Re: [DNG] I wrote IBM

[Rick Moen]

Quoting goli...@devuan.org (goli...@devuan.org):

> This email does not address the content of this email but rather
> something very strange that came through in the header:
> 
> https://dev1galaxy.org/files/cruft.png
> 
> This started with the above email from Steve.

I'll retain for a while that verbatim message from Steve Litt, in case
you and I need to discuss it.  E.g, I could put the full headers as seen
here into Pastebin.  To be clear, as received here, Steve's mail and all
the others recently (received from Dng) look just fine as received here.

Locally on linuxmafia.com, all the mail from my Devuan mailing list
subscriptions arrive at my SMTP daemon (Exim4), get handed off to
Procmail as Local Delivery Agent, and get appended to mbox file
/home/rick/inboxes/lists .  And the contents (including recently arrived
mails including Steve's) look correct and properly formatted both when
viewed using a terminal pager such as /usr/bin/less or when viewed using
my preferred Mail User Agent (mail client), mutt.

I notice that your own headers include:

User-Agent: Dyne.org Webmail

This raises the probably unwelcome and very annoying possibility that
the program referenced had a parsing problem on one or more recently
arrived pieces of mail.

If you can get the attention of someone who has local administrative
access (at the shell) on the dyne.org host, he/she could take a look at
whatever mailbox file this 'Dyne.org Webmail' program relies on for your
mail -- to see if there's any obvious corruption in the file as stored
locally (your Inbox folder, I mean).  Maybe it's an mbox file (or a
Maildir directory tree).  Either of those is pretty easy to expunge file
corruption from.


But also, something is confusing me, here:

> Here's the complete header.  Problem is under "Precedence: list":

> Return-Path: 
> Delivered-To: goli...@devuan.org
[big snip]
> Precedence: list
> List-Id: "The first mailinglist after debianfork.org"
> 
> List-Unsubscribe:
> ,
> 
> List-Archive:
> 
> List-Post: 
> List-Help: 
> List-Subscribe:
> ,
> 
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
> Errors-To: dng-boun...@lists.dyne.org
> Sender: "Dng" 


Um... nothing there looks corrupted in any way, to my eyes.
If 'Dyne.org Webmail' cannot parse that correctly, then IMO it has a
big (parsing) problem.  That's a bog-standard set of headers.


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Re: [DNG] I wrote IBM

[Rick Moen]

Quoting goli...@devuan.org (goli...@devuan.org):

> This is what arrived with your above reply:
> 
> From  Hendrik Boom   Add contact
> SenderDng   Add contact
> Todng@lists.dyne.org  Add contact
> Date  Today 14:56
> Mailing List   href="mailto:dng-requ...@lists.dyne.org?subject=help;
> target="_blank" onclick="return 
> rcmail.command('compose','dng-requ...@lists.dyne.org?subject=help',this)">Help href="https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng;
> target="_blank">Subscribe href="https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/dng;
> target="_blank">Unsubscribe href="mailto:dng@lists.dyne.org; target="_blank" onclick="return 
> rcmail.command('compose','dng@lists.dyne.org',this)">Post href="https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/dng/;
> target="_blank">List Archive
> 
> All lists on dyne server(s) are suffering from this.  It is a
> mystery and very annoying . . .

FWIW, I'm _not_ seeing that on any postings to Dng.  (I cannot speak at
this writing to possible strangeness on other dyne.org mailing lists,
but on a hunch would expect to see the same thing as there I do on Dng.)

I would surmise that the effect you speak of us happening in some
misbehaving MUA (mail client), like maybe someone's installation of
Roundcube.
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Re: [DNG] I wrote IBM

[Olaf Meeuwissen via Dng]

Hi golinux,

goli...@devuan.org writes:

> On 2019-10-23 14:56, Hendrik Boom wrote:
>> On Wed, Oct 23, 2019 at 02:06:32PM -0500, goli...@devuan.org wrote:
>>> On 2019-10-22 23:20, Steve Litt wrote:
>>> > On Mon, 14 Oct 2019 11:44:11 -0500
>>> > goli...@devuan.org wrote:
>>> >
>>>
>>> This email does not address the content of this email but rather
>>> something
>>> very strange that came through in the header:
>>>
>>> https://dev1galaxy.org/files/cruft.png
>>>
>>> This started with the above email from Steve.  Even stranger is that
>>> all
>>> email in my Inbox from the creation of this account now has that mass
>>> of
>>> text in the header. It is not happening to my @dyne account even
>>> though I
>>> assume they are on the same server. Nor in this happening to folders
>>> with
>>> saved email. I have not consciously changed any settings though cannot
>>> rule
>>> out some random unintended click. Does anyone have insight as to what
>>> is
>>> going on?  Rick Moen . . . you around?
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> golinux
>>>
>>> ---
>>>
>>> Here's the complete header.  Problem is under "Precedence: list":
>>
>> And I don't see it in this header nor in the header on top of this
>> message.
>> Presumably it was in what you sent, but not in what I received.
>> Puzzling.
>>
>> -- hendrik
>>
>
> This is what arrived with your above reply:
>
>
>  From Hendrik Boom   Add contact
> SenderDng   Add contact
> Todng@lists.dyne.org  Add contact
> Date  Today 14:56
> Mailing List  mailto:dng-requ...@lists.dyne.org?subject=help;
> target="_blank" onclick="return
> rcmail.command('compose','dng-requ...@lists.dyne.org?subject=help',this)">Help href="https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng;
> target="_blank">Subscribe href="https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/dng;
> target="_blank">Unsubscribe href="mailto:dng@lists.dyne.org; target="_blank" onclick="return
> rcmail.command('compose','dng@lists.dyne.org',this)">Post href="https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/dng/;
> target="_blank">List Archive
>
> All lists on dyne server(s) are suffering from this.  It is a mystery
> and very annoying . . .

Based on the header of your mail:

  User-Agent: Dyne.org Webmail

and

  List-Id: "The first mailinglist after debianfork.org" 
  List-Unsubscribe: ,
   
  List-Archive: 
  List-Post: 
  List-Help: 
  List-Subscribe: ,
   

I suspect that the Dyne.org Webmail client is "helpfully" converting the
above List-*: header to the gunk you get to see.

Based on that gunk and a quick search on rcmail.command, I further
suspect that that User-Agent: is really [Roundcube Webmail][0]

  https://github.com/roundcube/roundcubemail

It then looks like that webmail client (or a plugin) doesn't quite grok
the content of the List-* headers anymore.  This could be due to changed
List-*: header content for Dyne.org mailing lists or an update of their
webmail client (or a plugin for it).  Looks like a Dyne.org inflicted
problem to me.

I know this doesn't solve your problem but hope it points a finger in
the right direction.

Hope this helps,
--
Olaf Meeuwissen, LPIC-2FSF Associate Member since 2004-01-27
 GnuPG key: F84A2DD9/B3C0 2F47 EA19 64F4 9F13  F43E B8A4 A88A F84A 2DD9
 Support Free Softwarehttps://my.fsf.org/donate
 Join the Free Software Foundation  https://my.fsf.org/join
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Re: [DNG] I wrote IBM

[golinux]

On 2019-10-23 14:56, Hendrik Boom wrote:

On Wed, Oct 23, 2019 at 02:06:32PM -0500, goli...@devuan.org wrote:

On 2019-10-22 23:20, Steve Litt wrote:
> On Mon, 14 Oct 2019 11:44:11 -0500
> goli...@devuan.org wrote:
>

This email does not address the content of this email but rather 
something

very strange that came through in the header:

https://dev1galaxy.org/files/cruft.png

This started with the above email from Steve.  Even stranger is that 
all
email in my Inbox from the creation of this account now has that mass 
of
text in the header. It is not happening to my @dyne account even 
though I
assume they are on the same server. Nor in this happening to folders 
with
saved email. I have not consciously changed any settings though cannot 
rule
out some random unintended click. Does anyone have insight as to what 
is

going on?  Rick Moen . . . you around?

Thanks,
golinux

---

Here's the complete header.  Problem is under "Precedence: list":


And I don't see it in this header nor in the header on top of this 
message.

Presumably it was in what you sent, but not in what I received.
Puzzling.

-- hendrik



This is what arrived with your above reply:


FromHendrik Boom   Add contact
Sender  Dng   Add contact
To  dng@lists.dyne.org  Add contact
DateToday 14:56
Mailing List	mailto:dng-requ...@lists.dyne.org?subject=help; 
target="_blank" onclick="return 
rcmail.command('compose','dng-requ...@lists.dyne.org?subject=help',this)">Helphref="https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng; 
target="_blank">Subscribehref="https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/dng; 
target="_blank">Unsubscribehref="mailto:dng@lists.dyne.org; target="_blank" onclick="return 
rcmail.command('compose','dng@lists.dyne.org',this)">Posthref="https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/dng/; 
target="_blank">List Archive


All lists on dyne server(s) are suffering from this.  It is a mystery 
and very annoying . . .


golinux
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Re: [DNG] I wrote IBM

[Hendrik Boom]

On Wed, Oct 23, 2019 at 02:06:32PM -0500, goli...@devuan.org wrote:
> On 2019-10-22 23:20, Steve Litt wrote:
> > On Mon, 14 Oct 2019 11:44:11 -0500
> > goli...@devuan.org wrote:
> > 
> 
> This email does not address the content of this email but rather something
> very strange that came through in the header:
> 
> https://dev1galaxy.org/files/cruft.png
> 
> This started with the above email from Steve.  Even stranger is that all
> email in my Inbox from the creation of this account now has that mass of
> text in the header. It is not happening to my @dyne account even though I
> assume they are on the same server. Nor in this happening to folders with
> saved email. I have not consciously changed any settings though cannot rule
> out some random unintended click. Does anyone have insight as to what is
> going on?  Rick Moen . . . you around?
> 
> Thanks,
> golinux
> 
> ---
> 
> Here's the complete header.  Problem is under "Precedence: list":

And I don't see it in this header nor in the header on top of this message.
Presumably it was in what you sent, but not in what I received.
Puzzling.

-- hendrik

> 
> Return-Path: 
> Delivered-To: goli...@devuan.org
> Received: from tupac3.dyne.org (localhost [127.0.0.1])
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> Message-ID: <20191023002007.79fd1...@mydesk.domain.cxm>
> In-Reply-To: <09adad359c9ffea846260bb5662e9...@devuan.org>
> References: <20190928223255.20b85...@mydesk.domain.cxm>
> 
> 
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Re: [DNG] I wrote IBM

[golinux]

On 2019-10-23 14:06, goli...@devuan.org wrote:

On 2019-10-22 23:20, Steve Litt wrote:

On Mon, 14 Oct 2019 11:44:11 -0500
goli...@devuan.org wrote:



This email does not address the content of this email but rather
something very strange that came through in the header:

https://dev1galaxy.org/files/cruft.png

This started with the above email from Steve.  Even stranger is that
all email in my Inbox from the creation of this account now has that
mass of text in the header. It is not happening to my @dyne account
even though I assume they are on the same server. Nor in this
happening to folders with saved email. I have not consciously changed
any settings though cannot rule out some random unintended click. Does
anyone have insight as to what is going on?  Rick Moen . . . you
around?

Thanks,
golinux



Just noticed that it is also affecting devuan-b...@lists.dyne.org too.  
So on all email coming from dyne lists.

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Re: [DNG] I wrote IBM

[golinux]

On 2019-10-22 23:20, Steve Litt wrote:

On Mon, 14 Oct 2019 11:44:11 -0500
goli...@devuan.org wrote:



This email does not address the content of this email but rather 
something very strange that came through in the header:


https://dev1galaxy.org/files/cruft.png

This started with the above email from Steve.  Even stranger is that all 
email in my Inbox from the creation of this account now has that mass of 
text in the header. It is not happening to my @dyne account even though 
I assume they are on the same server. Nor in this happening to folders 
with saved email. I have not consciously changed any settings though 
cannot rule out some random unintended click. Does anyone have insight 
as to what is going on?  Rick Moen . . . you around?


Thanks,
golinux

---

Here's the complete header.  Problem is under "Precedence: list":

Return-Path: 
Delivered-To: goli...@devuan.org
Received: from tupac3.dyne.org (localhost [127.0.0.1])
by vm6.ganeti.dyne.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE357F60BF0;
Wed, 23 Oct 2019 06:20:14 +0200 (CEST)
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dkim=fail reason="signature verification failed" (1024-bit key; 
unprotected) header.d=troubleshooters.com header.i=@troubleshooters.com 
header.b="UGcbnW9L";

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bits))

(No client certificate requested)
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aBac+stK2DIwJEAydVLgaoH1CvmqF8Olz4RRK018=
X-Originating-IP: [72.188.224.222]
Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2019 00:20:07 -0400
From: Steve Litt 
To: dng@lists.dyne.org
Message-ID: <20191023002007.79fd1...@mydesk.domain.cxm>
In-Reply-To: <09adad359c9ffea846260bb5662e9...@devuan.org>
References: <20190928223255.20b85...@mydesk.domain.cxm>



<6dfbfcc0-68ad-9a96-6aa3-c56416091...@gikaku.com>

<20191001204201.65e7d...@mydesk.domain.cxm>
<20191007022834.1d4e8e1a@viridi>
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<20191009022534.33efd...@mydesk.domain.cxm>
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<20191010144906.067d5...@mydesk.domain.cxm>
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Subject: Re: [DNG] I wrote IBM
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Re: [DNG] I wrote IBM

[Steve Litt]

On Mon, 14 Oct 2019 11:44:11 -0500
goli...@devuan.org wrote:

> On 2019-10-10 13:52, goli...@devuan.org wrote:
> > On 2019-10-10 13:49, Steve Litt wrote:  
> >> On Fri, 11 Oct 2019 05:16:19 +1100
> >> Andrew McGlashan via Dng  wrote:
> >>   
> >>> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> >>> Hash: SHA256
> >>> 
> >>> Hi Steve,
> >>> 
> >>> First off, I fully support your initiative.
> >>> 
> >>> On 9/10/19 5:25 pm, Steve Litt wrote:  
> >>> > I can't give you proof, but I can give a strong piece of
> >>> > evidence:
> >>> >
> >>> > http://asay.blogspot.com/2006/10/interview-with-red-hat-cto-brian.html
> >>> >  
> >>> I think that is a very long bough you are drawing here; I wanted
> >>> to see the proof and be able to use it to advantage in arguing
> >>> for non systemd pollution of systems ... but it was quite weak.
> >>> We need [and,
> >>> I believe, already have much stronger arguments than that
> >>> interview gave for sure.  
> >> 
> >> If we already have such stronger arguments, for gosh sakes please 
> >> reveal
> >> them. It seems like most Geeks pick Occam's Razor over "Follow the
> >> money" every time.
> >> 
> >> SteveT
> >>   
> > 
> > The fiddling continues while Rome burns . . .
> > 
> > (golinux ducks and runs)  
> 
> Sorry to dredge this thread up again but this link arrived to my
> inbox this morning.  Sadly, I have no doubt that even this letter
> will be ignored and business as usual will win the day:
> 
> https://dissidentvoice.org/2019/10/bayer-shareholders-put-health-and-nature-first-and-stop-funding-this-company/
> 
> Just sayin' . . .
> 
> golinux

*You* have no doubt this letter will be ignored. There were people who
had no doubt that the North American colonists could not get rid of the
British, or that Gandhi and his followers couldn't kick out the
British, or that slavery was forever, or that Apartheid would never be
overthrown, or that the Soviet Union was forever. And our history books
sing the praises of Washington, Gandhi, Lincoln, Mandella, and Reagan.
But before the big name change-forcers, there were little people
writing letters and organizing protests.

These movements take time. If we start now, the solution will arrive
too late, but earlier than if we start next year.

The cigarette companies are all on the run in the United States. Back
in 1980, I didn't think I'd live to see the day when they didn't pedal
their dope with impunity. Then in 1986 I saw my first no-smoking Burger
King. At that point I had been speaking to smokers in restaurants, one
on one, for fifteen years, telling them what that cigarette they held
right under my nose did to the taste of my meal (they never held it
under their own noses, cigarette smokers back then were a smug and
entitled bunch). Did Congress notice my little chats with smokers and
pass a law? Not hardly likely. But I really think that other
non-smokers saw what I did and copied it, and others copied them, and
after a couple decades it added up.

I can show you at least fifty messages from folks who had no doubt that
systemd was a done deal, and later that some folks called the VUAs were
bluffing blowhards who could never stand up to the $23 billion Red Hat
juggernaut. And yet here we are, and we are not alone.

In the 1990's into the very early 2000's, everyone who was anyone had
no doubt that Free Software could not survive in the
Microsoft-monopolized software universe. "C'mon Steve, you get what you
pay for: Linux is just a toy for geeks and socialists. A homogeneous
software environment is the best, and we've standardized on Microsoft.
Get over it." But we wrote letters, we spoke at Microsoft-centric
computer clubs, we passed out flyers and free Linux CDs, we wrote
articles, we talked it up, and today the majority of our technological
backbone is built on Free Software.

"No doubt" is a risky position to hold. I'll finish this email with
something my Grandfather told my Dad when my Dad was a wee little
teenager:

"Son, some day you'll be in a bar, a guy will sit next to you and try
to bet you ten bucks that the jack of spades will jump out of the deck
in his hand, urinate in your ear, and jump back into the deck. Son,
don't take that bet, or you'll be out ten bucks and have an ear full of
urine."

SteveT
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Re: [DNG] I wrote IBM

[golinux]

On 2019-10-10 13:52, goli...@devuan.org wrote:

On 2019-10-10 13:49, Steve Litt wrote:

On Fri, 11 Oct 2019 05:16:19 +1100
Andrew McGlashan via Dng  wrote:


-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA256

Hi Steve,

First off, I fully support your initiative.

On 9/10/19 5:25 pm, Steve Litt wrote:
> I can't give you proof, but I can give a strong piece of evidence:
>
> http://asay.blogspot.com/2006/10/interview-with-red-hat-cto-brian.html
>
I think that is a very long bough you are drawing here; I wanted to
see the proof and be able to use it to advantage in arguing for non
systemd pollution of systems ... but it was quite weak.  We need 
[and,

I believe, already have much stronger arguments than that interview
gave for sure.


If we already have such stronger arguments, for gosh sakes please 
reveal

them. It seems like most Geeks pick Occam's Razor over "Follow the
money" every time.

SteveT



The fiddling continues while Rome burns . . .

(golinux ducks and runs)


Sorry to dredge this thread up again but this link arrived to my inbox 
this morning.  Sadly, I have no doubt that even this letter will be 
ignored and business as usual will win the day:


https://dissidentvoice.org/2019/10/bayer-shareholders-put-health-and-nature-first-and-stop-funding-this-company/

Just sayin' . . .

golinux










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Re: [DNG] I wrote IBM

[golinux]

On 2019-10-10 13:49, Steve Litt wrote:

On Fri, 11 Oct 2019 05:16:19 +1100
Andrew McGlashan via Dng  wrote:


-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA256

Hi Steve,

First off, I fully support your initiative.

On 9/10/19 5:25 pm, Steve Litt wrote:
> I can't give you proof, but I can give a strong piece of evidence:
>
> http://asay.blogspot.com/2006/10/interview-with-red-hat-cto-brian.html
>
I think that is a very long bough you are drawing here; I wanted to
see the proof and be able to use it to advantage in arguing for non
systemd pollution of systems ... but it was quite weak.  We need [and,
I believe, already have much stronger arguments than that interview
gave for sure.


If we already have such stronger arguments, for gosh sakes please 
reveal

them. It seems like most Geeks pick Occam's Razor over "Follow the
money" every time.

SteveT



The fiddling continues while Rome burns . . .

(golinux ducks and runs)
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Re: [DNG] I wrote IBM

[Steve Litt]

On Fri, 11 Oct 2019 05:16:19 +1100
Andrew McGlashan via Dng  wrote:

> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA256
> 
> Hi Steve,
> 
> First off, I fully support your initiative.
> 
> On 9/10/19 5:25 pm, Steve Litt wrote:
> > I can't give you proof, but I can give a strong piece of evidence:
> > 
> > http://asay.blogspot.com/2006/10/interview-with-red-hat-cto-brian.html
> >   
> I think that is a very long bough you are drawing here; I wanted to
> see the proof and be able to use it to advantage in arguing for non
> systemd pollution of systems ... but it was quite weak.  We need [and,
> I believe, already have much stronger arguments than that interview
> gave for sure.

If we already have such stronger arguments, for gosh sakes please reveal
them. It seems like most Geeks pick Occam's Razor over "Follow the
money" every time.

SteveT

Steve Litt
Author: The Key to Everyday Excellence
http://www.troubleshooters.com/key
Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/stevelitt

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Re: [DNG] I wrote IBM

[Andrew McGlashan via Dng]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA256

Hi Steve,

First off, I fully support your initiative.

On 9/10/19 5:25 pm, Steve Litt wrote:
> I can't give you proof, but I can give a strong piece of evidence:
> 
> http://asay.blogspot.com/2006/10/interview-with-red-hat-cto-brian.html
> 
I think that is a very long bough you are drawing here; I wanted to
see the proof and be able to use it to advantage in arguing for non
systemd pollution of systems ... but it was quite weak.  We need [and,
I believe, already have much stronger arguments than that interview
gave for sure.

Cheers
AndrewM
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-

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-END PGP SIGNATURE-
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Re: [DNG] I wrote IBM

[Steve Litt]

On Tue, 8 Oct 2019 19:40:46 +0200
Bernard Rosset via Dng  wrote:


> Although all very interesting theories (even some being plausible),
> and although I am inclined to believe any (*any*!) explanation, even
> the oddest, as to *why* this systemd monstruosity exists, all I see
> here is conjecture and/or opinions presented as facts.
> 
> I would gladly take anything that would connect any wild theory to 
> something remotely looking like a fact or a proof when talking about 
> knowledge.

I can't give you proof, but I can give a strong piece of evidence:
 
http://asay.blogspot.com/2006/10/interview-with-red-hat-cto-brian.html

Search for the word "complexity", read that paragraph and the next one.
These two paragraphs, written by the then CTO of Redhat, shows that
Redhat had a motive to complexify Linux. Because of their $20.5
billion market capitalization, they obviously had the means to
complexify. And because they controlled the second most influential
distro, they had the opportunity to complexify, if they could get
Debian and Ubuntu to take the bait.

Somebody mentioned that Redhat wanted to morph Linux into their desired
image so there would be only one Linux and Redhat would be its expert.
I find that perfectly believeable, and it isn't mutually exclusive with
their wanting to inject complexity to keep their trainers and
consultants busy.

Circling back, IBM very well might have different plans, and if so, a
few hundred letters to IBM might things go quicker.

SteveT

Steve Litt
Author: The Key to Everyday Excellence
http://www.troubleshooters.com/key
Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/stevelitt

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Re: [DNG] I wrote IBM

[Steve Litt]

On Tue, 8 Oct 2019 18:39:19 -0400
Dan Purgert  wrote:

> On Oct 01, 2019, Steve Litt wrote:
> >  [...]
> > [1] In 2014 I probably had almost as many supporters on Debian-User
> > as haters, but my supporters all left, leaving only the haters.  
> 
> I don't hate you, and technically am subscribed to debian-user ... 
> 

:-)  One counterexample disproves an absolute statement :-). Allow
me a slight restatement ...

... most of my supporters left, leaving mostly the haters.

SteveT

Steve Litt
Author: The Key to Everyday Excellence
http://www.troubleshooters.com/key
Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/stevelitt

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Re: [DNG] I wrote IBM

[Dan Purgert]

On Oct 01, 2019, Steve Litt wrote:
>  [...]
> [1] In 2014 I probably had almost as many supporters on Debian-User as
> haters, but my supporters all left, leaving only the haters.

I don't hate you, and technically am subscribed to debian-user ... 

-- 
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Re: [DNG] I wrote IBM

[Bernard Rosset via Dng]

The facts with systemd is this. RedHat's business model is to sell
support for their OS. Only problem is that Linux is pretty stable on
it's own. No problems means no support money. That's why they must
replace a perfectly good init system that's worked perfectly for
multiple decades with something that's got over 1000 bugs in the
tracker alone and handles thing like dns resolution. This isn't even
about features. If it was they'd be using something like OpenRC which
does pretty much all the same process management systemd does without
all the RCEs and scope creep.



RedHat's aims have not changed from when they first introduced SystemD
and they are achieving them on target which is why IBM bought in.
It is to become the only Distro regardless of name, in effect
the SystemD Operating System.

By forcing the same packages and package versions by tight integration
with SystemD (Apache2, BIND9, dhcpcd5, etc. etc.) then all Linux Distros
will fall into the scope of RedHat Support business model and make
everyone potential clients regardless of who the packager was.

I thought all this was public knowledge


Although all very interesting theories (even some being plausible), and 
although I am inclined to believe any (*any*!) explanation, even the 
oddest, as to *why* this systemd monstruosity exists, all I see here is 
conjecture and/or opinions presented as facts.


I would gladly take anything that would connect any wild theory to 
something remotely looking like a fact or a proof when talking about 
knowledge.



So Devs, this is one good reason NOT to submit patches to Debian.
Unfortunately, all the other Devs in the world not here either don't
care, or have a vested interest in (work for) IBM\Redhat.


Sometimes evil intent can be explained by mere ignorance. Most people 
out there won't take the time about how/why/where they do something as 
"trivial" as packaging some code, which is a "side" activity to the 
"real core": the software code.


That is where propaganda (as in "the spreading of ideas, information, or 
rumor for the purpose of helping or injuring an institution, a cause, or 
a person") kicks in, to help spread the word of Devuan's existence, and 
the underlying principles at work.


Poettering fans out there negate the very principle of the existence of 
"init freedom" and are very vocal about it... That is *miles* away from 
any elaborate grand scheme about anything, and this fight is already 
hard to win.


Bernard Rosset
https://rosset.net/
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Re: [DNG] I wrote IBM

[g4sra via Dng]

No the intent is not to infest GNU/Linux with bugs.
RedHat's aims have not changed from when they first introduced SystemD
and they are achieving them on target which is why IBM bought in. 

It is to become the only Distro regardless of name, in effect
the SystemD Operating System. Canonical had been angling for
the same thing for years with its "one interface for all devices"
with their push for total GUI control.

By forcing the same packages and package versions by tight integration
with SystemD (Apache2, BIND9, dhcpcd5, etc. etc.) then all Linux Distros
will fall into the scope of RedHat Support business model and make
everyone potential clients regardless of who the packager was.

I thought all this was public knowledge


If developers continue to contribute to their packages after they
are absorbed by SystemD (instead of forking as Mysql/Mariadb
OpenOffice\LibreOffice did) then Redhat will win and GNU/Linux will
no longer be.

So Devs, this is one good reason NOT to submit patches to Debian.
Unfortunately, all the other Devs in the world not here either don't
care, or have a vested interest in (work for) IBM\Redhat.

> 
> The facts with systemd is this. RedHat's business model is to sell
> support for their OS. Only problem is that Linux is pretty stable on
> it's own. No problems means no support money. That's why they must
> replace a perfectly good init system that's worked perfectly for
> multiple decades with something that's got over 1000 bugs in the
> tracker alone and handles thing like dns resolution. This isn't even
> about features. If it was they'd be using something like OpenRC which
> does pretty much all the same process management systemd does without
> all the RCEs and scope creep.
> 
> 

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Re: [DNG] I wrote IBM

[tom]

On Tue, 1 Oct 2019 20:42:01 -0400
Steve Litt  wrote:

> On Tue, 1 Oct 2019 18:01:11 +0300
> Dimitris via Dng  wrote:
> 
> > of similar crap.. (even did so for nazis.)
> 
> Hi Dimitris,
> 
> I'd like to ask you a favor. Could you please no longer mention the
> IBM->nazi connection?
> 
> The IBM-nazi cooperation happened in the 1930's and 1940's, and isn't
> relevant to IBM's 2019 like or dislike of systemd or willingness or
> 2019 unwillingness to listen to letters. What making the nazi
> connection on the list is make things more inflammatory.
> 
> Your point, which I believe is that it's hopeless to write letters to
> IBM, can be made without mentioning nazis.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Steve
>  
> Steve Litt
> Author: The Key to Everyday Excellence
> http://www.troubleshooters.com/key
> Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/stevelitt
> 
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The facts with systemd is this. RedHat's business model is to sell
support for their OS. Only problem is that Linux is pretty stable on
it's own. No problems means no support money. That's why they must
replace a perfectly good init system that's worked perfectly for
multiple decades with something that's got over 1000 bugs in the
tracker alone and handles thing like dns resolution. This isn't even
about features. If it was they'd be using something like OpenRC which
does pretty much all the same process management systemd does without
all the RCEs and scope creep.


-- 
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Re: [DNG] I wrote IBM

[Eric Pozharski]

On Tue, Oct 01, 2019 at 02:58:18PM +0200, John Crisp via Dng wrote:
> On Mon, 30 Sep 2019 19:34:15 -0400
> Steve Litt  wrote:

> > Bothering?
> > 
> > It's their job to receive letters from the public, and any half way
> > smart business values feedback.
*SKIP*
> Steves letter may have no effect, but there is nothing criminal in his
> actions. Of course companies don't want you to contact them. The
> guilty don't want to answer awkward questions. Does that mean you let
> them get away with it?? Yes, they are run for the shareholders, but
> many of them are pension funds, which is YOUR money. You have a voice.
> Use it.

What suggests that petitioning (appropriate) pension fund is worth
considering too.

*CUT*


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Re: [DNG] I wrote IBM

[Steve Litt]

On Tue, 1 Oct 2019 18:01:11 +0300
Dimitris via Dng  wrote:


> if you wanna petition someone/something, might be better off
> petitioning Debian people/community so as to get fully compatible
> with other init systems, and benefit the whole debian-based
> ecosystem, including Devuan.. 

The preceding is a good idea. I think somebody besides myself should
take charge of your idea, because I despise the Debian project, and
because anyone who has been on the Debian-User mailing list for more
than 5 years despises me.[1]


> i know CTTE decided years ago and
> Devuan was created as an aftermath, but things can change in
> communities. Everyone can speak and be heard there. 

If that's true, it's a change, but your idea is a good one and
certainly worth exploring.

[1] In 2014 I probably had almost as many supporters on Debian-User as
haters, but my supporters all left, leaving only the haters.

SteveT
 
Steve Litt
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http://www.troubleshooters.com/key
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Re: [DNG] I wrote IBM

[Dimitris via Dng]

systemd is JUST a bloated piece of software, and IBM makes/sells tons of
similar crap.. (even did so for nazis.)
personally, i don't mind systemd being around as an option, just don't
want it on systems i manage.
but, that's what init diversity is all about. choices.

now you want to ask IBM for abolishing such a choice, like IBM can/wants
to make it go away.. (Red Hat is still running independently in case
you've missed it..)

if you wanna petition someone/something, might be better off petitioning
Debian people/community so as to get fully compatible with other init
systems, and benefit the whole debian-based ecosystem, including Devuan..
i know CTTE decided years ago and Devuan was created as an aftermath,
but things can change in communities. Everyone can speak and be heard
there. on the contrary, in greedy corp environments, only money makes
the talking, people are dispensable.




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Re: [DNG] I wrote IBM

[Simon Walter]

On 10/1/19 12:57 AM, goli...@devuan.org wrote:
> On 2019-09-30 09:27, Simon Walter wrote:
>> On 9/29/19 12:36 PM, goli...@devuan.org wrote:
>>> Sorry Steve . . . I think this idea is naive, ill-advised and a tactical
>>> error that could have very real, unintended consequences.
>>
>> So that the ignorant among us can understand learn, do you mind telling
>> us why?
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Simon
>>
> 
> History is littered with examples of real harm done to individuals and
> society by "business as usual". Even when there is a substantial body
> count, it can take decades for acknowledgement and restitution. I have
> been there, done that too many times. IMO, a bunch of disgruntled geeks
> moaning about software choices just does not have the leverage needed to
> move a corporate mountain.  However, should enough voices become an
> irritation to said corporate mountain, retaliation could be
> "interesting" . . .

So you consider us "a bunch of disgruntled geeks moaning about software
choices". Do you realize how poorly written and thought-out systemd is?
It's not a choice. It's a liability.

History is also littered with people who successfully wrote an appeal
letter.

> As Bruce noted, Steve has every right to pursue any tactic he chooses
> and I will be the first to congratulate him if he succeeds.  In the
> meantime, I choose to do real work to support alternatives rather than
> tilt at windmills.  :)

Shall I clap? I didn't ask what you were doing. I really wanted to know
why it is a bad idea. You speak with such authority. I thought perhaps
you had some useful information that you could share.

What about a petition? Do you think that is more tame and less likely to
bring "retaliation"?

I honestly would like to know. Because I could see myself putting my
name on a petition.
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Re: [DNG] I wrote IBM

[John Crisp via Dng]

On Mon, 30 Sep 2019 19:34:15 -0400
Steve Litt  wrote:
> 
> Bothering?
> 
> It's their job to receive letters from the public, and any half way
> smart business values feedback.
> 

I was going to reply to some of the other negative replies to Steves
mail, but I then decided that just fuels the problem.

Suggesting better wording for a letter, rather than trying to piss off
the writer, is a much more grown up way of doing things.

Quite frankly if some of the hot air round here was spent on good PR
and lobbying instead of talking nonsense, hyperventilating and
in-fighting, Devuan might be doing somewhat better.

People must wonder sometimes when they read this list. I frequently do.

Getting Devuan used more and trying to beat systemD needs tackling from
LOTS of angles, not just one. Good code alone won't cut it.

The effect of saying "it's all pointless" is just giving in, and you may
just as well let the corps take over government, and forget Devuan.

Steves letter may have no effect, but there is nothing criminal in his
actions. Of course companies don't want you to contact them. The guilty
don't want to answer awkward questions. Does that mean you let them get
away with it?? Yes, they are run for the shareholders, but many of
them are pension funds, which is YOUR money. You have a voice. Use
it.

This should be part of a wider campaign to lobby companies,
and governments too, and should work with other areas in the Devuan org
to promote Devuan. Try and find some professional PR people to help.

That's the way the companies work, because it works.

That's what you should be doing too.

Rgds
John Crisp


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Re: [DNG] I wrote IBM

[Bernard Rosset via Dng]

On 2019-09-30 18:34, Steve Litt wrote:

It's their job to receive letters from the public


Who does "they" refers to, exactly?


and any half way smart business values feedback.


Out from any idealized vision, the question would be: what is the incentive?
From a pragmatic observation of the real world, I would quote those few 
words from golinux:


On 01/10/2019 02:13, goli...@devuan.org wrote:

still they persist.


Big companies persist on their agenda, whatever the (fiducial) cost as 
long as (fiducial) benefits outweight them.


Steve, you talk about values; companies talk about money.

systemd sells well, more & more distro fall to it. Actually, less & less 
major Linux distro have been available out-of-the-box without systemd as 
init system (+ dependencies, where the real pain hides & lies).


Why would Red Hat, ie IBM would see that another way than beeing good 
news? Hegemony, lock-in, monopoly: (tech) giants have been using these 
tactic for ages.


TL; DR
systemd is good for IBM's business. Moar revenue, moar profit. The rest 
is cosmetics.


Now. How/Where does you little email inserts itself into that plan?
Nowhere.

Your idealized, desperate wish to force the way things go round & round 
makes you wish that will have any impact. I would call that being blinded.


As told before, and hinted by many including myself, any energy wishing 
to fight this nightmarish systemd hydra is to provide alternatives, and 
promote them to the general population for the greater good.


You energy & wishes are good, this is fuel. I hope you will understand 
the somewhat knee-jerk reactions you (will) get about writing emails to 
IBM are not against you, but mere incentives to use your fuel to 
promote/make Devuan (better).
Heck, suggesting it to a colleague who seek for a distro to try/use is a 
start, installing it for some family members that will use office 
software for accounting/small business needs, are common possibilities, 
and that coupled with explanations is spreading knowledge.


No-one has any idea on how this war will end. The risk being, systemd 
being tightly coupled with GNU/Linux, its envisioned eventual 
self-induced demise from bloating & controlling every system component 
will hurt GNU/Linux reputation.
I guess the long-term strategy is to say & repeat (& repeat & repeat) 
systemd is a mere component, yet propagating in it like cancer, of 
GNU/Linux systems, showing proof-by-example distro exists without it, 
are stable, maintainable, and remembering people *choice* is the eternal 
fuel for freedom.


Companies have no values. You have no "money" talking point. IBM won't 
listen. IBM does not care about anything but money. Business do not care 
about anything but money. Stop wasting your fuel.


Bernard Rosset
https://rosset.net/
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Re: [DNG] I wrote IBM

[golinux]

On 2019-09-30 18:34, Steve Litt wrote:


It's their job to receive letters from the public, and any half way
smart business values feedback.



Really? What planet are you living on?!!  Monsanto won't close it down 
after hundreds of lawsuits and millions (billions) of $$$ in settlements 
for injury from PCBs in Anniston to Roundup and non-hodgkin lymphoma and 
still they persist. Maybe the oil and gas industry while the icecaps 
melt and oceans rise?  The beef and soy industries while the Amazon 
burns?  It's the bottom line, baby!!  When I give feedback about a 
product, they often buy my goodwill with coupons.  Free stuff is the 
cost of doing business.  Does it make a difference?  Probably not . . .  
Currently the opportunity to offer feedback is often behind an email 
paywall to feed surveillance capitalism with your personal data.  It's 
very hard to find a phone number for customer service anymore . . .


Sorry for the OT rant.

golinux
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Re: [DNG] I wrote IBM

[Steve Litt]

On Sun, 29 Sep 2019 14:39:27 +0200
Hans Kramer  wrote:

> On 29.09.19 05:36, goli...@devuan.org wrote:
> 
> > Sorry Steve . . . I think this idea is naive, ill-advised and a
> > tactical error that could have very real, unintended consequences.
> > I do hope that neither Devuan nor s6 was mentioned in the letter
> > that you sent. 
> 
> I don't get that as well, I mean - who cares about the business model
> if IBM / Red Hat? I can understand your motivation, we all know that
> systemd sucks, but bothering people won't make this much better. They
> may need to find this out by themselves. 

Bothering?

It's their job to receive letters from the public, and any half way
smart business values feedback.

SteveT
 
Steve Litt
Author: The Key to Everyday Excellence
http://www.troubleshooters.com/key
Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/stevelitt

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Re: [DNG] I wrote IBM

[Adrian Zaugg]

Hi all

Steve's initiative can in deed have some good effect and it's normal
political work he initiated. Nothing to blame him for! There can be
other than technical solutions to the problems that systemd imposed.

Regards, Adrian.
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Re: [DNG] I wrote IBM

[Hans Kramer]

On 29.09.19 05:36, goli...@devuan.org wrote:

> Sorry Steve . . . I think this idea is naive, ill-advised and a tactical 
> error that could have very real, unintended consequences. I do hope that 
> neither Devuan nor s6 was mentioned in the letter that you sent.
> 

I don't get that as well, I mean - who cares about the business model if IBM / 
Red Hat? I can understand your motivation, we all know that systemd sucks, but 
bothering people won't make this much better. They may need to find this out by 
themselves. 

BR
Hans
-- 
Hans Kramer
Linux Consultant & Trainer
Mail: kra...@b1-systems.de

B1 Systems GmbH
Osterfeldstraße 7 / 85088 Vohburg / http://www.b1-systems.de
GF: Ralph Dehner / Unternehmenssitz: Vohburg / AG: Ingolstadt, HRB 3537



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Re: [DNG] I wrote IBM

[golinux]

On 2019-09-30 09:27, Simon Walter wrote:

On 9/29/19 12:36 PM, goli...@devuan.org wrote:
Sorry Steve . . . I think this idea is naive, ill-advised and a 
tactical

error that could have very real, unintended consequences.


So that the ignorant among us can understand learn, do you mind telling
us why?

Thanks,

Simon



History is littered with examples of real harm done to individuals and 
society by "business as usual". Even when there is a substantial body 
count, it can take decades for acknowledgement and restitution. I have 
been there, done that too many times. IMO, a bunch of disgruntled geeks 
moaning about software choices just does not have the leverage needed to 
move a corporate mountain.  However, should enough voices become an 
irritation to said corporate mountain, retaliation could be 
"interesting" . . .


As Bruce noted, Steve has every right to pursue any tactic he chooses 
and I will be the first to congratulate him if he succeeds.  In the 
meantime, I choose to do real work to support alternatives rather than 
tilt at windmills.  :)


golinux
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Re: [DNG] I wrote IBM

[Simon Walter]

On 9/29/19 12:36 PM, goli...@devuan.org wrote:
> Sorry Steve . . . I think this idea is naive, ill-advised and a tactical
> error that could have very real, unintended consequences.

So that the ignorant among us can understand learn, do you mind telling
us why?

Thanks,

Simon
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Re: [DNG] I wrote IBM

[Bruce Perens via Dng]

Steve has a perfect right to do this if he wants. However I don't believe
it's going to be effective, since red hat will continue to operate
independently, so it has the same management as before.

I think the most instructive thing I've seen so far is the fact that SpaceX
does not use it in their custom distribution.

On Sun, Sep 29, 2019, 17:46 Steve Litt  wrote:

> On Sun, 29 Sep 2019 20:54:09 +0200
> Evilham via Dng  wrote:
>
> > On dg., set. 29 2019, goli...@devuan.org wrote:
> >
> > > On 2019-09-28 21:32, Steve Litt wrote:
> > >> Hi all,
> > >>
> > >> I just wrote IBM asking them to reconsider systemd, given that
> > >> IBM's
> > >> business model is different from the old Red Hat's.
>
> [big snip]
>
> > +1. That's shy of stalking,
>
> "Just shy of stalking" is hyperbole way over the top. It's also
> pretty insulting.
>
> Both people I wrote are public figures, both are high officers in a
> corporation, and neither is my current or ex lover, in reality or in my
> mind. I'm writing them about business, not about some relationship I
> think I have with them. I neither contacted them outside of their
> business, nor followed or snooped on them outside their business.
>
> There's a long and rich tradition of people writing the CEO or other
> high officers. The usual result is that somebody is assigned to examine
> the merits of the letter writer.
>
> So if you think what I'm doing is counterproductive, fine, say so
> (which you did in the next sentence) and don't write a letter. But
> don't insult me or other letter writers by putting my action *anywhere*
> on the stalking scale.
>
> SteveT
>
> Steve Litt
> Author: The Key to Everyday Excellence
> http://www.troubleshooters.com/key
> Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/stevelitt
>
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Re: [DNG] I wrote IBM

[Steve Litt]

On Sun, 29 Sep 2019 20:54:09 +0200
Evilham via Dng  wrote:

> On dg., set. 29 2019, goli...@devuan.org wrote:
> 
> > On 2019-09-28 21:32, Steve Litt wrote:  
> >> Hi all,
> >>
> >> I just wrote IBM asking them to reconsider systemd, given that 
> >> IBM's
> >> business model is different from the old Red Hat's.

[big snip]

> +1. That's shy of stalking, 

"Just shy of stalking" is hyperbole way over the top. It's also
pretty insulting.

Both people I wrote are public figures, both are high officers in a
corporation, and neither is my current or ex lover, in reality or in my
mind. I'm writing them about business, not about some relationship I
think I have with them. I neither contacted them outside of their
business, nor followed or snooped on them outside their business.

There's a long and rich tradition of people writing the CEO or other
high officers. The usual result is that somebody is assigned to examine
the merits of the letter writer.

So if you think what I'm doing is counterproductive, fine, say so
(which you did in the next sentence) and don't write a letter. But
don't insult me or other letter writers by putting my action *anywhere*
on the stalking scale.

SteveT

Steve Litt
Author: The Key to Everyday Excellence
http://www.troubleshooters.com/key
Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/stevelitt

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Re: [DNG] I wrote IBM

[Steve Litt]

On Mon, 30 Sep 2019 00:29:59 +
Aitor  wrote:

> Hi Steve,
> 
> El 29/9/19 a las 2:32, Steve Litt escribió:
> > Hi all,
> >
> > I just wrote IBM asking them to reconsider systemd, given that IBM's
> > business model is different from the old Red Hat's.
> >
> > It took me 3.5 hours: 2 hours to find valid addresses of Todd Moore,
> > VP IBM Open Technologies and Virginia M. Rometty, Chairman,
> > President and CEO of IBM. It then took me 1.5 hours to curate my
> > letter down to 1 page of 12pt type. My letter was to Moore, CC to
> > Rometty.
> >
> > Given the fact that this letter writing campaign involves more than
> > just people in Devuan, and the negative reaction some Devuaners had
> > to this project, I will be serving as the central information point
> > of the letter writing point, accumulating and refining contact
> > information and reporting the successes and failures of writers.
> >
> > I encourage all of you to write IBM. If I'm right and it helps, this
> > would prevent future incompatibilities requiring significant
> > increases in Devuan development effort, just to stay even. If I'm
> > wrong, you lose a couple hours writing a letter. The web page for
> > this letter writing campaign is as follows:
> >
> > http://troubleshooters.com/ibm_systemd/
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > SteveT  
> 
> It would not be out of context to discuss about dbus...
> 
> I can't understand neither the dependency of most of the network 
> managers on dbus,
> nor the dependency of the (alsa | pulseaudio) controls on it.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Aitor.

I think you're right, but removing or decoupling dbus would be a much
tougher sell. Dbus is much more metastasized into the rest of the
software than systemd is (yet). And while nobody enthusiastically likes
dbus, very few absolutely hate it. I felt I'd get farther with just one
precision ask.

Of course, that doesn't prevent others for asking about dbus.

SteveT
 
Steve Litt
Author: The Key to Everyday Excellence
http://www.troubleshooters.com/key
Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/stevelitt

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Re: [DNG] I wrote IBM

[Aitor]

Hi Steve,

El 29/9/19 a las 2:32, Steve Litt escribió:

Hi all,

I just wrote IBM asking them to reconsider systemd, given that IBM's
business model is different from the old Red Hat's.

It took me 3.5 hours: 2 hours to find valid addresses of Todd Moore,
VP IBM Open Technologies and Virginia M. Rometty, Chairman, President
and CEO of IBM. It then took me 1.5 hours to curate my letter down to 1
page of 12pt type. My letter was to Moore, CC to Rometty.

Given the fact that this letter writing campaign involves more than
just people in Devuan, and the negative reaction some Devuaners had to
this project, I will be serving as the central information point of the
letter writing point, accumulating and refining contact information and
reporting the successes and failures of writers.

I encourage all of you to write IBM. If I'm right and it helps, this
would prevent future incompatibilities requiring significant increases
in Devuan development effort, just to stay even. If I'm wrong, you lose
a couple hours writing a letter. The web page for this letter writing
campaign is as follows:

http://troubleshooters.com/ibm_systemd/

Thanks,

SteveT


It would not be out of context to discuss about dbus...

I can't understand neither the dependency of most of the network 
managers on dbus,

nor the dependency of the (alsa | pulseaudio) controls on it.

Cheers,

Aitor.



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Re: [DNG] I wrote IBM

[Evilham via Dng]

On dg., set. 29 2019, goli...@devuan.org wrote:


On 2019-09-28 21:32, Steve Litt wrote:

Hi all,

I just wrote IBM asking them to reconsider systemd, given that 
IBM's

business model is different from the old Red Hat's.



[cut]



I encourage all of you to write IBM. If I'm right and it helps, 
this
would prevent future incompatibilities requiring significant 
increases
in Devuan development effort, just to stay even. If I'm wrong, 
you lose
a couple hours writing a letter. The web page for this letter 
writing

campaign is as follows:



Sorry Steve . . . I think this idea is naive, ill-advised and a 
tactical
error that could have very real, unintended consequences. I do 
hope that

neither Devuan nor s6 was mentioned in the letter that you sent.

golinux



+1. That's shy of stalking, does nothing productive to move 
forward your goal and, indeed, is counterproductive mid and 
long-term.

--
Evilham
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Re: [DNG] I wrote IBM

[golinux]

On 2019-09-28 21:32, Steve Litt wrote:

Hi all,

I just wrote IBM asking them to reconsider systemd, given that IBM's
business model is different from the old Red Hat's.



[cut]



I encourage all of you to write IBM. If I'm right and it helps, this
would prevent future incompatibilities requiring significant increases
in Devuan development effort, just to stay even. If I'm wrong, you lose
a couple hours writing a letter. The web page for this letter writing
campaign is as follows:



Sorry Steve . . . I think this idea is naive, ill-advised and a tactical 
error that could have very real, unintended consequences. I do hope that 
neither Devuan nor s6 was mentioned in the letter that you sent.


golinux
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