[DNSOP] Batch Multiple Query Packet
I am interesting to find information about past or possible current interest regarding the support of a Batch single call of multiple query packets. If it doesn't already exist or not considered in the past as an unfeasible concept, I am interest in seeing if this is something worth pursuing. Technical Background reasoning. With the advent of new protocols, especially those offering a domain policy construct, the TXT record is used as the fastest entry point with the widest support for query resolution. Yet there are (at least were) technical concerns that this not serve to benefit DNS for large scale usage, therefore considerations are giving to include a migration path to use new registration of RR types. This migration path comes with the recognition for a short term overhead of using a dual type query concept and long term hope for the new RR type to become the non-overhead single query satisfying result. The overall issue is two folds: 1) one where publishers may have to redundantly create two records and the DNS resolvers will always have to do a two queries to maximize widest support, and 2) The continued possible dearth of DNS servers (see RFC 3597 Handling of Unknown DNS Resource Record (RR) Types) that do not support unnamed RR types and/or the recursion requirement. If DNS server offered support for a Batch Query of multiple packets under a single call, this may help with the above migration overhead concerns. Is this something worth pursuing as a new I-D for DNS servers? Thanks -- Hector Santos, CTO http://www.santronics.com http://santronics.blogspot.com ___ DNSOP mailing list DNSOP@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop
Re: [DNSOP] Batch Multiple Query Packet
Hector Santos wrote: I am interesting to find information about past or possible current interest regarding the support of a Batch single call of multiple query packets. If it doesn't already exist or not considered in the past as an unfeasible concept, I am interest in seeing if this is something worth pursuing. Having a query requesting multiple RRTYPEs is a bad idea, because only some of the RRTYPEs may be found in cache. But, it's OK to have separate queries for each RRTYPEs in a single packet. Use TCP or try to extend UDP. However, this may help with the above migration overhead concerns. I don't think so. Masataka Ohta ___ DNSOP mailing list DNSOP@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop
Re: [DNSOP] Batch Multiple Query Packet
On 2012-02-28 12:27 AM, Edward Lewis wrote: At 13:35 -0500 2/27/12, Hector Santos wrote: If it doesn't already exist or not considered in the past as an unfeasible concept, I am interest in seeing if this is something worth pursuing. One (not the only, Ohta replied with another) of the oft-cited obstacles is the presence of only one RCODE field in the packet. (What if one query would be NXDOMAIN and the other has an answer?) indeed, this is why multiple queries were not supported in the original DNS, and it's why EDNS doesn't have it either. the number of signalling bits needed to explain what went on with the multiple queries made folks' heads explode. the logic is still online if you want to see it: http://nsa.vix.com/~vixie/edns1.txt. ___ DNSOP mailing list DNSOP@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop
Re: [DNSOP] Batch Multiple Query Packet
On 2012-02-27, at 19:49, Paul Vixie wrote: On 2012-02-28 12:27 AM, Edward Lewis wrote: At 13:35 -0500 2/27/12, Hector Santos wrote: If it doesn't already exist or not considered in the past as an unfeasible concept, I am interest in seeing if this is something worth pursuing. One (not the only, Ohta replied with another) of the oft-cited obstacles is the presence of only one RCODE field in the packet. (What if one query would be NXDOMAIN and the other has an answer?) indeed, this is why multiple queries were not supported in the original DNS, and it's why EDNS doesn't have it either. Isn't that really an argument against multiple responses being carried in the same packet, rather than multiple queries? I'll observe that there are exciting amplification opportunities in a world where a single packet could trigger multiple large responses, though :-) Joe ___ DNSOP mailing list DNSOP@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop
Re: [DNSOP] Batch Multiple Query Packet
At 16:55 -0800 2/27/12, Joe Abley wrote: I'll observe that there are exciting amplification opportunities in a world where a single packet could trigger multiple large responses, though :-) Yes, please, let's not. ;) Size amplification is already a problem. And, this would make monitoring extra hard (how many responses were supposed to be sent?) and, well, just try to write the re-assembly code, trying to collect the responses to the original API call. An especially unpleasant place in the afterlife is reserved for whomever enables this. -- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Edward Lewis NeuStarYou can leave a voice message at +1-571-434-5468 2012...time to reuse those 1984 calendars! ___ DNSOP mailing list DNSOP@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop
Re: [DNSOP] Batch Multiple Query Packet
On 27 Feb 2012, at 18:35, Hector Santos hsan...@isdg.net wrote: I am interesting to find information about past or possible current interest regarding the support of a Batch single call of multiple query packets. It isn't necessary to add protocol support, since you can already send multiple concurrent queries on a single socket. Tony. -- f.anthony.n.finch d...@dotat.at http://dotat.at/ ___ DNSOP mailing list DNSOP@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop
Re: [DNSOP] Batch Multiple Query Packet
Paul Vixie wrote: On 2012-02-28 12:27 AM, Edward Lewis wrote: At 13:35 -0500 2/27/12, Hector Santos wrote: If it doesn't already exist or not considered in the past as an unfeasible concept, I am interest in seeing if this is something worth pursuing. One (not the only, Ohta replied with another) of the oft-cited obstacles is the presence of only one RCODE field in the packet. (What if one query would be NXDOMAIN and the other has an answer?) indeed, this is why multiple queries were not supported in the original DNS, and it's why EDNS doesn't have it either. the number of signalling bits needed to explain what went on with the multiple queries made folks' heads explode. the logic is still online if you want to see it: http://nsa.vix.com/~vixie/edns1.txt. Thanks Paul. Great material. I'm just winging it at this point. First, I was focusing on the batching of related types, i.e. a protocol with new RR type but has an initial default intro record and fallback to TXT. The goal is to have a single call that will yield a managed result to assist with the current concerns and waste associated with the migration of TXT to the new RR type usage. Second, I considered there is no room for a packet count, but I was thinking of simply bundling two separate packets, i.e. 2*RR for the UPD send and how would the servers read this. If DNS servers will barf, then never mind. :) But if its offers a way to perform this concept with no breakage, perhaps the server will just read the first one and act on it or it will process the residual packet as well. Of course, the client will still need to manage the responses with all the potential delays. Again, just winging it. I don't like kludges. :) -- Hector Santos, CTO http://www.santronics.com http://santronics.blogspot.com ___ DNSOP mailing list DNSOP@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop
Re: [DNSOP] Batch Multiple Query Packet
Hello, By single call, do you mean : ? single query packet (holding multiple questions) ? (I think this was part of EDNS1) ? single TCP session ? Where I believe there is no statement that forbids sending multiple, subsequent, queries over a single TCP connection. -- batching multiple queries over a single TCP session is already allowed. Beware ! Some name server implementations have implicit, sometimes configurable, maximum number of queries they accept over a single TCP session. Kind regards, Marc Lampo Security Officer EURid (for .eu) -Original Message- From: Hector Santos [mailto:hsan...@isdg.net] Sent: 27 February 2012 07:36 PM To: dnsop@ietf.org Subject: [DNSOP] Batch Multiple Query Packet I am interesting to find information about past or possible current interest regarding the support of a Batch single call of multiple query packets. If it doesn't already exist or not considered in the past as an unfeasible concept, I am interest in seeing if this is something worth pursuing. Technical Background reasoning. With the advent of new protocols, especially those offering a domain policy construct, the TXT record is used as the fastest entry point with the widest support for query resolution. Yet there are (at least were) technical concerns that this not serve to benefit DNS for large scale usage, therefore considerations are giving to include a migration path to use new registration of RR types. This migration path comes with the recognition for a short term overhead of using a dual type query concept and long term hope for the new RR type to become the non-overhead single query satisfying result. The overall issue is two folds: 1) one where publishers may have to redundantly create two records and the DNS resolvers will always have to do a two queries to maximize widest support, and 2) The continued possible dearth of DNS servers (see RFC 3597 Handling of Unknown DNS Resource Record (RR) Types) that do not support unnamed RR types and/or the recursion requirement. If DNS server offered support for a Batch Query of multiple packets under a single call, this may help with the above migration overhead concerns. Is this something worth pursuing as a new I-D for DNS servers? Thanks -- Hector Santos, CTO http://www.santronics.com http://santronics.blogspot.com ___ DNSOP mailing list DNSOP@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop
