Re: [dwm] column layout revival?
Well, just forget my idea of yesterday, I tried to work with the wmii layout a couple of minutes and it just feels wrong. I believe, I shouldn't accept any non-widescreen monitor anymore instead ;) Regards, Anselm On Tue, Sep 04, 2007 at 05:57:49PM +0200, Anselm R. Garbe wrote: A couple of weeks ago I decided to cancel my mail concerning about changing dwm the wmii-way somewhat, because I got afraid for some reason. But now I wanna ask you as dwm-community, what do you think about the idea to change dwm more into the wmii-way? What I have in mind from time to time, esp. when being forced to work with a standard resolution monitor is, that I'd like to see the basic wmii column layout - but without column modes (simply equal) and without all other clunk. To achieve this, we would loose the ability to view more than one tag - but gaining the layout preservation on the other side and having a real column layout, which means allowing to move windows between the columns left- and right-wards (which may create new columns) resp. up- and down-wards to move them in the stack. For simplicity reasons I won't like to see any layout modes (they won't work anyways with decor-less windows). So what do you think about this idea? Regards, -- Anselm R. Garbe http://www.suckless.org/ GPG key: 0D73F361 -- Anselm R. Garbe http://www.suckless.org/ GPG key: 0D73F361
Re: [dwm] column layout revival?
On Tue, Sep 04, 2007 at 10:34:21PM -0400, voltaic wrote: And I don't think a simple layout for DWM will accomplish what Anselm is suggesting. Moving clients around in the column goes hand in hand with state preservation: One feature would be useless without the other. Perhaps it works to have a layout with an ncols parameter. Windows are arranged in N columns, like so (3 columns, 6 windows): +---+---+---+ | 1 | 2 | 3 | +---+---+---+ | 4 | 5 | 6 | +---+---+---+ If the number of windows is not a multiple of N, then the left columns get fewer windows. The digits in the above picture show the position of the window in the window list. Dwm already maintains a window list: the first window goes in the master area, the following windows are arranged from top to bottom in the slave area. I'm not sure if dwm already has a function to move a window up/down in the list. Then moving up/down by 1 would be moving the window to a different column, and moving up/down by N would be moving to a different position in the same column (approximately). I see nothing fundamentally different in this type of layout, I guess it would fit in well with the existing dwm concepts. Kai
Re: [dwm] column layout revival?
On Tue, Sep 04, 2007 at 10:34:21PM -0400, voltaic wrote: I feel like I'm repeating myself here, but I'm often wondering why other people are using DWM if it's not for the tags? If I didn't care about the tags and wanted a workspace based WM with layout preservation I feel like there are a lot of alternatives that do this already (xmonad, ion, etc.). In my view, the ability to view more than one tag at the same time is but one of many useful dwm features. I use xmonad myself, mainly because of the Xinerama support, but besides Xinerama, it wouldn't hurt at all to use dwm. Kai
Re: [dwm] column layout revival?
greetings, Perhaps it works to have a layout with an ncols parameter. Windows are arranged in N columns, like so (3 columns, 6 windows): +---+---+---+ | 1 | 2 | 3 | +---+---+---+ | 4 | 5 | 6 | +---+---+---+ I have discovered and implemented this independently in my personal fork. It works great, especially on my 24 1920x1200 display it's indispensable (although recently I find myself just simulating the effect by VIM's :vs). (Actually my version just splits the client area into columns, the left side is still the master window, respecting NMASTER.) It's another of those layouts that works better with layout-preserving and the traditional workspace model... Maybe I should learn to live with tags instead. Mate
Re: [dwm] column layout revival?
On Tue, Sep 04, 2007 at 10:34:21PM -0400, voltaic wrote: To me DWM means a window manager that does its job and actually manages my windows for me. I have to do as little managing as possible. This also means that DWM is completely predictable. Since there is no hierarchy other than master/stacked, I know what will happen when I spawn a new client or add another tag to my current view. Well, the windows have an order. At which position in the order will the new windows be inserted? And I don't think a simple layout for DWM will accomplish what Anselm is suggesting. Moving clients around in the column goes hand in hand with state preservation: One feature would be useless without the other. I imagine that one doesn't need much more than the order of windows to maintain a column layout. The only additional bit of state I can think of is the number of windows in each column, which is similar to nmaster: nmaster applies to the master column only, and the column layout might need one value for each column except the last. The order of windows in a column would be determined by the global order of windows, which is already maintained as state by dwm. Kai
Re: [dwm] column layout revival?
On 9/5/07, Anselm R. Garbe [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Well, just forget my idea of yesterday, I tried to work with the wmii layout a couple of minutes and it just feels wrong. I believe, I shouldn't accept any non-widescreen monitor anymore instead ;) Well, I don't like wide-screen (tried working with a 22 1680x1050 for some weeks) and miss NMASTER for vertical tiling a lot. Maybe sticking with the old dwm release is what will satisfy my needs :P snip
Re: [dwm] column layout revival?
On Wed, Sep 05, 2007 at 12:57:04PM +0200, Tuncer Ayaz wrote: On 9/5/07, Anselm R. Garbe [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Well, just forget my idea of yesterday, I tried to work with the wmii layout a couple of minutes and it just feels wrong. I believe, I shouldn't accept any non-widescreen monitor anymore instead ;) Well, I don't like wide-screen (tried working with a 22 1680x1050 for some weeks) and miss NMASTER for vertical tiling a lot. Maybe sticking with the old dwm release is what will satisfy my needs :P I wonder if there isn't a supertile layout already somewhere? Should be trivial to port from older versions to the new pluggable design of dwm-4.4+ layouts. Regards, -- Anselm R. Garbe http://www.suckless.org/ GPG key: 0D73F361
Re: [dwm] column layout revival?
This isn't a generic supertile implementation, but FWIW the code I've put the code currently using up at http://www.personal.rdg.ac.uk/~sis05dst/dwm-4.4.mod.tbz in case it's of use to anyone. The dwm codebase works on multiple monitors already via xinerama, my mods just provide routines for utilising this extra space in a more natural manner. I haven't extracted patches (yet) because 1. work is insane atm 2. there are several related modifications that I find go together (more than two columns, number of columns remembered per tag, support for aspect ratio clients, etc) that it'd be difficult to produce a orthogonal patches. 3. I don't follow the suckless coding ideals. No doc, but as a brief desc: layout has a configurable number n of full columns, layout puts stuff in n full columns, then columns with STCK_COL_SZ clients in them up until the final column where it puts all the rest of the visible clients. Clients listed as ones where you should respect the aspect ratio are attempted to be scaled so they keep the aspect ratio implied by client requests (designed for things like image viewers, video, etc) unless to do so would take too much space. M=ModKey,C-Ctrl, S-Shift MC-n: add 1 to number of cols on current tag MCS-n: decrease by 1 number of cols on current tag M-n: add 1 to number of full cols on current tag MS-n: decrease by 1 number of full cols on current tag Warning: I get occasional lockups in the XSync() in drawstatus, but I _think_ that's because my X can lock up if it receives certain font characters to render (no idea why); might be wrong thought. -- cheers, dave tweed__ [EMAIL PROTECTED] Rm 124, School of Systems Engineering, University of Reading. we had no idea that when we added templates we were adding a Turing- complete compile-time language. -- C++ standardisation committee
Re: [dwm] column layout revival?
greetings, So what do you think about this idea? one vote in support. definitely Mate
Re: [dwm] column layout revival?
* Anselm R. Garbe [EMAIL PROTECTED] [070904 20:00]: A couple of weeks ago I decided to cancel my mail concerning about changing dwm the wmii-way somewhat, because I got afraid for some reason. But now I wanna ask you as dwm-community, what do you think about the idea to change dwm more into the wmii-way? What I have in mind from time to time, esp. when being forced to work with a standard resolution monitor is, that I'd like to see the basic wmii column layout - but without column modes (simply equal) and without all other clunk. To achieve this, we would loose the ability to view more than one tag - but gaining the layout preservation on the other side and having a real column layout, which means allowing to move windows between the columns left- and right-wards (which may create new columns) resp. up- and down-wards to move them in the stack. For simplicity reasons I won't like to see any layout modes (they won't work anyways with decor-less windows). So what do you think about this idea? Regards, -- Anselm R. Garbe http://www.suckless.org/ GPG key: 0D73F361 Maybe you can develop it in another branch and only fix bugs (if any) in current branch? I don't need columns and like the ability to view more than one tag. -- Alexander Polakov | http://polachok.livejournal.com Russian DWM users | http://community.livejournal.com/ru_dwm/
Re: [dwm] column layout revival?
On 9/4/07, Anselm R. Garbe [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: For simplicity reasons I won't like to see any layout modes (they won't work anyways with decor-less windows). i like layout modes and the way they make dwm customizable wmii style columns or gridmode can definitely be useful for some applications, but imho different layout modes can live together
Re: [dwm] column layout revival?
Tako rzecze Alexander Polakov (w e-mailu datowanym 2007-09-04, 20:07): For simplicity reasons I won't like to see any layout modes (they won't work anyways with decor-less windows). So what do you think about this idea? Regards, -- Anselm R. Garbe http://www.suckless.org/ GPG key: 0D73F361 Maybe you can develop it in another branch and only fix bugs (if any) in current branch? I don't need columns and like the ability to view more than one tag. I second that. I really feel that dwm has reached optimum usability in it's current state, at least for widescreen users, can't say for others, as I don't get to use dwm on 4:3 displays. Also I would very strongly vote for including yiyus' viewprevtag patch in the current branch. It's just a few lines of code, but very useful when working with two alternating tags (or a tagset and a tag) (a most common work scenario for me, really). The bug that would need fixing in this stable line is the focus stealing problem that reappeared in 4.4.1 (or sometime around), I've posted the details of the bug to the list recently. Best, [a] -- . Antoni Grzymala - antoni (at) chopin.edu.pl ---. | OpenPGP KeyID EB315583 available now from a keyserver near you | | Fingerprint A819 6D2E D5EB D9E0 D2D9 7AF6 2FAF 4A11 EB31 5583 | `' pgpH2ROngCirT.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [dwm] column layout revival?
Hi Anselm, I never really view more than 1 tag at a time so I would certainly be interested in giving your suggestions a try. cheers, Anthony On Tue, Sep 04, 2007 at 05:57:49PM +0200, Anselm R. Garbe wrote: A couple of weeks ago I decided to cancel my mail concerning about changing dwm the wmii-way somewhat, because I got afraid for some reason. But now I wanna ask you as dwm-community, what do you think about the idea to change dwm more into the wmii-way? What I have in mind from time to time, esp. when being forced to work with a standard resolution monitor is, that I'd like to see the basic wmii column layout - but without column modes (simply equal) and without all other clunk. To achieve this, we would loose the ability to view more than one tag - but gaining the layout preservation on the other side and having a real column layout, which means allowing to move windows between the columns left- and right-wards (which may create new columns) resp. up- and down-wards to move them in the stack. For simplicity reasons I won't like to see any layout modes (they won't work anyways with decor-less windows). So what do you think about this idea? Regards, -- Anselm R. Garbe http://www.suckless.org/ GPG key: 0D73F361
Re: [dwm] column layout revival?
On Tue, Sep 04, 2007 at 08:08:25PM +0200, pancake wrote: Why not just add a new layout that puts the clients in this way? Why lose the multiple tag visibility? I like the wmii column approach, but I don't see dwm with it. Well. I mean I can imagine a dwm fork based on this other concept, or just a new layout...or just a modified version of the default tiling with nmaster per column or something like that. Multiple tags per view is something that I dont' usually use, but it makes sense and it's useful sometimes. I can live without it, but can't understand why this feature must be dropped. Another idea could be to make each column represent one tag, and switching clients between tags be the same as moving between columns. Having the focused column a little bigger than the rest maybe interesting, instead of having all the columns at the same size which is a bit claustrofobic. BTW the idea sounds cool. No idea how many LOCs implies these changes. What if a client is tagged with more than 1 tag? Regards, -- Anselm R. Garbe http://www.suckless.org/ GPG key: 0D73F361
Re: [dwm] column layout revival?
On 9/4/07, Antoni Grzymala [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Tako rzecze Alexander Polakov (w e-mailu datowanym 2007-09-04, 20:07): For simplicity reasons I won't like to see any layout modes (they won't work anyways with decor-less windows). So what do you think about this idea? Regards, -- Anselm R. Garbe http://www.suckless.org/ GPG key: 0D73F361 Maybe you can develop it in another branch and only fix bugs (if any) in current branch? I don't need columns and like the ability to view more than one tag. I second that. I second it, too. I make heavy use of multiple tags and would not like to revert to a workspace-ish approach. Riccardo
Re: [dwm] column layout revival?
On Tue, Sep 04, 2007 at 06:22:11PM +0200, Antoni Grzymala wrote: Tako rzecze Alexander Polakov (w e-mailu datowanym 2007-09-04, 20:07): For simplicity reasons I won't like to see any layout modes (they won't work anyways with decor-less windows). So what do you think about this idea? Regards, -- Anselm R. Garbe http://www.suckless.org/ GPG key: 0D73F361 Maybe you can develop it in another branch and only fix bugs (if any) in current branch? I don't need columns and like the ability to view more than one tag. I second that. I really feel that dwm has reached optimum usability in it's current state, at least for widescreen users, can't say for others, as I don't get to use dwm on 4:3 displays. Also I would very strongly vote for including yiyus' viewprevtag patch in the current branch. It's just a few lines of code, but very useful when working with two alternating tags (or a tagset and a tag) (a most common work scenario for me, really). The bug that would need fixing in this stable line is the focus stealing problem that reappeared in 4.4.1 (or sometime around), I've posted the details of the bug to the list recently. Well, I think that such a change of dwm might justify to call the result not dwm, but maybe colwm. Regards, -- Anselm R. Garbe http://www.suckless.org/ GPG key: 0D73F361
Re: [dwm] column layout revival?
On Tue, Sep 04, 2007 at 06:51:11PM +0200, Anselm R. Garbe wrote: On Tue, Sep 04, 2007 at 08:08:25PM +0200, pancake wrote: Another idea could be to make each column represent one tag, and switching clients between tags be the same as moving between columns. What if a client is tagged with more than 1 tag? I was thinking on the column mode as a super mode that disables the tagging approach, something like alt+0 but with super-columns powers. --pancake
Re: [dwm] column layout revival?
On Tue, Sep 04, 2007 at 08:41:54PM +0200, pancake wrote: On Tue, Sep 04, 2007 at 06:51:11PM +0200, Anselm R. Garbe wrote: On Tue, Sep 04, 2007 at 08:08:25PM +0200, pancake wrote: Another idea could be to make each column represent one tag, and switching clients between tags be the same as moving between columns. What if a client is tagged with more than 1 tag? I was thinking on the column mode as a super mode that disables the tagging approach, something like alt+0 but with super-columns powers. Well, that won't scale. A normal 4:3 screen is only usable with two columns, a wide screen might be usable with 3 columns, but not more. Regards, -- Anselm R. Garbe http://www.suckless.org/ GPG key: 0D73F361
Re: [dwm] column layout revival?
On Tuesday 04 of September 2007 18:52:17 Riccardo Murri wrote: On 9/4/07, Antoni Grzymala [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Tako rzecze Alexander Polakov (w e-mailu datowanym 2007-09-04, 20:07): For simplicity reasons I won't like to see any layout modes (they won't work anyways with decor-less windows). So what do you think about this idea? Regards, -- Anselm R. Garbe http://www.suckless.org/ GPG key: 0D73F361 Maybe you can develop it in another branch and only fix bugs (if any) in current branch? I don't need columns and like the ability to view more than one tag. I second that. I second it, too. I make heavy use of multiple tags and would not like to revert to a workspace-ish approach. Riccardo I agree with Ricardo and others that second that change. Tags and window management they offer are very useful to me (could say I became somewhat addicted to the power of tags). -- Damjan Vrenčur ~ http://lmmri.fri.uni-lj.si/damjan/ ~ GPG key: C6A3146F
Re: [dwm] column layout revival?
On 9/4/07, Anselm R. Garbe [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What I have in mind from time to time, esp. when being forced to work with a standard resolution monitor is, that I'd like to see the basic wmii column layout - but without column modes (simply equal) and without all other clunk. To achieve this, we would loose the ability to view more than one tag - but gaining the layout preservation on the other side and having a real column layout, which means allowing to move windows between the columns left- and right-wards (which may create new columns) resp. up- and down-wards to move them in the stack. FWIW, I use dwm on a two monitors setup with generally four columns, a typical example being at http://www.personal.rdg.ac.uk/~sis05dst/desktop.jpg (The colours are for some reason screwed up by xwd.) I find I quite often want to be able to move windows to more general positions in the clients list, so I've written a function to move the currently selected window to position k in the clients list (since there's not just master or non-master choice like std dwm but various sizes and positions). It moves the client and retiles but doesn't change the column capacities (which sounds like what you're talking about). The big problem is that I've got to actually count to determine which keybinding to use to move a client to a new position; I keep meaning to look into how to use the mouse to do this. I certainly file this useful, but in conjunction with viewing multiple tags. -- cheers, dave tweed__ [EMAIL PROTECTED] Rm 124, School of Systems Engineering, University of Reading. we had no idea that when we added templates we were adding a Turing- complete compile-time language. -- C++ standardisation committee
Re: [dwm] column layout revival?
FWIW, I use dwm on a two monitors setup with generally four columns, a typical example being at http://www.personal.rdg.ac.uk/~sis05dst/desktop.jpg OT: How doy you manage to program with a non-monospaced font? -- Cheers, Eivind Uggedal Engineer, Faculty of Social Science, MSc Computer Science, University of Oslo
Re: [dwm] column layout revival?
On 9/4/07, Eivind Uggedal [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
FWIW, I use dwm on a two monitors setup with generally four columns, a
typical example being at
http://www.personal.rdg.ac.uk/~sis05dst/desktop.jpg
OT: How doy you manage to program with a non-monospaced font?
It's not completely clear what you're asking. If you mean how do you
deal with indentation and lining up stuff in non-ms font then
indentation (particularly semantic indentation like in python) is
always done in spaces so that's not a problem. You can't do things
like line up
if(function(boo,
zoo)){
so that the zoo lines up under the opening bracket, so I don't do that
:-) (And I don't find I miss it.) The basic reason I use a prop font
is that I generally find the biggest problems in my programming is
mismatches between things defined/used and other inconsistencies and
generally with a prop font I can get more on the screen to correlate
between files.
--
cheers, dave tweed__
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Rm 124, School of Systems Engineering, University of Reading.
we had no idea that when we added templates we were adding a Turing-
complete compile-time language. -- C++ standardisation committee
Re: [dwm] column layout revival?
On Tue, Sep 04, 2007 at 05:57:49PM +0200, Anselm R. Garbe wrote: But now I wanna ask you as dwm-community, what do you think about the idea to change dwm more into the wmii-way? i would prefer some more column oriented view rather than that tagging stuff. for me, there is no need for using tags the way it is intended in dwm. tube -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://count0.net
Re: [dwm] column layout revival?
OT: How doy you manage to program with a non-monospaced font? acme uses a non-monospaced font (by default, you can change it to a fixed font) and it is my editor of choice. Rob Pike thinks that good code should look like prose and it is better viewed with a variable-width font (and no sintax highlighting of course). I agree, and after some time of use I have found I don't change to the fixed font any more. Just my POV. -- - yiyus || JGL .
Re: [dwm] column layout revival?
I am in support of keeping tags the way they are. As others have mentioned I also have grown accustomed to using tags and find their functionality very useful. For me what sets DWM apart from other window managers is that it is truly dynamic. There are only very few items in DWM that I define statically. All the window management I personally have to do in DWM is to tag a client with the appropriate tag. For most applications I regularly use they are automatically tagged as specified in the config. DWM does the rest for me -- I don't have to worry about moving clients left and right, or up and down a stack. In fact, I like the fact that DWM limits the way I can arrange clients! I discover that I really don't need to do the arranging myself. After all I can only physically work with one client at a given time, and it makes sense to me that this client is in the master area, where it takes a larger portion of my screen space compared to the rest of the clients. However, I would understand that when working with a very large number of clients at once (like David Tweed does) there arises a need to arrange the stacked clients in a way that makes looking at them easier and more organized. I think this is the important question that needs to be answered: What does DWM mean? To me DWM means a window manager that does its job and actually manages my windows for me. I have to do as little managing as possible. This also means that DWM is completely predictable. Since there is no hierarchy other than master/stacked, I know what will happen when I spawn a new client or add another tag to my current view. DWM also gives me simplicity: It makes it simple to view and unview a group of applications via a single keyboard shortcut. In the workspace way of doing things I would have to get away from what I'm working on, switch to another workspace, and find the client and move it into the workspace I want. This seems less efficient to me. I also prefer that DWM doesn't have window decorations. This saves space, and removes redundant information from the screen. Why have window decorations that tell you the title of the client when you can just look at the client and see its contents? I feel like I'm repeating myself here, but I'm often wondering why other people are using DWM if it's not for the tags? If I didn't care about the tags and wanted a workspace based WM with layout preservation I feel like there are a lot of alternatives that do this already (xmonad, ion, etc.). And I don't think a simple layout for DWM will accomplish what Anselm is suggesting. Moving clients around in the column goes hand in hand with state preservation: One feature would be useless without the other. The solution here could be one of the two: 1) A super window manager that is DWM+WMII. That is to say a window manager with a column mode that offers state preservation and workspaces, and a master/stacked mode that offers tags. The two modes would have to be exclusive of one another. I don't see how one would expect to arrange a workspace and then bring into view another set of tags. How would this work in a predictable manner? So this would really be essentially two different window managers in one executable. I guess this would also duplicate the amount of information that needs to be stored about each client (tag information, and placement/workspace information). Chances are, if someone likes tags then that person would probably never use the workspace-based half of the window manager, and vice versa. Overall this would be an interesting idea, but not minimal in any sense. 2) More realistically then, a fork, or perhaps a WMIII would be more appropriate as this idea is really something that is fundamentally different from DWM. --voltaic
