Fern-watching (was Re: primate watching)
Right after I caught up with the primate-watching thread on Ecolog-l post the ESA meeting last week, I found a lovely article on fern- watching in the Aug 13 issue of the New Yorker, by Oliver Sacks. I was moved enough to write about it on my blog, and would like to share it here as the article illustrates the potential of getting people excited about documenting biodiversity, and also raises some intriguing questions about the (micro-)biogeography of ferns in Manhattan. Read the original article by Oliver Sacks here: http://www.newyorker.com/talk/2007/08/13/070813ta_talk_sacks and my commentary (embellished with a video) is here: http://reconciliationecology.blogspot.com/2007/08/joys-of-fern- watching.html If the links get broken by my mail server, you may search newyorker.com for Oliver Sacks to find his article, and look on the front page of my blog (url is below in my signature also) for my comments. I'd appreciate any feedback from ecologgers, especially those who might have some answers to the distributional questions. Madhu ~ Madhusudan Katti Assistant Professor Department of Biology, M/S SB73 California State University, Fresno 2555 E. San Ramon Ave. Fresno, CA 93740-8034 559.278.2460 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://zimmer.csufresno.edu/~mkatti http://reconciliationecology.blogspot.com/ ~ In questions of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual. [Galileo Galilei]
ECOLOGY Conservation Principles and Transformations Re: hunting conservation/was ECOLOGY Conservation Principles and Transformations Re: primate watching
Wendee (The only reason I changed the subject line is because of my filing system; feel free to change it back): Wl, I think one has to be careful about cases. Personally, I find it repugnant to hunt for any reason other than food, and I would never suggest hunting as a means of fund raising for any creature near the top of the food chain and not in abundance with respect to its habitat. I was joking about primate hunting. I also find it repugnant that billionaires are the only ones to be permitted to hunt bighorns and other trophy species. While money might be useful for habitat preservation and restoration, putting money into a system can have its own corrupting influences. I was raised as a hunter/conservationist, and in my professional life I have seen the results on, for example, deer populations as a result of predator hunting (e.g., mountain lions), e.g., booms and busts with corresponding disastrous effects on forage and other plant species, soils and forests, grasslands and other habitats. The problem with hunting is that it has morphed into a kind of psychopathology. Some European traditions used to cull older and defective animals rather than trophies. In the USA, there needs to be a renewal of hunting traditions away from a bunch of drunks making wildlands into a congested war zone every hunting season. (Some may cry that this is an exaggeration, but I submit that, as a summary, that it is more true than untrue.) Nonetheless, I suggest that hunting and fishing, etc., be studied by ecologists (not just wildlife managers) rather than rejected out of hand. For example, in areas of the western USA where cattle and sheep are destructive to the range (most of it), if landowners could be permitted to reduce certain prey species to levels that would preserve their available forage, vegetation could be in better shape and given a chance to advance on alien species that thrive on domestic stock damage to the range, such as trampling. This is a BIG issue that can't be resolved in a few emails, but it might be taken to a point on ecolog. WT At 03:37 PM 8/13/2007, WENDEE HOLTCAMP wrote: This is a really interesting point. I wrote an article about Louisiana black bears about a year ago, a threatened subspecies of American black bear. I spent a week in the field while biologists relocated bear mommas and cubs to a different habitat in efforts to expand their range. One comment by one of the people there that week was that the best thing that could happen to the LA black bear is to make it a game species. Hunters channel a lot of funds that ultimately (usually) go into conservation. I'd be curious to know how MUCH money exactly has been channeled into conservation through hunting of various species - particularly somewhat rare species hunted in a limited manner? And in what types of scenarios does funding generated from hunting/fishing of rare species outweigh the conservation efforts obtained by listing the species as threatened or endangered? I know, for example, in Texas they give out a very small number of very high-priced permits to hunt bighorn sheep - and as I understand it, a lot of this money goes to conservation/management. I've been told the species is rare enough to be listed as threatened, but as far as I know no stink has been raised about the issue by any group. I would think that the money from hunting a few benefits the overall conservation more than putting it on the ESA. Likewise, Guadalupe Bass, Texas' state fish is nearly extinct IF You consider hybrids not really Guads. Pretty much all Guadalupe bass have hybridized with their introduced cousins - smallmouth and largemouths. (There is one pure population which, ironically, was introduced outside of its range). But listing this species on the ESA would not only be an utterly logistical nightmare (distinguishing them from stocked fish? Nearly impossible if you're talking about genetics and not morphology) it would probably NOT be the most beneficial thing for the species. Any thoughts? Any other similar cases? This has the makings of a great article :) Wendee ~~ Wendee Holtcamp * Freelance Writer * Photographer * Bohemian http://www.wendeeholtcamp.com Bohemian Adventures Blog * http://bohemianadventures.blogspot.com The Fish Wars: A Christian Evolutionist http://thefishwars.blogspot.com ~~ Online Writing Course Starts Sep 15. Sign Up Now! -Original Message- From: Ecological Society of America: grants, jobs, news [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Wayne Tyson Sent: Monday, August 13, 2007 2:43 PM To: ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU Subject: ECOLOGY Conservation Principles and Transformations Re: primate watching Bill and Forum: Speaking of weak analogies, primate hunting may not be a sufficiently large sport for the duck-hunter analogy to be of much value, but one
Re: primate watching
Hello Linda, I wish that birds were always so easy to see. A typical backyard feeder in North America regularly attracts only a few species depending on season and other factors. Backyard birders put up several types of feeders to attract birds with different feeding strategies and food preferences. Also consider that the birds I see in 105 deg F on an August afternoon in Columbia, SC is very different from what someone will see in Maine, Washington, Arizona, etc. Dedicated birders spend an enormous amount of time and money to see new species at locations distant from their home. I do not count myself among the dedicated birders but I recently spent a week in Nevada and California and saw exactly two species I had never seen before. Backyard birders also spend a lot of time in their yards and neighborhoods hoping to see an unusual migrant or a bird displaced by storms or fires. The good news is that many birders are also dedicated conservationists who truly do care about things like habitat, food availability and quality, and ecosystems. Even those that are simply listers have an indirect effect because the money they spend and their presence in the field is used to help justify natural resource management programs by governments and NGOs. Regards, Daniel L. Tufford, Ph.D. University of South Carolina Department of Biological Sciences 209A Sumwalt(office) 701 Sumter St, Room 401(mail) Columbia, SC 29208 Ph. 803-777-3292, Fx: 803-777-3292 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] web: http://www.biol.sc.edu/~tufford -Original Message- From: Ecological Society of America: grants, jobs, news [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Laura Marsh Sent: Monday, August 13, 2007 6:34 PM To: ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU Subject: Re: primate watching Hi all-- I'm a primatologist and although I personally have a list, I think the reason it is harder for folks to think in terms of lists on primates is easy: there are no wild primates in the US or Europe where the bulk of the bird twitchers live. It costs money, sometimes lots of it to go see a wild primate. Birds are easy and at our backyard feeders. Laura PS And oh how I wish monkeys came to our feeders instead! :) At 6:36 PM -0300 8/13/07, James J. Roper wrote: Judith, I certainly did not mean to suggest that birders are not interested in the objects of their attention, but they do so with a different sense of how to go about it. Just ask a birder for some information about the behavior or biology of birds they have seen, and be prepared to have a beer or two while they tell their stories. I would venture to say that ALL people who are animal watchers (and even plant watchers) are interested in the animals they watch. Birds just have so many options tha they must divide their time among the many species, while primatologists often have fewer species and so devote more time to each. Jim On 8/13/07, Judith S. Weis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: One would hope that primate watchers (or watchers of anything else) would become a bit more interested in the behaviors, life history etc. of the creatures they watch than many birders who couldn't care less about the biology of the birds they see, but just want to check them off their list. Does anybody know a way to get these people interested in the life history, behavior etc. of the birds and their conservation rather than just adding names to their lists? There are currently estimated to be 625 species and subspecies of primates,= and 26% of those are in immediate danger of extinction (Critically Endange= red or Endangered). That may seem like only a few primates to some people,= but to those of us who work in primate conservation, it is 160 taxa too ma= ny.=0A=0AAsia actually leads the world in endangered primates with 55 taxa = (some down to a handful of individuals), Neotropics with 34, Africa with 33= , and Madagascar with 28. The Primate Specialist Group of the IUCN's Speci= es Survival Commission, Conservation International, and the International P= rimatological Society put out a list of the Top 25 Most Endangered Primates= every 2 years (the list created during the 2006 IPS meetings should be rel= eased soon). As is said every other year when that list is debated, the li= st could easily be 50 or 100 species long. Check out the Red List or the 2= 004 list of the top 25 most endangered primates (http://web.conservation.or= g/xp/news/press_releases/2005/040705.xml). =0A=0AJulie Wieczkowski, admit= tedly someone who studies one of the 43 endangered primates in Africa=0A = =0A- Original Message =0AFrom: William Silvert [EMAIL PROTECTED] =0ATo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Monday, August 13, 2007 6:40:18 A= M=0ASubject: Re: primate watching=0A=0A=0AThis is an interesting idea, but = the analogy to bird-watching is weak. There =0Aare only a few
Re: hunting conservation/was ECOLOGY Conservation Principles and Transformations Re: primate watching
I think it is a sad state of affairs when the people who pay for conservation are the hunters and the fishermen, and the people who do not pay are the rest. I think that if conservation is ever really going to happen, people need to learn how to live WITH nature. There are many species that will never be hunted or watched, yet we (most of us, I hope) believe that they should be preserved too. Who will pay? It seems a particularly American way of thinking that Nature must pay for itself, whic= h usually means we sell permits to hunters and fishermen and use that money for conservation. If the species has no appeal, who will speak up for it and pay for it? There are many places in the world where hunting on a larg= e scale does not happen, here in Brazil, for one example (legal hunting). Many Brazilians don't like the idea of having guns so readily available to anybody in order for hunting to work (fishing is a different story, but it still does not generate conservation dollars). Be that as it may - if conservation depends on the people that kill the animals being preserved, I find it both philosophically and scientifically problematic, and it says much for the apathy of the non-hunters, who should also be willing to pay for conservation. Jim On 8/13/07, WENDEE HOLTCAMP [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This is a really interesting point. I wrote an article about Louisiana black bears about a year ago, a threatened subspecies of American black bear. I spent a week in the field while biologists relocated bear mommas and cubs to a different habitat in efforts to expand their range. One comment by one of the people there that week was that the best thing that could happen to the LA black bear is to make it a game species. Hunters channel a lot of funds that ultimately (usually) go into conservation. I'd be curious to know how MUCH money exactly has been channeled into conservation through hunting of various species - particularly somewhat rare species hunted in a limited manner? And in what types of scenarios does funding generated from hunting/fishing of rare species outweigh the conservation efforts obtained by listing the species as threatened or endangered? I know, for example, in Texas they give out a very small number of very high-priced permits to hunt bighorn sheep - and as I understand it, a lot of this money goes to conservation/management. I've been told the species is rare enough to be listed as threatened, but as far as I know no stink has been raised about the issue by any group. I would think that the money from hunting a few benefits the overall conservation more than putting it on the ESA. Likewise, Guadalupe Bass, Texas' state fish is nearly extinct IF You consider hybrids not really Guads. Pretty much all Guadalupe bass have hybridized with their introduced cousins - smallmouth and largemouths. (There is one pure population which, ironically, was introduced outside o= f its range). But listing this species on the ESA would not only be an utterly logistical nightmare (distinguishing them from stocked fish? Nearly impossible if you're talking about genetics and not morphology) it would probably NOT be the most beneficial thing for the species. Any thoughts? Any other similar cases? This has the makings of a great article :) Wendee ~~ Wendee Holtcamp * Freelance Writer * Photographer * Bohemian http://www.wendeeholtcamp.com Bohemian AdventuresBlog* http://bohemianadventures.blogspot.com The Fish Wars: A Christian Evolutionist http://thefishwars.blogspot.com ~~ Online Writing Course Starts Sep 15. Sign Up Now! -Original Message- From: Ecological Society of America: grants, jobs, news [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Wayne Tyson Sent: Monday, August 13, 2007 2:43 PM To: ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU Subject: ECOLOGY Conservation Principles and Transformations Re: primate watching Bill and Forum: Speaking of weak analogies, primate hunting may not be a sufficiently large sport for the duck-hunter analogy to be of much value, but one of the most insightful ecologists I have ever known, Dick Vogl, used to lecture widely on the value of the Ducks Unlimited approach for habitat preservation--an ironic but useful route to success, especially when heavy industries with political clout tend to like filling wetlands for their oil and gas depots, etc. Few took his eco-logic seriously, many rejecting it out-of-hand. Then there's the just-beginning-to-be-explored transformational concept (struggling though it may be). To illustrate, Dayton Hyde once told me that he finally figured out that probably the real reason he took up hunting ducks was to get a closer look at their incredible beauty. He told of the moment this dawned on him. Having picked up the corpse of a duck he had just shot, he was struck by the iridescent colors
Re: primate watching
This is an interesting idea, but the analogy to bird-watching is weak. There are only a few primates that are serously endangered, mostly the great apes, and I think that anyone motivated by life lists would simply head for Madagascar and count lemurs. I suspect that getting a lot of spotters into the field would have a negative impact on the species being spotted. It is worth keeping in mind that one of the most successful measures in bird conservation is the habitat preservation by Ducks Unlimited, whose motive is to shoot ducks! Bill Silvert - Original Message - From: WENDEE HOLTCAMP [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU Sent: Sunday, August 12, 2007 7:19 PM Subject: primate watching I read something recently where someone was pondering whether we could create a system of primate watching, similar to birdwatching, as a way to channel funds into primate conservation. So instead of life lists for birds (or in addition to) they would have life lists for primates. I thought this was really interesting and was just going to try to pitch an article on it, but now I can't seem to find it anywhere - I didn't find it from a google search and I can't remember if I saw this in the news or a scientific journal TOC, or what. I am pretty sure it was a primatologist or biologist/ecologist making the statement. Does this ring any bells for anyone? If so please contact me offlist [EMAIL PROTECTED] Wendee ~~ Wendee Holtcamp * Freelance Writer * Photographer * Bohemian http://www.wendeeholtcamp.com/ http://www.wendeeholtcamp.com Bohemian Adventures Blog * http://bohemianadventures.blogspot.com/ http://bohemianadventures.blogspot.com The Fish Wars: A Christian Evolutionist http://thefishwars.blogspot.com/ http://thefishwars.blogspot.com ~~ Online Writing Course Starts Sep 15. Sign Up Now!
Re: primate watching
While the analogy is weak, the potential is still there. After all, monkey watchers spend hours and hours watching the same monkeys, while bird watchers move from species to species. So, the objective of monkey watching, while in part might be the making of a life list, would probably mostly be to just watch them behave. So, instead of life list of species, it might be a life list of behaviors that they record. Just like who (in birding) has the longest list of species gains status, for monkey watchers perhaps who saw the most unusual behaviors would gain status. So, I think the potential is there, just need a catalyst. Jim On 8/13/07, William Silvert [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This is an interesting idea, but the analogy to bird-watching is weak. There are only a few primates that are serously endangered, mostly the great apes, and I think that anyone motivated by life lists would simply head for Madagascar and count lemurs. I suspect that getting a lot of spotters int= o the field would have a negative impact on the species being spotted. It is worth keeping in mind that one of the most successful measures in bird conservation is the habitat preservation by Ducks Unlimited, whose motive is to shoot ducks! Bill Silvert - Original Message - From: WENDEE HOLTCAMP [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU Sent: Sunday, August 12, 2007 7:19 PM Subject: primate watching I read something recently where someone was pondering whether we could create a system of primate watching, similar to birdwatching, as a way to channel funds into primate conservation. So instead of life lists for birds (or in addition to) they would have life lists for primates. I thought this was really interesting and was just going to try to pitch an article on it, but now I can't seem to find it anywhere - I didn't find it from a google search and I can't remember if I saw this in the news or a scientific journal TOC, or what. I am pretty sure it was a primatologist or biologist/ecologist making the statement. Does this ring any bells for anyone? If so please contact me offlist [EMAIL PROTECTED] Wendee ~~ Wendee Holtcamp * Freelance Writer * Photographer * Bohemian http://www.wendeeholtcamp.com/ http://www.wendeeholtcamp.com Bohemian Adventures Blog * http://bohemianadventures.blogspot.com/ http://bohemianadventures.blogspot.com The Fish Wars: A Christian Evolutionist http://thefishwars.blogspot.com/ http://thefishwars.blogspot.com ~~ Online Writing Course Starts Sep 15. Sign Up Now! --=20 James J. Roper, Ph.D. Ecologia e Din=E2micas Populacionais de Vertebrados Terrestres -- Caixa Postal 19034 81531-990 Curitiba, Paran=E1, Brasil -- E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Telefone: 55 41 33857249 Mobile: 55 41 99870543 -- Ecologia e Conserva=E7=E3o na UFPR http://www.bio.ufpr.br/ecologia/ Personal Pages http://jjroper.googlespages.com
Re: primate watching
There are currently estimated to be 625 species and subspecies of primates,= and 26% of those are in immediate danger of extinction (Critically Endange= red or Endangered). That may seem like only a few primates to some people,= but to those of us who work in primate conservation, it is 160 taxa too ma= ny.=0A=0AAsia actually leads the world in endangered primates with 55 taxa = (some down to a handful of individuals), Neotropics with 34, Africa with 33= , and Madagascar with 28. The Primate Specialist Group of the IUCN's Speci= es Survival Commission, Conservation International, and the International P= rimatological Society put out a list of the Top 25 Most Endangered Primates= every 2 years (the list created during the 2006 IPS meetings should be rel= eased soon). As is said every other year when that list is debated, the li= st could easily be 50 or 100 species long. Check out the Red List or the 2= 004 list of the top 25 most endangered primates (http://web.conservation.or= g/xp/news/press_releases/2005/040705.xml). =0A=0AJulie Wieczkowski, admit= tedly someone who studies one of the 43 endangered primates in Africa=0A = =0A- Original Message =0AFrom: William Silvert [EMAIL PROTECTED] =0ATo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Monday, August 13, 2007 6:40:18 A= M=0ASubject: Re: primate watching=0A=0A=0AThis is an interesting idea, but = the analogy to bird-watching is weak. There =0Aare only a few primates that= are serously endangered, mostly the great apes, =0Aand I think that anyone= motivated by life lists would simply head for =0AMadagascar and count lemu= rs. I suspect that getting a lot of spotters into =0Athe field would have a= negative impact on the species being spotted.=0A=0AIt is worth keeping in = mind that one of the most successful measures in bird =0Aconservation is th= e habitat preservation by Ducks Unlimited, whose motive is =0Ato shoot duck= s!=0A=0ABill Silvert=0A=0A=0A- Original Message - =0AFrom: WENDEE = HOLTCAMP [EMAIL PROTECTED]=0ATo: ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU=0ASent:= Sunday, August 12, 2007 7:19 PM=0ASubject: primate watching=0A=0A=0AI rea= d something recently where someone was pondering whether we could=0A creat= e a system of primate watching, similar to birdwatching, as a way to=0A ch= annel funds into primate conservation. So instead of life lists for =0A bi= rds=0A (or in addition to) they would have life lists for primates. I thou= ght =0A this=0A was really interesting and was just going to try to pitch= an article on =0A it,=0A but now I can't seem to find it anywhere - I di= dn't find it from a google=0A search and I can't remember if I saw this in= the news or a scientific=0A journal TOC, or what. I am pretty sure it was= a primatologist or=0A biologist/ecologist making the statement.=0A=0A= =0A=0A Does this ring any bells for anyone? If so please contact me offli= st=0A [EMAIL PROTECTED]=0A Wendee=0A=0A ~= ~=0A=0A Wendee Holtcamp * Freelance Writer * = Photographer * Bohemian=0A=0A http://www.wendeeholtcamp.= com/=0A http://www.wendeeholtcamp.com=0A Bohemian Adventures Blog * ht= tp://bohemianadventures.blogspot.com/=0A http://bohemianadventures.blogsp= ot.com=0A=0A The Fish Wars: A Christian Evolutionist =0A http://thefish= wars.blogspot.com/=0A http://thefishwars.blogspot.com=0A ~~~= ~~~=0A Online Writing Course Starts Sep 15. Si= gn Up Now!=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0AJulie Wieczkowski, Ph.D.=0AAssistant Profes= sor=0ADepartment of Anthropology=0A332 Pafford=0AUniversity of West Georgia= =0ACarrollton, GA 30118=0A678-839-6458 (ph)=0A678-839-6466 (fax)=0Ajuliewhi= [EMAIL PROTECTED]/~jwhiz
Re: primate watching
One would hope that primate watchers (or watchers of anything else) would become a bit more interested in the behaviors, life history etc. of the creatures they watch than many birders who couldn't care less about the biology of the birds they see, but just want to check them off their list. Does anybody know a way to get these people interested in the life history, behavior etc. of the birds and their conservation rather than just adding names to their lists? There are currently estimated to be 625 species and subspecies of primates,= and 26% of those are in immediate danger of extinction (Critically Endange= red or Endangered). That may seem like only a few primates to some people,= but to those of us who work in primate conservation, it is 160 taxa too ma= ny.=0A=0AAsia actually leads the world in endangered primates with 55 taxa = (some down to a handful of individuals), Neotropics with 34, Africa with 33= , and Madagascar with 28. The Primate Specialist Group of the IUCN's Speci= es Survival Commission, Conservation International, and the International P= rimatological Society put out a list of the Top 25 Most Endangered Primates= every 2 years (the list created during the 2006 IPS meetings should be rel= eased soon). As is said every other year when that list is debated, the li= st could easily be 50 or 100 species long. Check out the Red List or the 2= 004 list of the top 25 most endangered primates (http://web.conservation.or= g/xp/news/press_releases/2005/040705.xml). =0A=0AJulie Wieczkowski, admit= tedly someone who studies one of the 43 endangered primates in Africa=0A = =0A- Original Message =0AFrom: William Silvert [EMAIL PROTECTED] =0ATo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Monday, August 13, 2007 6:40:18 A= M=0ASubject: Re: primate watching=0A=0A=0AThis is an interesting idea, but = the analogy to bird-watching is weak. There =0Aare only a few primates that= are serously endangered, mostly the great apes, =0Aand I think that anyone= motivated by life lists would simply head for =0AMadagascar and count lemu= rs. I suspect that getting a lot of spotters into =0Athe field would have a= negative impact on the species being spotted.=0A=0AIt is worth keeping in = mind that one of the most successful measures in bird =0Aconservation is th= e habitat preservation by Ducks Unlimited, whose motive is =0Ato shoot duck= s!=0A=0ABill Silvert=0A=0A=0A- Original Message - =0AFrom: WENDEE = HOLTCAMP [EMAIL PROTECTED]=0ATo: ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU=0ASent:= Sunday, August 12, 2007 7:19 PM=0ASubject: primate watching=0A=0A=0AI rea= d something recently where someone was pondering whether we could=0A creat= e a system of primate watching, similar to birdwatching, as a way to=0A ch= annel funds into primate conservation. So instead of life lists for =0A bi= rds=0A (or in addition to) they would have life lists for primates. I thou= ght =0A this=0A was really interesting and was just going to try to pitch= an article on =0A it,=0A but now I can't seem to find it anywhere - I di= dn't find it from a google=0A search and I can't remember if I saw this in= the news or a scientific=0A journal TOC, or what. I am pretty sure it was= a primatologist or=0A biologist/ecologist making the statement.=0A=0A= =0A=0A Does this ring any bells for anyone? If so please contact me offli= st=0A [EMAIL PROTECTED]=0A Wendee=0A=0A ~= ~=0A=0A Wendee Holtcamp * Freelance Writer * = Photographer * Bohemian=0A=0A http://www.wendeeholtcamp.= com/=0A http://www.wendeeholtcamp.com=0A Bohemian Adventures Blog * ht= tp://bohemianadventures.blogspot.com/=0A http://bohemianadventures.blogsp= ot.com=0A=0A The Fish Wars: A Christian Evolutionist =0A http://thefish= wars.blogspot.com/=0A http://thefishwars.blogspot.com=0A ~~~= ~~~=0A Online Writing Course Starts Sep 15. Si= gn Up Now!=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0AJulie Wieczkowski, Ph.D.=0AAssistant Profes= sor=0ADepartment of Anthropology=0A332 Pafford=0AUniversity of West Georgia= =0ACarrollton, GA 30118=0A678-839-6458 (ph)=0A678-839-6466 (fax)=0Ajuliewhi= [EMAIL PROTECTED]/~jwhiz
Re: primate watching
Hello Judith, As a birder, ecologist, and sometimes conservation educator and environmental advocate I share your frustration with this. First of all I must emphasize that in my experience there are many, many birders who care passionately and effectively about more than their life list with respect to birds. However, after many years of trying to influence adult behavior on this point I've simply decided that the old saw it takes all kinds applies to this as well. I do believe that adult behavior sometimes can be influenced over time so giving up is not an option. But total conversion is not a realistic expectation so should not be a source of frustration. Regards, Daniel L. Tufford, Ph.D. University of South Carolina Department of Biological Sciences 209A Sumwalt(office) 701 Sumter St, Room 401(mail) Columbia, SC 29208 Ph. 803-777-3292, Fx: 803-777-3292 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] web: http://www.biol.sc.edu/~tufford -Original Message- From: Ecological Society of America: grants, jobs, news [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Judith S. Weis Sent: Monday, August 13, 2007 2:23 PM To: ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU Subject: Re: primate watching One would hope that primate watchers (or watchers of anything else) would become a bit more interested in the behaviors, life history etc. of the creatures they watch than many birders who couldn't care less about the biology of the birds they see, but just want to check them off their list. Does anybody know a way to get these people interested in the life history, behavior etc. of the birds and their conservation rather than just adding names to their lists? There are currently estimated to be 625 species and subspecies of primates,= and 26% of those are in immediate danger of extinction (Critically Endange= red or Endangered). That may seem like only a few primates to some people,= but to those of us who work in primate conservation, it is 160 taxa too ma= ny.=0A=0AAsia actually leads the world in endangered primates with 55 taxa = (some down to a handful of individuals), Neotropics with 34, Africa with 33= , and Madagascar with 28. The Primate Specialist Group of the IUCN's Speci= es Survival Commission, Conservation International, and the International P= rimatological Society put out a list of the Top 25 Most Endangered Primates= every 2 years (the list created during the 2006 IPS meetings should be rel= eased soon). As is said every other year when that list is debated, the li= st could easily be 50 or 100 species long. Check out the Red List or the 2= 004 list of the top 25 most endangered primates (http://web.conservation.or= g/xp/news/press_releases/2005/040705.xml). =0A=0AJulie Wieczkowski, admit= tedly someone who studies one of the 43 endangered primates in Africa=0A = =0A- Original Message =0AFrom: William Silvert [EMAIL PROTECTED] =0ATo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Monday, August 13, 2007 6:40:18 A= M=0ASubject: Re: primate watching=0A=0A=0AThis is an interesting idea, but = the analogy to bird-watching is weak. There =0Aare only a few primates that= are serously endangered, mostly the great apes, =0Aand I think that anyone= motivated by life lists would simply head for =0AMadagascar and count lemu= rs. I suspect that getting a lot of spotters into =0Athe field would have a= negative impact on the species being spotted.=0A=0AIt is worth keeping in = mind that one of the most successful measures in bird =0Aconservation is th= e habitat preservation by Ducks Unlimited, whose motive is =0Ato shoot duck= s!=0A=0ABill Silvert=0A=0A=0A- Original Message - =0AFrom: WENDEE = HOLTCAMP [EMAIL PROTECTED]=0ATo: ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU=0ASent:= Sunday, August 12, 2007 7:19 PM=0ASubject: primate watching=0A=0A=0AI rea= d something recently where someone was pondering whether we could=0A creat= e a system of primate watching, similar to birdwatching, as a way to=0A ch= annel funds into primate conservation. So instead of life lists for =0A bi= rds=0A (or in addition to) they would have life lists for primates. I thou= ght =0A this=0A was really interesting and was just going to try to pitch= an article on =0A it,=0A but now I can't seem to find it anywhere - I di= dn't find it from a google=0A search and I can't remember if I saw this in= the news or a scientific=0A journal TOC, or what. I am pretty sure it was= a primatologist or=0A biologist/ecologist making the statement.=0A=0A= =0A=0A Does this ring any bells for anyone? If so please contact me offli= st=0A [EMAIL PROTECTED]=0A Wendee=0A=0A ~= ~=0A=0A Wendee Holtcamp * Freelance Writer * = Photographer * Bohemian=0A=0A http://www.wendeeholtcamp.= com/=0A http://www.wendeeholtcamp.com=0A Bohemian Adventures Blog * ht= tp://bohemianadventures.blogspot.com/=0A http://bohemianadventures.blogsp= ot.com=0A=0A The Fish Wars
Re: primate watching
Judith, I certainly did not mean to suggest that birders are not interested in the objects of their attention, but they do so with a different sense of how to go about it. Just ask a birder for some information about the behavior or biology of birds they have seen, and be prepared to have a beer or two whil= e they tell their stories. I would venture to say that ALL people who are animal watchers (and even plant watchers) are interested in the animals they watch. Birds just have so many options tha they must divide their time among the many species, while primatologists often have fewer species and so devote more time to each. Jim On 8/13/07, Judith S. Weis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: One would hope that primate watchers (or watchers of anything else) would become a bit more interested in the behaviors, life history etc. of the creatures they watch than many birders who couldn't care less about the biology of the birds they see, but just want to check them off their list= . Does anybody know a way to get these people interested in the life history, behavior etc. of the birds and their conservation rather than just adding names to their lists? There are currently estimated to be 625 species and subspecies of primates,=3D and 26% of those are in immediate danger of extinction (Critically Endange=3D red or Endangered). That may seem like only a few primates to some people,=3D but to those of us who work in primate conservation, it is 160 taxa to= o ma=3D ny.=3D0A=3D0AAsia actually leads the world in endangered primates with = 55 taxa =3D (some down to a handful of individuals), Neotropics with 34, Africa wit= h 33=3D , and Madagascar with 28. The Primate Specialist Group of the IUCN's Speci=3D es Survival Commission, Conservation International, and the International P=3D rimatological Society put out a list of the Top 25 Most Endangered Primates=3D every 2 years (the list created during the 2006 IPS meetings should be rel=3D eased soon). As is said every other year when that list is debated, th= e li=3D st could easily be 50 or 100 species long. Check out the Red List or the 2=3D 004 list of the top 25 most endangered primates (http://web.conservation.or=3D g/xp/news/press_releases/2005/040705.xml). =3D0A=3D0AJulie Wieczkowsk= i, admit=3D tedly someone who studies one of the 43 endangered primates in Africa= =3D0A =3D =3D0A- Original Message =3D0AFrom: William Silvert [EMAIL PROTECTED] =3D0ATo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Monday, August 13, 2007 6:= 40:18 A=3D M=3D0ASubject: Re: primate watching=3D0A=3D0A=3D0AThis is an interestin= g idea, but =3D the analogy to bird-watching is weak. There =3D0Aare only a few primate= s that=3D are serously endangered, mostly the great apes, =3D0Aand I think that anyone=3D motivated by life lists would simply head for =3D0AMadagascar and coun= t lemu=3D rs. I suspect that getting a lot of spotters into =3D0Athe field would have a=3D negative impact on the species being spotted.=3D0A=3D0AIt is worth kee= ping in =3D mind that one of the most successful measures in bird =3D0Aconservation= is th=3D e habitat preservation by Ducks Unlimited, whose motive is =3D0Ato shoo= t duck=3D s!=3D0A=3D0ABill Silvert=3D0A=3D0A=3D0A- Original Message - =3D= 0AFrom: WENDEE =3D HOLTCAMP [EMAIL PROTECTED]=3D0ATo: ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU=3D0ASent:=3D Sunday, August 12, 2007 7:19 PM=3D0ASubject: primate watching=3D0A=3D0= A=3D0AI rea=3D d something recently where someone was pondering whether we could=3D0A creat=3D e a system of primate watching, similar to birdwatching, as a way to=3D= 0A ch=3D annel funds into primate conservation. So instead of life lists for =3D= 0A bi=3D rds=3D0A (or in addition to) they would have life lists for primates. = I thou=3D ght =3D0A this=3D0A was really interesting and was just going to try = to pitch=3D an article on =3D0A it,=3D0A but now I can't seem to find it anywher= e - I di=3D dn't find it from a google=3D0A search and I can't remember if I saw t= his in=3D the news or a scientific=3D0A journal TOC, or what. I am pretty sure = it was=3D a primatologist or=3D0A biologist/ecologist making the statement.=3D0A=3D0A=3D =3D0A=3D0A Does this ring any bells for anyone? If so please contact = me offli=3D st=3D0A [EMAIL PROTECTED]=3D0A Wendee=3D0A=3D0A ~=3D ~=3D0A=3D0A Wendee Holtcamp * Freelance W= riter * =3D Photographer * Bohemian=3D0A=3D0A http://www.wendeeholtcamp.=3D com/=3D0A http://www.wendeeholtcamp.com=3D0A Bohemian Adventures Blo= g * ht=3D tp://bohemianadventures.blogspot.com/=3D0A http://bohemianadventures.blogsp=3D ot.com=3D0A=3D0A The Fish Wars: A Christian Evolutionist =3D0A http://thefish=3D wars.blogspot.com/=3D0A http://thefishwars.blogspot.com=3D0A ~~~=3D
ECOLOGY Conservation Principles and Transformations Re: primate watching
Bill and Forum: Speaking of weak analogies, primate hunting may not be a sufficiently large sport for the duck-hunter analogy to be of much value, but one of the most insightful ecologists I have ever known, Dick Vogl, used to lecture widely on the value of the Ducks Unlimited approach for habitat preservation--an ironic but useful route to success, especially when heavy industries with political clout tend to like filling wetlands for their oil and gas depots, etc. Few took his eco-logic seriously, many rejecting it out-of-hand. Then there's the just-beginning-to-be-explored transformational concept (struggling though it may be). To illustrate, Dayton Hyde once told me that he finally figured out that probably the real reason he took up hunting ducks was to get a closer look at their incredible beauty. He told of the moment this dawned on him. Having picked up the corpse of a duck he had just shot, he was struck by the iridescent colors and beautiful form of the bird, and realized that he had just diminished that beauty (not to mention the structural and real violence used to appreciate it). He realized that the real beauty was in the live duck and its environment--earth, water, and the fire in its heart and mind, once beating and cycling much like his own. He resolved, in that moment, to work in defense of waterfowl, and that decision paid off handsomely for him, internally and financially.* A transformational moment? Hunting: a necessary or useful transition? I could tell you similar tales . . . WT * This, of course, is my version of Hyde's story; it may have suffered in the retelling, for which I apologize in advance. At 03:40 AM 8/13/2007, William Silvert wrote: This is an interesting idea, but the analogy to bird-watching is weak. There are only a few primates that are serously endangered, mostly the great apes, and I think that anyone motivated by life lists would simply head for Madagascar and count lemurs. I suspect that getting a lot of spotters into the field would have a negative impact on the species being spotted. It is worth keeping in mind that one of the most successful measures in bird conservation is the habitat preservation by Ducks Unlimited, whose motive is to shoot ducks! Bill Silvert - Original Message - From: WENDEE HOLTCAMP [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU Sent: Sunday, August 12, 2007 7:19 PM Subject: primate watching I read something recently where someone was pondering whether we could create a system of primate watching, similar to birdwatching, as a way to channel funds into primate conservation. So instead of life lists for birds (or in addition to) they would have life lists for primates. I thought this was really interesting and was just going to try to pitch an article on it, but now I can't seem to find it anywhere - I didn't find it from a google search and I can't remember if I saw this in the news or a scientific journal TOC, or what. I am pretty sure it was a primatologist or biologist/ecologist making the statement. Does this ring any bells for anyone? If so please contact me offlist [EMAIL PROTECTED] Wendee ~~ Wendee Holtcamp * Freelance Writer * Photographer * Bohemian http://www.wendeeholtcamp.com/ http://www.wendeeholtcamp.com Bohemian Adventures Blog * http://bohemianadventures.blogspot.com/ http://bohemianadventures.blogspot.com The Fish Wars: A Christian Evolutionist http://thefishwars.blogspot.com/ http://thefishwars.blogspot.com ~~ Online Writing Course Starts Sep 15. Sign Up Now!
Re: primate watching
Hi all-- I'm a primatologist and although I personally have a list, I think the reason it is harder for folks to think in terms of lists on primates is easy: there are no wild primates in the US or Europe where the bulk of the bird twitchers live. It costs money, sometimes lots of it to go see a wild primate. Birds are easy and at our backyard feeders. Laura PS And oh how I wish monkeys came to our feeders instead! :) At 6:36 PM -0300 8/13/07, James J. Roper wrote: Judith, I certainly did not mean to suggest that birders are not interested in the objects of their attention, but they do so with a different sense of how to go about it. Just ask a birder for some information about the behavior or biology of birds they have seen, and be prepared to have a beer or two while they tell their stories. I would venture to say that ALL people who are animal watchers (and even plant watchers) are interested in the animals they watch. Birds just have so many options tha they must divide their time among the many species, while primatologists often have fewer species and so devote more time to each. Jim On 8/13/07, Judith S. Weis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: One would hope that primate watchers (or watchers of anything else) would become a bit more interested in the behaviors, life history etc. of the creatures they watch than many birders who couldn't care less about the biology of the birds they see, but just want to check them off their list. Does anybody know a way to get these people interested in the life history, behavior etc. of the birds and their conservation rather than just adding names to their lists? There are currently estimated to be 625 species and subspecies of primates,= and 26% of those are in immediate danger of extinction (Critically Endange= red or Endangered). That may seem like only a few primates to some people,= but to those of us who work in primate conservation, it is 160 taxa too ma= ny.=0A=0AAsia actually leads the world in endangered primates with 55 taxa = (some down to a handful of individuals), Neotropics with 34, Africa with 33= , and Madagascar with 28. The Primate Specialist Group of the IUCN's Speci= es Survival Commission, Conservation International, and the International P= rimatological Society put out a list of the Top 25 Most Endangered Primates= every 2 years (the list created during the 2006 IPS meetings should be rel= eased soon). As is said every other year when that list is debated, the li= st could easily be 50 or 100 species long. Check out the Red List or the 2= 004 list of the top 25 most endangered primates (http://web.conservation.or= g/xp/news/press_releases/2005/040705.xml). =0A=0AJulie Wieczkowski, admit= tedly someone who studies one of the 43 endangered primates in Africa=0A = =0A- Original Message =0AFrom: William Silvert [EMAIL PROTECTED] =0ATo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Monday, August 13, 2007 6:40:18 A= M=0ASubject: Re: primate watching=0A=0A=0AThis is an interesting idea, but = the analogy to bird-watching is weak. There =0Aare only a few primates that= are serously endangered, mostly the great apes, =0Aand I think that anyone= motivated by life lists would simply head for =0AMadagascar and count lemu= rs. I suspect that getting a lot of spotters into =0Athe field would have a= negative impact on the species being spotted.=0A=0AIt is worth keeping in = mind that one of the most successful measures in bird =0Aconservation is th= e habitat preservation by Ducks Unlimited, whose motive is =0Ato shoot duck= s!=0A=0ABill Silvert=0A=0A=0A- Original Message - =0AFrom: WENDEE = HOLTCAMP [EMAIL PROTECTED]=0ATo: ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU=0ASent:= Sunday, August 12, 2007 7:19 PM=0ASubject: primate watching=0A=0A=0AI rea= d something recently where someone was pondering whether we could=0A creat= e a system of primate watching, similar to birdwatching, as a way to=0A ch= annel funds into primate conservation. So instead of life lists for =0A bi= rds=0A (or in addition to) they would have life lists for primates. I thou= ght =0A this=0A was really interesting and was just going to try to pitch= an article on =0A it,=0A but now I can't seem to find it anywhere - I di= dn't find it from a google=0A search and I can't remember if I saw this in= the news or a scientific=0A journal TOC, or what. I am pretty sure it was= a primatologist or=0A biologist/ecologist making the statement.=0A=0A= =0A=0A Does this ring any bells for anyone? If so please contact me offli= st=0A [EMAIL PROTECTED]=0A Wendee=0A=0A ~= ~=0A=0A Wendee Holtcamp * Freelance Writer * = Photographer * Bohemian=0A=0A http://www.wendeeholtcamp.= com/=0A
hunting conservation/was ECOLOGY Conservation Principles and Transformations Re: primate watching
This is a really interesting point. I wrote an article about Louisiana black bears about a year ago, a threatened subspecies of American black bear. I spent a week in the field while biologists relocated bear mommas and cubs to a different habitat in efforts to expand their range. One comment by one of the people there that week was that the best thing that could happen to the LA black bear is to make it a game species. Hunters channel a lot of funds that ultimately (usually) go into conservation. I'd be curious to know how MUCH money exactly has been channeled into conservation through hunting of various species - particularly somewhat rare species hunted in a limited manner? And in what types of scenarios does funding generated from hunting/fishing of rare species outweigh the conservation efforts obtained by listing the species as threatened or endangered? I know, for example, in Texas they give out a very small number of very high-priced permits to hunt bighorn sheep - and as I understand it, a lot of this money goes to conservation/management. I've been told the species is rare enough to be listed as threatened, but as far as I know no stink has been raised about the issue by any group. I would think that the money from hunting a few benefits the overall conservation more than putting it on the ESA. Likewise, Guadalupe Bass, Texas' state fish is nearly extinct IF You consider hybrids not really Guads. Pretty much all Guadalupe bass have hybridized with their introduced cousins - smallmouth and largemouths. (There is one pure population which, ironically, was introduced outside of its range). But listing this species on the ESA would not only be an utterly logistical nightmare (distinguishing them from stocked fish? Nearly impossible if you're talking about genetics and not morphology) it would probably NOT be the most beneficial thing for the species. Any thoughts? Any other similar cases? This has the makings of a great article :) Wendee ~~ Wendee Holtcamp * Freelance Writer * Photographer * Bohemian http://www.wendeeholtcamp.com Bohemian Adventures Blog * http://bohemianadventures.blogspot.com The Fish Wars: A Christian Evolutionist http://thefishwars.blogspot.com ~~ Online Writing Course Starts Sep 15. Sign Up Now! -Original Message- From: Ecological Society of America: grants, jobs, news [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Wayne Tyson Sent: Monday, August 13, 2007 2:43 PM To: ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU Subject: ECOLOGY Conservation Principles and Transformations Re: primate watching Bill and Forum: Speaking of weak analogies, primate hunting may not be a sufficiently large sport for the duck-hunter analogy to be of much value, but one of the most insightful ecologists I have ever known, Dick Vogl, used to lecture widely on the value of the Ducks Unlimited approach for habitat preservation--an ironic but useful route to success, especially when heavy industries with political clout tend to like filling wetlands for their oil and gas depots, etc. Few took his eco-logic seriously, many rejecting it out-of-hand. Then there's the just-beginning-to-be-explored transformational concept (struggling though it may be). To illustrate, Dayton Hyde once told me that he finally figured out that probably the real reason he took up hunting ducks was to get a closer look at their incredible beauty. He told of the moment this dawned on him. Having picked up the corpse of a duck he had just shot, he was struck by the iridescent colors and beautiful form of the bird, and realized that he had just diminished that beauty (not to mention the structural and real violence used to appreciate it). He realized that the real beauty was in the live duck and its environment--earth, water, and the fire in its heart and mind, once beating and cycling much like his own. He resolved, in that moment, to work in defense of waterfowl, and that decision paid off handsomely for him, internally and financially.* A transformational moment? Hunting: a necessary or useful transition? I could tell you similar tales . . . WT * This, of course, is my version of Hyde's story; it may have suffered in the retelling, for which I apologize in advance. At 03:40 AM 8/13/2007, William Silvert wrote: This is an interesting idea, but the analogy to bird-watching is weak. There are only a few primates that are serously endangered, mostly the great apes, and I think that anyone motivated by life lists would simply head for Madagascar and count lemurs. I suspect that getting a lot of spotters into the field would have a negative impact on the species being spotted. It is worth keeping in mind that one of the most successful measures in bird conservation is the habitat preservation by Ducks Unlimited, whose motive is to shoot ducks! Bill Silvert - Original Message - From: WENDEE HOLTCAMP
primate watching
I read something recently where someone was pondering whether we could create a system of primate watching, similar to birdwatching, as a way to channel funds into primate conservation. So instead of life lists for birds (or in addition to) they would have life lists for primates. I thought this was really interesting and was just going to try to pitch an article on it, but now I can't seem to find it anywhere - I didn't find it from a google search and I can't remember if I saw this in the news or a scientific journal TOC, or what. I am pretty sure it was a primatologist or biologist/ecologist making the statement. Does this ring any bells for anyone? If so please contact me offlist [EMAIL PROTECTED] Wendee ~~ Wendee Holtcamp * Freelance Writer * Photographer * Bohemian http://www.wendeeholtcamp.com/ http://www.wendeeholtcamp.com Bohemian Adventures Blog * http://bohemianadventures.blogspot.com/ http://bohemianadventures.blogspot.com The Fish Wars: A Christian Evolutionist http://thefishwars.blogspot.com/ http://thefishwars.blogspot.com ~~ Online Writing Course Starts Sep 15. Sign Up Now!
