Re: [DNG] FSF, RMS and a danger to almost all GPL code
Dear Didier, On 2/4/21 10:14, Didier Kryn wrote: Le 01/04/2021 à 14:39, Steve Litt a écrit : Didier Kryn said on Wed, 31 Mar 2021 12:07:50 +0200 cancel-culture Please don't use that phrase, unless you're the second coming of Rush Limbaugh. It's an ugly, Foxnews/right wing radio epithet for the time-honored practice of boycotting, perhaps the last tool of power for the average citizen. It's a trope. Sorry Steve if you were shocked. I've never watched Foxnews nor the person you name and whose name I read for the first time. I don't live in the US but the word "cancel culture" has spread over the world and is seen in my country as a fashion which I don't think I need to describe here. I was always a leftist, which means in my country far more left that in yours. I think social networks favour the trends of humans to form groups of activists against whatever immorality, supposed or real, and collectively harrass the people they declare guilty. When this happens against living people, wether unknown or famous, it is just called harrasment; when it addresses dead celebrities, we call it by the word you disapprove. My position in the current debate about RMS is evolving and balancing. You mentioned this phrase because someone else did it before in the gcc mailing list: << Perhaps you’ll claim my request is ‘cancel culture’. That is the cry of the hypocrite – this is ‘actions have consequences’. >> ... And this is the way RMS is being criminalized (under which jurisprudence?) even though weshould learn to discern between "statements" and "actions". However, I fully agree with people saying Devuan should try to stay neutral in this debate. After three decades of sorrow and blood (some of you'll know where I am from), I'm aware thatpoliticscan break families and friendships.And, of course, communities. Aitor. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] FSF, RMS and a danger to almost all GPL code
On 02/04/2021 19:46, Mason Loring Bliss wrote: On Thu, Apr 01, 2021 at 08:39:30AM -0400, Steve Litt wrote: Didier Kryn said on Wed, 31 Mar 2021 12:07:50 +0200 cancel-culture Please don't use that phrase, unless you're the second coming of Rush Limbaugh. It's an ugly, Foxnews/right wing radio epithet for the time-honored practice of boycotting, perhaps the last tool of power for the average citizen. This bears some discussion. This notion of "cancelling" someone is different. It's aimed at an individual, and it generally seeks to do them harm - see them out of a job, for instance, beyond public humiliation. aka "justice by the mob" It's worth using the phrase "cancel culture" because it's very different from a boycott Yup, although beyond the whole "moral person" or "physical person" difference, an individual boycotting a company will always be on the weak side, hence it can be seen as exercising some rights. On a case of a mob against target individual, the mob will always be on the strong side. This is radically opposed. However, that is not even enough to explain it. The most worrysome aspect of cancel-culture is the aspects you quoted earlier. Victims (real, alleged or even just remotely feeling so) claim the right to fight back on a personal level, therefore becoming bullies. - There is public humiliation. - The target shall lose his/her job. - Beyond work, (s)he shall be barred from having a normal life anymore, getting "tagged" as bad anywhere, including in any casual or leisure location, having his/her reputation destroyed. - (S)He must "pay the price", although his/her wrongdoing is not clearly established and/or debatable and "the price" to pay is limitless. In a way, this is the same logic as "lock him/her up": prison is the final destination. You switch in a binary logic from white to black, and the stain is eternal. No rehabilitation, only pain until you withdraw, and eventually you die. Cancel-culture is such a prison without walls. Once you're targeted, you bear the stain for life. Anyone engaging in that is blinded by hatred, fear and/or pain. So, there's the problem. What are possible answers? Justice. Final sentence (destroying a life for good) without cause (basing oneself on circumstantial evidence, if any), without debate nor cross-examination (not all parties are heard nor tried equally), without an exit (pre-determined sentence). That is the exact opposite of any sound juridical system. The answer has always been the same: forbidding harassment and trial by a mob, making people seeking justice to bring any claim in a judicial system, which will deal with any legal offence swiftly, according to a set of laws which content is known and pre-determined at the moment of the trial. Justice. Bernard (Beer) Rosset https://rosset.net/ ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] FSF, RMS and a danger to almost all GPL code
On Thu, Apr 01, 2021 at 08:39:30AM -0400, Steve Litt wrote: > Didier Kryn said on Wed, 31 Mar 2021 12:07:50 +0200 > > > cancel-culture > > Please don't use that phrase, unless you're the second coming of Rush > Limbaugh. It's an ugly, Foxnews/right wing radio epithet for the > time-honored practice of boycotting, perhaps the last tool of power for > the average citizen. This bears some discussion. In a boycott, I choose to not deal with a company (usually) and that's it. I might publicise that I'm boycotting a place and why, but that's the extent of it. (To that end, my family boycotts Amazon and Wal-Mart.) This notion of "cancelling" someone is different. It's aimed at an individual, and it generally seeks to do them harm - see them out of a job, for instance, beyond public humiliation. I don't have a settled opinion about this. I've certainly thought "serves them right" when someone who harms other people is called out, but what's different here is that it's someone I respect, and a situation where I don't think the evidence presented against him holds up. This is someone who has dedicated his life to making the world a better place in a particular way, not, by comparison, an elected official mocking his electorate as they suffer and freeze to death (literally) because the climate disaster is catching up to us. And yet, I have to recognize that the people carrying the torches and pitchforks feel like RMS has done harm various ways. They think this, and they take the opinions and records as being valid, even if I can look at most of the same "evidence" and point out holes and context that utterly changes its character. It's worth using the phrase "cancel culture" because it's very different from a boycott, and we need to understand what it does, and how, and if there are better options for redressing grievances and finding justice. And I don't know how to do this. It'd be easy if everyone cared about people and we took care of each other, if people didn't victimize each other, but that's not yet the world we live in. I think "cancel culture" is the result of someone speaking up and saying "this cannot stand" and other people taking up the cry, but it's awfully close to mob justice. But if we don't want mob justice, we need a judiciary. We don't have one set up to rule on moral or ethical stances. We hardly prosecute white-collar or corporate crime at all, nowadays. So, there's the problem. What are possible answers? -- Mason Loring Bliss ma...@blisses.orgEwige Blumenkraft! (if awake 'sleep (aref #(sleep dream) (random 2))) -- Hamlet, Act III, Scene I signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] FSF, RMS and a danger to almost all GPL code
Le 01/04/2021 à 14:39, Steve Litt a écrit : > Didier Kryn said on Wed, 31 Mar 2021 12:07:50 +0200 > >> cancel-culture > Please don't use that phrase, unless you're the second coming of Rush > Limbaugh. It's an ugly, Foxnews/right wing radio epithet for the > time-honored practice of boycotting, perhaps the last tool of power for > the average citizen. It's a trope. Sorry Steve if you were shocked. I've never watched Foxnews nor the person you name and whose name I read for the first time. I don't live in the US but the word "cancel culture" has spread over the world and is seen in my country as a fashion which I don't think I need to describe here. I was always a leftist, which means in my country far more left that in yours. I think social networks favour the trends of humans to form groups of activists against whatever immorality, supposed or real, and collectively harrass the people they declare guilty. When this happens against living people, wether unknown or famous, it is just called harrasment; when it addresses dead celebrities, we call it by the word you disapprove. My position in the current debate about RMS is evolving and balancing. -- Didier ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] FSF, RMS and a danger to almost all GPL code
Hi all Wed, 31 Mar 2021 12:41:54 -0500 - goli...@devuan.org: > In case you haven't noticed . . . we've already lost that battle. Those > of us who oppose the trajectory may huddle in small ponds like Devuan > but the masses will follow whatever paradigm our corporate > masters/politicians are selling and eventually our "cause" will be lost > in time. Humans may be able to manipulate the external world but have no > understanding of the internal forces that drive them to, more often than > not, make choices that bring nothing but suffering and destruction to > themselves and others of our species. > > golinux Indeed. It's exactly like that. I completely agree. And the battle was lost a few years ago. And that this would be the outcome, it was evident from long before, at least by the advent of smartphones, social and first cloud services. And whoever then did this (in my opinion easy) forecast, was considered a complottist, or a somewhat strange and half-crazy person... > > On 2021-03-31 11:57, Tony Thedford wrote: > > I think it goes much deeper than that. In these days and times, those > > who control the world's software controls the world. It is literally a > > "good" vs "evil" event. The way we choose to view it will decide our > > future. > > > > > > On 3/31/21 11:41 AM, Didier Kryn wrote: > >> Le 31/03/2021 à 18:12, Tony Thedford a écrit : > >>> I am wondering, what good are developers to the Linux community if > >>> they are moving their projects more and more into the "evil" column? > >>> What is needed are "good" developers and a total rejection of the > >>> globalist cancel cultures. Project advancement at any cost is a > >>> destructive goal. > >> One side may be accused of sacrificing to cancel culture and the > >> other to the cult of personality (~: > >> > >> -- Didier Regards al3xu5 -- Say NO to copyright, patents, trademarks and industrial design restrictions! Public GPG/PGP key: 8FC2 3121 2803 86E9 F7D8 B624 DA50 835B 2624 A36B pgpWWVO2RE6Y1.pgp Description: Firma digitale OpenPGP ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] FSF, RMS and a danger to almost all GPL code
Tony Thedford said on Thu, 1 Apr 2021 08:33:56 -0500 >Dude, you are part of the problem if you don't understand what cancel >culture is, which apparently you do not. Oh, so we're getting personal now, huh top-poster? I repeat, it's about boycotts, and their effect on big organizations. Pry your ears off right wing radio and you might understand that. Of course, neither of our personal insults prove a point: https://www.logicalfallacies.org/ad-hominem.html . SteveT Proud current or past boycotter of lettuce, Salvation Army, Walmart, Amazon, Chic Fil A, Sanford Florida, and all things Redhat. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] FSF, RMS and a danger to almost all GPL code
Dude, you are part of the problem if you don't understand what cancel culture is, which apparently you do not. On 4/1/21 7:39 AM, Steve Litt wrote: Didier Kryn said on Wed, 31 Mar 2021 12:07:50 +0200 cancel-culture Please don't use that phrase, unless you're the second coming of Rush Limbaugh. It's an ugly, Foxnews/right wing radio epithet for the time-honored practice of boycotting, perhaps the last tool of power for the average citizen. It's a trope. The preceding paragraph says nothing about my opinion on Stallman or the issues discussed in this thread. SteveT Steve Litt Spring 2021 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques of the Successful Technologist http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] FSF, RMS and a danger to almost all GPL code
Tony Thedford said on Wed, 31 Mar 2021 12:54:07 -0500 Great, our society is disappearing. Now can we get back to systemd-free technology that we can enjoy until the Sacks and Vandals invade? SteveT >I also believe what you just said to be very true, the cancer is in >irreversible control. Perhaps this human trait is why typically >civilizations and countries only last a few hundred or couple of >thousand years then disappear. > > >On 3/31/21 12:41 PM, goli...@devuan.org wrote: >> In case you haven't noticed . . . we've already lost that battle. >> Those of us who oppose the trajectory may huddle in small ponds like >> Devuan but the masses will follow whatever paradigm our corporate >> masters/politicians are selling and eventually our "cause" will be >> lost in time. Humans may be able to manipulate the external world >> but have no understanding of the internal forces that drive them to, >> more often than not, make choices that bring nothing but suffering >> and destruction to themselves and others of our species. >> >> golinux >> >> On 2021-03-31 11:57, Tony Thedford wrote: >>> I think it goes much deeper than that. In these days and times, >>> those who control the world's software controls the world. It is >>> literally a "good" vs "evil" event. The way we choose to view it >>> will decide our future. >>> >>> >>> On 3/31/21 11:41 AM, Didier Kryn wrote: Le 31/03/2021 à 18:12, Tony Thedford a écrit : > I am wondering, what good are developers to the Linux community if > they are moving their projects more and more into the "evil" > column? What is needed are "good" developers and a total > rejection of the globalist cancel cultures. Project advancement > at any cost is a destructive goal. One side may be accused of sacrificing to cancel culture and the other to the cult of personality (~: -- Didier ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] FSF, RMS and a danger to almost all GPL code
Tony Thedford said on Wed, 31 Mar 2021 11:12:56 -0500 >What is needed are "good" developers and a total rejection of the >globalist cancel cultures. Are you going to start yapping about how the Illuminati secretly run the world now? Seriously people, get a grip. SteveT Steve Litt Spring 2021 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques of the Successful Technologist http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] FSF, RMS and a danger to almost all GPL code
Didier Kryn said on Wed, 31 Mar 2021 12:07:50 +0200 > cancel-culture Please don't use that phrase, unless you're the second coming of Rush Limbaugh. It's an ugly, Foxnews/right wing radio epithet for the time-honored practice of boycotting, perhaps the last tool of power for the average citizen. It's a trope. The preceding paragraph says nothing about my opinion on Stallman or the issues discussed in this thread. SteveT Steve Litt Spring 2021 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques of the Successful Technologist http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] FSF, RMS and a danger to almost all GPL code
On Wed, 31 Mar 2021 12:54:07 -0500, Tony wrote in message <14564811-2130-7180-6027-e243671fe...@accesslab.com>: > I also believe what you just said to be very true, the cancer is in > irreversible control. Perhaps this human trait is why typically > civilizations and countries only last a few hundred or couple of > thousand years then disappear. ..looks like a global tradition going back all the way to the trilobites some 400 million years ago... "Yeehaw." -- ..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt Karlsen ...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry... Scenarios always come in sets of three: best case, worst case, and just in case. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] FSF, RMS and a danger to almost all GPL code
I also believe what you just said to be very true, the cancer is in irreversible control. Perhaps this human trait is why typically civilizations and countries only last a few hundred or couple of thousand years then disappear. On 3/31/21 12:41 PM, goli...@devuan.org wrote: In case you haven't noticed . . . we've already lost that battle. Those of us who oppose the trajectory may huddle in small ponds like Devuan but the masses will follow whatever paradigm our corporate masters/politicians are selling and eventually our "cause" will be lost in time. Humans may be able to manipulate the external world but have no understanding of the internal forces that drive them to, more often than not, make choices that bring nothing but suffering and destruction to themselves and others of our species. golinux On 2021-03-31 11:57, Tony Thedford wrote: I think it goes much deeper than that. In these days and times, those who control the world's software controls the world. It is literally a "good" vs "evil" event. The way we choose to view it will decide our future. On 3/31/21 11:41 AM, Didier Kryn wrote: Le 31/03/2021 à 18:12, Tony Thedford a écrit : I am wondering, what good are developers to the Linux community if they are moving their projects more and more into the "evil" column? What is needed are "good" developers and a total rejection of the globalist cancel cultures. Project advancement at any cost is a destructive goal. One side may be accused of sacrificing to cancel culture and the other to the cult of personality (~: -- Didier ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] FSF, RMS and a danger to almost all GPL code
In case you haven't noticed . . . we've already lost that battle. Those of us who oppose the trajectory may huddle in small ponds like Devuan but the masses will follow whatever paradigm our corporate masters/politicians are selling and eventually our "cause" will be lost in time. Humans may be able to manipulate the external world but have no understanding of the internal forces that drive them to, more often than not, make choices that bring nothing but suffering and destruction to themselves and others of our species. golinux On 2021-03-31 11:57, Tony Thedford wrote: I think it goes much deeper than that. In these days and times, those who control the world's software controls the world. It is literally a "good" vs "evil" event. The way we choose to view it will decide our future. On 3/31/21 11:41 AM, Didier Kryn wrote: Le 31/03/2021 à 18:12, Tony Thedford a écrit : I am wondering, what good are developers to the Linux community if they are moving their projects more and more into the "evil" column? What is needed are "good" developers and a total rejection of the globalist cancel cultures. Project advancement at any cost is a destructive goal. One side may be accused of sacrificing to cancel culture and the other to the cult of personality (~: -- Didier ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] FSF, RMS and a danger to almost all GPL code
I think it goes much deeper than that. In these days and times, those who control the world's software controls the world. It is literally a "good" vs "evil" event. The way we choose to view it will decide our future. On 3/31/21 11:41 AM, Didier Kryn wrote: Le 31/03/2021 à 18:12, Tony Thedford a écrit : I am wondering, what good are developers to the Linux community if they are moving their projects more and more into the "evil" column? What is needed are "good" developers and a total rejection of the globalist cancel cultures. Project advancement at any cost is a destructive goal. One side may be accused of sacrificing to cancel culture and the other to the cult of personality (~: -- Didier ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] FSF, RMS and a danger to almost all GPL code
Le 31/03/2021 à 18:12, Tony Thedford a écrit : > > I am wondering, what good are developers to the Linux community if > they are moving their projects more and more into the "evil" column? > What is needed are "good" developers and a total rejection of the > globalist cancel cultures. Project advancement at any cost is a > destructive goal. One side may be accused of sacrificing to cancel culture and the other to the cult of personality (~: -- Didier ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] FSF, RMS and a danger to almost all GPL code
On 3/31/21 10:53 AM, dng-requ...@lists.dyne.org wrote: Re: [DNG] FSF, RMS and a danger to almost all GPL code >Which is very sad is that developpers or potential developpers seem to condition their future contribution to the decision - and they are on both sides. Wether customers of Free Software abandon it, who cares? What is needed is developpers. -- Didier I am wondering, what good are developers to the Linux community if they are moving their projects more and more into the "evil" column? What is needed are "good" developers and a total rejection of the globalist cancel cultures. Project advancement at any cost is a destructive goal. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] FSF, RMS and a danger to almost all GPL code
Discussion on that subject has taken 95% of the bandwidth on the GCC development mailing list. I guess the same thing is hapenning in other projects and in GNU proper. AFAIU the status of RMS in GCC's steering commitee is purely honorific and the debate is about denying him this honour. Everything has been said on both sides and discussion has even brought in ideology beyond the cancel-culture and the role of social media. I think the voters, if there are (the point isn't clear to me) have read enough - and so has RMS himself - to make their decision. Which is very sad is that developpers or potential developpers seem to condition their future contribution to the decision - and they are on both sides. Wether customers of Free Software abandon it, who cares? What is needed is developpers. -- Didier ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] FSF, RMS and a danger to almost all GPL code
On Sat, 2021-03-27 at 08:30 -0400, Steve Litt wrote: > And now you're suggesting Devuan put that all at risk to take a stand > on RMS. Well you know what? No distro should get involved with > politics, and this RMS thing *is* politics. It cost Mint plenty of > users when they said supporters of Israel shouldn't use Mint, and it > just might destroy Devuan if they take a stand, on either side, on > this RMS thing. Something struck me as deeply wrong about your post but I couldn't articulate it. After much pondering it struck like a bolt and it was the paragraph above that did it so thanks. :) The RMS thing is politics, that is why they want him gone, he won't inject politics into the the FSF. And we must fight because we are all in extreme danger. Apparently we all just assumed Richard Stallman was immortal and would always lead the FSF or we wouldn't have done what we all did. We must save Richard's bacon long enough for everyone to fix the problem. Hang on for a brief diversion, the tale will get back on track. CoCs. They are annoying but can't impact usage. They can't be avoided in most projects now because too many developers work for corporations and would be fired for failure to demand them. Because Free Software licenses don't allow restrictions on field of use, they don't impact users at all. If enough productive developers decided they didn't like the CoC they could easily smash it with a Libreoffice gambit. One way gate. Fork a new project site under a new name with a one line CoC sayin "The only code of conduct is be excellent and never propose editing this file, it is the only mandatory banning offense." The new fork can take every patch from the original but the original can't touch the new site lest they accept code from people who haven't agreed to the standard pozzed CoC. Checkmate, the second a critical mass of independent developers decide to go for it. Now imagine Stallman is out at the FSF and somebody tries this. All they need do is release the GPL4, allowing CoCs, field of use restrictions and all the rest of the political nonsense be integrated into the actual license, impacting developers AND users. It was your mentioning Mint's misguided (and certainly unenforcable) attempt to impose field of use restrictions on their users that got the thought train going. It is vital that as many projects as possible get to work NOW to change their license terms. Corporate dominated projects are probably already past the point where they can be saved. Be prepared to grab the last available version under a sane license when the time comes, and as events are moving ever faster, it will come soon. As of now there are only three possibilities that are survivable. GPL2, GPL3 and GPL2 or GPL3 at your option. No "or later" ever again. BSD code of course has no defense when the corporate HR depts come calling with demands. Nothing to be done about that. Haven't had time to look at the other licenses. Anything with an "or later" clause, be warned and pay attention to who you are giving unilateral authority to rewrite the license to. signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
