Re: [Dng] About Devuan's audience

[Nuno Magalhães]

Didn't know this thread was poll-ish.

I use/administer/whatever 100 machines at the moment: 11 run linux,
the other 1 (my laptop) runs windows while still in warranty (and
because in a realistic world i have to deal with Microsoft Office,
although i've heard its 2003 version runs well in WINE). Of the 11
linux boxes:
* 1 is my desktop which currently runs Whezzy with care taken every
time i issue an apt-get install. This machine's been mostly for
testing as some of its drives don't play along with the mobo's BIOS so
i'll have to postpone ZFS for the moment and stick to RAID5 once i
replace those drives. Later it'll be my home server.
* Another 1 is a VPS, running Debian stable.
* The other 1 is my work laptop which soon will run some other linux
instead of the current ubuntu (which i dislike).

I've been a regular user for probably around 10 years, alergic to
behemoth DEs, not alergic to CLI or compiling stuff from source when
even Sid is way behind, considering Slackware, Gentoo and/or LFS to
try out new stuff, learn stuff and find good replacements for Debian
(i'm not a distro-hoper, but that will very likely change). Yes,
Devuan will be on that list. :) I'm also considering OpenBSD and
OpenIndiana, assuming i have time to tinker.

I have a lot of curiosity and too little time, but i'll help if i can.

I'm here because i want choice and i like stuff to be modular and
open, not closed and monolithic (unless we're talking about Clarke's
2001).

Cheers,
Nuno
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Re: [Dng] Community polls on Devuan design

[Nuno Magalhães]

I'd go for:
1. http://without-systemd.org/wiki/index.php/File:Negative-Galaxy-v1.5-SVG.svg
or a spinoff of this, seems sober and not too flashy, i like it
2. http://without-systemd.org/wiki/index.php/File:Devuan-D-Inspired-2.svg
if the swirl could be improved and, as a suggestion, the other letters
could be non-latin

Btw, is there a roadmap? Or is devuan just gonna be debian without systemd?
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Re: [Dng] Please!! revive Bastille hardening tool for Devuan

[Nuno Magalhães]

Isn't Bastille a set of scripts to harden Debian security?
Well, IMMHO, Devuan shouldn't need such a collection if said security
was default (which should be).

Cheers,
Nuno
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Re: [Dng] Community polls on Devuan design

[Nuno Magalhães]

On Sun, Feb 8, 2015 at 6:03 PM, Jaromil jaro...@dyne.org wrote:
 However, I don't think this is a priority now. I still cannot imagine
 why someone would want to be strictly anonymous while accessing that.

You can replace anonymous with systemd, you know?
It's a matter of choice.
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Re: [Dng] About separate mailing lists

[Nuno Magalhães]

 Talking about something else, it seems that the list is becoming
 two-fold. On one hand, it becomes concentrated on development, while
 at the same time it discusses more philosophical issues. Maybe is it
 the moment to separate into a dev list and a users list?

Nope. I think both being together is a strength, not a weekness. It's
a way for developers to be in tune with what the (less techicaly
inclined) users need/want, and for the users to receive some developer
sensibility via osmosis. Or something like that.

Just my 0.2
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Re: [Dng] recommendation for consideration: keep as close to debian as possible

[Nuno Magalhães]

Assuming i don't get moderated out (unlike the resident troll),

On Sat, Feb 14, 2015 at 9:59 PM, Luke Leighton l...@lkcl.net wrote:
  1) your debian system will not be screwed up or compromised by using
 devuan.  you will also not lose any functionality or packages.

  2) we understand the difficulty of maintaining an entire distro.
 we implicitly understand that we will not get to 1,000 maintainers
 in the immediate future, so we are being realistic and will not
 be doing a complete fork.  it's too much effort for us, and we
 recognise that you probably wouldn't trust us (i.e. wouldn't
 even want to *try* upgrading to devuan) if we created one.

  3) we're restricting the scope of what we're doing to a few key
 strategic packages, and we're going to make it easy for you to
 remove systemd.  that's our core focus.

This seems reasonable, as does keeping compatibility. Devuan's is a
small team, so taking one pondered step at a time is crucial. Focusing
on removing systemd dependencies as a first step seems reasonable and,
with more and more packages depending on systemd, challenging too.

I wouldn't aim at releasing a behemoth DE like GNOME on the first
Devuan release. KISS please, no GUI if  necessary, focus on a plugable
infrastructure.

It makes sense to keep compatibility with Debian *and* with upstream.
Someone mentioned it already and i wouldn't be surprised if Debian
becomes poetterized and adds systemd dependencies to packages that
don't have them from upstream.

For now, it seems like a new repo on sources.list is the way to go
(similar to debian-multimedia). In the future, maybe it'll become a
distro.

My 2c
Nuno
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Re: [Dng] Dng Digest, Vol 6, Issue 75

[Nuno Magalhães]

On Sun, Mar 22, 2015 at 7:24 AM, T.J. Duchene t.j.duch...@gmail.com wrote:
 What I said was at some point Devuan will probably have to support systemd's
 API, in order to support upstream projects that actually require systemd.

Why?

Biggest example: GNOME (now) requires systemd. I don't want systemd,
so, i won't use GNOME. If i want either, i'll use Debian, not Devuan.

I don't understand this sheeple need to do what everybody else does,
indded it's redmondesque. If you want that, go use another distro,
there are hundreds out there who are doing what everybody else does.
Use Ubuntu, it's fashionable and Debian-like.

This particular distro, at least it seems to me, was born to *avoid*
lock-ins like systemd. Or stuff that depends on lock-ins like systemd,
which makes it [the dependant stuff] locked-in as well. Call it
another kind of GPL thing if you will, systemd is becoming a UNIX™.
Back then, GNU came along and created free versions (minus the
kernel); nowaways, there's systemd™, and here's Devuan.

So far the most sensible approach of established distros, to me, has
been that of gentoo (which i'm currently exploring): they use OpenRC
by default, but you're free to use systemd _if_ you want[1]. *That* is
freedom of choice and i sincerely hope they won't succumb to the
pressure. Since Debian didn't go that way (a sad surprise considering
what i thought Debian was), here's Devuan.
(I'm not considering Slackware at the moment 'cos Mr Volkerding hasn't
been specific, he's wait-and-see-ing apparently.)

Devuan's not at established distro and the purpose has been, from the
beginning, to avoid lock-ins. You're free to package upstart or some
other non-intrusive init system for Devuan, i'm sure the VUA won't
mind, and then there'll be the choice between two unlocked init
systems (implicitly calling systemd an init system is an
understatement). But i don't see systemd in the Devuan universe -
that'll completely defeat the purpose. Will avoiding systemd cause
more work? Definitely. But what's the rush? Release when ready.

My 0.02

Cheers,
Nuno

[1] 
https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Handbook:AMD64/Installation/Base#Optional:_Using_systemd
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Re: [Dng] Devuan commitments - will trade-off be applied?

[Nuno Magalhães]

On Fri, Mar 20, 2015 at 9:09 PM, Joerg Reisenweber reisenwe...@web.de wrote:
 My guess would be that all rogue stuff like
 systemd simply doesn't show up in devuan's packages.gz, and thus any package
 depending on it would run into unmet dependencies when trying to install it.

Makes sense.
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Re: [Dng] release names

[Nuno Magalhães]

On Sat, Mar 7, 2015 at 4:16 PM, Klaus Hartnegg hartn...@uni-freiburg.de wrote:
 Just want to say that I really like this idea of naming releases after minor 
 planets, such as Ceres. It's a way cool idea.

+1

 Cool yes, but useful? Numbers have the huge advantage that everybody knows 
 their order, which is quite important when referring to versions.

Most people will want the latest version, which will always be the
latest advertised on the site. Keeping tabs does matter, so a wikipage
could solve that.
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Re: [Dng] Plan for Devuan to use Mozilla products as is

[Nuno Magalhães]

On Fri, Mar 6, 2015 at 7:06 PM, T.J. Duchene t.j.duch...@gmail.com wrote:

 If someone has issue with the code, it's open. Go look for yourself.  I beg
 everyone's kind indulgence and excuse me for saying this, but the conspiracy
 theories about Google and the Chromium source code come from people who have
 never actually looked at the code.   Then again, I bet they haven't looked
 at the Firefox code either.

Go look at the code, it's open is a common argument i hear from
pro-systemd advocates. Curious.

About looking at the code: have you personally audited chrome's code,
top to bottom, OpenBSD-style? 'Cos if you haven't - it is a big piece
of software -, well your argument is moot.

Some people already pointed out there are times where chromium doesn't
cut it, so hey, i bet the VUA wouldn't mind you repackaging chromium
for Devuan :)

Cheers,
Nuno
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Re: [Dng] release names

[Nuno Magalhães]

On Sat, Mar 7, 2015 at 6:44 PM, Klaus Hartnegg hartn...@uni-freiburg.de wrote:
 Nowhere on that page is a version number or a release date, so people not
 familar with cool have no idea how outdated this might be

So let's strive to make better documentation.
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Re: [Dng] greets

[Nuno Magalhães]

On Tue, Mar 10, 2015 at 10:44 PM, Hendrik Boom hend...@topoi.pooq.com wrote:
 until they've been a
 member

What constitutes Devuan membership?
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Re: [Dng] Why daemontools is so cool

[Nuno Magalhães]

On Sat, Mar 28, 2015 at 12:15 PM, poitr pogo lepo...@gmail.com wrote:
 S6 even forces such a program must not handle daemon mode itself.
 That process must not background itself: being run by a
 supervision tree already makes it a background task.

I don't know its innards, but i find it awkward that a program would
force, thus prevent another from daemonizing. Can you explain?

Cheers,
Nuno
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Re: [Dng] Init Freedom badges

[Nuno Magalhães]

On Fri, Feb 27, 2015 at 9:55 PM, Go Linux goli...@yahoo.com wrote:
 And why penguins? I think in terms of non-conformity, the platypus
 makes much more sense.
 Why?

'Cos us humans and out need for recognizable patterns can't quite classify it :)
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Re: [Dng] [OT] Debian problems with Jesse - was simple backgrounds

[Nuno Magalhães]

On Tue, Mar 3, 2015 at 10:42 PM, T.J. Duchene t.j.duch...@gmail.com wrote:
 On Tue, 3 Mar 2015 07:25:23 +
 KatolaZ kato...@freaknet.org wrote:

 All computer languages are constrained to the physical nature of the
 processor, so the benefits of one over another are usually really
 nothing more than syntactic sugar.

So what you're saying is that all languages are syntactic sugar over
assembly? :)

 As a counter-argument, I would offer that you can perform any task in C,
 (with the extremely occasional asm block) that the processor is
 physically capable of, but the reverse cannot be said of other
 languages.

Fornicate yeah!

 These languages might be easier to use by those allergic to to lower
 level ones, but the overhead and inefficiency wastes battery power.
 Ultimately, the time the programmers might save are spent by the
 potential thousand users who have wait 5 minutes for the app to run
 rather than 2 1/2.

More and more i see it'll be more work / take longer to implement /
be more complex as developer excuses to use more user-friendly
languages like java (and less and less developers learning C in
college so they're biased). It should be easy for the end-user,
definitely; and if it can be easy for the developer as well, cool.
Making something less efficient/fast/scalable/ because it's
hard...?

My uncalled-for €0.02
Cheers,
Nuno
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Re: [Dng] Looking for advices in preparation to switch from Debian to Devuan

[Nuno Magalhães]

On Mon, Feb 23, 2015 at 1:48 AM, Anto arya...@chello.at wrote:
 No comment anyone?

Actually, i didn't see your first post...

For Debian, you could try, as a hack, to install either and older
wheezy or squeeze, pin stuff and upgrade. There are also docs laying
around for stippping systemd from wheezy to varying degrees of
success.

For Devuan, it's still in an alpha state. I am not an authority on the
matter, but i'd recommend you wait until it's stable before using it
in VPSs.

HTH,
Nuno
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Re: [Dng] Dng Digest, Vol 5, Issue 11

[Nuno Magalhães]

On Sun, Feb 22, 2015 at 2:38 PM, Ста Деюс sthu.d...@openmailbox.org wrote:
 But, at the first, what is planned to perform to protect «Devuan» from
 the guys, that got hold of the fantastic project «Debian»? In other
 words, if the guys come to «Devuan» and by their cruelty will start
 to «help» some of developers to corrupt the project, do abnormal,
 unnatural for the project things -- similar like constitution of
 «Debian» appeared, finnaly the «systemd» was forcibly set up: how we
 will protect our project?

Very good question.
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Re: [Dng] UEFI secure boot not secure

[Nuno Magalhães]

On Sun, Feb 22, 2015 at 4:20 PM, Gravis rin...@adaptivetime.com wrote:
 As recent news has shown, we also need to start writing new firmware for our
 hard drives.  Since so many things have shown to be insecure, the question
 has becomes if it's worth reverse engineering proprietary systems versus
 engineering a libre systems from the ground up.

That's easy in software, but hardware and firmware doesn't seem as
easy. OpenMoko kinda did it, but i don't see big manufacturers lending
a hand or you building an SDD in your garage. Reverse engineering
seems viable at the moment.

Cheers,
Nuno
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Re: [Dng] Dng Digest, Vol 5, Issue 11

[Nuno Magalhães]

On Mon, Feb 23, 2015 at 8:54 PM, Hendrik Boom hend...@topoi.pooq.com wrote:
 Unless, of course, we choose to use the band's logo as well...

Paul Stanley's tongue... Tux sticking its tongue out... dunno. Anyway
will Devuan have release names? I'd go with Calimero for 1.0.
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Re: [Dng] Looking for advices in preparation to switch from Debian to Devuan

[Nuno Magalhães]

On Mon, Feb 23, 2015 at 7:15 PM, Anto arya...@chello.at wrote:
 What is not clear to me is that, what will happen to udev or all systemd
 related packages that are currently required by nginx-extras and php5-fpm
 for instance?

On wheezy i don't see nginx-extras depending on udev or any systemd*.
I don't have jessie but i couldn't trace any dependencies on
packages.debian.org either. Where did you see these dependencies? Can
you apt-rdepend them? The closest i could find was nginx-extras »
nginx-common » init-system-helpers but it goes on to perl-base » dpkg
» libselinux1 » libpcre3 and that's it. Maybe i missed something in
libselinux1? Could you be using a third-party module that may have
other dependencies? I didn't check Recommends.

Can't say i use the nginx packages much, though, i've been compiling
it from source since around 0.7. Back then even Sid was way behind and
after 1.0 it (like any other httpd) got bundled into -extras, -full,
-light, -whatever that never quite satisfied my needs.

I didn't check php5-fpm (i tend to use php5-cgi with some script in -
wait for it - /etc/init.d, but i forget which).

As to what will happen, again, no authority, but the main goal for
Devuan 1.0 is that whatever comes out then, is systemd-free. That
includes whichever *dev it ships with (there are a few threads about
possible candidates for this role).

HTH,
Nuno
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Re: [Dng] OT - It may be only one file, but it does point to the bigger problem!

[Nuno Magalhães]

On Tue, Feb 24, 2015 at 12:57 AM, Noel Torres env...@rolamasao.org wrote:
 We have RAID tools like mdadm for RAID, and filesystems like ext4 or Reiserfs
 for file storage.

 Why would I want a tool combining both?

You'd want one so you can, for isntance, avoid a RAID5 write hole. ZFS
seems pretty cool, the only downside i see is perhaps more
fragmentation that other systems.

Cheers,
Nuno
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Re: [Dng] KDE systemd lock-in

[Nuno Magalhães]

On Fri, Feb 20, 2015 at 5:47 PM, Steve Litt sl...@troubleshooters.com wrote:
 They were
 specialists in monolithic entanglement when Lennart was in diapers.

i'd say any Behemoth DE does that and, like some else said, systemd
doing it is just the latest (and most blatant) example of this.

Cheers,
Nuno
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Re: [Dng] Devuan Logo survey

[Nuno Magalhães]

 On 02/26/15 10:24, Linuxito wrote:
 The logo threads are multiplying: it shows the impatience is growing.

I disagree. IMHO the logo threads show a lot of users like to chip in
with their opinions. No harm there, and no impatience either. I
believe rushed things tend to hit fans. Therefore, i'd rather wait
longer and have a decent, stable(ish) alpha rather than having a cool
looking breakage-prone thing tomorrow. I vote for Release when ready.™

 What I'd like to see instead is a focus on a real issue we have, which
 is shipping desktop background designs.  This is not a unique item, so
 people can have the distro shipped with the background they'd like to
 use.  Isn't that more interesting?

Nope. *To me*, it's neither a real issue nor is it interesting and
along the same lines i don't give a rat's ass about the logo either
(although i obviously do have aesthetic preferences and picked a logo
from the poll). Since alpha's gonna ship with a minimalist DE, i'd go
with a gradient/solid color background and focus developer time in
real issues like removing systemd dependencies. I'd even be cool with
no GUI in the alpha release, but i grok and support how a minimalist
DE is a good compromise.

On Thu, Feb 26, 2015 at 5:00 PM, Jaromil jaro...@dyne.org wrote:
 Is likely not going to be the most interesting thing in Devuan, but
 anyway I wish we tag this process soon with some black and white
 minimalist design to be used,

Prior to recent (at least in Debian) releases, Xorg came with the
classic checkered monochrome pattern, i'm cool with that :)
(Now it comes with a black background which is really moronic 'cos it
leaves me wondering Did --configure barf or is this the root
window?).

My personal 2¢
Cheers,
Nuno
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Re: [Dng] rumors on RMS about systemd at libreplanet

[Nuno Magalhães]

On Mon, Mar 23, 2015 at 6:59 PM, Mark R. White whit...@gmail.com wrote:

 Just to be clear: I've seen a lot of cross talk about the possibility of
 systemd being put into Devuan via a sandbox or even having the systemd API
 written in.  Is it safe to assume that going forward that there will be no
 systemd in Devuan?  Because if there is, I'm in the wrong place.

+1
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Re: [Dng] Another reason of why I am considering Devuan

[Nuno Magalhães]

On Thu, Apr 2, 2015 at 8:52 PM, T.J. Duchene t.j.duch...@gmail.com wrote:
 DNS calls are nonspecific
 data, associated only with your carrier's dynamic IP address, not a specific
 user.

Where i come from ISP's dynamic IP lease times are *very* long, you
need to reboot the home router to get a new IP and even then you may
get the same IP. It's not that dynamic, at all. Add that with data
your browser provides, your *.google.com in|direct usage, etc... it's
easy to correlate and monetize.
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Re: [Dng] What do you guys think about Suggest and Recommends dependency?

[Nuno Magalhães]

On Thu, Apr 2, 2015 at 11:36 PM, Franco Lanza next...@nexlab.it wrote:
 Personally on debian i was using from date

 APT:Install-Recommends 0;
 APT:Install-Suggests 0;

+1
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Re: [Dng] dev-list

[Nuno Magalhães]

On Tue, Apr 7, 2015 at 7:25 AM, Martijn Dekkers
devuan-li...@dekkers.org.uk wrote:
 I know this has come up a few times in the past, but I would really like to
 see a dev specific list, with some strict dev-only rules.

I disagree, this will mean the devs will self-segregate and tend to
ignore users.
Having both camps in the same list evens each other out.
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Re: [Dng] Claim your power

[Nuno Magalhães]

Please don't feed the trolls. Thank you.
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Re: [Dng] What about pulseaudio, avahi, ... ?

[Nuno Magalhães]

On Wed, Apr 1, 2015 at 8:25 PM, toto titi voidtothete...@gmail.com wrote:
 Do you plan to get rid of pulseaudio and avahi as well, or do you just
 focus on systemd ?

(I don't speak for the VUA but, from what i've been reading...)

Systemd is perceived as not freedom-friendly, hence the fork. If
pulseaudio and/or avahi are similar, in this respect, to systemd then,
yes, they may be forked in the future. However, the purpose is not to
dePoetterize but to make sure you always have choice: in what init
system you want to use, what sound daemon, what zeroconf daemon, what
ever, etc. So if you don't like insert software name here, ideally
you should be able to replace it with something else without
completely crippling your system. Or rather, replacing it would be a
no-brainer in Devuan.

Cheers,
Nuno
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Re: [Dng] This has GOT to be an April Fools joke

[Nuno Magalhães]

On Mon, Mar 30, 2015 at 12:25 PM, Nate Bargmann n...@n0nb.us wrote:
 Before anyone takes this too seriously a bit more research needs to be
 done as we are very close to the date that an elaborate ruse is
 plausible, at least for us in the USA.

For the time being, it seems like a joke. At least this time.

But, like others said, it wouldn't be a bad thing, let'em taint their
own kernel. It would be interesting if Mr Torvalds would block them
from using the name linux, but regardless it would keep things
separate.

Still, a behemoth as Red Hat might be, one does not just simply fork a
kernel. Unless of course you join efforts with Google and other Incs,
then sure, here be dragons gone.

My2c
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Re: [Dng] Devuan commitments - will trade-off be applied?

[Nuno Magalhães]

On Mon, Mar 30, 2015 at 1:41 PM, Joerg Reisenweber reisenwe...@web.de wrote:
 The linux trademark is owned and protected, I think they can't do with
 linux whatever they want.

I believe it's onwn by Mr Torvalds to prevent someone else from
clobbering it (like SCO). I don't think he plans to actually leverage
that use for anything.
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Re: [Dng] Call for factoids on the Debian fork

[Nuno Magalhães]

One thing that has always bugged me was that Debian was supposed to be
*the* distro that runs on just about anything from an embedded system
to a supercomputer, from an old dumb terminal or mainframe to a fairly
recent laptop (well kinda, drivers etc). It was even one of the
reasons the default installer is text-based: it should run over a
serial console, etc. Debian supported the most architectures, not just
x86 (unfortunately it dropped a few recently). Does systemd even
support all this? And what will happen to the ISS[1]?

It's saddening. Oh well, hre's Devuan!

[1] 
http://phys.org/news/2013-05-international-space-station-laptop-migration.html

On Sat, Apr 4, 2015 at 9:36 PM, Steve Litt sl...@troubleshooters.com wrote:
 On Fri, 03 Apr 2015 19:56:48 -0300
 hellekin helle...@dyne.org wrote:

 Hello dears,

 one of the current tasks of the Devuan Editors is to gather facts
 about the Debian fork in order to write a compelling story to be told
 on debianfork.org.

 This domain will hopefully be the place to deflect and defuse any
 troll about the Debian fork and systemd, in order to focus devuan.org
 on the actual distro work.

 Any help is welcome to gather original emails, timelines, witness
 accounts, key people and facts.  The objective, I repeat, is to gather
 facts, not gossip, and not opinions or feelings about systemd.

 What I want to do is reply to the question: why did Devuan fork
 Debian? in the most sensible way possible.  (Incidentally, how it
 happened may also be relevant ;o)

 If you'd like to get involved in the writing process, please idle on
 #devuan-www on Freenode IRC.  Thank you for your attention and for
 your help.

 Hi hellekin,

 Of course, the Debian-User
 (https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2014/). Here you can see what's
 often called the Debian systemd wars, from about 7/1/2014 through the
 rest of the year. You can get a feel for why people continued to try to
 force Debian to provide choice, and the feeling of helplessness.


 The Debian-devel list
 (https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/) shows the systemd discussions
 from the start.

 The CTTE deliberations, which I consider the original crime (but you
 asked for facts, not opinions), is
 https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=727708

 At https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2014/09/msg01367.html , you see
 Don Armstrong boasting about voting for systemd, and pointing to his
 vote and explanation.

 In September 2014, Joel Roth had created a mailing list called
 Modular-Debian, whose archives are at
 https://www.freelists.org/archive/modular-debian.

 Modular-Debian served first as a place where anti-systemd former
 Debianistas could vent, and then as a design facility for sans-systemd
 solutions, perhaps a Jessie Without Systemd. By years end
 Modular-Debian was superceded by Dng, and you'll find a lot of former
 Modular-Debian people on the Dng list. If anyone knows where to find
 the Modular-Debian archives, please post it.

 Throughout late 2014, I (Steve Litt) posted the Manjaro Experiments,
 proving that systemd could be short circuited by other inits such as
 runit and Epoch and OpenRC. You can see it at
 http://www.troubleshooters.com/linux/init/manjaro_experiments.htm .

 The Dng mailing list started in early November, 2014, and quickly
 replaced Modular-Debian as the Go To place for former Debianistas. Note
 the famous and historical Don't panic and keep forking Debian™! post
 (https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20141127.212941.f55acc3a.en.html)
 to reassure everyone after Ian Jackson's GR rubber stamped systemd.
 That was the post that got things rolling!

 Running parallel to all of this was the activity going on in the
 various non-traditional init mailing lists:

 * supervis...@list.skarnet.org

 * several more

 These people are moving toward making easy to install and admin inits
 based on daemontools, such as s6, runit, perp, and nosh. They are
 moving toward a user-easy init script language across several or all of
 them. Every one of them has a brain the size of Texas.

 The preceding is what I know/remember about the evolution of
 Debian-Fork, sans-systemd Debian, etc.

 SteveT

 Steve Litt*  http://www.troubleshooters.com/
 Troubleshooting Training  *  Human Performance

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Re: [Dng] dev-list

[Nuno Magalhães]

Oh wait, it wasn't offlist.

On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 5:13 AM, Martijn Dekkers
devuan-li...@dekkers.org.uk wrote:
 The «long standing, wide-ranging implementation pattern» thing is a
 bogus argument. Similar to Lots of people jump of bridges, care to
 join them?


 Thats just uninformed bullshit. Patterns are one of the cornerstones of
 modern computing architecture - without patterns everybody will be doomed to
 re-invent everything from the ground up. Comparing patterns with
 bridge-jumping is ridiculous, and not a little bit stupid. Separate lists
 are widely practiced in the open source community at large because they
 work, not because everybody else is doing it.

Still, convoluted arguments, feeble attempt at insult, does seem like a troll.

 This discussion has gone from a simple request for a -dev list to a wide
 ranging discussion about how we can do something similar without actually
 going for the cheapest and easiest option (which is to have a separate
 list). Interestingly, I see two broad groups. Those that want a simple dev
 list, and those that absolutely don't want other people to have one, for the
 most tenuous of arguments.

There's the third camp of people who believes a dev-only list will
generate self-segregation, meaning devs will only read that list. This
isn't a profecy.

Too much noise, i'll stop reading this thread.
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Re: [Dng] dev-list

[Nuno Magalhães]

Hi,

Just me being picky here.

On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 5:35 AM, Martijn Dekkers
devuan-li...@dekkers.org.uk wrote:
 The flip side is those that say don't split the lists - there again is no
 significant cost to subscribing to both both lists, and follow and
 participate in both lists if they so wish. It isn't so much a segregation of
 a community, it is a segregation of topics - and a long standing,
 wide-ranging implementation pattern in the wider open-source community at
 that.

Maybe i should say self-segregation instead. That's my beef, but as
you correctly say, anyone can join any list (and leave it too).
The «long standing, wide-ranging implementation pattern» thing is a
bogus argument. Similar to Lots of people jump of bridges, care to
join them?

 This isn't the first call for separate lists, so there clearly is a (strong)
 desire for this from some people.

Just because some people called for it, doesn't mean they feel
strongly about it.
Again, just being picky.

Oh, holy devs, i intentionally did not put [DEV] in the subject (a
reasonable suggestion if i might add).
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Re: [Dng] Slackware systemd creepin in maybe?

[Nuno Magalhães]

On Tue, May 19, 2015 at 10:18 PM, James Powell james4...@hotmail.com wrote:
 Patrick has no intent on enforcing the usage of systemd upon Slackware and
 it's users unless it becomes an unavoidable issue.

Which raises the question: what does Patrick consider to be unavoidable?
I thought Debian would run on anything and was immune to bullshit, yet
it's been reducing its supported architectures and now is
systemd-locked... :(

Cheers,
Nuno
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Re: [Dng] Slackware systemd creepin in maybe?

[Nuno Magalhães]

On Sat, May 23, 2015 at 9:59 PM, James Powell james4...@hotmail.com wrote:
 It's a shame Devuan can't make a bold statement against the kernel itself to
 not want to buy into Greg Kroah-Hartman's systemdified kdbus future, and try
 to force the kernel to be forked as well.

Let's hope Mr Torvalds has the balls to do what's right.

 Too much is being poisoned by systemd, and if the UNIX ecosystem of software
 collapses because of this, who is going to be able and willing to pick up
 the pieces?

There's a UNIX ecosystem? The Linux ecosystem may become strictly
commercial and be used to hunt baby seals, but the BSD and Solaris
ecosystems are still systemd-free, are they not?

My hopes are still on gentoo (which made the sanest decision regarding
systemd), slackware (which may or may not resist it - it's all very
relative) and LFS, among a few other smaller distros.

Cheers,
Nuno
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Re: [DNG] OT: some ancient programming language history

[Nuno Magalhães]

On Mon, Jul 27, 2015 at 5:16 PM, Lars Noodén lars.noo...@gmail.com wrote:
 IIRC the Icon programming language had an exchange operator to swap the
 contents of two variables.

 a :=: b

C:

a = a ^ b;
b = a ^ b;
a = a ^ b;

Much more fun. Them :=: look like weird emoticons.



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Re: [DNG] Ashley Madison hack

[Nuno Magalhães]

You're forgetting SQL injection and XSS, to name a few. Wireshark in a
cybercafé pops into mind too plus a gazillion of windows
vulnerabilities.

I'm placing no bets on Whether-or-not-it-was-systemd and find that
discussion moot unless there's any solid details on the hack.

Does Devuan keep up to date with known CVEs in its repositories (for
apache and what not) would qualify as devual-related and relevant.

And i try not to project my a/moral views on others so the fact the
site is about adultery is totally irrelevant to me, from a
computer-security perspective.

But that's just me.

Cheers,
Nuno
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Re: [DNG] Ashley Madison hack

[Nuno Magalhães]

On Wed, Jul 22, 2015 at 11:45 PM, James Powell james4...@hotmail.com wrote:
 You'd have to really spoof PAM and fool the IDS to some extent, and you have
 Firewalls to get past.


You're assuming there is an IDS.
It may have been via an employee logging in to the company extranet
via cybercafé wireless or something...


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Re: [DNG] greybeards

[Nuno Magalhães]

Hi,

On Thu, Nov 12, 2015 at 7:56 PM, Hendrik Boom  wrote:
> On Thu, Nov 12, 2015 at 01:54:37PM -0500, Steve Litt wrote:
>> On Thu, 12 Nov 2015 16:57:19 +0300
>> Mitt Green  wrote:
>>
>> > ‎I wonder how many people that use Debian for quite long time (since
>> > 90s or the beginning of this millennium) really like systemd, GNOME3
>> > and all these controversial things. I haven't met any. And even more,
>> > most "greybeards" that I've seen oppose it. Seems like they don't have
>> > a right to vote.

I was gonna say "I!" but it's more like since 2000.

When i still paid much attention to the list, i.e. before the devs
decided to fork themselves into IRC, i always liked reading stuff
written by "greybeards". I have heard that term before applied to
people like Stallman (well he's not really the best example, but) and
to me it has always meant Old Wise Person. So i like reading Mr
Bloom's posts. I was unaware the same term can have a derrogatory
meaning (english not being my native language) and to those who use it
as such i can only point them to this example:

http://blog.pluralsight.com/give-me-those-old-time-programmers

which illustrates that people and tech may be old, but they're
certainly not antique.

Shouldn't this be OT?

Cheers,
Nuno
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Re: [DNG] greybeards

[Nuno Magalhães]

On Fri, Nov 13, 2015 at 4:32 PM, Rainer Weikusat
 wrote:
> (hence, having to recurr to someone who
> accidentally made it through the hiring process despite he was
> competent).

Maybe you meant "incompetent"? Either way, have fun.

Bye,
Nuno
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Re: [DNG] OT: Degree?

[Nuno Magalhães]

Gee i'm glad the world is united and there are no country-borders. Oh, wait...

On Thu, Nov 12, 2015 at 12:51 PM, Mitt Green  wrote:
> This is offtopic. I'm interested in whether college or university degree
> is necessary to work in IT industry (of any kind: admin, embedded systems
> developer, driver developer, mobile systems, consulting, hardware etc).

It depends on the country, the culture, the specific job and the
company. Here, you can do without a degree if you a) have a few years'
experience (although quantity is never quality but i'm not the one
hiring) or b) you have an interesting portfolio of some kind (you
commit a lot to an open source project, you have your own github
projects, etc). Or both.

If you have none, then a degree is almost mandatory.

>
> Questions:
> 1) Are there many people without degrees in the industry?
Mostly older folks i guess. Or helpdesk people.

> 2) Which companies (just for examples) don't require it?
I'd say government companies do require it, everything else is
per-company per-job basis.

> 3) Are there any hobbyists around here, that earn some money from coding?
Not i.

Cheers,
Nuno
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Re: [DNG] Systemd-free distros Was Re: Distrowatch

[Nuno Magalhães]

On Tue, Nov 3, 2015 at 6:28 AM, Edward Bartolo  wrote:
> I think, the majority of people opting to use a non-mainstream OS like
> GNU/Linux do so for a good reason, and those who use it to look geeky
> and to impress, simply cannot persevere when problems crop up and take
> a good deal of effort to resolve.

Ever heard of Ubuntu? Things magically solve themselves upon next
release... or just use their forums, 1 every 10 answers will point you
in the right directions.
Linux is no longer a command-line hydra to install. The
minimum-IT-knowledge bar, for better or for worse, is lowering.
Next-next-next-done in a luser-friendly UI is the new paradigm.
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Re: [DNG] Distrowatch

[Nuno Magalhães]

Unfortunately it only allows you to search by package, leaving you
with a lot of non-linux and inactive distros - and no ranking.
But it's a nice feature.
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Re: [DNG] Systemd-free distros Was Re: Distrowatch

[Nuno Magalhães]

On Tue, Nov 3, 2015 at 6:51 PM, Edward Bartolo  wrote:
> Here, you are talking to someone who developed a GRAPHICAL network
> manager. You see, I too created an application to help 'clueless'
> users. Ubuntu is not the only distribution to help newbies.

I tend to make a distinction between clueless and newbie, not just in
IT either, but that's just me. Driving vehicles comes to mind with the
new self-driven hype.
Point remains: most of the "less-tech-savy" users will probably not
even know what systemd is, or what the fuss is all about. It's all
been seamless, without hitch. The OS boots and gives them a GUI, done.
I don't remember saying Devuan is not about choice -- lemme check --
nope, didn't say that. Please quote me directly instead of trying to
imply i said something like «thinking Devuan will remove graphical
interfaces» -- didn't say that either.

There are my opinions, regardless of how many isolated cases you may
find to counter. Feel free to disagree. I'm done. This discussion is
pointless and fruitless.

Cheers,
Nuno
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Re: [DNG] Distrowatch

[Nuno Magalhães]

On Thu, Nov 5, 2015 at 8:49 AM,   wrote:
>
> It is very unlikely that Gentoo would switch to systemd.

I sure hope so, it and slackware are my current distros of choice ever
since Debian ceased to be, it's been fun.
However, i must point out that Gentoo does have systemd as an option
and this, IMHO, is the best approach i've seen so far to this whole
conundrum: default OpenRC, optional (if you choose), systemd.
Everybody's happy.

As for distros that'll never ever change to systemd... look to the
past and see what happened.

Cheers,
Nuno
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Re: [DNG] Distrowatch

[Nuno Magalhães]

On Fri, Nov 6, 2015 at 8:23 AM,  <miro.ro...@croatiafidelis.hr> wrote:
> On 151105-21:19-0500, Steve Litt wrote:
>> On Thu, 5 Nov 2015 21:18:42 +
>> Nuno Magalhães <nunomagalh...@eu.ipp.pt> wrote:
>>
>> > On Thu, Nov 5, 2015 at 8:49 AM,  <miro.ro...@croatiafidelis.hr> wrote:
>> > >
>> > > It is very unlikely that Gentoo would switch to systemd.
>> >
>> > I sure hope so, it and slackware are my current distros of choice ever
>> > since Debian ceased to be, it's been fun.
>> > However, i must point out that Gentoo does have systemd as an option
>> > and this, IMHO, is the best approach i've seen so far to this whole
>> > conundrum: default OpenRC, optional (if you choose), systemd.
>> > Everybody's happy.

...

>> I'd start by booting a System Rescue CD CD,
> the Gentoo based Live CD, that is.
>
>> hopefully booting it to RAM
>> so you can remove the CD.
> Sure, that's the recommended way...
>
>> Run it for a couple hours. If you hear any
>> beeps, it's hardware. Otherwise it was software and you can start from
>> there.

I'd say you guys are replying to the wrong thread (the laptop beeping
one, not this one?)..
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[DNG] LXC template

[Nuno Magalhães]

Greetings

Is there an LXC template for devuan? Or, has anyone tried modding the
one for debian? Is it a drop-in replacement?

Cheers,
Nuno
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Re: [DNG] LXC template

[Nuno Magalhães]

Answering self,

using the gentoo template as base:

-- MIRROR=${MIRROR:-http://http.debian.net/debian}
++ MIRROR=${MIRROR:-http://auto.mirror.devuan.org/merged/}

-- configure_debian_systemd $path $rootfs
++ #configure_debian_systemd $path $rootfs

lxc-create -n lxcdev -f /path/to/your/lxc.conf -t
/usr/share/lxc/templates/lxc-devuan
lxc-start -n lxcdev

myuser@lxcdev:~$ ps -ef|head -2
UIDPID  PPID  C STIME TTY  TIME CMD
root 1 0  0 14:12 ?00:00:00 /sbin/init

Uses about 378M, 135 packages installed.

However, i see these in top:
root20 1  0 14:12 ?00:00:00 /lib/systemd/systemd-udevd
root   128 1  0 14:21 ?00:00:00 /lib/systemd/systemd-journald

So it's a work in progress.

Cheers,
Nuno
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Re: [DNG] Devuan Constitu..?

[Nuno Magalhães]

Didn't the Debian Constitution ultimately help in screwing that distro
up? Or was it some other bureaucratic device?
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[DNG] How stable is the devuan migration?

[Nuno Magalhães]

Greetings,

I have a VPS running whezzy (7.8) which was a little behind updates
before systemd hit the fan. It's used as a LAMP stack and i'm
wondering how easy would it be to upgrade it to devuan.

I had a debian vm laying around and remember i did just that and IIRC
it wasn't a big deal. Does anyone have fresh/recent input/tips?

TIA,
Nuno
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Re: [DNG] Are my messages delivered?

[Nuno Magalhães]

On Gmail they're being marked as spam, along with GoLinux's.
I weed them out every now and then.
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Re: [DNG] lilo development has ended

[Nuno Magalhães]

On Tue, Jan 19, 2016 at 2:44 PM, dev1fanboy  wrote:
> So I assume lilo has stopped development altogether from the last release, 
> and we can look forward to only having the more complex grub2.

Slackware uses lilo by default, maybe someone there will tend to it.
Or the IoT crowd.
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Re: [DNG] How borged is D-bus?

[Nuno Magalhães]

On Fri, Mar 4, 2016 at 1:54 AM, Joel Roth  wrote:
> Being that
> so much complex code is built on dbus, Pottering and co
> guarantee that dbus will not be broken by updates in the
> protocol.

Meh, i don't buy their guarantees. Rephrasing: considering they're
focusing on sd-bus, is the borg collective maintaining D-bus? Or is it
still "free"? What are the init-inclinations of freedesktop.org?
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[DNG] How borged is D-bus?

[Nuno Magalhães]

Greetings,

Considering the systemd team has been focusing on sd-bus, how
systemd-free is dbus?

Cheers,
Nuno
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Re: [DNG] Debian is no longer GNU/Linux?

[Nuno Magalhães]

On Mon, Apr 11, 2016 at 8:25 PM, Hendrik Boom  wrote:
> A year or two ago they announced they were going to support BSD as
> another kernel.

IIRC they had previously supported BSD, had they not?


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Re: [DNG] Debian is no longer GNU/Linux?

[Nuno Magalhães]

On Mon, Apr 11, 2016 at 9:01 PM, Mitt Green  wrote:
> If you mean ubuntuBSD, it's made by a community.

As is a lot of everything else...?


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