RE: [libreoffice-documentation] Base guide structure (TOC)
Or may be to create a separate document explaining those details about databases back-ends? Is just an idea... El mar, 20-03-2012 a las 11:17 +, Tom Davies escribió: Hi :) I think Dan's plan is a good one and it's very ambitious. it's good to have input from new people but would it be possible to complete the 1st Base Guide according to Dan's plan first. After that would be the ideal time to discuss restructuring it and perhaps add in an Advanced guide. From discussions on the Users List it seems there is a gap in the market for an extremely simplistic and single purpose guide to help people create a contacts database and/or read a Thunderbird one. I think linking to an Evolution/Outlook one would make it too complex. I agree that the Base Guide that Dan has planned needs to avoid using the embedded back-end. When we first discussed the plan for the Base Guide most of us didn't realise quite how appalling the embedded one is. Using HSqlDb as an external back-end after downloading the proper HSqlDb from their website is a huge improvement but the embedded one seems to create too many weird problems. I think we have to avoid to much mission creep or the guide will never get done. It might be best to to keep comparisons between the various different back-ends to a reasonable minimum. The work Dan has done seems to have kick-started greater interest in work on Base generally. A completed Guide might draw more new people in. Regards from Tom :) --- On Tue, 20/3/12, Mail Dump mail.d...@comcast.net wrote: From: Mail Dump mail.d...@comcast.net Subject: RE: [libreoffice-documentation] Base guide structure (TOC) To: documentation@global.libreoffice.org Date: Tuesday, 20 March, 2012, 4:50 Mark, This is another problem with using HSQLDB as an example that I overlooked. It is cumbersome. And to be honest I would use a MySQL DB on localhost if I wanted to create a database. Although PHPmyAdmin is better, Base is more visual and seems to work well. Of course anyone with DB experience will want to use their preferred DB. And, there has been some discussion of losing much of the Java dependancies, especially since Sun and Oracle aren't in the picture any longer. So HSQLDB may someday be replaced with something like SQLite. Rick B -- For every ailment under the sun There is a remedy, or there is none; If there be one, try to find it; If there be none, never mind it. --W.W. Bartley -Original Message- From: Mark Stanton [mailto:m...@vowleyfarm.co.uk] Sent: Monday, March 19, 2012 11:18 AM To: documentation@global.libreoffice.org Subject: Re: [libreoffice-documentation] Base guide structure (TOC) Particularly because it's the cause of so much trouble, I'd suggest it would be good not to focus on the native HSQLDB setup, though I agree it would be good to show it. I'd suggest using all sorts of example backends. A Here's how you'd do x with the native HSQLDB and here's how you'd do it with a.n.other engine. A couple side-by-side like that, and then just vary engines in the examples. Mark Stanton One small step for mankind... -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to documentation+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/documentation/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to documentation+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/documentation/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to documentation+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/documentation/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
RE: [libreoffice-documentation] Base guide structure (TOC)
suggesting that we essentially begin from scratch? No, but I am pointing out the differences the Base guide from the other already published guides. The differences come in the viewpoint of the developers. Although I am a very good developer, I am here to be a technical writer. A plan for the Base Guide is similar to a plan for a database. I disagree. But we should continue this discussion as I would like to get busy and write. Regards, Rick B - Still in all, every night we does the tell, so that we 'member who we was and where we came from... And we lights the city, not just for him, but for all of them that are still out there. 'Cause we knows there come a night, when they sees the distant light, and they'll be comin' home. -- Mad Max Beyond Thunderdome -Original Message- From: Dan Lewis [mailto:elderdanle...@gmail.com] Sent: Monday, March 19, 2012 7:43 AM To: documentation@global.libreoffice.org Subject: Re: [libreoffice-documentation] Base guide structure (TOC) On Sun, 2012-03-18 at 23:46 -0700, Mail Dump wrote: Hi all, I know that I am the new guy here, but I have been thinking about a Base guide for awhile now. The current layout looks vague to me and doesn't seem to address the basic idea of a user guide; to show how to use the software. Database concepts are not simple and we should focus on how to use Base and leave tutorials and concepts for the appendices. With too much basic (or remedial) instruction on design theory and such, we lose the attention of users who know about databases at various levels. I don't think this is how a guide should be written. Below you can see how we worked out the Calc guide. It has minimal explanations of spreadsheet concepts and design. I really don't see what the vague look of the Base outline is that you mention, nor do I understand what you mean by basic idea of a user guide. What database concepts are not simple? What are you referring to when mentioning tutorials? My problem centers around who is the Base Guide for? What is the expected level of database knowledge of the user? How many of them have a background in database theory? How many do not? How can we know the answer to these questions? How do we write the guide to cover both groups without seemingly too elementary for some and too difficult for others? (Some have stated that an address book type database is as complex as the Base Guide should get. Others have mentioned that even relational databases should be kept as simple as possible using only the wizards.) To me, an outline is vague or clear depending upon how detailed the outline is. I looked over your proposed outline, and to me it looks vague. Why? Because I don't see the details of your outline. For that matter, Drew's outline could use more details that would make it clearer. My perspective of Drew's outline: it compartmentalizes the discussion into chapters. Chapter 1 is an introduction. Chapter 2 describes how to plan/design a database. (Considering some of the posts to the user mailing list and personal experience, I question how many people actually do this very well at all.) I consider this to be one of the most important parts for creating a database: not needed for the expert who takes the time to do the needed planning/designing every time; an Absolute must for those who have not always done this or never have done it. (Proper planning/designing reduces if not eliminates the GIGO [garbage in garbage out] that can become part of a poorly designed database.) Chapter 3 looks at the details of tables, views, relationships, and forms. If a person wants to know how to create, modify, or delete these, this is where they should look. Chapter 4 discusses Queries and Reports. Again, anyone wanting to know about any of these should look here. Other chapters are similar in nature: look in this chapter for discussion on what you can do with the parts of Base mentioned here. Showing how to plan and design the database which is used as an example throughout the guide is a very good idea. I disagree. This is not how a database should be created: plan and design it as it is being created. It needs to first have a plan. Secondly, it needs to have a design based upon that plan. Then if a problem comes up while creating the database, the plan and then design should be adjusted before continuing with the creation of it. I see a pattern in Drew's outline for creating a database. First you plan and design, Then you create the tables and the relationships between them. Next you create most of the forms you will need (forms that contain queries are created after them). Next, you create your reports. Now comes the uses for the created database. Next, learn
RE: [libreoffice-documentation] Base guide structure (TOC)
Hi :) I think Dan's plan is a good one and it's very ambitious. it's good to have input from new people but would it be possible to complete the 1st Base Guide according to Dan's plan first. After that would be the ideal time to discuss restructuring it and perhaps add in an Advanced guide. From discussions on the Users List it seems there is a gap in the market for an extremely simplistic and single purpose guide to help people create a contacts database and/or read a Thunderbird one. I think linking to an Evolution/Outlook one would make it too complex. I agree that the Base Guide that Dan has planned needs to avoid using the embedded back-end. When we first discussed the plan for the Base Guide most of us didn't realise quite how appalling the embedded one is. Using HSqlDb as an external back-end after downloading the proper HSqlDb from their website is a huge improvement but the embedded one seems to create too many weird problems. I think we have to avoid to much mission creep or the guide will never get done. It might be best to to keep comparisons between the various different back-ends to a reasonable minimum. The work Dan has done seems to have kick-started greater interest in work on Base generally. A completed Guide might draw more new people in. Regards from Tom :) --- On Tue, 20/3/12, Mail Dump mail.d...@comcast.net wrote: From: Mail Dump mail.d...@comcast.net Subject: RE: [libreoffice-documentation] Base guide structure (TOC) To: documentation@global.libreoffice.org Date: Tuesday, 20 March, 2012, 4:50 Mark, This is another problem with using HSQLDB as an example that I overlooked. It is cumbersome. And to be honest I would use a MySQL DB on localhost if I wanted to create a database. Although PHPmyAdmin is better, Base is more visual and seems to work well. Of course anyone with DB experience will want to use their preferred DB. And, there has been some discussion of losing much of the Java dependancies, especially since Sun and Oracle aren't in the picture any longer. So HSQLDB may someday be replaced with something like SQLite. Rick B -- For every ailment under the sun There is a remedy, or there is none; If there be one, try to find it; If there be none, never mind it. --W.W. Bartley -Original Message- From: Mark Stanton [mailto:m...@vowleyfarm.co.uk] Sent: Monday, March 19, 2012 11:18 AM To: documentation@global.libreoffice.org Subject: Re: [libreoffice-documentation] Base guide structure (TOC) Particularly because it's the cause of so much trouble, I'd suggest it would be good not to focus on the native HSQLDB setup, though I agree it would be good to show it. I'd suggest using all sorts of example backends. A Here's how you'd do x with the native HSQLDB and here's how you'd do it with a.n.other engine. A couple side-by-side like that, and then just vary engines in the examples. Mark Stanton One small step for mankind... -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to documentation+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/documentation/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to documentation+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/documentation/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to documentation+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/documentation/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-documentation] Base guide structure (TOC)
On Sun, 2012-03-18 at 23:46 -0700, Mail Dump wrote: Hi all, I know that I am the new guy here, but I have been thinking about a Base guide for awhile now. The current layout looks vague to me and doesn't seem to address the basic idea of a user guide; to show how to use the software. Database concepts are not simple and we should focus on how to use Base and leave tutorials and concepts for the appendices. With too much basic (or remedial) instruction on design theory and such, we lose the attention of users who know about databases at various levels. I don't think this is how a guide should be written. Below you can see how we worked out the Calc guide. It has minimal explanations of spreadsheet concepts and design. I really don't see what the vague look of the Base outline is that you mention, nor do I understand what you mean by basic idea of a user guide. What database concepts are not simple? What are you referring to when mentioning tutorials? My problem centers around who is the Base Guide for? What is the expected level of database knowledge of the user? How many of them have a background in database theory? How many do not? How can we know the answer to these questions? How do we write the guide to cover both groups without seemingly too elementary for some and too difficult for others? (Some have stated that an address book type database is as complex as the Base Guide should get. Others have mentioned that even relational databases should be kept as simple as possible using only the wizards.) To me, an outline is vague or clear depending upon how detailed the outline is. I looked over your proposed outline, and to me it looks vague. Why? Because I don't see the details of your outline. For that matter, Drew's outline could use more details that would make it clearer. My perspective of Drew's outline: it compartmentalizes the discussion into chapters. Chapter 1 is an introduction. Chapter 2 describes how to plan/design a database. (Considering some of the posts to the user mailing list and personal experience, I question how many people actually do this very well at all.) I consider this to be one of the most important parts for creating a database: not needed for the expert who takes the time to do the needed planning/designing every time; an Absolute must for those who have not always done this or never have done it. (Proper planning/designing reduces if not eliminates the GIGO [garbage in garbage out] that can become part of a poorly designed database.) Chapter 3 looks at the details of tables, views, relationships, and forms. If a person wants to know how to create, modify, or delete these, this is where they should look. Chapter 4 discusses Queries and Reports. Again, anyone wanting to know about any of these should look here. Other chapters are similar in nature: look in this chapter for discussion on what you can do with the parts of Base mentioned here. Showing how to plan and design the database which is used as an example throughout the guide is a very good idea. I disagree. This is not how a database should be created: plan and design it as it is being created. It needs to first have a plan. Secondly, it needs to have a design based upon that plan. Then if a problem comes up while creating the database, the plan and then design should be adjusted before continuing with the creation of it. I see a pattern in Drew's outline for creating a database. First you plan and design, Then you create the tables and the relationships between them. Next you create most of the forms you will need (forms that contain queries are created after them). Next, you create your reports. Now comes the uses for the created database. Next, learn how to customize the database. Finally comes the most complex (accessing Base database document files with embedded databases using the HSQLDB as well as using Base as the front-end to databases created by other programs (Access, MySQL, Oracle, PostgreSQL, etc.). I have included my ideas (Proposed TOC) at the bottom just below the current layout. So, are you suggesting that we essentially begin from scratch? That the outline we have presently can not be modified in terms of the details in the outline to make it better? Perhaps a rearrangement of a chapter? (Specifically, using Base as a front-end might need to be moved to chapter 5.) A plan for the Base Guide is similar to a plan for a database. There are very often many ways to do the same thing. The differences come in the viewpoint of the developers. Which one is better, yours or Drew's? Likely the differences is also a matter of Drew's and your viewpoints. But most importantly, the details of either outline must be considered. BIG SNIP Proposed TOC Chapter 1 - Introducing Base Obvious, but omit the tutorial on database concepts and stick to the working environment. This should be in an appendix. Chapter
Re: [libreoffice-documentation] Base guide structure (TOC)
Additional comment: I have added a new topic to discuss this on my dashboard in Alfresco. Discussion is welcome there. I have also uploaded my copy of Drew's outline to the Discussion Library for anyone who needs one to join the discussion. I would like to see the details of the proposed TOC. --Dan -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to documentation+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/documentation/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-documentation] Base guide structure (TOC)
Particularly because it's the cause of so much trouble, I'd suggest it would be good not to focus on the native HSQLDB setup, though I agree it would be good to show it. I'd suggest using all sorts of example backends. A Here's how you'd do x with the native HSQLDB and here's how you'd do it with a.n.other engine. A couple side-by-side like that, and then just vary engines in the examples. Mark Stanton One small step for mankind... -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to documentation+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/documentation/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
RE: [libreoffice-documentation] Base guide structure (TOC)
To: documentation@global.libreoffice.org Subject: Re: [libreoffice-documentation] Base guide structure (TOC) On Sun, 2012-03-18 at 23:46 -0700, Mail Dump wrote: Hi all, I know that I am the new guy here, but I have been thinking about a Base guide for awhile now. The current layout looks vague to me and doesn't seem to address the basic idea of a user guide; to show how to use the software. Database concepts are not simple and we should focus on how to use Base and leave tutorials and concepts for the appendices. With too much basic (or remedial) instruction on design theory and such, we lose the attention of users who know about databases at various levels. I don't think this is how a guide should be written. Below you can see how we worked out the Calc guide. It has minimal explanations of spreadsheet concepts and design. I really don't see what the vague look of the Base outline is that you mention, nor do I understand what you mean by basic idea of a user guide. What database concepts are not simple? What are you referring to when mentioning tutorials? My problem centers around who is the Base Guide for? What is the expected level of database knowledge of the user? How many of them have a background in database theory? How many do not? How can we know the answer to these questions? How do we write the guide to cover both groups without seemingly too elementary for some and too difficult for others? (Some have stated that an address book type database is as complex as the Base Guide should get. Others have mentioned that even relational databases should be kept as simple as possible using only the wizards.) To me, an outline is vague or clear depending upon how detailed the outline is. I looked over your proposed outline, and to me it looks vague. Why? Because I don't see the details of your outline. For that matter, Drew's outline could use more details that would make it clearer. My perspective of Drew's outline: it compartmentalizes the discussion into chapters. Chapter 1 is an introduction. Chapter 2 describes how to plan/design a database. (Considering some of the posts to the user mailing list and personal experience, I question how many people actually do this very well at all.) I consider this to be one of the most important parts for creating a database: not needed for the expert who takes the time to do the needed planning/designing every time; an Absolute must for those who have not always done this or never have done it. (Proper planning/designing reduces if not eliminates the GIGO [garbage in garbage out] that can become part of a poorly designed database.) Chapter 3 looks at the details of tables, views, relationships, and forms. If a person wants to know how to create, modify, or delete these, this is where they should look. Chapter 4 discusses Queries and Reports. Again, anyone wanting to know about any of these should look here. Other chapters are similar in nature: look in this chapter for discussion on what you can do with the parts of Base mentioned here. Showing how to plan and design the database which is used as an example throughout the guide is a very good idea. I disagree. This is not how a database should be created: plan and design it as it is being created. It needs to first have a plan. Secondly, it needs to have a design based upon that plan. Then if a problem comes up while creating the database, the plan and then design should be adjusted before continuing with the creation of it. I see a pattern in Drew's outline for creating a database. First you plan and design, Then you create the tables and the relationships between them. Next you create most of the forms you will need (forms that contain queries are created after them). Next, you create your reports. Now comes the uses for the created database. Next, learn how to customize the database. Finally comes the most complex (accessing Base database document files with embedded databases using the HSQLDB as well as using Base as the front-end to databases created by other programs (Access, MySQL, Oracle, PostgreSQL, etc.). I have included my ideas (Proposed TOC) at the bottom just below the current layout. So, are you suggesting that we essentially begin from scratch? That the outline we have presently can not be modified in terms of the details in the outline to make it better? Perhaps a rearrangement of a chapter? (Specifically, using Base as a front-end might need to be moved to chapter 5.) A plan for the Base Guide is similar to a plan for a database. There are very often many ways to do the same thing. The differences come in the viewpoint of the developers. Which one is better, yours or Drew's? Likely the differences is also a matter of Drew's and your viewpoints. But most importantly, the details of either outline must be considered. BIG SNIP Proposed TOC Chapter 1
RE: [libreoffice-documentation] Base guide structure (TOC)
Mark, This is another problem with using HSQLDB as an example that I overlooked. It is cumbersome. And to be honest I would use a MySQL DB on localhost if I wanted to create a database. Although PHPmyAdmin is better, Base is more visual and seems to work well. Of course anyone with DB experience will want to use their preferred DB. And, there has been some discussion of losing much of the Java dependancies, especially since Sun and Oracle aren't in the picture any longer. So HSQLDB may someday be replaced with something like SQLite. Rick B -- For every ailment under the sun There is a remedy, or there is none; If there be one, try to find it; If there be none, never mind it. --W.W. Bartley -Original Message- From: Mark Stanton [mailto:m...@vowleyfarm.co.uk] Sent: Monday, March 19, 2012 11:18 AM To: documentation@global.libreoffice.org Subject: Re: [libreoffice-documentation] Base guide structure (TOC) Particularly because it's the cause of so much trouble, I'd suggest it would be good not to focus on the native HSQLDB setup, though I agree it would be good to show it. I'd suggest using all sorts of example backends. A Here's how you'd do x with the native HSQLDB and here's how you'd do it with a.n.other engine. A couple side-by-side like that, and then just vary engines in the examples. Mark Stanton One small step for mankind... -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to documentation+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/documentation/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to documentation+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/documentation/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
