Re: [dns-operations] New OARC Chat Platform

[Peter Koch]

Doug,

On Tue, Aug 25, 2020 at 07:17:22PM -0700, Doug Barton wrote:

> I'm particularly interested in what elements are available for the new
> platform that were not available for jabber.

how many OARC jabber conversations have you observed or engaged in over
the course of the last year?

-Peter
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Re: [dns-operations] New OARC Chat Platform

[Doug Barton]

On 8/25/20 6:12 AM, Keith Mitchell wrote:


Thanks everyone who has pointed out that to some extent this discussion
is a bikeshed 


FYI, my questions are not about what service you picked. I'm interested 
in how the decision was made. I would also think it interesting to see 
the cost/benefit matrix for the various options, including the security 
considerations. Surely that's not new work, as Ondřej suggested?


I'm particularly interested in what elements are available for the new 
platform that were not available for jabber.



I'll be the first to admin that OARC's systems engineering resources are
over-stretched, and that's why we took the decision to outsource this
service, which has successfully given us one less arcane thing to
manage. The out-sourcing agreement is with Mythic Beasts, a UK-based
cloud provider who offer managed Mattermost to other customers. As part
of the service agreement, Mythic signed up as OARC Supporters, which
binds them and the service to the same collective confidentiality terms
as OARC Members are bound by.


Thank you for providing those details.

Doug
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Re: [dns-operations] New OARC Chat Platform

[Matthew Pounsett]

On Tue, 25 Aug 2020 at 13:09, Fred Morris  wrote:

> That's a basic question which should be asked about any technology or
> service offering: why? what purpose is it intended to serve? By their
> actions clearly some people agree and some people disagree with me. Since
> it's a members-only service, maybe only members should care. I'm done with
> the discussion now.
>

It is not a member only service.

The jabber service which it is replacing has been open only to the listed
contacts of member organizations—about 300 people today.  While
requirements for member use drove most of the decision making around what
software we would use, using something more flexible, usable, and easy to
manage than jabber meant that opening it up to the wider community was an
easy get, and so we did.

If this were a member only service, we would not have made an announcement
about it on dns-operations, and would not have enabled open sign up in the
software.

The purpose it's intended to serve has already been discussed up-thread;
there is a perceived need for lower latency discussions than email
affords.  We have had requests from a couple of different segments of the
community over the past many months, especially during the current
lockdown, to provide a way for people to have those discussions.
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Re: [dns-operations] New OARC Chat Platform

[Warren Kumari]

On Tue, Aug 25, 2020 at 12:10 PM Paul Ebersman
 wrote:
>
> warren> We've often discussed if the tools are useful / doing what we
> warren> want. My concern with this is that it requires yet another app
> warren> installed for people to communicate;
>
> I'm one of the first to bitch about this when I have to install yet
> another app.
>
> However, mattermost works fine in a browser, no app required. I was on
> firefox for the last OARC virtual meeting and had no issues with that
> method.

Thank you, that helps. I think that much of my discomfort stems from
the fact that this felt like "We, the leadership have made a decision
for you, the community".
There are many many places where we want the board / org to make
decisions on our behalf, but for maintaining a sense of community,
having input on how the community interacts and discusses things feels
important...
After some reflection, I've realized that I'm not actually annoyed by
having to run another app, it is that I feel that I / we were not
asked (and here is where someone will point at the long thread where
this was discussed, and I look like even more of a jackass :-)).

W

>
> dougb> I ask because OARC is taking on a lot, and from my naive and
> dougb> distant view seems to have developed a bit of NIH
> dougb> syndrome. Looking at the migration of dnsviz for example, it's
> dougb> not clear to me why OARC volunteered to take that project on
> dougb> without adequate resourcing. And subsequently it wasn't clear why
> dougb> cloud solutions weren't utilized, which I imagine could have been
> dougb> cheaper, and faster. To my knowledge the historical data is still
> dougb> missing, is that correct?
>
> I'd guess you're not a member and don't get the detailed breakdown of
> this in the member reports? Short version is that many of the decisions
> (including why cloud frequently isn't an option) boil down to member
> survey responses and restrictions in the data sharing agreements.
>
> Keith and the OARC staff evaluate choices based on these restrictions
> and then solicit member input before making final decisions.
>
> What you are seeing is not unilateral decisions by the staff but the
> staff implementing membership wishes.



-- 
I don't think the execution is relevant when it was obviously a bad
idea in the first place.
This is like putting rabid weasels in your pants, and later expressing
regret at having chosen those particular rabid weasels and that pair
of pants.
   ---maf
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Re: [dns-operations] New OARC Chat Platform

[Fred Morris]

That's a basic question which should be asked about any technology or 
service offering: why? what purpose is it intended to serve? By their 
actions clearly some people agree and some people disagree with me. Since 
it's a members-only service, maybe only members should care. I'm done with 
the discussion now.


On Tue, 25 Aug 2020, Jim Reid wrote:

On 25 Aug 2020, at 03:30, Fred Morris  wrote:

I think the question has to be: why would someone be joining this chat channel 
and who would they be?

[...]
There’s no justification for this outburst of shed-painting.___
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Re: [dns-operations] New OARC Chat Platform

[Fred Morris]

Clearly anything can be misunderstood, and I've been around technology 
long enough to know that technology choices are hardly rational all of the 
time.


On Tue, 25 Aug 2020, Jim Reid wrote:

On 25 Aug 2020, at 03:30, Fred Morris  wrote:

I think the question has to be: why would someone be joining this chat channel 
and who would they be?

[...]
There’s no justification for this outburst of shed-painting.


Know your customer. Really. This should be a basic tenet. I see mailing 
lists mentioned on the OARC homepage; I don't see chat. It's members-only. 
Ok, good, I learned something. Is it a selling point for OARC membership 
(it's listed in member benefits)? If it is, then keeping its charter, 
who's on it, and characterization of the kinds of conversations and 
problem solving it fosters and enables a secret from prospective members 
is a perfectly rational sales strategy (note the use of sarcasm).


Quite simply, we should trust Matt and his colleagues to make sensible 
decisions [...]


I do. But while there are plenty of "perfectly good" airplanes flying 
around there are probably zero without defects or flaws.


(This list is open to nonmembers. If the thread was intended for member 
discussion only then sorry, didn't see the classification stamp.)


--

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Re: [dns-operations] New OARC Chat Platform

[Paul Ebersman]

warren> We've often discussed if the tools are useful / doing what we
warren> want. My concern with this is that it requires yet another app
warren> installed for people to communicate;

I'm one of the first to bitch about this when I have to install yet
another app.

However, mattermost works fine in a browser, no app required. I was on
firefox for the last OARC virtual meeting and had no issues with that
method.

dougb> I ask because OARC is taking on a lot, and from my naive and
dougb> distant view seems to have developed a bit of NIH
dougb> syndrome. Looking at the migration of dnsviz for example, it's
dougb> not clear to me why OARC volunteered to take that project on
dougb> without adequate resourcing. And subsequently it wasn't clear why
dougb> cloud solutions weren't utilized, which I imagine could have been
dougb> cheaper, and faster. To my knowledge the historical data is still
dougb> missing, is that correct?

I'd guess you're not a member and don't get the detailed breakdown of
this in the member reports? Short version is that many of the decisions
(including why cloud frequently isn't an option) boil down to member
survey responses and restrictions in the data sharing agreements.

Keith and the OARC staff evaluate choices based on these restrictions
and then solicit member input before making final decisions.

What you are seeing is not unilateral decisions by the staff but the
staff implementing membership wishes.
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Re: [dns-operations] New OARC Chat Platform

[Ondřej Surý]

Warren,

I am not telling you “what you want”, I am simply expressing as DNS-OARC board 
member what I believe is usefully spent time by OARC president and OARC staff. 
The decision was made knowingly that it would not be first choice for 
everybody, but it would be a decent choice for everyone in the end, and Keith 
provided solid arguments. It’s my duty as a board member to stand by him.

If the majority OARC members want the OARC president to spent time on doing 
more than extensive analysis than the one provided, we could certainly discuss 
what level of trust and independence there should be, but I would suggest to 
just go with what has been provided now and evaluate the choice after we all 
have experience using Mattermost for a while.

Ondřej 
--
Ondřej Surý  (He/Him)

> On 25. 8. 2020, at 17:12, Warren Kumari  wrote:
> 
> On Tue, Aug 25, 2020 at 10:44 AM Ondřej Surý  wrote:
>> 
 On 25. 8. 2020, at 15:52, Barry Raveendran Greene  
 wrote:
>>> 
>>> Can we see the security risk assessment that OARC has done with Slack? That 
>>> would be contrasted with the parallel risk assessment for MatterMost.
>> 
>> This would neither be a time well spent by the OARC team that has
>> a limited resources that would be better spent on actually working
>> on the primary OARC missing.
>> 
>> I don’t see a strong need to linger on the topic any further,
>> the decision was made by the OARC team and sanctioned by the OARC board.
>> 
>> What useful purpose does this have?  We have never questioned the choice
>> of tools by the OARC team, so we should not start doing so now.
> 
> We've often discussed if the tools are useful / doing what we want. My
> concern with this is that it requires yet another app installed for
> people to communicate; by doing this OARC is taking a solution which a
> number of people were using (Jabber), and said "Nope, you have to go
> install yet another application" - unlike other OARC tools this isn't
> "use your existing tools like dig and a browsers", it's "go and
> install yet another app". Also, some organizations lock down what apps
> can run on their corporate machines
> 
> I've already got (at least):
> 1: Adium for Jabber (IETF, OARC, and a number of other services)
> 2: Slack (12+ workspaces)
> 3: Telegram
> 4: Wire
> 5: Textual (IRC)
> 6: WhatsApp
> 7: iMessage
> 8: Skype
> 
> https://xkcd.com/1810/
> 
>> This
>> is a rathole that nobody really wants to go in.
> 
> Ah, excellent. Just like with the above decision, thank you for
> telling me what I want...
> 
> Message received,
> W
> 
>> 
>> Ondrej
>> --
>> Ondřej Surý (He/Him)
>> ond...@sury.org
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> ___
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> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> I don't think the execution is relevant when it was obviously a bad
> idea in the first place.
> This is like putting rabid weasels in your pants, and later expressing
> regret at having chosen those particular rabid weasels and that pair
> of pants.
>   ---maf

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Re: [dns-operations] New OARC Chat Platform

[Warren Kumari]

On Tue, Aug 25, 2020 at 10:44 AM Ondřej Surý  wrote:
>
> > On 25. 8. 2020, at 15:52, Barry Raveendran Greene  wrote:
> >
> > Can we see the security risk assessment that OARC has done with Slack? That 
> > would be contrasted with the parallel risk assessment for MatterMost.
>
> This would neither be a time well spent by the OARC team that has
> a limited resources that would be better spent on actually working
> on the primary OARC missing.
>
> I don’t see a strong need to linger on the topic any further,
> the decision was made by the OARC team and sanctioned by the OARC board.
>
> What useful purpose does this have?  We have never questioned the choice
> of tools by the OARC team, so we should not start doing so now.

We've often discussed if the tools are useful / doing what we want. My
concern with this is that it requires yet another app installed for
people to communicate; by doing this OARC is taking a solution which a
number of people were using (Jabber), and said "Nope, you have to go
install yet another application" - unlike other OARC tools this isn't
"use your existing tools like dig and a browsers", it's "go and
install yet another app". Also, some organizations lock down what apps
can run on their corporate machines

I've already got (at least):
1: Adium for Jabber (IETF, OARC, and a number of other services)
2: Slack (12+ workspaces)
3: Telegram
4: Wire
5: Textual (IRC)
6: WhatsApp
7: iMessage
8: Skype

https://xkcd.com/1810/

> This
> is a rathole that nobody really wants to go in.

Ah, excellent. Just like with the above decision, thank you for
telling me what I want...

Message received,
W

>
> Ondrej
> --
> Ondřej Surý (He/Him)
> ond...@sury.org
>
>
>
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-- 
I don't think the execution is relevant when it was obviously a bad
idea in the first place.
This is like putting rabid weasels in your pants, and later expressing
regret at having chosen those particular rabid weasels and that pair
of pants.
   ---maf

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Re: [dns-operations] New OARC Chat Platform

[Ondřej Surý]

> On 25. 8. 2020, at 15:52, Barry Raveendran Greene  wrote:
> 
> Can we see the security risk assessment that OARC has done with Slack? That 
> would be contrasted with the parallel risk assessment for MatterMost. 

This would neither be a time well spent by the OARC team that has
a limited resources that would be better spent on actually working
on the primary OARC missing.

I don’t see a strong need to linger on the topic any further,
the decision was made by the OARC team and sanctioned by the OARC board.

What useful purpose does this have?  We have never questioned the choice
of tools by the OARC team, so we should not start doing so now.  This
is a rathole that nobody really wants to go in.

Ondrej
--
Ondřej Surý (He/Him)
ond...@sury.org



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Re: [dns-operations] New OARC Chat Platform

[Barry Raveendran Greene]

>> On Aug 25, 2020, at 06:44, Keith Mitchell  wrote:
> Slack logs everything, and the only confidentiality guarantees you get
> are their standard click-through contract. Once you are signed up the
> relationship is sticky and hard to migrate away from should there be issues.

Is this validated? I’m in dialog with Slack to do a 2020 update of this 
document:

Slack Security Questions for Industry Trust Groups
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1z5bRMBNCE0NG8MKQ8rz4KXMWy76qskf1eYzumZVruGc/edit

Can we see the security risk assessment that OARC has done with Slack? That 
would be contrasted with the parallel risk assessment for MatterMost. 

This is not in defense of Slack. This is putting forward that too many times 
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Re: [dns-operations] New OARC Chat Platform

[Keith Mitchell]

On 8/25/20 4:26 AM, Ondřej Surý wrote:
> The details has been provided on OARC members list, so I’ll let
> Keith and Matt to decide the level of detail to provide, but the
> service is being hosted by a professional organization and is subject
> to confidentiality agreement. OARC Mattermost (the software) is not 
> being run by OARC staff.

Thanks everyone who has pointed out that to some extent this discussion
is a bikeshed - there are many, many chat platforms out there, and it's
simply impossible to choose one that's going to satisfy everyone. It was
clear however that our existing jabber platform was satisfying fewer and
fewer people, and that we needed to replace it with something more
modern and appealing.

A major consideration on adopting an open platform like Mattermost vs a
closed proprietary platform like Slack are the specific requirements in
the OARC Participation Agreement for sharing information collectively
between OARC Members on a confidential basis.

Slack logs everything, and the only confidentiality guarantees you get
are their standard click-through contract. Once you are signed up the
relationship is sticky and hard to migrate away from should there be issues.

The other downside of Slack is the cost - even with nonprofit discount
on their service, for our community of 300+ users, the managed
Mattermost solution was vastly cheaper. We can scale Mattermost without
having to worry about pay-per-play on users/team/channels/messages.

Using an open-source platform allows us the *choice* of self-hosting vs
outsourced, and our own Member Participation Agreement-compliant
policies on confidentiality and retention. While these may be stronger
than is required for an open community platform, it does not make sense
to run different platforms for Members vs everyone else.

I'll be the first to admin that OARC's systems engineering resources are
over-stretched, and that's why we took the decision to outsource this
service, which has successfully given us one less arcane thing to
manage. The out-sourcing agreement is with Mythic Beasts, a UK-based
cloud provider who offer managed Mattermost to other customers. As part
of the service agreement, Mythic signed up as OARC Supporters, which
binds them and the service to the same collective confidentiality terms
as OARC Members are bound by.

There's also many other organizations in our space using Mattermost
already (e.g. CAIDA, EFF, ISC, Mozilla,...), and it feels like good
company to keep.

Finally, now that we've moved to an openly-available platform, we have
the flexibility to keep that outsourced, change providers, or in-source
as appropriate, should we decide to do so in future.

Keith



>> On 25. 8. 2020, at 8:19, Doug Barton  
>> wrote:
>> 
>> Is this something that OARC is operating and maintaining, or is it 
>> something that you're acting as a conduit for? The former would be 
>> included in my definition of "rolling your own." Are there 
>> seriously no existing communications platforms anywhere that 
>> provide adequate security?
>> 
>> I don't intend this as armchair quarterbacking, I'm looking at it 
>> from the standpoint of whether or not putting resources into OARC 
>> is a good investment. Certainly the people involved, and the 
>> intentions of those people, are top notch. But without good 
>> decision making to support those intentions it's hard to justify 
>> contributing additional resources. Of course, that's just my 
>> opinion, and I hope that I'm wrong.
>> 
>> On 8/24/20 10:00 PM, Ondřej Surý wrote:
>>> Doug, that’s *exactly* what OARC is doing. It’s not rolling
>>> “own” platform, it’s using existing platform that many existing
>>> teams are using as a communication platform. The added
>>> requirement for choosing a chat platform was a strong data
>>> protection. This is something that centralized platform (like
>>> Slack) can’t offer. Mattermost is a solid competitor on the
>>> market and I am glad that OARC moved away from Jabber both as a
>>> board member and OARC member.

 While I think it's great that you're offering this service, I 
 can't help asking why you're rolling your own instead of 
 utilizing any of the many chat services that already exist? 
 Slack comes immediately to mind, but it's far from the only 
 commonly used platform at the moment.
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Re: [dns-operations] New OARC Chat Platform

[Roy Arends]

+1

> On 25 Aug 2020, at 10:13, Jim Reid  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
>> On 25 Aug 2020, at 03:30, Fred Morris  wrote:
>> 
>> I think the question has to be: why would someone be joining this chat 
>> channel and who would they be?
> 
> No. The question should be why are we having this silly discussion?
> 
> There’s no justification for this outburst of shed-painting.
> 
> Quite simply, we should trust Matt and his colleagues to make sensible 
> decisions about the tools they provide for DNS-OARC. A lot of factors go into 
> those decisions. Some of them are complicated. Others depend on detail that 
> isn’t apparent to the membership - GDPR compliance or commercially sensistive 
> info from suppliers for instance. IMO, we should leave Matt, Denesh, etc to 
> get on with it. If they screw up or the chosen platform(s) turn out to be 
> unsatisfactory, that’s a discussion for the board and/or AGM.
> 
> FWIW, I don’t care what chat platform is used. Provided it runs on a server 
> that sits in a rack that’s painted yellow.

I prefer “tuscan” or “daffodil” over yellow, but I can live with it :-)

+1 on the rest of your message

Roy
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Re: [dns-operations] New OARC Chat Platform

[Jim Reid]

> On 25 Aug 2020, at 03:30, Fred Morris  wrote:
> 
> I think the question has to be: why would someone be joining this chat 
> channel and who would they be?

No. The question should be why are we having this silly discussion?

There’s no justification for this outburst of shed-painting.

Quite simply, we should trust Matt and his colleagues to make sensible 
decisions about the tools they provide for DNS-OARC. A lot of factors go into 
those decisions. Some of them are complicated. Others depend on detail that 
isn’t apparent to the membership - GDPR compliance or commercially sensistive 
info from suppliers for instance. IMO, we should leave Matt, Denesh, etc to get 
on with it. If they screw up or the chosen platform(s) turn out to be 
unsatisfactory, that’s a discussion for the board and/or AGM.

FWIW, I don’t care what chat platform is used. Provided it runs on a server 
that sits in a rack that’s painted yellow.


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Re: [dns-operations] New OARC Chat Platform

[Ondřej Surý]

The details has been provided on OARC members list, so I’ll let Keith and Matt 
to decide the level of detail to provide, but the service is being hosted by a 
professional organization and is subject to confidentiality agreement. OARC 
Mattermost (the software) is not being run by OARC staff.

Ondrej
--
Ondřej Surý (He/Him)
ond...@sury.org

> On 25. 8. 2020, at 8:19, Doug Barton  wrote:
> 
> Is this something that OARC is operating and maintaining, or is it something 
> that you're acting as a conduit for? The former would be included in my 
> definition of "rolling your own." Are there seriously no existing 
> communications platforms anywhere that provide adequate security?
> 
> I ask because OARC is taking on a lot, and from my naive and distant view 
> seems to have developed a bit of NIH syndrome. Looking at the migration of 
> dnsviz for example, it's not clear to me why OARC volunteered to take that 
> project on without adequate resourcing. And subsequently it wasn't clear why 
> cloud solutions weren't utilized, which I imagine could have been cheaper, 
> and faster. To my knowledge the historical data is still missing, is that 
> correct?
> 
> I don't intend this as armchair quarterbacking, I'm looking at it from the 
> standpoint of whether or not putting resources into OARC is a good 
> investment. Certainly the people involved, and the intentions of those 
> people, are top notch. But without good decision making to support those 
> intentions it's hard to justify contributing additional resources. Of course, 
> that's just my opinion, and I hope that I'm wrong.
> 
> Doug
> 
> 
> 
> On 8/24/20 10:00 PM, Ondřej Surý wrote:
>> Doug,
>> that’s *exactly* what OARC is doing. It’s not rolling “own” platform, it’s 
>> using existing platform that many existing teams are using as a 
>> communication platform. The added requirement for choosing a chat platform 
>> was a strong data protection. This is something that centralized platform 
>> (like Slack) can’t offer. Mattermost is a solid competitor on the market and 
>> I am glad that OARC moved away from Jabber both as a board member and OARC 
>> member.
>> Ondrej
>> --
>> Ondřej Surý  (He/Him)
>>> On 25. 8. 2020, at 1:43, Doug Barton  wrote:
>>> 
>>> On 8/20/20 1:54 PM, Matthew Pounsett wrote:
 Hello everyone.
 DNS OARC is pleased to announce that our new community chat server is open 
 for access, augmenting the mailing lists we operate.
 For many years, OARC has been operating a Jabber service which has been 
 available to OARC Members.  We are replacing that service with a more 
 modern chat platform using Mattermost.  OARC’s chat service is available 
 for open signup at .
>>> 
>>> While I think it's great that you're offering this service, I can't help 
>>> asking why you're rolling your own instead of utilizing any of the many 
>>> chat services that already exist? Slack comes immediately to mind, but it's 
>>> far from the only commonly used platform at the moment.
>>> 
>>> Doug
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Re: [dns-operations] New OARC Chat Platform

[Doug Barton]

Is this something that OARC is operating and maintaining, or is it 
something that you're acting as a conduit for? The former would be 
included in my definition of "rolling your own." Are there seriously no 
existing communications platforms anywhere that provide adequate security?


I ask because OARC is taking on a lot, and from my naive and distant 
view seems to have developed a bit of NIH syndrome. Looking at the 
migration of dnsviz for example, it's not clear to me why OARC 
volunteered to take that project on without adequate resourcing. And 
subsequently it wasn't clear why cloud solutions weren't utilized, which 
I imagine could have been cheaper, and faster. To my knowledge the 
historical data is still missing, is that correct?


I don't intend this as armchair quarterbacking, I'm looking at it from 
the standpoint of whether or not putting resources into OARC is a good 
investment. Certainly the people involved, and the intentions of those 
people, are top notch. But without good decision making to support those 
intentions it's hard to justify contributing additional resources. Of 
course, that's just my opinion, and I hope that I'm wrong.


Doug



On 8/24/20 10:00 PM, Ondřej Surý wrote:

Doug,

that’s *exactly* what OARC is doing. It’s not rolling “own” platform, it’s 
using existing platform that many existing teams are using as a communication 
platform. The added requirement for choosing a chat platform was a strong data 
protection. This is something that centralized platform (like Slack) can’t 
offer. Mattermost is a solid competitor on the market and I am glad that OARC 
moved away from Jabber both as a board member and OARC member.

Ondrej
--
Ondřej Surý  (He/Him)


On 25. 8. 2020, at 1:43, Doug Barton  wrote:

On 8/20/20 1:54 PM, Matthew Pounsett wrote:

Hello everyone.
DNS OARC is pleased to announce that our new community chat server is open for 
access, augmenting the mailing lists we operate.
For many years, OARC has been operating a Jabber service which has been available to 
OARC Members.  We are replacing that service with a more modern chat platform using 
Mattermost.  OARC’s chat service is available for open signup at 
.


While I think it's great that you're offering this service, I can't help asking 
why you're rolling your own instead of utilizing any of the many chat services 
that already exist? Slack comes immediately to mind, but it's far from the only 
commonly used platform at the moment.

Doug
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Re: [dns-operations] New OARC Chat Platform

[Ondřej Surý]

OARC has provided the Jabber server for as long as I remember. There are things 
where a communica without delay is much better platform than email.

As an example the open-source DNS vendors have number of channels where we 
regularly chat about issues we have in common, but we also use specific 
channels when working on Internet Drafts.

Internally, the various OARC teams, program committee and board use the 
platform to talk to each other.

It’s not required to use the chat platform, but it certainly has its use.

Ondrej
--
Ondřej Surý  (He/Him)

> On 25. 8. 2020, at 4:59, Fred Morris  wrote:
> 
> I think the question has to be: why would someone be joining this chat 
> channel and who would they be?

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Re: [dns-operations] New OARC Chat Platform

[Ondřej Surý]

Doug,

that’s *exactly* what OARC is doing. It’s not rolling “own” platform, it’s 
using existing platform that many existing teams are using as a communication 
platform. The added requirement for choosing a chat platform was a strong data 
protection. This is something that centralized platform (like Slack) can’t 
offer. Mattermost is a solid competitor on the market and I am glad that OARC 
moved away from Jabber both as a board member and OARC member.

Ondrej
--
Ondřej Surý  (He/Him)

> On 25. 8. 2020, at 1:43, Doug Barton  wrote:
> 
> On 8/20/20 1:54 PM, Matthew Pounsett wrote:
>> Hello everyone.
>> DNS OARC is pleased to announce that our new community chat server is open 
>> for access, augmenting the mailing lists we operate.
>> For many years, OARC has been operating a Jabber service which has been 
>> available to OARC Members.  We are replacing that service with a more modern 
>> chat platform using Mattermost.  OARC’s chat service is available for open 
>> signup at .
> 
> While I think it's great that you're offering this service, I can't help 
> asking why you're rolling your own instead of utilizing any of the many chat 
> services that already exist? Slack comes immediately to mind, but it's far 
> from the only commonly used platform at the moment.
> 
> Doug
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Re: [dns-operations] New OARC Chat Platform

[Fred Morris]

I think the question has to be: why would someone be joining this chat 
channel and who would they be?


I am not a member of any OARC chat channel; the mailing list is immediate 
enough for me. It also has durability. I know some chat platforms claim 
durability, but /that's only if you're a member/. What if you're looking 
for THE venue? How will you find it? How much time do you have?


How durable do you want your chat to be? Are people supposed to "search 
chat"? What is that? Why should it strive for durability?


I have specific issues with Slack, in particular surrounding the inability 
to hide my "onlineness" from one stakeholder group versus another (they 
might not be in the same "fire"). No, we are not better, together.


Slack, and the "commonly used platforms" are mostly heavily marketed and 
hoping for that magic "disruption" a.k.a. "market dominance".


OARC, you keep on being your bad selves.

On Mon, 24 Aug 2020, Doug Barton wrote:
[...] Slack comes immediately to mind, but it's far 
from the only commonly used platform at the moment.


--

Fred Morris

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Re: [dns-operations] New OARC Chat Platform

[Mehmet Akcin]

I agree slack or discord is much easier, or simple irc channel

On Mon, Aug 24, 2020 at 16:21 Doug Barton  wrote:

> On 8/20/20 1:54 PM, Matthew Pounsett wrote:
>
> > Hello everyone.
>
> >
>
> > DNS OARC is pleased to announce that our new community chat server is
> open for access, augmenting the mailing lists we operate.
>
> >
>
> > For many years, OARC has been operating a Jabber service which has been
> available to OARC Members.  We are replacing that service with a more
> modern chat platform using Mattermost.  OARC’s chat service is available
> for open signup at .
>
>
>
> While I think it's great that you're offering this service, I can't help
>
> asking why you're rolling your own instead of utilizing any of the many
>
> chat services that already exist? Slack comes immediately to mind, but
>
> it's far from the only commonly used platform at the moment.
>
>
>
> Doug
>
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>
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Re: [dns-operations] New OARC Chat Platform

[Doug Barton]

On 8/20/20 1:54 PM, Matthew Pounsett wrote:

Hello everyone.

DNS OARC is pleased to announce that our new community chat server is open for 
access, augmenting the mailing lists we operate.

For many years, OARC has been operating a Jabber service which has been available to 
OARC Members.  We are replacing that service with a more modern chat platform using 
Mattermost.  OARC’s chat service is available for open signup at 
.


While I think it's great that you're offering this service, I can't help 
asking why you're rolling your own instead of utilizing any of the many 
chat services that already exist? Slack comes immediately to mind, but 
it's far from the only commonly used platform at the moment.


Doug
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[dns-operations] New OARC Chat Platform

[Matthew Pounsett]

Hello everyone.

DNS OARC is pleased to announce that our new community chat server is open for 
access, augmenting the mailing lists we operate.

For many years, OARC has been operating a Jabber service which has been 
available to OARC Members.  We are replacing that service with a more modern 
chat platform using Mattermost.  OARC’s chat service is available for open 
signup at .

Anyone wishing to sign up and use the platform for discussion of the DNS is 
welcome to do so.  Please be reminded that all use of OARC services is subject 
to OARC’s Code of Conduct Policy, available at 
.

Mattermost is open source software, and has open source clients available for 
all major desktop and mobile platforms.  Information on Mattermost client 
software is available at .

Mattermost makes a number of Teams available on a chat server.  In OARC’s case, 
we have the Members and Community teams available for use.  Anyone in the DNS 
community is welcome to join our Community team and use it for discussion of 
the DNS.

The Members team is open to all OARC Member and Supporter contacts.  
Non-members who would like access to that team are welcome to contact 
ad...@dns-oarc.net for information about how to become a member.

Users of the chat service are welcome to create any public or private channels 
they find useful for discussing DNS community issues, on either the Community 
or Members teams.  OARC will be monitoring team creation and activity levels in 
order to watch for abuse and do basic house keeping, but otherwise have no 
plans to monitor channel content.  If participants witness any behaviour they 
feel is in violation of OARC’s code of conduct, we ask that it be brought to 
our attention.

If anyone has any questions about the chat service, please feel free to email 
us at ad...@dns-oarc.net, or find us on Mattermost.  We hope everyone finds 
this service useful for communicating with the rest of the DNS community.

Matt Pounsett
DNS-OARC Systems Engineering





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