Re: [DNG] sans-dbus: was Will there be a MirDevuan WTF?
Le 24/07/2015 00:37, Isaac Dunham a écrit : On Thu, Jul 23, 2015 at 11:49:11PM +0200, Didier Kryn wrote: Le 23/07/2015 22:19, Isaac Dunham a écrit : On Thu, Jul 23, 2015 at 12:12:36PM -0400, Steve Litt wrote: For those of you who don't want dbus, my experience tells me that getting rid of it would involve something like the following: * Use something like fvwm, Openbox or LXDE that makes minimal or no use of dbus. * Don't use NetworkManager. I don't remember whether Wicd uses dbus or not. If Wicd uses dbus, just do a combination of iwlist scanning and wpa_supplicant to dial in Wifi. wpa_cli will also work; if anyone's interested, I've written a shellscript based on dialog that simplifies configuring wpa_supplicant. I don't understand why you, Isaac, and also Steve want to do this yourself and always avoid speaking of wpa_gui. wpa_gui will really help you configuring wpa_supplicant. It detects all the needed parameters and only requires you to enter the secret keys. Why rewrite all this yourself (unless for training)? My main motive was the fact that wpa_gui will not work unless you already have a working wpa_supplicant.conf wpa_supplicant is running. (My script was partly inspired by how hard it is to figure out what goes in wpa_supplicant.conf if you've never used wpa_supplicant before.) man wpa_supplicant.conf andgoogle howto wpa_supplicant It also has to do with Qt4 vs. dialog: one drags in one of the largest GUI toolkits around, and the other is a couple hundred kilobytes, runs in text mode, and only depends on a single library that's basically guaranteed to be installed and implements a POSIX API, with an installed size in the half megabyte range. (In case you're wondering about the POSIX API part, curses is part of POSIX; dialog only needs ncurses.) That's a very good point. Thanks for pointing it. For what it's worth, my script also works with whiptail, although -- contrary to the whiptail docs -- whiptail ends up using many times the space on i386, between libslang, libnewt, and libpopt, besides being buggy. In theory, it will also work with Xdialog if you have it. BTW I had a look at wicd the other day and read I could only configure it for one wifi station. Is that true? wpa_supplicant can store an unlimited list of stations and connect to the one it detects... I have more than 30 in my wpa_supplicant.conf -- labs, homes, hotels, bars. I don't recall seeing any signs of such a limitation when I used wicd for connecting to wireless at home and at college... That said, when I tried it was fond of spawning lots of wpa_supplicant processes. I figured this out the the documentation. It might only be the doc which is misleading, hence my question. Thanks. Didier ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] sans-dbus: was Will there be a MirDevuan WTF?
On Thu, 23 Jul 2015 07:24:10 -1000 Joel Roth jo...@pobox.com wrote: Steve Litt wrote: On Thu, 23 Jul 2015 08:39:05 +0200 Michael Bütow mbu...@houtbay.com wrote: I am sure if someone wants to expend the energy to get rid of D-Bus related software in Devuan, they can set up their own spin of it. For those of you who don't want dbus, my experience tells me that getting rid of it would involve something like the following: (other steps) get rid of ALSA to get away from dbus, and use OSS with snd_mixer_oss and rexima. ALSA doesn't depend on DBus. OK, well that makes it even easier! SteveT Steve Litt July 2015 featured book: Rapid Learning for the 21st Century http://www.troubleshooters.com/rl21 ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] sans-dbus: was Will there be a MirDevuan WTF?
On Thu, Jul 23, 2015 at 12:12:36PM -0400, Steve Litt wrote: On Thu, 23 Jul 2015 08:39:05 +0200 Michael Bütow mbu...@houtbay.com wrote: I am sure if someone wants to expend the energy to get rid of D-Bus related software in Devuan, they can set up their own spin of it. For those of you who don't want dbus, my experience tells me that getting rid of it would involve something like the following: * Use something like fvwm, Openbox or LXDE that makes minimal or no use of dbus. * Don't use NetworkManager. I don't remember whether Wicd uses dbus or not. If Wicd uses dbus, just do a combination of iwlist scanning and wpa_supplicant to dial in Wifi. wpa_cli will also work; if anyone's interested, I've written a shellscript based on dialog that simplifies configuring wpa_supplicant. Said shell script is actually part of my local wireless configuration setup; the other half consists of an init script to start wpa_supplicant and a script to call busybox udhcpc when the connection is completed. If you're wondering how wpa_cli connects to wpa_supplicant, it's by means of a unix socket at /var/run/wpa_supplicant/$IFACE; no DBUS involved. Put a command into your init system that kills the dbus started in your initramfs. I personally wouldn't recommend tampering with your initramfs itself. Ah, that's where the fun *starts*! It's all boring till you get there. Just purge the dbus package; it can be done, and it won't break anything that wouldn't be broken by stopping dbus. Then pin it (at -100, maybe?). In your init system, get rid of commands that start or modify a running dbus. Apt does that for you if you purge dbus. Get rid of Pulseaudio (obviously, and not just to get away from dbus), get rid of ALSA to get away from dbus, and use OSS with snd_mixer_oss and rexima. ALSA does not use dbus. It uses a library that handles writing to the soundcard. I've used a Debian system that has ALSA and not DBUS, as well as running strace. You might have to tell several of your GUI programs not to do notifications, because they notify to dbus without the option to notify other ways. It's probably not going to be that difficult for the average Devuan user to get rid of dbus if s/he wants to. Or just add the MirDebian repos that Miroslav referred to (you may want both yplentyn and wtf). There are no dependencies that are missing on Devuan, since everything that we're trying to remove is a subset of what mirabilos set out to remove. HTH, Isaac ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] sans-dbus: was Will there be a MirDevuan WTF?
On Thu, Jul 23, 2015 at 11:49:11PM +0200, Didier Kryn wrote: Le 23/07/2015 22:19, Isaac Dunham a écrit : On Thu, Jul 23, 2015 at 12:12:36PM -0400, Steve Litt wrote: For those of you who don't want dbus, my experience tells me that getting rid of it would involve something like the following: * Use something like fvwm, Openbox or LXDE that makes minimal or no use of dbus. * Don't use NetworkManager. I don't remember whether Wicd uses dbus or not. If Wicd uses dbus, just do a combination of iwlist scanning and wpa_supplicant to dial in Wifi. wpa_cli will also work; if anyone's interested, I've written a shellscript based on dialog that simplifies configuring wpa_supplicant. I don't understand why you, Isaac, and also Steve want to do this yourself and always avoid speaking of wpa_gui. wpa_gui will really help you configuring wpa_supplicant. It detects all the needed parameters and only requires you to enter the secret keys. Why rewrite all this yourself (unless for training)? My main motive was the fact that wpa_gui will not work unless you already have a working wpa_supplicant.conf wpa_supplicant is running. (My script was partly inspired by how hard it is to figure out what goes in wpa_supplicant.conf if you've never used wpa_supplicant before.) It also has to do with Qt4 vs. dialog: one drags in one of the largest GUI toolkits around, and the other is a couple hundred kilobytes, runs in text mode, and only depends on a single library that's basically guaranteed to be installed and implements a POSIX API, with an installed size in the half megabyte range. (In case you're wondering about the POSIX API part, curses is part of POSIX; dialog only needs ncurses.) For what it's worth, my script also works with whiptail, although -- contrary to the whiptail docs -- whiptail ends up using many times the space on i386, between libslang, libnewt, and libpopt, besides being buggy. In theory, it will also work with Xdialog if you have it. BTW I had a look at wicd the other day and read I could only configure it for one wifi station. Is that true? wpa_supplicant can store an unlimited list of stations and connect to the one it detects... I have more than 30 in my wpa_supplicant.conf -- labs, homes, hotels, bars. I don't recall seeing any signs of such a limitation when I used wicd for connecting to wireless at home and at college... That said, when I tried it was fond of spawning lots of wpa_supplicant processes. Thanks, Isaac Dunham ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] sans-dbus: was Will there be a MirDevuan WTF?
Le 23/07/2015 22:19, Isaac Dunham a écrit : On Thu, Jul 23, 2015 at 12:12:36PM -0400, Steve Litt wrote: For those of you who don't want dbus, my experience tells me that getting rid of it would involve something like the following: * Use something like fvwm, Openbox or LXDE that makes minimal or no use of dbus. * Don't use NetworkManager. I don't remember whether Wicd uses dbus or not. If Wicd uses dbus, just do a combination of iwlist scanning and wpa_supplicant to dial in Wifi. wpa_cli will also work; if anyone's interested, I've written a shellscript based on dialog that simplifies configuring wpa_supplicant. I don't understand why you, Isaac, and also Steve want to do this yourself and always avoid speaking of wpa_gui. wpa_gui will really help you configuring wpa_supplicant. It detects all the needed parameters and only requires you to enter the secret keys. Why rewrite all this yourself (unless for training)? BTW I had a look at wicd the other day and read I could only configure it for one wifi station. Is that true? wpa_supplicant can store an unlimited list of stations and connect to the one it detects... I have more than 30 in my wpa_supplicant.conf -- labs, homes, hotels, bars. Didier ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] sans-dbus: was Will there be a MirDevuan WTF?
Steve Litt wrote: On Thu, 23 Jul 2015 08:39:05 +0200 Michael Bütow mbu...@houtbay.com wrote: I am sure if someone wants to expend the energy to get rid of D-Bus related software in Devuan, they can set up their own spin of it. For those of you who don't want dbus, my experience tells me that getting rid of it would involve something like the following: (other steps) get rid of ALSA to get away from dbus, and use OSS with snd_mixer_oss and rexima. ALSA doesn't depend on DBus. -- Joel Roth ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] sans-dbus: was Will there be a MirDevuan WTF?
Alsa uses dbus, since when? On Jul 23, 2015 7:12 PM, Steve Litt sl...@troubleshooters.com wrote: On Thu, 23 Jul 2015 08:39:05 +0200 Michael Bütow mbu...@houtbay.com wrote: I am sure if someone wants to expend the energy to get rid of D-Bus related software in Devuan, they can set up their own spin of it. For those of you who don't want dbus, my experience tells me that getting rid of it would involve something like the following: * Use something like fvwm, Openbox or LXDE that makes minimal or no use of dbus. * Don't use NetworkManager. I don't remember whether Wicd uses dbus or not. If Wicd uses dbus, just do a combination of iwlist scanning and wpa_supplicant to dial in Wifi. Put a command into your init system that kills the dbus started in your initramfs. I personally wouldn't recommend tampering with your initramfs itself. In your init system, get rid of commands that start or modify a running dbus. Get rid of Pulseaudio (obviously, and not just to get away from dbus), get rid of ALSA to get away from dbus, and use OSS with snd_mixer_oss and rexima. You might have to tell several of your GUI programs not to do notifications, because they notify to dbus without the option to notify other ways. It's probably not going to be that difficult for the average Devuan user to get rid of dbus if s/he wants to. SteveT Steve Litt July 2015 featured book: Rapid Learning for the 21st Century http://www.troubleshooters.com/rl21 ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
