Re: [Elecraft] [AX1] Who has the AX1 antenna DX record?
About RBN and AX1, here are some results I got recently (KX2, 13' counterpoise, 10 Watts). (In the last column I added the distance from my station): ... VE6JY VE2PID 14033 CW CQ [LoTW] 26 dB 18 wpm 2005z 24 May 3045 km WE9V VE2PID 14032.9 CW CQ [LoTW] 33 dB 18 wpm 2004z 24 May 1327 km K9IMM VE2PID 14033 CW CQ [LoTW] 25 dB 18 wpm 2003z 24 May 1452 km KS4XQ VE2PID 14033 CW CQ [LoTW] 19 dB 18 wpm 2002z 24 May 1489 km K3PA VE2PID 14033 CW CQ [LoTW] 20 dB 18 wpm 2002z 24 May 2014 km KO7SS-2 VE2PID 14033 CW CQ [LoTW] 19 dB 18 wpm 2002z 24 May 2184 km ... 73, Pierre VE2PID __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] [AX1] Who has the AX1 antenna DX record?
While these anecdotes and even the modeling results are interesting, they provide only a measure of insight into the questions about any antennas performance. Midway between them and using WSPRLite to compare two antennas, in this case one with a counterpoise and one without, the Reverse Beacon Network or WSPR Reporter would give far more insight than modeling and contacts made. The RBN will give near real time results for locations where there are receivers and where propagation exists. If you used CW to call CQ, you could download that day's data and view the RBN results of your CQ's. There are many more WSPR receiving sites, but that would require using a computer with one's portable transceiver. If additional weight, time, and a small amount of battery capacity aren't big issues, bring along a WSPRLite transmitter. Spend as much time as you are able and willing then analyze the data at the WSPRLite DXplorer web site. Bring a friend with his or her gear and another WSPRLite transmitter and you'll get real data comparing the two configurations from on-the-air tests that are meaningful. You can find a copy of my presentation on the subject at: http://caravan-club.squarespace.com/s/2018-May-Mader-HF_Antennas_and_Propagation.pdf. If you're at Ham-Com this coming weekend, I will give an updated version there on Friday at 1:00 p.m. CDT. 73, Bill, K8TE P.S. I have no pecuniary interest in WSPRLite other than having purchased a couple plus accessories. "PierreNot too shabby! "I made a "DX" contact with a fellow in Ontario from a site in NW Georgia in the US. It may not be my farthest, but it was another country :-) "This was a couple of weeks ago with the KX3 on 20 meters SSB , 15 watts (external battery), AX1 attached to radio and 13' counterpoise. "I was perched atop a rock wall overlooking a lake on one side (facing Canada). "Hoping to do some hiking this weekend and a SOTA summit (or two). Just bought the BNC to binding post adapter to try my hand at 40 meters. "I love the AX1 setup - can't hardly wait for the 40 meter version! "Hank K4HYJ" -- Sent from: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/ __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] [AX1] Who has the AX1 antenna DX record?
> In your simulation, between the vertical polarization and the horizontal polarization in their respective maximum directions, which was stronger? In the direction of the horizontal counterpoise, takeoff angle (max) is 60 degrees and vert polarization only, gain of -2,48 dBi. At right angle with the counterpoise, takeoff angle (max) is right up at 90 degrees with horizontal polarization only with a gain of -3,31 dBi (if the word horizontal has a sense there ...) 73, Pierre VE2PID __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] [AX1] Who has the AX1 antenna DX record?
That is certainly true. In your simulation, between the vertical polarization and the horizontal polarization in their respective maximum directions, which was stronger? 73, Dave AB7E On 5/29/2019 6:06 PM, VE2PID wrote: ... Obtained by NEC simulation for the AX1 installed at 4 feet above average ground: If you place yourself in front of the antenna and in the direction of the 13' horizontal counterpoise, the signal received will only be vertically polarized for all takeoff angles. But if you test it in a different direction, the polarization becomes oblique. At 90 degrees from the direction of the counterpoise, the components of the signal received will be mostly horizontally polarized for a takeoff angle of 32 degrees or more and at lower angles, the vertical component is higher. So depending of the azimuth, the main 'contributor' to the polarization will be the vertical or the counterpoise ... 73, Pierre VE2PID __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] [AX1] Who has the AX1 antenna DX record?
Part of the charm of a short whip with a dragged counterpoise is that its directivity from moment to moment is as mysterious as propagation itself. As with good fiction, it's best to suspend disbelief. Just work 'em. 73, Wayne N6KR > On May 29, 2019, at 6:06 PM, VE2PID wrote: > > ... Obtained by NEC simulation for the AX1 installed at 4 feet above average > ground: If you place yourself in front of the antenna and in the direction of > the 13' horizontal counterpoise, the signal received will only be vertically > polarized for all takeoff angles. > > But if you test it in a different direction, the polarization becomes > oblique. At 90 degrees from the direction of the counterpoise, the components > of the signal received will be mostly horizontally polarized for a takeoff > angle of 32 degrees or more and at lower angles, the vertical component is > higher. > > So depending of the azimuth, the main 'contributor' to the polarization will > be the vertical or the counterpoise ... > > 73, Pierre VE2PID __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] [AX1] Who has the AX1 antenna DX record?
... Obtained by NEC simulation for the AX1 installed at 4 feet above average ground: If you place yourself in front of the antenna and in the direction of the 13' horizontal counterpoise, the signal received will only be vertically polarized for all takeoff angles. But if you test it in a different direction, the polarization becomes oblique. At 90 degrees from the direction of the counterpoise, the components of the signal received will be mostly horizontally polarized for a takeoff angle of 32 degrees or more and at lower angles, the vertical component is higher. So depending of the azimuth, the main 'contributor' to the polarization will be the vertical or the counterpoise ... 73, Pierre VE2PID __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] [AX1] Who has the AX1 antenna DX record?
David, You're correct: with a high-Q loaded whip, especially on the low bands, position of the counterpoise relative to ground, structures and vegetation has a major impact. In some cases the counterpoise itself radiates more. On top of that, the SWR can vary all over the map depending on counterpoise characteristics and terrain. This is why the AXE1 literature will specify that an ATU is required. Under all but ideal static conditions, SWR is unpredictable and the ATU will be required for transmit matching. 73, Wayne N6KR > On May 29, 2019, at 4:56 PM, David Gilbert wrote: > > > It's not the takeoff angle that makes the difference here. The takeoff angle > of a half wave vertical dipole over real ground is not much different than > the takeoff angle of a quarter wave (or shorter) vertical fed against a > ground plane or counterpoise. > > I'm pretty sure that what's really going on here is that as you make the > counterpoise wire more vertical the counterpoise is becoming the primary > radiating element The AX1 essentially becomes a loaded "counterpoise" for > the vertical trailing wire. I wouldn't be surprised if the counterpoise wire > does most of the radiating even if trailed across the ground, although much > of it would be lost to the lossy earth and the rest pointed upward. If we > were able to model the AX1 with the counterpoise we'd most likely see that > the integral of current as a function of length for the counterpoise wire > exceeds that of the AX1, and if the AX1 was vertical and the counterpoise > horizontal most of the radiated energy would be horizontally polarized. > Somebody could easily prove (or disprove) this with a short sense antenna and > a field strength meter. > > I suspect lots of people won't like this perspective, but there it is. > > 73, > Dave AB7E > > > > > On 5/29/2019 1:52 PM, Adam Goler wrote: >> I also anecdotally observed greater propagation with the counterpoise wire >> hanging vertically this past weekend. >> >> Intuitively, using a vertical counterpoise, as the "feedpoint" increases in >> height away from the ground plane of the Earth, the takeoff angle should >> decrease as the radiation pattern more and more resembles a free-space >> vertically oriented dipole field (picture a field shaped like a donut). >> >> >>> ------------------ >>> >>> Message: 1 >>> Date: Tue, 28 May 2019 13:24:03 -0400 >>> From: Hank >>> To: VE2PID , elecraft@mailman.qth.net >>> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [AX1] Who has the AX1 antenna DX record? >>> Message-ID: <5bd0e4be75154c7f58e74eb7ee1b7...@optilink.us> >>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 >>> >>> >>> Good info! >>> >>> I have noticed from operating in the field that I make more contacts if I >>> lay the counterpoise along the ground. ?I get better signal reports from >>> stations in the direction of the counterpoise. >>> >>> I noticed from operating this weekend at an overlook that with the >>> counterpoise over the side of the overlook going down hill at roughly 30 >>> degrees, my contacts were clustered farther away - again in the direction >>> of the counterpoise. >>> >>> I was operating on 20 and 17 with the AX1, KX3, SSB at 15 watts. >>> >>> Hank >>> K4HYJ >>> ? >>> - Original Message - >>> From: VE2PID (ve2...@videotron.ca) >>> Date: 05/28/19 11:30 >>> To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net >>> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [AX1] Who has the AX1 antenna DX record? >>> >>> ... I used the AX1 as a test in WPX CW last weekend for only an hour on >>> a picnic table. No problem ...in that time I got 13 QSOs from FN45 >>> including FL. (10 Watts KX2, 13' counterpoise). >>> -- >>> After NEC simulations (0.005, 13 average ground) , we find how the gain >>> is maximized in the direction of the counterpoise. On 20 meters, if the >>> wire is horizontal at 4 feet height, the take-off angle is about 56 >>> degrees. But if the wire goes down from 4 feet to the ground (15 degrees >>> slope), the F/B is less but the take off angle is lower at 35 degrees >>> >>> (Image at https://i.imgur.com/XKPjM8T.jpg ) >>> >>> 73, Pierre VE2PID >>> >>> __ >>> Elecraft mailing list >>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft >>> Help: http://mailman.qth.ne
Re: [Elecraft] [AX1] Who has the AX1 antenna DX record?
It's not the takeoff angle that makes the difference here. The takeoff angle of a half wave vertical dipole over real ground is not much different than the takeoff angle of a quarter wave (or shorter) vertical fed against a ground plane or counterpoise. I'm pretty sure that what's really going on here is that as you make the counterpoise wire more vertical the counterpoise is becoming the primary radiating element The AX1 essentially becomes a loaded "counterpoise" for the vertical trailing wire. I wouldn't be surprised if the counterpoise wire does most of the radiating even if trailed across the ground, although much of it would be lost to the lossy earth and the rest pointed upward. If we were able to model the AX1 with the counterpoise we'd most likely see that the integral of current as a function of length for the counterpoise wire exceeds that of the AX1, and if the AX1 was vertical and the counterpoise horizontal most of the radiated energy would be horizontally polarized. Somebody could easily prove (or disprove) this with a short sense antenna and a field strength meter. I suspect lots of people won't like this perspective, but there it is. 73, Dave AB7E On 5/29/2019 1:52 PM, Adam Goler wrote: I also anecdotally observed greater propagation with the counterpoise wire hanging vertically this past weekend. Intuitively, using a vertical counterpoise, as the "feedpoint" increases in height away from the ground plane of the Earth, the takeoff angle should decrease as the radiation pattern more and more resembles a free-space vertically oriented dipole field (picture a field shaped like a donut). -- Message: 1 Date: Tue, 28 May 2019 13:24:03 -0400 From: Hank To: VE2PID , elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [AX1] Who has the AX1 antenna DX record? Message-ID: <5bd0e4be75154c7f58e74eb7ee1b7...@optilink.us> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Good info! I have noticed from operating in the field that I make more contacts if I lay the counterpoise along the ground. ?I get better signal reports from stations in the direction of the counterpoise. I noticed from operating this weekend at an overlook that with the counterpoise over the side of the overlook going down hill at roughly 30 degrees, my contacts were clustered farther away - again in the direction of the counterpoise. I was operating on 20 and 17 with the AX1, KX3, SSB at 15 watts. Hank K4HYJ ? - Original Message - From: VE2PID (ve2...@videotron.ca) Date: 05/28/19 11:30 To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [AX1] Who has the AX1 antenna DX record? ... I used the AX1 as a test in WPX CW last weekend for only an hour on a picnic table. No problem ...in that time I got 13 QSOs from FN45 including FL. (10 Watts KX2, 13' counterpoise). -- After NEC simulations (0.005, 13 average ground) , we find how the gain is maximized in the direction of the counterpoise. On 20 meters, if the wire is horizontal at 4 feet height, the take-off angle is about 56 degrees. But if the wire goes down from 4 feet to the ground (15 degrees slope), the F/B is less but the take off angle is lower at 35 degrees (Image at https://i.imgur.com/XKPjM8T.jpg ) 73, Pierre VE2PID __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] [AX1] Who has the AX1 antenna DX record?
I also anecdotally observed greater propagation with the counterpoise wire hanging vertically this past weekend. Intuitively, using a vertical counterpoise, as the "feedpoint" increases in height away from the ground plane of the Earth, the takeoff angle should decrease as the radiation pattern more and more resembles a free-space vertically oriented dipole field (picture a field shaped like a donut). > > -- > > Message: 1 > Date: Tue, 28 May 2019 13:24:03 -0400 > From: Hank > To: VE2PID , elecraft@mailman.qth.net > Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [AX1] Who has the AX1 antenna DX record? > Message-ID: <5bd0e4be75154c7f58e74eb7ee1b7...@optilink.us> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 > > > Good info! > > I have noticed from operating in the field that I make more contacts if I > lay the counterpoise along the ground. ?I get better signal reports from > stations in the direction of the counterpoise. > > I noticed from operating this weekend at an overlook that with the > counterpoise over the side of the overlook going down hill at roughly 30 > degrees, my contacts were clustered farther away - again in the direction > of the counterpoise. > > I was operating on 20 and 17 with the AX1, KX3, SSB at 15 watts. > > Hank > K4HYJ > ? > - Original Message - > From: VE2PID (ve2...@videotron.ca) > Date: 05/28/19 11:30 > To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net > Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [AX1] Who has the AX1 antenna DX record? > > ... I used the AX1 as a test in WPX CW last weekend for only an hour on > a picnic table. No problem ...in that time I got 13 QSOs from FN45 > including FL. (10 Watts KX2, 13' counterpoise). > -- > After NEC simulations (0.005, 13 average ground) , we find how the gain > is maximized in the direction of the counterpoise. On 20 meters, if the > wire is horizontal at 4 feet height, the take-off angle is about 56 > degrees. But if the wire goes down from 4 feet to the ground (15 degrees > slope), the F/B is less but the take off angle is lower at 35 degrees > > (Image at https://i.imgur.com/XKPjM8T.jpg ) > > 73, Pierre VE2PID > > __ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > -- Adam Goler, PhD Cell: (425) 985 8700 "Fear is the mind killer." __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] [AX1] Who has the AX1 antenna DX record?
Good info! I have noticed from operating in the field that I make more contacts if I lay the counterpoise along the ground. I get better signal reports from stations in the direction of the counterpoise. I noticed from operating this weekend at an overlook that with the counterpoise over the side of the overlook going down hill at roughly 30 degrees, my contacts were clustered farther away - again in the direction of the counterpoise. I was operating on 20 and 17 with the AX1, KX3, SSB at 15 watts. Hank K4HYJ - Original Message - From: VE2PID (ve2...@videotron.ca) Date: 05/28/19 11:30 To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [AX1] Who has the AX1 antenna DX record? ... I used the AX1 as a test in WPX CW last weekend for only an hour on a picnic table. No problem ...in that time I got 13 QSOs from FN45 including FL. (10 Watts KX2, 13' counterpoise). -- After NEC simulations (0.005, 13 average ground) , we find how the gain is maximized in the direction of the counterpoise. On 20 meters, if the wire is horizontal at 4 feet height, the take-off angle is about 56 degrees. But if the wire goes down from 4 feet to the ground (15 degrees slope), the F/B is less but the take off angle is lower at 35 degrees (Image at https://i.imgur.com/XKPjM8T.jpg ) 73, Pierre VE2PID __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] [AX1] Who has the AX1 antenna DX record?
... I used the AX1 as a test in WPX CW last weekend for only an hour on a picnic table. No problem ...in that time I got 13 QSOs from FN45 including FL. (10 Watts KX2, 13' counterpoise). -- After NEC simulations (0.005, 13 average ground) , we find how the gain is maximized in the direction of the counterpoise. On 20 meters, if the wire is horizontal at 4 feet height, the take-off angle is about 56 degrees. But if the wire goes down from 4 feet to the ground (15 degrees slope), the F/B is less but the take off angle is lower at 35 degrees (Image at https://i.imgur.com/XKPjM8T.jpg ) 73, Pierre VE2PID __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] [AX1] Who has the AX1 antenna DX record?
PierreNot too shabby! I made a "DX" contact with a fellow in Ontario from a site in NW Georgia in the US. It may not be my farthest, but it was another country :-) This was a couple of weeks ago with the KX3 on 20 meters SSB , 15 watts (external battery), AX1 attached to radio and 13' counterpoise. I was perched atop a rock wall overlooking a lake on one side (facing Canada). Hoping to do some hiking this weekend and a SOTA summit (or two). Just bought the BNC to binding post adapter to try my hand at 40 meters. I love the AX1 setup - can't hardly wait for the 40 meter version! Hank K4HYJ K3S, P3, KX3 - Original Message - From: VE2PID (ve2...@videotron.ca) Date: 05/22/19 19:01 To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: [Elecraft] [AX1] Who has the AX1 antenna DX record? Not a record, but today I made my first DX/EU using the AX1. My setup was a KX2, CW, 10W and the 13' counterpoise. SM3GSK at 5630 km returned me a 559. BTW ...As an alternative to a tripod, I fixed the antenna support to a picnic table using 2 common tablecloth clamps. Photo here: https://i.imgur.com/I4TPRNX.jpg 73, Pierre VE2PID __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] [AX1] Who has the AX1 antenna DX record?
Pierre, I love simple, brilliant solutions. Thanks for the idea. Bob, KA2TQV On Wednesday, May 22, 2019, 6:58 PM, VE2PID wrote: Not a record, but today I made my first DX/EU using the AX1. My setup was a KX2, CW, 10W and the 13' counterpoise. SM3GSK at 5630 km returned me a 559. BTW ...As an alternative to a tripod, I fixed the antenna support to a picnic table using 2 common tablecloth clamps. Photo here: https://i.imgur.com/I4TPRNX.jpg 73, Pierre VE2PID __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
[Elecraft] [AX1] Who has the AX1 antenna DX record?
Not a record, but today I made my first DX/EU using the AX1. My setup was a KX2, CW, 10W and the 13' counterpoise. SM3GSK at 5630 km returned me a 559. BTW ...As an alternative to a tripod, I fixed the antenna support to a picnic table using 2 common tablecloth clamps. Photo here: https://i.imgur.com/I4TPRNX.jpg 73, Pierre VE2PID __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
