Re: [DNG] network-manager depends on libpam-systemd (Daniel Reurich)

[Didier Kryn]

Le 04/05/2016 10:30, Joel Roth a écrit :

How do you like ceni? There isn't much detail in the man
page. How does it deal with suspend? (With wicd-gtk I have
to reconnect after wake-up.)

I see there is a debian package available here:


I have ceni installed on my Debian-wheezy. I just gave it a try and 
now remember I did it and reported to the list already.


I just removed the SSID I was connected on from my wpa config, 
brought down then up wlan0 and launched ceni. It offers me two 
possibilities: Either scan and manage a connection to some available 
SSID, or configure wpa_supplicant for roaming, which means mess up with 
my already made config. If I select the last case, I am warned that, 
after that, I can use wpa_gui to enter new wifi stations. Therefore Ceni 
doesn't bring any value at all - at least to me, since I'm able to read 
a howto and edit a text file.


Didier

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Re: [DNG] network-manager depends on libpam-systemd (Daniel Reurich)

[emninger]

It's a bit late, but in wicd you can use usb adapters (i did with a
ralink based one) or share wifi via ethernet. It's tricky, yes, but
with the use of scripts it can be done. At the time, i had a big help
from someone in the (german) ubuntu user forums.

Also: Ceni is an excellent ncurses based tool to administrate network
connections (it's based on dhcpd and wpa_supplicant), more basic then
networkmanager and wicd ((who both, it think, there are not just
overlays but they use their own way to deal with the hardware; in fact
iirc they are not compatible with wpa_supplicant running (??) ).

At least, may be one should have a look at tinycore linux, how they
deal with the network connections (i have it running on a small old
netbook and it is really smart and easy, although it does not start
automatically on boot the wifi connection).

May be someone more expert knows. In any case, with some tweaking, it
should be possible to offer good viable alternative to network-manager.

Cheers!

Am Mon, 02 May 2016 04:19:07 + schrieb
dng-requ...@lists.dyne.org:

> Message: 2
> Date: Mon, 2 May 2016 12:49:44 +1200
> From: Daniel Reurich <dan...@centurion.net.nz>
> To: "dng@lists.dyne.org" <dng@lists.dyne.org>
> Subject: Re: [DNG] network-manager depends on libpam-systemd
> Message-ID: <5726a428.50...@centurion.net.nz>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> 
> On 02/05/16 12:01, Hendrik Boom wrote:
> > On Sun, May 01, 2016 at 07:56:09PM -0400, Hendrik Boom wrote:  
> >> On Sun, May 01, 2016 at 12:40:34PM -0500, Nate Bargmann wrote:  
> >>> Hi All.
> >>>
> >>> I've completed the upgrade to Devuan Jessie Beta over Debian
> >>> Jessie on both my laptop and desktop.  Nice work!
> >>>
> >>> I use Network Manager on my laptop.  It is configured for the
> >>> networks I attach to most frequently and allows a seamless
> >>> connection when tethering to my Android phone via USB.  So shoot
> >>> me!  
> >>
> >> I use wicd instead of Network Manager, in devan jessie.  I don't
> >> know if it will talk to your phone over USB, but might it be worth
> >> a try?  
> > 
> > As far as I know, all these network managers and the like are front 
> > ends to the same underlying low-level system components.  You may
> > find that they share the same connection data base.
> >   
> wicd only deals specifically with the wifi/ethernet case.  There is no
> capability or plugins I've found for wicd to provide management for
> vpn connectivity, bluetooth or usb-serial connectors.
> 
> I could be wrong on that of course, but I didn't find a solution for
> my vpn needs with wicd when I looked.
> 
> Regards,
>   
> Daniel

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Re: [DNG] network-manager depends on libpam-systemd

[Steve Litt]

On Tue, 3 May 2016 11:53:33 +0200
Didier Kryn  wrote:


>  Yes, I know. All these front-ends use wpa_supplicant in their 
> kitchen. I just wonder why they find it more clever to re-do on their 
> own what wpa_supplicant can do alone.

I think I can answer that.

Wpa_supplicant has three front ends that I know of: wpa_cli, wpa_gui,
and wpa_passphrase. Wpa_passphrase' capability is limited to taking an
SSID and password and making something that can be appended
to /etc/wpa_supplicant/wpa_supplicant.conf in order to interact with
that SSID.

Wpa_gui, and *especially* wpa_cli, are structured so the human must
give information in wpa_supplicant API terms, rather than in human
terms. Wpa_gui does one of the worst jobs of human engineering of any
software I've seen.

The ideal interface would be an nCurses thing that is structured pretty
much like Network Manager. Network Manager got the human engineering
almost completely right. Too bad about all the dbus and X requirements.

SteveT

Steve Litt 
April 2016 featured book: Rapid Learning for the 21st Century
http://www.troubleshooters.com/rl21
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Re: [DNG] network-manager depends on libpam-systemd

[Didier Kryn]

Le 03/05/2016 11:35, Daniel Reurich a écrit :

On 03/05/16 20:56, Didier Kryn wrote:

>Le 02/05/2016 03:41, Nate Bargmann a écrit :

>>I know, I would probably be better off doing everything it does by
>>hand.  That said there is something very nice about opening the lid and
>>by the time I enter my password to unlock Xscreensaver, NM has the
>>network configured on my AP.

>
> FYI, this functionality is achieved by a proper configuration of
>wpa_supplicant.
>
> No need for an additional layer encumbered with so many dependencies.
>

You realise that NM uses wpa-supplicant right?  It just doesn't do it
via the standard debian config files.  We can fix the backend to do that
- but for now making it build to run without systemd is what we need.

:D


Yes, I know. All these front-ends use wpa_supplicant in their 
kitchen. I just wonder why they find it more clever to re-do on their 
own what wpa_supplicant can do alone.


However, IIUC, NM is also taking care of some usb connections, 
which is out of the scope of wpa_supplicant.


Didier

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Re: [DNG] network-manager depends on libpam-systemd

[Daniel Reurich]

On 03/05/16 20:56, Didier Kryn wrote:
> Le 02/05/2016 03:41, Nate Bargmann a écrit :
>> I know, I would probably be better off doing everything it does by
>> hand.  That said there is something very nice about opening the lid and
>> by the time I enter my password to unlock Xscreensaver, NM has the
>> network configured on my AP.
> 
> FYI, this functionality is achieved by a proper configuration of
> wpa_supplicant.
> 
> No need for an additional layer encumbered with so many dependencies.
> 
You realise that NM uses wpa-supplicant right?  It just doesn't do it
via the standard debian config files.  We can fix the backend to do that
- but for now making it build to run without systemd is what we need.

:D



-- 
Daniel Reurich
Centurion Computer Technology (2005) Ltd.
021 797 722



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Re: [DNG] network-manager depends on libpam-systemd

[Didier Kryn]

Le 02/05/2016 03:41, Nate Bargmann a écrit :

I know, I would probably be better off doing everything it does by
hand.  That said there is something very nice about opening the lid and
by the time I enter my password to unlock Xscreensaver, NM has the
network configured on my AP.


FYI, this functionality is achieved by a proper configuration of 
wpa_supplicant.


No need for an additional layer encumbered with so many dependencies.

Didier

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Re: [DNG] network-manager depends on libpam-systemd

[Daniel Reurich]

On 02/05/16 17:41, Dragan FOSS wrote:
> On 05/01/2016 10:20 PM, Daniel Reurich wrote:
>> I need this before migrating my wheezy
>> workstation to Devuan Jessie.  So it is urgently needed.
> 
> 
> Network manager without systemd dependencies :)
> http://mirror.org.rs/trios/mia/pool/main/n/
> 
But where are the sources for that??  We'd need to be able to build it
from source...

So close ...

Regards,
Daniel




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Re: [DNG] network-manager depends on libpam-systemd

[Dragan FOSS]

On 05/01/2016 10:20 PM, Daniel Reurich wrote:

I need this before migrating my wheezy
workstation to Devuan Jessie.  So it is urgently needed.



Network manager without systemd dependencies :)
http://mirror.org.rs/trios/mia/pool/main/n/

Cheers,
Dragan
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Re: [DNG] network-manager depends on libpam-systemd

[Nate Bargmann]

BTW, I've already read the other followups and you have a legitimate
question, Hendrik.  Here is my 2 cents and why I'm using NM.

* On 2016 01 May 18:58 -0500, Hendrik Boom wrote:

> I use wicd instead of Network Manager, in devan jessie.  I don't know 
> if it will talk to your phone over USB, but might it be worth a try?

I used to be a big fan of WiCD.  Then it had times when it would refuse
to connect to one of my APs and would require a second try.  I used to
disparage NM every chance I got (the Linux Today archives will likely
have some rants), but it became fixed and a useful tool.  So useful that
using my laptop would be much less handy without it these days.

I know, I would probably be better off doing everything it does by
hand.  That said there is something very nice about opening the lid and
by the time I enter my password to unlock Xscreensaver, NM has the
network configured on my AP.  I don't have an issue with a program that
does what it is supposed to do reliably and with repeat-ability.  For my
use case NM meets that criteria.  Others have matured NM and the version
in Jessie works very well *for me*.

Sorry for the tangential remarks.

I hope it's possible for libpam to be packaged without the systemd
dependency.

- Nate

-- 

"The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all
possible worlds.  The pessimist fears this is true."

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Re: [DNG] network-manager depends on libpam-systemd

[Hendrik Boom]

On Mon, May 02, 2016 at 12:49:44PM +1200, Daniel Reurich wrote:
> On 02/05/16 12:01, Hendrik Boom wrote:
> > On Sun, May 01, 2016 at 07:56:09PM -0400, Hendrik Boom wrote:
> >> On Sun, May 01, 2016 at 12:40:34PM -0500, Nate Bargmann wrote:
> >>> Hi All.
> >>>
> >>> I've completed the upgrade to Devuan Jessie Beta over Debian Jessie on
> >>> both my laptop and desktop.  Nice work!
> >>>
> >>> I use Network Manager on my laptop.  It is configured for the networks I
> >>> attach to most frequently and allows a seamless connection when
> >>> tethering to my Android phone via USB.  So shoot me!
> >>
> >> I use wicd instead of Network Manager, in devan jessie.  I don't know 
> >> if it will talk to your phone over USB, but might it be worth a try?
> > 
> > As far as I know, all these network managers and the like are front 
> > ends to the same underlying low-level system components.  You may find 
> > that they share the same connection data base.
> > 
> wicd only deals specifically with the wifi/ethernet case.  There is no
> capability or plugins I've found for wicd to provide management for vpn
> connectivity, bluetooth or usb-serial connectors.
> 
> I could be wrong on that of course, but I didn't find a solution for my
> vpn needs with wicd when I looked.

I see.  Sorry I wasn't more helpful

-- hendrik
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Re: [DNG] network-manager depends on libpam-systemd

[Daniel Reurich]

On 02/05/16 12:01, Hendrik Boom wrote:
> On Sun, May 01, 2016 at 07:56:09PM -0400, Hendrik Boom wrote:
>> On Sun, May 01, 2016 at 12:40:34PM -0500, Nate Bargmann wrote:
>>> Hi All.
>>>
>>> I've completed the upgrade to Devuan Jessie Beta over Debian Jessie on
>>> both my laptop and desktop.  Nice work!
>>>
>>> I use Network Manager on my laptop.  It is configured for the networks I
>>> attach to most frequently and allows a seamless connection when
>>> tethering to my Android phone via USB.  So shoot me!
>>
>> I use wicd instead of Network Manager, in devan jessie.  I don't know 
>> if it will talk to your phone over USB, but might it be worth a try?
> 
> As far as I know, all these network managers and the like are front 
> ends to the same underlying low-level system components.  You may find 
> that they share the same connection data base.
> 
wicd only deals specifically with the wifi/ethernet case.  There is no
capability or plugins I've found for wicd to provide management for vpn
connectivity, bluetooth or usb-serial connectors.

I could be wrong on that of course, but I didn't find a solution for my
vpn needs with wicd when I looked.

Regards,

Daniel
-- 
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021 797 722



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Re: [DNG] network-manager depends on libpam-systemd

[Hendrik Boom]

On Sun, May 01, 2016 at 07:56:09PM -0400, Hendrik Boom wrote:
> On Sun, May 01, 2016 at 12:40:34PM -0500, Nate Bargmann wrote:
> > Hi All.
> > 
> > I've completed the upgrade to Devuan Jessie Beta over Debian Jessie on
> > both my laptop and desktop.  Nice work!
> > 
> > I use Network Manager on my laptop.  It is configured for the networks I
> > attach to most frequently and allows a seamless connection when
> > tethering to my Android phone via USB.  So shoot me!
> 
> I use wicd instead of Network Manager, in devan jessie.  I don't know 
> if it will talk to your phone over USB, but might it be worth a try?

As far as I know, all these network managers and the like are front 
ends to the same underlying low-level system components.  You may find 
that they share the same connection data base.

-- hendrik

> 
> Or have you already tried it?
> 
> -- hendrik
> 
> > 
> > At this point the network-manager package depends on the libpam-systemd
> > package which, in turn, depends on the systemd package.  Keep in mind
> > that this laptop was updated from a current Debian Jessie system, if
> > that is important.  Is this a WIP?  If so, I'll be patient.
> > 
> > - Nate
> > 
> > -- 
> > 
> > "The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all
> > possible worlds.  The pessimist fears this is true."
> > 
> > Ham radio, Linux, bikes, and more: http://www.n0nb.us
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Re: [DNG] network-manager depends on libpam-systemd

[Hendrik Boom]

On Sun, May 01, 2016 at 12:40:34PM -0500, Nate Bargmann wrote:
> Hi All.
> 
> I've completed the upgrade to Devuan Jessie Beta over Debian Jessie on
> both my laptop and desktop.  Nice work!
> 
> I use Network Manager on my laptop.  It is configured for the networks I
> attach to most frequently and allows a seamless connection when
> tethering to my Android phone via USB.  So shoot me!

I use wicd instead of Network Manager, in devan jessie.  I don't know 
if it will talk to your phone over USB, but might it be worth a try?

Or have you already tried it?

-- hendrik

> 
> At this point the network-manager package depends on the libpam-systemd
> package which, in turn, depends on the systemd package.  Keep in mind
> that this laptop was updated from a current Debian Jessie system, if
> that is important.  Is this a WIP?  If so, I'll be patient.
> 
> - Nate
> 
> -- 
> 
> "The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all
> possible worlds.  The pessimist fears this is true."
> 
> Ham radio, Linux, bikes, and more: http://www.n0nb.us
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Re: [DNG] network-manager depends on libpam-systemd

[Nate Bargmann]

* On 2016 01 May 15:23 -0500, Daniel Reurich wrote:

> Yes it is on my personal todo list.  It is the only way to have nicely
> integrated vpn connection also.  I need this before migrating my wheezy
> workstation to Devuan Jessie.  So it is urgently needed.

Do let me know how I may help, Daniel.

- Nate

-- 

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Re: [DNG] network-manager depends on libpam-systemd

[Daniel Reurich]

On 02/05/16 05:40, Nate Bargmann wrote:
> Hi All.
> 
> I've completed the upgrade to Devuan Jessie Beta over Debian Jessie on
> both my laptop and desktop.  Nice work!
> 
> I use Network Manager on my laptop.  It is configured for the networks I
> attach to most frequently and allows a seamless connection when
> tethering to my Android phone via USB.  So shoot me!
> 
> At this point the network-manager package depends on the libpam-systemd
> package which, in turn, depends on the systemd package.  Keep in mind
> that this laptop was updated from a current Debian Jessie system, if
> that is important.  Is this a WIP?  If so, I'll be patient.
> 
> - Nate
> 
Yes it is on my personal todo list.  It is the only way to have nicely
integrated vpn connection also.  I need this before migrating my wheezy
workstation to Devuan Jessie.  So it is urgently needed.



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Centurion Computer Technology (2005) Ltd.
021 797 722




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[DNG] network-manager depends on libpam-systemd

[Nate Bargmann]

Hi All.

I've completed the upgrade to Devuan Jessie Beta over Debian Jessie on
both my laptop and desktop.  Nice work!

I use Network Manager on my laptop.  It is configured for the networks I
attach to most frequently and allows a seamless connection when
tethering to my Android phone via USB.  So shoot me!

At this point the network-manager package depends on the libpam-systemd
package which, in turn, depends on the systemd package.  Keep in mind
that this laptop was updated from a current Debian Jessie system, if
that is important.  Is this a WIP?  If so, I'll be patient.

- Nate

-- 

"The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all
possible worlds.  The pessimist fears this is true."

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