliner's top priority was authoring speed. That
> priority drove most VimOutliner keyboard commands to begin with a
> double comma (,,), which is both extremely easy to hit from typing home
> position, and very unlikely to happen within written text. I published
> VimOutliner 0.13 June 1 2001.
> 
> Several other people used it, liked it, and improved it far beyond my
> capabilities. Several Linux distros acquired VimOutliner packages.
> Unfortunately, the Debian VimOutliner package manager insisted on using
> double backslash (//) instead of double comma (,,) as the first two
> characters of commands. The double backslash is slower, and more
> important, it's a key that appears in different places on different
> keyboards. Use of the double backslash represents a degradation of
> VimOutliner's top priority: Authoring speed.
> 
> I'm thinking of making the Devuan VimOutliner package use double comma.
> I'd take the Debian package and replace all appropriate double
> backslashes with double commas.
> 
> Please understand, there is no SystemD dependency in the current Debian
> VimOutliner package. It doesn't in any way violate any Devuan policy.
> It simply uses the wrong string for the purposes of outlining.
> 
> As mentioned, I'm the originator of VimOutliner, and as such I set the
> priorities, and the top priority has consistently been authoring speed.
> I can either modify the "standard" VimOutliner for my own use, or I can
> make a new, double comma equipped package for Devuan. Anyone have an
> opinion on this?

It sounds like you have good justification for the double-comma choice, and of 
course as originator you can release the application however you like 
(although under an Open Source licence, so can anyone else modify it however 
they like).

My suggestion, rather than modifying the Debian package and keeping the name 
the same, thereby leading to potential confusion between Debian and Devuan 
systems, would be to do the modification but adjust the package name (maybe add 
"comma"? or "Litt"?) so that both packages remain available in Devuan (and 
there aren't unexpected consequences for Debian upgraders).

Since a Devuan package is a Debian package anyway, you can also make this re-
packaged version available for private download for Debian users who prefer 
your command approach.

Anyway, my 2c (although €c, not $c),


Antony.

-- 
There's a good theatrical performance about puns on in the West End.  It's a 
play on words.

   Please reply to the list;
 please *don't* CC me.
___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

[DNG] Should I, or should I not, make a Devuan VimOutliner package?

[Steve Litt]

Hi all,

BACKSTORY...

I'm the *originator* of VimOutliner, an outline processor that uses the
Vim engine. VimOutliner's top priority was authoring speed. That
priority drove most VimOutliner keyboard commands to begin with a
double comma (,,), which is both extremely easy to hit from typing home
position, and very unlikely to happen within written text. I published
VimOutliner 0.13 June 1 2001. 

Several other people used it, liked it, and improved it far beyond my
capabilities. Several Linux distros acquired VimOutliner packages.
Unfortunately, the Debian VimOutliner package manager insisted on using
double backslash (//) instead of double comma (,,) as the first two
characters of commands. The double backslash is slower, and more
important, it's a key that appears in different places on different
keyboards. Use of the double backslash represents a degradation of
VimOutliner's top priority: Authoring speed. 

I'm thinking of making the Devuan VimOutliner package use double comma.
I'd take the Debian package and replace all appropriate double
backslashes with double commas. 

Please understand, there is no SystemD dependency in the current Debian
VimOutliner package. It doesn't in any way violate any Devuan policy.
It simply uses the wrong string for the purposes of outlining.

As mentioned, I'm the originator of VimOutliner, and as such I set the
priorities, and the top priority has consistently been authoring speed.
I can either modify the "standard" VimOutliner for my own use, or I can
make a new, double comma equipped package for Devuan. Anyone have an
opinion on this?

SteveT

Steve Litt 
December 2017 featured book: Thriving in Tough Times
http://www.troubleshooters.com/thrive
___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng