Re: [DNG] resolved

[Rainer Weikusat]

dev  writes:
>>> On Wed, 08 Jun 2016, Edward Bartolo wrote:
>>> fortunately they have a link to offer to non-subscribers, I'm not sure
>>> it will expire, however see here
>>> https://lwn.net/SubscriberLink/690151/721a817ed6377ec3/
>
>
> FTFA:
> "Lennart Poettering sees process persistence as a security issue."

'$person claims X was true' is not the same as '$person thinks X is
true'.

[...]

> Systemd isn't going to stop until it resemebles nothing like a classic
> *nix system.

That's a very bad way of framing this because it immediately lands you
in "stupid old farts resistant too ..."/ "This is 40 years old
technology!" territory. There are (as far as I know) two ways to create
a background process on UNIX(*), namely

- a program may ignore or handle SIGHUP hence, it won't be
  terminated by the SIGHUP which is automatically sent to all
  members of a session upon logout

- a program can use a fork to ensure that it's not a process
  group leader followed by setsid to make it run in its own
  session, hence, it won't get SIGHUP when the login session is
  destroyed

Neither of both is a privileged operation, hence, any user can create
background processes using whatever system resources said user is
allowed to use (eg, the number of processes or the cpu time could be
restricted).

Mr Poettering claims to believe users should need explicit permission
from 'the system administration' before they're allowed to create
background processes. I haven't seen a reason for this, though, and it's
somewhat unclear what such a reason could be. Eg, assuming I'm allowed
to compile a kernel on system ... now, why shouldn't I be allowed to
instruct the system to compile the same kernel while I'm asleep at 3am
in the morning provided this doesn't exceed system resources usually
available to me?

This is a useful feature which has been available on
many different kinds of systems in a certain way for a long time and a
lot of existing software relies on it. Hence, any change of behaviour
should provide a striking, practical advantage in order to justify the
cost. And abstract ideas of "theoretical OS purity" of isolated people
or groups of people are not a striking, practical advantage.



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Re: [DNG] resolved

[dev]

On Wed, 08 Jun 2016, Edward Bartolo wrote:
fortunately they have a link to offer to non-subscribers, I'm not sure
it will expire, however see here
https://lwn.net/SubscriberLink/690151/721a817ed6377ec3/



FTFA:
"Lennart Poettering sees process persistence as a security issue."

But then, so is/are:
* plugging in an ethernet cable.
* allowing users to login
* add a user account
* a running process
* elevated privileges
* buffer overflows
 this list goes on and on.

"because security" is just a broad brush for painting thick layer of 
B.S. A software exploit for a logged in user is just as dangerous as a 
running process after logout and I fail to see the point of what seems

like another knee-slap decision by the systemd cabal.

Systemd isn't going to stop until it resemebles nothing like a classic 
*nix system. Perhaps that's the point.





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Re: [DNG] resolved

[Rainer Weikusat]

Jaromil  writes:
> On Wed, 08 Jun 2016, Edward Bartolo wrote:
>> In short, I am afraid making assumptions the tempest will settle
>> down, is a mistake.
>
> the tempest is raging out there. today there is a fine piece by Corbet
> resuming the state of affairs on LWN, which I got as a subscriber (and
> I do recommend subscribing to LWN, is the best source of news out
> there)
>
> fortunately they have a link to offer to non-subscribers, I'm not sure
> it will expire, however see here
> https://lwn.net/SubscriberLink/690151/721a817ed6377ec3/

(loaded) Summary: $person thinks user shouldn't be allowed to run
background jobs. Because $person thinks so, taking this capability away
equals technical progress (likewise, people really shouldn't be allowed
to use flushing toilets because that's a Waste(!!) of water, hence,
forcing them to use pit latrines is technical progress because it's a
change from the common pattern). It's up to distributions to decide if
their users should be allowed to run background jobs, though, and GNOME
users won't be affected, anyway, because they never log out. Plus some
more blabla of the usual kind, "stupid old farts resistant to change"
etc.

I've occasionally been thinking about getting a LWN subscription ever
since it became subscription-only, the reason this never happened is
because it is (or used to be) restricted to credit card owners and
registered PayPal users. I won't be considering this any more.

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Re: [DNG] resolved

[Dan Purgert]

Edward Bartolo wrote:
> [snip]
> 
> Reading this mail thread gives the message that eventually software
> freedom will win even in the case of init freedom. However, searching
> online for various topics often results in howtos that assume one is
> running systemd. I may be worrying a bit too much, but having howtos
> assuming systemd is installed will eventually encourage more users to
> use systemd especially if they are beginners.
> [snip]

Well, the main trouble is that the syntax for a howto is probably given
to google/ddg as " "; and well, given that "beginners"
will likely gravitate towards Mint and Ubuntu (among others, but those
seem to be the "beginner Linuxes of choice"), the only howtos that will
be of any use (assuming 16.04 or Mint 18) will be systemd-related.

If we want to get the  beginners, then perhaps something to
look at (eventually) is what do those distros do to cultivate their
"newbie-friendly" atmosphere. Or perhaps a 'child' distro (similar to
the Debian -> Ubuntu -> Mint hierarchy).

Perhaps any of us who are educators should talk up Devuan -- hell,
hearing one of my favorite professors talk about RedHat was what got me
STARTED in linux in the first place (although, with Fedora-Core 2).
Unfortunately, I couldn't really "get into" Linux at the time, and it
had been an on-and-off OS for many years (and now I'm kicking myself for
time lost because I stuck with "the familiar" of Windows).

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Re: [DNG] resolved

[Rob van der Putten]

Hi there


Klaus Hartnegg wrote:


All programmers please read this, and treat it as a list of things not to do.

https://lists.dns-oarc.net/pipermail/dns-operations/2016-June/014964.html

Systemd manages to shoot itself in the foot, and in the elbow, and trigger a 
timebomb, all with one single bullet.


AFAIK one can run systemd without resolvd.
Or did I miss something?

BTW, I run a Debian Jessie server without systemd and it works just fine.
I still have to upgrade my GUI box.


Regards,
Rob

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Re: [DNG] resolved

[Jaromil]

On Wed, 08 Jun 2016, Edward Bartolo wrote:

> In short, I am afraid making assumptions the tempest will settle
> down, is a mistake.

the tempest is raging out there. today there is a fine piece by Corbet
resuming the state of affairs on LWN, which I got as a subscriber (and
I do recommend subscribing to LWN, is the best source of news out
there)

fortunately they have a link to offer to non-subscribers, I'm not sure
it will expire, however see here
https://lwn.net/SubscriberLink/690151/721a817ed6377ec3/

perhaps we shall prepare more warm meals and be ready to welcome more
people from the exodus, or... maybe create a strong alliance and take
back Debian's castle? :^)

just joking. I just wish more Debian developers would join us and at
least cooperate with some of the infrastructure we still rely on. At
this point is obvious: tt is useful to them too, that Devuan survives.

ciao


-- 
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Re: [DNG] resolved

[Edward Bartolo]

Hi,

Reading this mail thread gives the message that eventually software
freedom will win even in the case of init freedom. However, searching
online for various topics often results in howtos that assume one is
running systemd. I may be worrying a bit too much, but having howtos
assuming systemd is installed will eventually encourage more users to
use systemd especially if they are beginners.

Assuming software freedom will settle itself automatically in the case
of init freedom is like assuming "an invisible hand" can control
prices from rising. Everyone knows what drives private investment is
financial gain that prices usually go up instead of going down except
for poor products that are almost useless to buy.

Something must be done to either upgrade the license of to set up an
organisation like freedesktop.org that works for software freedom as
we Devuanites understand it.

In short, I am afraid making assumptions the tempest will settle down,
is a mistake.

Edward

On 08/06/2016, Peter Olson  wrote:
>> On June 7, 2016 at 5:28 PM KatolaZ  wrote:
>
>  [...]
>
>> And my point is that we already have a powerful weapon to use against
>> any power that wants to give a too-tight-hug to the free software
>> community, and that weapon is called *copyleft* (not RMS, which would
>> be quite a cumbersome weapon to wield anyway, given the mass involved
>> :)).
>
> I think my mass might be greater than RMS's, but I wouldn't qualify as a
> weapon.
>
> RMS sets a standard of discourse about software freedom.
>
> Copyleft is one instance of this, but he continues to illustrate issues that
> we might like to be concerned about.
>
> Peter Olson
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Re: [DNG] resolved

[Peter Olson]

> On June 7, 2016 at 5:28 PM KatolaZ  wrote:

 [...]

> And my point is that we already have a powerful weapon to use against
> any power that wants to give a too-tight-hug to the free software
> community, and that weapon is called *copyleft* (not RMS, which would
> be quite a cumbersome weapon to wield anyway, given the mass involved
> :)).

I think my mass might be greater than RMS's, but I wouldn't qualify as a weapon.

RMS sets a standard of discourse about software freedom.

Copyleft is one instance of this, but he continues to illustrate issues that we 
might like to be concerned about.

Peter Olson
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Re: [DNG] resolved

[Arnt Karlsen]

On Wed, 8 Jun 2016 11:28:32 +0900, Simon wrote in message 
<575782d0.5080...@gikaku.com>:

> My biggest gripe with systemd: How many man hours have been wasted
> and will be wasted. There is an lack of wisdom in that project.

..hugely.

..I only partially agree, though, if the idea behind it is catch the 
next Edward Snowdons, or if Edward Snowdon is the man behind it, I 
would see a lot of political and military etc Machiavellian wisdom
behind it, but never any technological etc visdom.  It's like nukes,
it's considered wise to have your own if the enemy has his aimed at
you, either way, you do not wanna have a cranky cranked up nuke in 
your laptop.

-- 
..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt Karlsen
...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry...
  Scenarios always come in sets of three: 
  best case, worst case, and just in case.
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Re: [DNG] resolved

[Simon Walter]

On 06/07/2016 06:59 PM, Simon Hobson wrote:

Steve Litt  wrote:


I'm all for corporations making money. I get paid, why shouldn't they?

Indeed. I find it "interesting" to hear some people suggesting they shouldn't 
have to pay for anything - and think that if anyone suggested they shouldn't get paid for 
whatever they do/produce then they might have a different view !
Also bear in mind that a lot of what is "free" is only free and there because "someone 
else" actually paid for it - just look at how many of the major projects are led/staffed by people 
employed by various technology companies to produce the "free" stuff.


Hold on. I must interject.

Not all programmers are equal. Some are so skilled that to write up a 
piece of software and maintain it just for themselves, is not as 
difficult as it is for someone like me. If a hobbyist or professional 
cannot get the parts s/he needs because the information on the package 
is incorrect in some way, then some resort to DIY. It is this group of 
DIY hobbyists and professionals and their vision gave us open source 
software.


Others in other replies have mentioned some of the pioneers. I respect 
and admire them and their fortitude.


It doesn't much to do with producing something directly for sale. The 
motivation to produce superior parts might be to enable one to do ones 
job better, but those parts were not originally for sale. Redhat is 
taking those and selling support for them. Great. Nice. Good. But then 
when they start the systemd BS, all the comments about them having 
greedy ulterior motives start to make sense. The freeloaders will never 
care. After all, they are comfortable with the theft of software.




Eg, while we may deride RH (especially over SystemD), it's true that their paying 
customers do indirectly pay for some of the stuff we use for "free". I 
personally know someone employed by them to work on virtualisation - IIRC he works on 
improvements to things like Qemu.


Yes. My brother works for RH and feeds his children with that money. I 
still don't care for RH. I never have and never will. RPM hell may have 
been intentional. Just like MS doesn't fix horrible bugs because they 
make good money off of support.


Knowing someone in an organization doesn't make it a good organization.



Of course, we know that a lot of people work on this in their own time - but we 
assume that they are still either employed, or getting a pension, or getting 
some other form of support in order to pay the bills, keep a roof over their 
head, and put food on the table.


My first paragraph applies. Only freeloaders are asking for a handout 
and those people do not matter to us anyway. Money is no justification 
for nefarious action.


My biggest gripe with systemd: How many man hours have been wasted and 
will be wasted. There is an lack of wisdom in that project.


Simon
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Re: [DNG] resolved

[KatolaZ]

On Tue, Jun 07, 2016 at 05:31:18PM +0100, Simon Hobson wrote:
> KatolaZ  wrote:
> 
> > Despite being originally intended as a "guerrilla weapon" (and RMS and
> > the others were very careful at designing it), copyleft is indeed the
> > only way to keep free software free, forever.
> 
> Indeed.
> I've heard a few descriptions of RMS - most of them uncomplimentary. Having 
> met him, I can see why many people dislike him - he does come across very 
> much as the stereotypical geek with no social skills (mind you, me writing 
> that does involve a certain amount of "pot, kettle, black" - fill in the rest 
> !)
> I can understand his POV, though I'm very much in the pragmatism camp and use 
> a mix of free and closed software. But, I respect his position - and I 
> respect the fact that without people like him, we would not have the freedoms 
> we have now. That's important to remember.
> 

My point was not at all about RMS. My point was about copyleft. Now we
can divert the discussion as far as we want, but I was expressing *my*
point of view, not the point of view of RMS.

And my point is that we already have a powerful weapon to use against
any power that wants to give a too-tight-hug to the free software
community, and that weapon is called *copyleft* (not RMS, which would
be quite a cumbersome weapon to wield anyway, given the mass involved
:)).


HND

KatolaZ

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Re: [DNG] resolved

[Arnt Gulbrandsen]

Simon Hobson writes:
I can understand his POV, though I'm very much in the 
pragmatism camp and use a mix of free and closed software. But, 
I respect his position - and I respect the fact that without 
people like him, we would not have the freedoms we have now. 
That's important to remember.


That's a fact?

I've met Linus, I've spoken to Jordan K. Hubbard on the phone a few times, 
and I have run into Jim Gettys and Thomas Roell at conferences. They all 
seemed pleasant enough, not at all like RMS.


Arnt

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Re: [DNG] resolved

[Simon Hobson]

KatolaZ  wrote:

> Despite being originally intended as a "guerrilla weapon" (and RMS and
> the others were very careful at designing it), copyleft is indeed the
> only way to keep free software free, forever.

Indeed.
I've heard a few descriptions of RMS - most of them uncomplimentary. Having met 
him, I can see why many people dislike him - he does come across very much as 
the stereotypical geek with no social skills (mind you, me writing that does 
involve a certain amount of "pot, kettle, black" - fill in the rest !)
I can understand his POV, though I'm very much in the pragmatism camp and use a 
mix of free and closed software. But, I respect his position - and I respect 
the fact that without people like him, we would not have the freedoms we have 
now. That's important to remember.


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Re: [DNG] resolved

[Rainer Weikusat]

Klaus Hartnegg  writes:
> All programmers please read this, and treat it as a list of things not to do.
>
> https://lists.dns-oarc.net/pipermail/dns-operations/2016-June/014964.html


Hmm ... while this is certainly the usual reimplementation no one to
whom d-bus integration of everything isn't critical needs for
anything and the idea to turn this into another continously running
process is not very sensible, how does this feature-/ behaviour-wise
compare to the existing stub resolver in the C library? In particular,
stub resolvers always rely on something else in order to do the actual
heavy lifting.
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Re: [DNG] resolved

[KatolaZ]

On Tue, Jun 07, 2016 at 12:28:00PM +0200, Didier Kryn wrote:

[cut]

> 
> This puts them in a dangerous position of power. I'm not sure, after
> all, if they really intended to hijack Linux-Gnu. If they really want to do
> that, they might loose many contributions and find themselves alone, in the
> same situation as Apple and Microsoft. I'm not sure this is what they want.
> They may well have just made a mistake and still be unable to see it.
> 

I believe that no corporation will be able to enforce its power on the
Free Software community, unless the community itself lends such power
to corporations. A very risky way of giving power to corporations is
by embracing the post-modern "trend" of using "more permissive
licences" than the GPL/LGPL for any kind of projects.

Now, let's make it clear once and for all that I don't have absolutely
anything against non-copyleft free software licenses (we all use tons
of non-copyleft sw every day, and that's great), but it is undeniable
that a software released under copyleft is much more resilient to the
influences of any external "power" than a software that can be freely
incorporated in proprietary products without any legal bound.


Despite being originally intended as a "guerrilla weapon" (and RMS and
the others were very careful at designing it), copyleft is indeed the
only way to keep free software free, forever. Corporations can come,
inject whatever they want, drive any project on whichever path suits
them, force any rubbish down whatever distro or environment they
like. But if the software they work on is *bound to remain free* by
law, the "power of the fork (tm)" will save it from being put in any
cage. They will have no alternative, but share what they have done,
and put their work under the scrutiny of the community.

Naturally, the situation today is much more complex than a simple
dialectic confrontation between copyleft and non-copyleft, but as a
community we should look back at the good ways we already have to
safeguard ourselves and our software. And copyleft is still today one
of the most powerful "weapons" we possess, despite they want to
convince everybody that it is more "convenient" to not use it for any
"serious" commercial product...

Several evil creatures are lurking out there, in the dark. Please do
not open the door at the first knock-knock, if you wish to avoid bad
surprises...

HND

KatolaZ

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Re: [DNG] resolved

[Dan Purgert]

Jim Murphy wrote:
> On Mon, Jun 6, 2016 at 2:23 PM, Klaus Hartnegg  
> wrote:
> > All programmers please read this, and treat it as a list of things not to 
> > do.
> >
> > https://lists.dns-oarc.net/pipermail/dns-operations/2016-June/014964.html
> >
> > Systemd manages to shoot itself in the foot, and in the elbow, and trigger 
> > a timebomb, all with one single bullet.
> 
> Did anyone follow the "systemd blob" link(within the above
> mentioned link) and read any other points including -logind?
> 
> This apparently prompted a bug[1] on Debian that turned into a
> somewhat long discussion within the bug messages.  It appears
> that Debian wanted to turn on, as default, the clean-up feature on
> logout. If I read it correctly it would kill background processes
> when you log out.  This would result in killing, among other
> things, a detached tmux process or a long running background
> processes that in the past would have remained running.

Prompted discussions in a few other places I frequent.  It's really
funny to see the systemd supporters go "b-b-b-but you can just change
it", without grasping the concept that having it default to "kill all
the things" could very well have considerable cost in terms of "time
wasted".

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Re: [DNG] resolved

[Didier Kryn]

Le 07/06/2016 10:36, Steve Litt a écrit :

>In
>my circle, it is heresy. I suppose I am seeped in the corporate
>culture and find open discussions invigorating.

I'm all for corporations making money. I get paid, why shouldn't they?

But what if I owned a bicycle shop, and furnished bicycle thieves
with bolt cutters and five bucks for every bike they boosted, so that
the recently ripped off would buy a new bike from my shop? That's
basically what Redhat's doing: Destroying Linux to make their training
and consulting more valuable.
Pottering-and-The-Red-Hats drive their buzyness-model on an edge. 
They're making money from their own software which is built on top of 
free software. Many companies contribute for free to Linux because they 
consider it's good for them to have a high quality free OS to run on 
their products or to run their products on. But Redhat is the first, 
probably not the one which gets the most money out of Linux (I bet 
Google gets first), but the one which contributes most to Linux.


The following link gives statistics of who contributes to the Linux 
kernel: 
http://www.linuxfoundation.org/sites/main/files/publications/whowriteslinux.pdf 
. Redhat is the first corporate contributor with 12% of all changes in 
the kernel, and the first reviewer of kernel changes, with 36%, before 
Google, Novell and the total of non-corporate. This is a very strong 
implication, mostly for the benefit of all Linux users.


This puts them in a dangerous position of power. I'm not sure, 
after all, if they really intended to hijack Linux-Gnu. If they really 
want to do that, they might loose many contributions and find themselves 
alone, in the same situation as Apple and Microsoft. I'm not sure this 
is what they want. They may well have just made a mistake and still be 
unable to see it.


Didier

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Re: [DNG] resolved

[Simon Hobson]

Steve Litt  wrote:

> I'm all for corporations making money. I get paid, why shouldn't they?

Indeed. I find it "interesting" to hear some people suggesting they shouldn't 
have to pay for anything - and think that if anyone suggested they shouldn't 
get paid for whatever they do/produce then they might have a different view !
Also bear in mind that a lot of what is "free" is only free and there because 
"someone else" actually paid for it - just look at how many of the major 
projects are led/staffed by people employed by various technology companies to 
produce the "free" stuff.

Eg, while we may deride RH (especially over SystemD), it's true that their 
paying customers do indirectly pay for some of the stuff we use for "free". I 
personally know someone employed by them to work on virtualisation - IIRC he 
works on improvements to things like Qemu.

Of course, we know that a lot of people work on this in their own time - but we 
assume that they are still either employed, or getting a pension, or getting 
some other form of support in order to pay the bills, keep a roof over their 
head, and put food on the table.

> But what if I owned a bicycle shop, and furnished bicycle thieves
> with bolt cutters and five bucks for every bike they boosted, so that
> the recently ripped off would buy a new bike from my shop? That's
> basically what Redhat's doing: Destroying Linux to make their training
> and consulting more valuable.

That does seem a good analogy.

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Re: [DNG] resolved

[Steve Litt]

On Tue, 7 Jun 2016 15:54:31 +0900
Simon Walter  wrote:

> On 06/07/2016 03:47 PM, Jaromil wrote:
> > sorry for abstracting the topic, but I definitely see a pattern in 
> > many contexts. I could bring forward more arguments on why this 
> > happens in the technology industry at a time in which material 
> > production techniques reached an innovation peak after 2 decades of 
> > incredible acceleration.  
> 
> I am interested in your (and everyone's) musings on the subject. 

Me too.

> In
> my circle, it is heresy. I suppose I am seeped in the corporate
> culture and find open discussions invigorating.

I'm all for corporations making money. I get paid, why shouldn't they?

But what if I owned a bicycle shop, and furnished bicycle thieves
with bolt cutters and five bucks for every bike they boosted, so that
the recently ripped off would buy a new bike from my shop? That's
basically what Redhat's doing: Destroying Linux to make their training
and consulting more valuable.

I'm all for people making an honest buck. Nothing honest about Redhat.
Which brings us back to what Jaromil said: There's a lot of for-profit
destruction going on these days. 

> 
> I do think (was it Mr. Litt that said of) Redhat has a part to play.
> How much of that the you es ay spy agencies were involved is
> speculation. I'd love it if some info was leaked. It would cause
> everyone to be much more critical, think twice, and review code more.

Would the motivation for the spy agencies be easier insertion of
backdoors and exploitable bugs?
 
SteveT

Steve Litt
June 2016 featured book: Troubleshooting: Why Bother?
http://www.troubleshooters.com/twb
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Re: [DNG] resolved

[Simon Walter]

On 06/07/2016 03:47 PM, Jaromil wrote:
sorry for abstracting the topic, but I definitely see a pattern in 
many contexts. I could bring forward more arguments on why this 
happens in the technology industry at a time in which material 
production techniques reached an innovation peak after 2 decades of 
incredible acceleration.


I am interested in your (and everyone's) musings on the subject. In my 
circle, it is heresy. I suppose I am seeped in the corporate culture and 
find open discussions invigorating.


I do think (was it Mr. Litt that said of) Redhat has a part to play. How 
much of that the you es ay spy agencies were involved is speculation. 
I'd love it if some info was leaked. It would cause everyone to be much 
more critical, think twice, and review code more.


Simon
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Re: [DNG] resolved

[Jaromil]

> >On Mon, Jun 06, 2016 at 09:23:22PM +0200, Klaus Hartnegg wrote:
> >>All programmers please read this, and treat it as a list of things not
> >>to do.
> >>
> >>https://lists.dns-oarc.net/pipermail/dns-operations/2016-June/014964.html
> >>
> >>Systemd manages to shoot itself in the foot, and in the elbow, and
> >>trigger a timebomb, all with one single bullet.

> - Original Message - From: "KatolaZ" 
> >nevertheless, people keep jumping on the systemd wagon at a steady
> >rate...strange, uh?

On Mon, 06 Jun 2016, Ismael L. Donis Garcia wrote:
> or ignorants?

I think is more of a picture of how the corporate sub-culture and the
industrial world works nowadays. its full of ubris about innovation,
wet dreams of disruptive innovation, desire for an almost magical
notion of qualitative (radical) change for things that always worked.

sorry for abstracting the topic, but I definitely see a pattern in
many contexts. I could bring forward more arguments on why this
happens in the technology industry at a time in which material
production techniques reached an innovation peak after 2 decades of
incredible acceleration.

ciao

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Re: [DNG] resolved

[Edward Bartolo]

Hi,

The most irritating feature I often found time wasting and useless in
MS Windows was precisely having to reboot so many times. These new
systemd features remind me of the same nightmares.

Why code a system so unwittingly as to implement it in a way that is
too complicated and so cumbersome as to require a reboot for cleanup?
If my memory serves me right, even the kernel can be upgraded without
rebooting. This malady of seeing a reboot as a system clean up
procedure should have been eradicated rather than adopted.

Reading the link made me continue to see more corroborates that
systemd is coded in a way to break its competitors!

Shame!

Edward

On 07/06/2016, Steve Litt  wrote:
> On Mon, 6 Jun 2016 10:27:24 -1000
> Joel Roth  wrote:
>
>> On Mon, Jun 06, 2016 at 08:48:12PM +0100, KatolaZ wrote:
>> > On Mon, Jun 06, 2016 at 09:23:22PM +0200, Klaus Hartnegg wrote:
>> > > All programmers please read this, and treat it as a list of
>> > > things not to do.
>> > >
>> > > https://lists.dns-oarc.net/pipermail/dns-operations/2016-June/014964.html
>> > >
>> > > Systemd manages to shoot itself in the foot, and in the elbow,
>> > > and trigger a timebomb, all with one single bullet.
>> >
>> > nevertheless, people keep jumping on the systemd wagon at a
>> > steady rate...strange, uh?
>>
>> Well, for users, it just comes with the OS. So nothing new
>> there.
>>
>> Distributions are another matter. I'm sure, as with the
>> Debian PRNG, the spooks put their heads together to find the
>> weak points where they can bend the open source movement to
>> their ends.
>>
>> One of the weak points is the attraction of end users for a
>> cocooned existence. That influences dist developers,
>> especially since many are the same youngsters enthralled
>> by all things Apple'ish.
>>
>> Another motivation often mentioned, of Red Hat, to increase
>> their consulting revenues.
>
> LOL, the URL has "pipermail" in it, reminding me how the Pied Piper led
> all the rats out of town and into the river, which reminds me how
> Lennart and the Redhats (my favorite band) are leading all the ignorants
> into what is essentially Windows2.
>
> But look at it this way: Lennart and the Redhats takeover failed. We
> still have choices of Devuan, Void, Funtoo, PC-BSD, Alpine, and several
> others, and those aren't going away. We humans remain in the town we
> love, and simply wave goodbye to the dumber members of our species.
> There is still choice.
>
> I don't think I'm alone when I say that if I had a crystal ball in
> September 2014, and saw the Linux world of June 2016, I would have
> jumped for joy. I expected things to turn out much, much worse. Lennart
> and the Redhats really did fail, and I have a feeling over the next 3
> years their world will slowly crumble.
>
> SteveT
>
> Steve Litt
> June 2016 featured book: Troubleshooting: Why Bother?
> http://www.troubleshooters.com/twb
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Re: [DNG] resolved

[Didier Kryn]

Le 07/06/2016 02:56, Steve Litt a écrit :

  I expected things to turn out much, much worse. Lennart
and the Redhats really did fail, and I have a feeling over the next 3
years their world will slowly crumble.
I expected they were more clever and they designed more carefully 
their invasion strategy. On the contrary, they are trying to take over 
every part of the system right now without a carefull thinking, so that 
even their supporters have a chance to open eyes at what it is about. 
Maybe they'll fail miserably after all, thanks to their ubris.


Didier

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Re: [DNG] resolved

[Steve Litt]

On Mon, 6 Jun 2016 10:27:24 -1000
Joel Roth  wrote:

> On Mon, Jun 06, 2016 at 08:48:12PM +0100, KatolaZ wrote:
> > On Mon, Jun 06, 2016 at 09:23:22PM +0200, Klaus Hartnegg wrote:  
> > > All programmers please read this, and treat it as a list of
> > > things not to do.
> > > 
> > > https://lists.dns-oarc.net/pipermail/dns-operations/2016-June/014964.html
> > > 
> > > Systemd manages to shoot itself in the foot, and in the elbow,
> > > and trigger a timebomb, all with one single bullet. 
> > 
> > nevertheless, people keep jumping on the systemd wagon at a
> > steady rate...strange, uh?  
> 
> Well, for users, it just comes with the OS. So nothing new
> there. 
> 
> Distributions are another matter. I'm sure, as with the
> Debian PRNG, the spooks put their heads together to find the
> weak points where they can bend the open source movement to
> their ends.
> 
> One of the weak points is the attraction of end users for a
> cocooned existence. That influences dist developers,
> especially since many are the same youngsters enthralled
> by all things Apple'ish.
> 
> Another motivation often mentioned, of Red Hat, to increase
> their consulting revenues.

LOL, the URL has "pipermail" in it, reminding me how the Pied Piper led
all the rats out of town and into the river, which reminds me how
Lennart and the Redhats (my favorite band) are leading all the ignorants
into what is essentially Windows2.

But look at it this way: Lennart and the Redhats takeover failed. We
still have choices of Devuan, Void, Funtoo, PC-BSD, Alpine, and several
others, and those aren't going away. We humans remain in the town we
love, and simply wave goodbye to the dumber members of our species.
There is still choice.

I don't think I'm alone when I say that if I had a crystal ball in
September 2014, and saw the Linux world of June 2016, I would have
jumped for joy. I expected things to turn out much, much worse. Lennart
and the Redhats really did fail, and I have a feeling over the next 3
years their world will slowly crumble.

SteveT

Steve Litt
June 2016 featured book: Troubleshooting: Why Bother?
http://www.troubleshooters.com/twb
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Re: [DNG] resolved

[Simon Walter]

On 06/07/2016 05:45 AM, Jim Murphy wrote:

On Mon, Jun 6, 2016 at 2:23 PM, Klaus Hartnegg  wrote:

All programmers please read this, and treat it as a list of things not to do.

https://lists.dns-oarc.net/pipermail/dns-operations/2016-June/014964.html

Systemd manages to shoot itself in the foot, and in the elbow, and trigger a 
timebomb, all with one single bullet.

Did anyone follow the "systemd blob" link(within the above
mentioned link) and read any other points including -logind?

This apparently prompted a bug[1] on Debian that turned into a
somewhat long discussion within the bug messages.  It appears
that Debian wanted to turn on, as default, the clean-up feature on
logout. If I read it correctly it would kill background processes
when you log out.  This would result in killing, among other
things, a detached tmux process or a long running background
processes that in the past would have remained running.

So maybe the average user won't be concerned. :(

[1] https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=825394




Yes, that "clean-up" feature was mentioned and discussed and pretty 
vomited on - for obvious reasons. Which is why, and I repeat myself, I 
am so thankful for everyone here. Not everyone drank the coolaid!

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Re: [DNG] resolved

[Jim Murphy]

On Mon, Jun 6, 2016 at 2:23 PM, Klaus Hartnegg  wrote:
> All programmers please read this, and treat it as a list of things not to do.
>
> https://lists.dns-oarc.net/pipermail/dns-operations/2016-June/014964.html
>
> Systemd manages to shoot itself in the foot, and in the elbow, and trigger a 
> timebomb, all with one single bullet.

Did anyone follow the "systemd blob" link(within the above
mentioned link) and read any other points including -logind?

This apparently prompted a bug[1] on Debian that turned into a
somewhat long discussion within the bug messages.  It appears
that Debian wanted to turn on, as default, the clean-up feature on
logout. If I read it correctly it would kill background processes
when you log out.  This would result in killing, among other
things, a detached tmux process or a long running background
processes that in the past would have remained running.

So maybe the average user won't be concerned. :(

[1] https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=825394

Jim
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Re: [DNG] resolved

[Ismael L. Donis Garcia]

- Original Message - 
From: "KatolaZ" <kato...@freaknet.org>

To: <dng@lists.dyne.org>
Sent: Monday, June 06, 2016 3:48 PM
Subject: Re: [DNG] resolved



On Mon, Jun 06, 2016 at 09:23:22PM +0200, Klaus Hartnegg wrote:
All programmers please read this, and treat it as a list of things not to 
do.


https://lists.dns-oarc.net/pipermail/dns-operations/2016-June/014964.html

Systemd manages to shoot itself in the foot, and in the elbow, and 
trigger a timebomb, all with one single bullet.




nevertheless, people keep jumping on the systemd wagon at a steady
rate...strange, uh?


or ignorants?



:(

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[ ~.,_  Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ - GLUGCT -- Freaknet Medialab  ]
[ "+.  katolaz [at] freaknet.org --- katolaz [at] yahoo.it  ]
[   @)   http://kalos.mine.nu ---  Devuan GNU + Linux User  ]
[ @@)  http://maths.qmul.ac.uk/~vnicosia --  GPG: 0B5F062F  ]
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Best Regards

| ISMAEL |



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Re: [DNG] resolved

[Joel Roth]

On Mon, Jun 06, 2016 at 08:48:12PM +0100, KatolaZ wrote:
> On Mon, Jun 06, 2016 at 09:23:22PM +0200, Klaus Hartnegg wrote:
> > All programmers please read this, and treat it as a list of things not to 
> > do.
> > 
> > https://lists.dns-oarc.net/pipermail/dns-operations/2016-June/014964.html
> > 
> > Systemd manages to shoot itself in the foot, and in the elbow, and trigger 
> > a timebomb, all with one single bullet.
> > 
> 
> nevertheless, people keep jumping on the systemd wagon at a steady
> rate...strange, uh?

Well, for users, it just comes with the OS. So nothing new
there. 

Distributions are another matter. I'm sure, as with the
Debian PRNG, the spooks put their heads together to find the
weak points where they can bend the open source movement to
their ends.

One of the weak points is the attraction of end users for a
cocooned existence. That influences dist developers,
especially since many are the same youngsters enthralled
by all things Apple'ish.

Another motivation often mentioned, of Red Hat, to increase
their consulting revenues.

Perhaps a few pithy promotional phrases will help Devuan.

Devuan, the diesel engine / Energizer Bunny of Linux distributions -- it runs
forever.

But this mail is mostly flamage... sorry :)


 
> :(
> 
> -- 
> [ ~.,_  Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ - GLUGCT -- Freaknet Medialab  ]  
> [ "+.  katolaz [at] freaknet.org --- katolaz [at] yahoo.it  ]
> [   @)   http://kalos.mine.nu ---  Devuan GNU + Linux User  ]
> [ @@)  http://maths.qmul.ac.uk/~vnicosia --  GPG: 0B5F062F  ] 
> [ (@@@)  Twitter: @KatolaZ - skype: katolaz -- github: KatolaZ  ]
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-- 
Joel Roth
  

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Re: [DNG] resolved

[KatolaZ]

On Mon, Jun 06, 2016 at 09:23:22PM +0200, Klaus Hartnegg wrote:
> All programmers please read this, and treat it as a list of things not to do.
> 
> https://lists.dns-oarc.net/pipermail/dns-operations/2016-June/014964.html
> 
> Systemd manages to shoot itself in the foot, and in the elbow, and trigger a 
> timebomb, all with one single bullet.
> 

nevertheless, people keep jumping on the systemd wagon at a steady
rate...strange, uh?

:(

-- 
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[ "+.  katolaz [at] freaknet.org --- katolaz [at] yahoo.it  ]
[   @)   http://kalos.mine.nu ---  Devuan GNU + Linux User  ]
[ @@)  http://maths.qmul.ac.uk/~vnicosia --  GPG: 0B5F062F  ] 
[ (@@@)  Twitter: @KatolaZ - skype: katolaz -- github: KatolaZ  ]
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[DNG] resolved

[Klaus Hartnegg]

All programmers please read this, and treat it as a list of things not to do.

https://lists.dns-oarc.net/pipermail/dns-operations/2016-June/014964.html

Systemd manages to shoot itself in the foot, and in the elbow, and trigger a 
timebomb, all with one single bullet.


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