Re: [DNG] Systemd-free => Gnome-free? [Was: Re: Gnome?

[golinux]

On 2017-09-27 12:05, John Franklin wrote:


Nor is botbot an obvious Devuan resource.  It is not mentioned
anywhere on www.devuan.org, [1] so why would there be a reasonable
expectation to even *think* to look there?

jf



The botbot archives are indeed linked from the devuan.org index page in 
the section copied below.  "Publicly archived" is a link to the botbot 
logs.  I agree that it is rather subtle and easily overlooked.


Communication Channels

Participate in our web forum : dev1galaxy.org
Follow us on Twitter: @DevuanOrg
Subscribe to our mailing lists:
Announce to receive official announcements
DNG to discuss Devuan specific issues
->Join the #devuan IRC channel (publicly archived)<---
File a bug report: https://bugs.devuan.org
Send a private email to free...@devuan.org

But I see that link is missing from the Community page.  I will fix that 
presently.


It is also in the topic for the #devuan channel:

Topic for #devuan is: Recent (2017-05-25): Jessie 1.0.0 stable release 
http://ur1.ca/qxaa5  ||  This is the Devuan https://devuan.org/ 
discussion channel (logged at https://botbot.me/freenode/devuan - with 
useful 'search') . . .


golinux



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Re: [DNG] Systemd-free => Gnome-free? [Was: Re: Gnome?

[John Franklin]

> On Sep 21, 2017, at 12:44 AM, goli...@dyne.org wrote:
> 
> On 2017-09-20 22:36, John Franklin wrote:
>>> On Sep 20, 2017, at 10:59 PM, goli...@dyne.org wrote:
>>> From a search for 'network-manager' in the botbot logs.
>>> https://botbot.me/freenode/devuan/search/?q=network-manager
>>> Was that so hard?
>> Yes, it is.  And condescending.
>> Why would someone look at the IRC logs of a site that they've never
>> heard of to find out about something in the Jessie and Ascii
>> repositories?
>> jf
> 
> Because botbot logs the #devuan irc channel where a LOT of questions are 
> answered and or solved.  IMO every Devuan user should have it bookmarked.  It 
> is mentioned frequently on all Devuan communication channels - those 
> references are pretty hard to miss - and it should be one of the first 
> resources to tap.  Think of it as a variation on "give a man a fish/teach a 
> man to fish" . . .  Of course, checking the repository as you did is the most 
> logical place to look for a package.

I have seen projects suggest IRC channels as a place to ask a question, because 
the people who hang out there tend to be knowledgable.  I have *never* seen a 
project suggest searching IRC logs for answers, because IRC tends to ramble and 
finding a coherent answer is difficult at best.

Nor is botbot an obvious Devuan resource.  It is not mentioned anywhere on 
www.devuan.org, [1] so why would there be a reasonable expectation to even 
*think* to look there?

jf
[1] 
https://www.google.com/search?q=botbot+site%3Adevuan.org=botbot+site%3Adevuan.org
-- 
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Re: [DNG] Systemd-free => Gnome-free? [Was: Re: Gnome?

[Olaf Meeuwissen]

goli...@dyne.org writes:

> On 2017-09-20 22:36, John Franklin wrote:
>>> On Sep 20, 2017, at 10:59 PM, goli...@dyne.org wrote:
>>>
>>> From a search for 'network-manager' in the botbot logs.
>>> https://botbot.me/freenode/devuan/search/?q=network-manager
>>> Was that so hard?
>>
>> Yes, it is.  And condescending.
>>
>> Why would someone look at the IRC logs of a site that they've never
>> heard of to find out about something in the Jessie and Ascii
>> repositories?
>>
>> jf
>
> Because botbot logs the #devuan irc channel where a LOT of questions are
> answered and or solved.  IMO every Devuan user should have it
> bookmarked.  It is mentioned frequently on all Devuan communication
> channels - those references are pretty hard to miss - and it should be
> one of the first resources to tap.  Think of it as a variation on "give
> a man a fish/teach a man to fish" . . .  Of course, checking the
> repository as you did is the most logical place to look for a package.

In the "teach a man to fish" department, set up your apt sources.list to
track the Devuan releases you are willing to install from, e.g. jessie
and ascii, and then something like

  sudo apt-get update
  for release in jessie ascii; do
apt-get depends network-manager/$release | grep systemd
  done

Much more authorative and up-to-date than IRC logs.

Hope this helps,
--
Olaf Meeuwissen, LPIC-2FSF Associate Member since 2004-01-27
 GnuPG key: F84A2DD9/B3C0 2F47 EA19 64F4 9F13  F43E B8A4 A88A F84A 2DD9
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 Join the Free Software Foundation  https://my.fsf.org/join
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Re: [DNG] Systemd-free => Gnome-free? [Was: Re: Gnome?

[Rick Moen]

Quoting goli...@dyne.org (goli...@dyne.org):

> Because botbot logs the #devuan irc channel where a LOT of questions
> are answered and or solved.  IMO every Devuan user should have it
> bookmarked.  It is mentioned frequently on all Devuan communication
> channels - those references are pretty hard to miss - and it should
> be one of the first resources to tap.

Nice!  Duly bookmarked https://botbot.me/freenode/devuan/ .
Thank you.

-- 
Cheers,   "Teach a man to make fire, and he will be warm 
Rick Moen for a day.  Set a man on fire, and he will be warm
r...@linuxmafia.com   for the rest of his life."   -- John A. Hrastar
McQ!  (4x80)
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Re: [DNG] Systemd-free => Gnome-free? [Was: Re: Gnome?

[golinux]

On 2017-09-20 22:36, John Franklin wrote:

On Sep 20, 2017, at 10:59 PM, goli...@dyne.org wrote:

From a search for 'network-manager' in the botbot logs.
https://botbot.me/freenode/devuan/search/?q=network-manager
Was that so hard?


Yes, it is.  And condescending.

Why would someone look at the IRC logs of a site that they've never
heard of to find out about something in the Jessie and Ascii
repositories?

jf


Because botbot logs the #devuan irc channel where a LOT of questions are 
answered and or solved.  IMO every Devuan user should have it 
bookmarked.  It is mentioned frequently on all Devuan communication 
channels - those references are pretty hard to miss - and it should be 
one of the first resources to tap.  Think of it as a variation on "give 
a man a fish/teach a man to fish" . . .  Of course, checking the 
repository as you did is the most logical place to look for a package.


golinux


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Re: [DNG] Systemd-free => Gnome-free? [Was: Re: Gnome?

[John Franklin]

> On Sep 20, 2017, at 10:59 PM, goli...@dyne.org wrote:
> 
> From a search for 'network-manager' in the botbot logs.
> https://botbot.me/freenode/devuan/search/?q=network-manager
> Was that so hard?

Yes, it is.  And condescending.

Why would someone look at the IRC logs of a site that they've never heard of to 
find out about something in the Jessie and Ascii repositories?

jf
-- 
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frank...@tux.org
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Re: [DNG] Systemd-free => Gnome-free? [Was: Re: Gnome?

[golinux]

On 2017-09-20 21:47, John Franklin wrote:

On Sep 20, 2017, at 4:25 PM, goli...@dyne.org wrote:

On 2017-09-20 15:09, zap wrote:
The phase “depends on systemd” is being used in two extreme contexts 
here.  The first is a technical context, where “apt-get install 
” fails because of a dependency, and may be trivially fixed 
with different build options.  The second is “fundamentally and 
irreparably depends on systemd.”
For example, Network Manager can be built by removing two systemd 
dependencies from the debian/control file.  It clearly falls in the 
first category.

[Citation required.] What else “depends on systemd”?
jf

I would actually like network manager to have its garbage systemd
dependencies removed.
___


It's already been done



Not in Ascii.

http://bugs.devuan.org/db/13/133.html

Just verified this is still the case.

jf


Maybe the jessie version will work in ASCII?  I have sometimes used pkgs 
from the prior release.


golinux
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Re: [DNG] Systemd-free => Gnome-free? [Was: Re: Gnome?

[golinux]

On 2017-09-20 20:51, zap wrote:

I would actually like network manager to have its garbage systemd

dependencies removed.
___



It's already been done

golinux


In which version of devuan? all of them or just jessie? just curious.



From a search for 'network-manager' in the botbot logs.
https://botbot.me/freenode/devuan/search/?q=network-manager
Was that so hard?

 you can install network-manager without systemd
  0.9.10.0-7+devuan1 in jessie main

Have no idea about the other releases.  You can refine the search on 
botbot or dng or maybe even d1g.


golinux



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Re: [DNG] Systemd-free => Gnome-free? [Was: Re: Gnome?

[John Franklin]

> On Sep 20, 2017, at 4:25 PM, goli...@dyne.org wrote:
> 
> On 2017-09-20 15:09, zap wrote:
>>> The phase “depends on systemd” is being used in two extreme contexts here.  
>>> The first is a technical context, where “apt-get install ” fails 
>>> because of a dependency, and may be trivially fixed with different build 
>>> options.  The second is “fundamentally and irreparably depends on systemd.”
>>> For example, Network Manager can be built by removing two systemd 
>>> dependencies from the debian/control file.  It clearly falls in the first 
>>> category.
>>> [Citation required.] What else “depends on systemd”?
>>> jf
>> I would actually like network manager to have its garbage systemd
>> dependencies removed.
>> ___
> 
> It's already been done
> 

Not in Ascii.

http://bugs.devuan.org/db/13/133.html

Just verified this is still the case.

jf
-- 
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frank...@tux.org
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Re: [DNG] Systemd-free => Gnome-free? [Was: Re: Gnome?

[zap]

I would actually like network manager to have its garbage systemd
>> dependencies removed.
>> ___
>>
>
> It's already been done
>
> golinux
>
In which version of devuan? all of them or just jessie? just curious.

>
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Re: [DNG] Systemd-free => Gnome-free? [Was: Re: Gnome?

[golinux]

On 2017-09-20 15:09, zap wrote:
The phase “depends on systemd” is being used in two extreme contexts 
here.  The first is a technical context, where “apt-get install 
” fails because of a dependency, and may be trivially fixed 
with different build options.  The second is “fundamentally and 
irreparably depends on systemd.”


For example, Network Manager can be built by removing two systemd 
dependencies from the debian/control file.  It clearly falls in the 
first category.


[Citation required.] What else “depends on systemd”?

jf

I would actually like network manager to have its garbage systemd
dependencies removed.
___



It's already been done

golinux


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Re: [DNG] Systemd-free => Gnome-free? [Was: Re: Gnome?

[John Franklin]

> On Sep 20, 2017, at 11:35 AM, Alessandro Selli  
> wrote:
> 
> On Wed, 20 Sep 2017 at 11:19:51 -0400
> John Franklin  wrote:
> 
> 
>> Your premise that “Gnome depends on systemd” is false.  The current
>> *packages* may depend on systemd, but I’ll bet they can be patched and
>> rebuilt without systemd.
>> 
>> Give it a try. Please build the gnome packages from scratch and report back
>> with where compilation fails.  Better yet, file bugs with patches to create
>> a set of Gnome packages that don’t depend on systemd.
> 
>  If having Gnome work without systemd entails patching it's sources and
> recompiling the whole bunch of packages, then you just proved Gnome does
> indeed depend on systemd, not just on the package level, but on the code
> level.

The phase “depends on systemd” is being used in two extreme contexts here.  The 
first is a technical context, where “apt-get install ” fails because 
of a dependency, and may be trivially fixed with different build options.  The 
second is “fundamentally and irreparably depends on systemd.”

For example, Network Manager can be built by removing two systemd dependencies 
from the debian/control file.  It clearly falls in the first category.

[Citation required.] What else “depends on systemd”?

jf
-- 
John Franklin
frank...@tux.org



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Re: [DNG] Systemd-free => Gnome-free? [Was: Re: Gnome?

[John Franklin]

> On Sep 20, 2017, at 11:33 AM, J. Fahrner  wrote:
> 
> Am 2017-09-20 17:19, schrieb John Franklin:
> 
>> Your premise that “Gnome depends on systemd” is false.  The current
>> *packages* may depend on systemd, but I’ll bet they can be patched and
>> rebuilt without systemd.
>> Give it a try. Please build the gnome packages from scratch and report
>> back with where compilation fails.  Better yet, file bugs with patches
>> to create a set of Gnome packages that don’t depend on systemd.
> 
> Who should do that? Why not YOU? Why are you demanding this on someone else? 
> This is free software. Everyone can do this.

Getting Gnome working on Devuan is not one of my needs, but it is his.  I’m 
encouraging him to collect some hard data so a solution can be crafted, instead 
of carrying on a pointless argument based on a false premise.

jf
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frank...@tux.org



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Re: [DNG] Systemd-free => Gnome-free? [Was: Re: Gnome?

[Alessandro Selli]

On Wed, 20 Sep 2017 at 11:19:51 -0400
John Franklin  wrote:


> Your premise that “Gnome depends on systemd” is false.  The current
> *packages* may depend on systemd, but I’ll bet they can be patched and
> rebuilt without systemd.
>
> Give it a try. Please build the gnome packages from scratch and report back
> with where compilation fails.  Better yet, file bugs with patches to create
> a set of Gnome packages that don’t depend on systemd.

  If having Gnome work without systemd entails patching it's sources and
recompiling the whole bunch of packages, then you just proved Gnome does
indeed depend on systemd, not just on the package level, but on the code
level.



-- 
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VOIP SIP: dhatarat...@ekiga.net
Chiavi PGP/GPG keys: B7FD89FD, 4A904FD9
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Re: [DNG] Systemd-free => Gnome-free? [Was: Re: Gnome?

[J. Fahrner]

Am 2017-09-20 17:19, schrieb John Franklin:


Your premise that “Gnome depends on systemd” is false.  The current
*packages* may depend on systemd, but I’ll bet they can be patched and
rebuilt without systemd.

Give it a try. Please build the gnome packages from scratch and report
back with where compilation fails.  Better yet, file bugs with patches
to create a set of Gnome packages that don’t depend on systemd.


Who should do that? Why not YOU? Why are you demanding this on someone 
else? This is free software. Everyone can do this.


Jochen
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Re: [DNG] Systemd-free => Gnome-free? [Was: Re: Gnome?

[John Franklin]

> On Sep 20, 2017, at 4:16 AM, Erik Christiansen  
> wrote:
> 
> On 20.09.17 09:55, Svante Signell wrote:
>> On Wed, 2017-09-20 at 17:41 +1000, Erik Christiansen wrote:
>>> On 19.09.17 15:56, J. Fahrner wrote:
 I'm wondering why people cry when they don't get Gnome and why they try to
>> 
 And that's not possible for Gnome, because Gnome depends on systemd.
 If you want Gnome you have to live with systemd. It's your choice.
>>> 
>>> If that is true, then there is no Gnome in Devuan, and never can be?
>> 
>> Of course Gnome can be made available in Devuan too, see e.g.
>> 
>> https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20170918.102751.1992aff3.en.html
>> https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20170919.141940.3158b7ae.en.html
> 
> Neither those posts, nor yours, provide any relevant information. The
> question still stands:
> 
> If "Gnome depends on systemd ... you want Gnome you have to live with
> systemd." is true, then there is no Gnome in Devuan, and never can be?
> 
> Perhaps you'd like to address the validity of the dichotomy?

Your premise that “Gnome depends on systemd” is false.  The current *packages* 
may depend on systemd, but I’ll bet they can be patched and rebuilt without 
systemd.

Give it a try. Please build the gnome packages from scratch and report back 
with where compilation fails.  Better yet, file bugs with patches to create a 
set of Gnome packages that don’t depend on systemd.



jf
-- 
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frank...@tux.org



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Re: [DNG] Systemd-free => Gnome-free? [Was: Re: Gnome?

[Erik Christiansen]

On 20.09.17 09:55, Svante Signell wrote:
> On Wed, 2017-09-20 at 17:41 +1000, Erik Christiansen wrote:
> > On 19.09.17 15:56, J. Fahrner wrote:
> > > I'm wondering why people cry when they don't get Gnome and why they try to
> 
> > > And that's not possible for Gnome, because Gnome depends on systemd.
> > > If you want Gnome you have to live with systemd. It's your choice.
> > 
> > If that is true, then there is no Gnome in Devuan, and never can be?
> 
> Of course Gnome can be made available in Devuan too, see e.g.
> 
> https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20170918.102751.1992aff3.en.html
> https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20170919.141940.3158b7ae.en.html

Neither those posts, nor yours, provide any relevant information. The
question still stands:

If "Gnome depends on systemd ... you want Gnome you have to live with
systemd." is true, then there is no Gnome in Devuan, and never can be?

Perhaps you'd like to address the validity of the dichotomy?

Erik
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Re: [DNG] Systemd-free => Gnome-free? [Was: Re: Gnome?

[Svante Signell]

On Wed, 2017-09-20 at 17:41 +1000, Erik Christiansen wrote:
> On 19.09.17 15:56, J. Fahrner wrote:
> > I'm wondering why people cry when they don't get Gnome and why they try to

> > And that's not possible for Gnome, because Gnome depends on systemd.
> > If you want Gnome you have to live with systemd. It's your choice.
> 
> If that is true, then there is no Gnome in Devuan, and never can be?

Of course Gnome can be made available in Devuan too, see e.g.

https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20170918.102751.1992aff3.en.html
https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20170919.141940.3158b7ae.en.html

The issue in Devuan is systemd, not specifically Gnome.
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