Re: [Elecraft] After Rob Sherwood's Talk at Dayton
OMG FREE HAT!!! Welcome to a group of proud radio owners and great service for a great company. 73, Fred/N0AZZ K3 Ser #'s 6730/5299--KX3 # 2573--K2/100--KAT100 P3/SVGA--KPA500--KAT500--W2 -Original Message- From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Chris Pinholster Sent: Saturday, June 08, 2013 10:29 PM To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: [Elecraft] After Rob Sherwood's Talk at Dayton Hello to the fine folks on this reflector: I am a new Elecraft K3 owner, I received mine yesterday. I made my decision right after I heard Sherwood speak in the Drake forum at Dayton. He gave high praise to the K3, and I thought gave short thrift to the Orion 565, which I owned. After the forum was over, I approached Sherwood, asked him about his Orion remarks and the comparison to the K3. He answered me politely and directly. He was exactly right about the Orion. The encounter with Rob convinced me. I went directly to the Elecraft booth and ordered my K3 and P3 combo. I had been reading for some time about the great treatment owners receive from Elecraft. (I got the free hat) and I look forward to a long relationship with Elecraft. My Orion will be up for sale shortly, along with a few other radios to lessen the economic blow. Regards, Chris k4...@mac.com P.S. I'm keeping most of my Drake gear. (I like old toys too) Sent from my iPad __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2904 / Virus Database: 3199/6394 - Release Date: 06/08/13 __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] After Rob Sherwood's Talk at Dayton
Chris Pinholster wrote I am a new Elecraft K3 owner, I received mine yesterday. I made my decision right after I heard Sherwood speak in the Drake forum at Dayton. He gave high praise to the K3, and I thought gave short thrift to the Orion 565, which I owned. After the forum was over, I approached Sherwood, asked him about his Orion remarks and the comparison to the K3. He answered me politely and directly. He was exactly right about the Orion. The encounter with Rob convinced me. When Orion was first introduced in 2003 it was the best performing radio available. Unfortunately Ten-Tec management then went through a dry spell with uncharacteristically poor responsiveness and firmware support. Since John Henry took over engineering a few years ago, Ten-Tec has turned around and done several good things to refresh Orion including a really good Sub-RX instead of the poor one in the original unit. IMHO Orion remains one of the better rigs available today. There are still some things about it I miss (such as the flexible antenna selection matrix...not possible in the K3 due to limited front panel space). The moral to this story for any company is to always maintain responsiveness to customer input. So far that remains one of Elecraft's stellar strengths. 73, Bill W4ZV -- View this message in context: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/After-Rob-Sherwood-s-Talk-at-Dayton-tp7574928p7574931.html Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] A Rob Sherwood's talk in Dayton
Bill K9YEQ wrote Glad I never discussed the same issue with the wife when I bought the K2. I now own the K3 and KX3. The K2 is my hearty backup in case of issues. The K2/10 remains a very capable rig for portable use and SOTA activating. While the KX3 has several advantages including weight and size, I've not yet been compelled to get one. If I really want light weight (3 ounces) and small size (Altoids tin), I take my ATS-3. Part of my love for the K2 is from building it myself in 2004...it might be for sale after I leave planet Earth. Here's a little story about SOTA activating using the K2 in the recent QRPTTF event: http://www.uwharrieqrp.com/2013/04/qrpttf-and-rocky-knob-w4cem-047.html 73, Bill W4ZV -- View this message in context: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/A-Rob-Sherwood-s-talk-in-Dayton-tp7574814p7574932.html Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] A Rob Sherwood's talk in Dayton
I have all 3 radios a K2/K3/KX3 the K2 was pretty much set aside when the K3 came home to me. Everything the K2 did the K3 did much better from QRP up and all modes I loved the radio and for a while the K2 sat till I decided to use it again for QRP. It is a keeper because I built it and built and rebuilt it till it finally worked fine with some help from Don. That was the case till I decided to buy the KX3 with all options at 1/4 the size of the K2. It blew my K2 away with all it had packed into such a small package and the really great receiver. Again the K2 was not being used for months till I loaned to a new ham to use that I knew for a month or so (now a Elecraft K3 owner) as of last week. When I got it back I decided to make better use of the radios that I own and that the K2 would be devoted to digital modes only. JT65HF/JT-9/PSK/RTTY is where most all the traffic is at any more so why not take advantage of them with a dedicated radio/computer have 3 in the shack. It seems most all of my contacts in the last couple of months have been QRP my amps haven't even been turned on. 73, Fred/N0AZZ K3 Ser #'s 6730/5299--KX3 # 2573--K2/100--KAT100 P3/SVGA--KPA500--KAT500--W2 -Original Message- From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Bill W4ZV Sent: Sunday, June 09, 2013 5:22 AM To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] A Rob Sherwood's talk in Dayton Bill K9YEQ wrote Glad I never discussed the same issue with the wife when I bought the K2. I now own the K3 and KX3. The K2 is my hearty backup in case of issues. The K2/10 remains a very capable rig for portable use and SOTA activating. While the KX3 has several advantages including weight and size, I've not yet been compelled to get one. If I really want light weight (3 ounces) and small size (Altoids tin), I take my ATS-3. Part of my love for the K2 is from building it myself in 2004...it might be for sale after I leave planet Earth. Here's a little story about SOTA activating using the K2 in the recent QRPTTF event: http://www.uwharrieqrp.com/2013/04/qrpttf-and-rocky-knob-w4cem-047.html 73, Bill W4ZV -- View this message in context: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/A-Rob-Sherwood-s-talk-in-Dayton-tp75748 14p7574932.html Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2904 / Virus Database: 3199/6394 - Release Date: 06/08/13 __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] A Rob Sherwood's talk in Dayton
Is a KX3 REALLY 1/4 the size of a K2? On 6/9/2013 3:54 AM, Fred Smith wrote: That was the case till I decided to buy the KX3 with all options at 1/4 the size of the K2. It blew my K2 away with all it had packed into such a small package and the really great receiver. Again the K2 was not being used for months till I loaned to a new ham to use that I knew for a month or so (now a Elecraft K3 owner) as of last week. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] A Rob Sherwood's talk in Dayton
Actually it is a bit less than 1/4 the volume of the K2. The Front Panel is about 1/2 inch less in length and about 3/16 inch greater in height (width for the KX3). The K2 is 8.5 inches deep, and the KX3 is a bit less than 1.75 inches deep. 73, Don W3FPR On 6/9/2013 3:18 PM, Fred Jensen wrote: Is a KX3 REALLY 1/4 the size of a K2? On 6/9/2013 3:54 AM, Fred Smith wrote: That was the case till I decided to buy the KX3 with all options at 1/4 the size of the K2. It blew my K2 away with all it had packed into such a small package and the really great receiver. Again the K2 was not being used for months till I loaned to a new ham to use that I knew for a month or so (now a Elecraft K3 owner) as of last week. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] A Rob Sherwood's talk in Dayton
Yes very close. 73, Fred/N0AZZ -Original Message- From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Fred Jensen Sent: Sunday, June 09, 2013 2:19 PM To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] A Rob Sherwood's talk in Dayton Is a KX3 REALLY 1/4 the size of a K2? On 6/9/2013 3:54 AM, Fred Smith wrote: That was the case till I decided to buy the KX3 with all options at 1/4 the size of the K2. It blew my K2 away with all it had packed into such a small package and the really great receiver. Again the K2 was not being used for months till I loaned to a new ham to use that I knew for a month or so (now a Elecraft K3 owner) as of last week. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2012.0.2242 / Virus Database: 3199/5894 - Release Date: 06/08/13 __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] A Rob Sherwood's talk in Dayton
Hey, Don. I like the sound of my old 1950's metal National Speaker. True is has a bit more bass than needed but the K3 sounds much mellower than the internal speaker. For really tough to hear signals I use headphones, anyway. I eventually will replace the cheap HK computer speakers used with my KX3 with probably the West Mountain comm speaker (immune to RFI). 73, Ed - KL7UW http://www.kl7uw.com dubus...@gmail.com Kits made by KL7UW __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] A Rob Sherwood's talk in Dayton
However, this needs expansion. The QRP K2 and the QRO K2 are the same size. The QRP KX3 is small as described but to make it QRO by adding the 100W amp it will probably be a close comparison. Comments on the list indicate that the amp is not tiny. With respect to features, that's altogether another story. Regards, Mike VP8NO K2 #1400 K3 #345 On 09/06/2013 17:59, Fred Smith wrote: Yes very close. 73, Fred/N0AZZ -Original Message- From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Fred Jensen Sent: Sunday, June 09, 2013 2:19 PM To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] A Rob Sherwood's talk in Dayton Is a KX3 REALLY 1/4 the size of a K2? On 6/9/2013 3:54 AM, Fred Smith wrote: That was the case till I decided to buy the KX3 with all options at 1/4 the size of the K2. It blew my K2 away with all it had packed into such a small package and the really great receiver. Again the K2 was not being used for months till I loaned to a new ham to use that I knew for a month or so (now a Elecraft K3 owner) as of last week. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] A Rob Sherwood's talk in Dayton
...and I love the sound of the speaker for my old 1947 RME 45 receiver, but its steel cabinet is over 60 times the size (volume) of my KX3, and weighs at least 10 times more, so I just can't see using it with the KX3. ;-) Mark KE6BB From: Edward R Cole kl...@acsalaska.net To: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net Sent: Sunday, June 9, 2013 2:25 PM Subject: Re: [Elecraft] A Rob Sherwood's talk in Dayton Hey, Don. I like the sound of my old 1950's metal National Speaker. True is has a bit more bass than needed but the K3 sounds much mellower than the internal speaker. For really tough to hear signals I use headphones, anyway. I eventually will replace the cheap HK computer speakers used with my KX3 with probably the West Mountain comm speaker (immune to RFI). 73, Ed - KL7UW http://www.kl7uw.com dubus...@gmail.com Kits made by KL7UW __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] A Rob Sherwood's talk in Dayton
On 6/9/2013 3:06 PM, Mark Petiford wrote: ...and I love the sound of the speaker for my old 1947 RME 45 receiver, but its steel cabinet is over 60 times the size (volume) of my KX3, and weighs at least 10 times more, so I just can't see using it with the KX3. ;-) Prior to getting the SX-28 at 15, I had an RME45. Both were very good protection against gravity outages. Although I've solved the problem now, for quite awhile I had a real problem with my K3 and P3 being too light ... tapping and holding pushed them rather than the buttons around. How time changes things! 73, Fred K6DGW - Northern California Contest Club - CU in the 2013 Cal QSO Party 5-6 Oct 2013 - www.cqp.org __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] A Rob Sherwood's talk in Dayton
I agree with Fred and with Elecraft's position on product support. When I went hat in hand to appeal with my wife to agree to spend roughly $3K for a new ham radio, it was with the understanding that it was the last (major) ham purchase I would make. The continuous improvement and support of the K3 make it possible for me to keep that promise, as I see the radio evolving for long time. This is the promise that SDR makes (but only Elecraft actually does). I did squeak out buying the KX3, but the cost was largely offset by the sale of my Yaesu radios (FT-847 FT-817). Already several firmware improvements for the KX3, as well as the K3. How could you not like that (rhetorical question)? 73, Ed - KL7UW BTW when I bought the K3, I also paid off my wife's new Toyota Van loan (me no dummy). --- Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2013 12:13:48 -0500 From: Fred Smith m...@totalhighspeed.com To: 'Wayne Burdick' n...@elecraft.com, 'Keith-K5ENS' ke...@kathyandkeith.mx Cc: 'Elecraft Reflector' elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] A Rob Sherwood's talk in Dayton Message-ID: 002901ce63a2$60751260$215f3720$@com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Yup, Yup and Yup that's the reason I have Elecraft gear. Not buying new radio gear every 2 years like I did with my Yaesu and Icom gear. I for one agree with the business model and great equipment. 73, Ed - KL7UW http://www.kl7uw.com dubus...@gmail.com Kits made by KL7UW __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] A Rob Sherwood's talk in Dayton
On Sat, Jun 8, 2013 at 3:04 AM, Edward R Cole kl...@acsalaska.net wrote: ...the promise that SDR makes (but only Elecraft actually does) === I owned two of the vaunted SDR transceivers. Their hardware design is flawed (sudden power spikes that could blow an amp, no QSK, poor auto-tune, and other miscellaneous stuff), but more to the point that Ed mentions, each of their much-trumpeted software updated brought an immediate flood of bug reports (some quite serious) from users that indicated that little or no testing had been done via on-air operation. Add to that the fact a K3 with LP-Pan and NaP3 offers a complete superset of their capabilities, and the choice was oh so obvious. Tony KT0NY __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] A Rob Sherwood's talk in Dayton
I guess we are arguing quibbles here, Don. Of course youre correct in your comments regarding powered/unpowered speakers. My ancient Yamaha YST-M101's, which are my primary station speakers on the line output of my K3, sound just fine to me! But since I usually use headphones, I rarely listen through them anyhow. But still, when I do listen without headphones, Im a happy guy (especially after the K3DSP mod was installed! The buzzy flyback-transformer-like high end artifacts are now GONE!) I think this entire argument is moot, but then I had to throw my hat into the ring... I made a pretty good living making good audio and video, and still do. The K3 sound just fine to me the way it is. Waiting for the note from the Moderator that we have beat this subject to death already. -lu- W4LT - Message: 9 Date: Fri, 07 Jun 2013 21:21:02 -0400 From: Don Wilhelm w3...@embarqmail.com To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] A Rob Sherwood's talk in Dayton Message-ID: 51b286fe.5090...@embarqmail.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed I do not read Wayne's response that way at all. The issue has been fixed except perhaps for all but the most discerning ears (audiophiles). Wayne has 'musician ears', and would not make statements like that if not good to his ears. As far as the K3 audio being better on powered external speakers than with un-powered speakers, think about that for a minute. Good powered speakers should faithfully replicate the input signal, and that includes any distortion products that may be present in the input signal. Good unpowered speakers should produce an even cleaner output because the input signal is not further distorted by the characteristics of the powered speakers. Unfortunately, good unpowered speakers are not the metal cased 8 inch speakers that were available with old National or Hallicrafters receivers, they have a lot of bass response and color the signal a LOT. They may sound good to many ears, but are not a faithful representation of the input signal. Try some high efficiency good quality bookshelf speakers for a fair comparison. If one wants a Hi-Fi output, then it is time to shop the audiophile stores for speakers rather than the consumer grade computer (and iPod) speakers that are commonly used. 73, Don W3FPR __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] A Rob Sherwood's talk in Dayton
On Jun 8, 2013, at 10:11 AM, Luis V. Romero lrom...@ij.net wrote: stuff deleted Waiting for the note from the Moderator that we have beat this subject to death already. I think very few subjects are beaten to death on this forum since they always seem to keep coming back and alive time to time. Good for me because I usually don't get the finer points of the debate until the third or forth time around. peh __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] A Rob Sherwood's talk in Dayton
From what point (date or serial number) was the K3DSP mod included? I have never tried the K3's line out for my amplified speakers. I use the Behringer MS40s fed from a Behringer 802 mixer. Thanks, Bill W2BLC __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] A Rob Sherwood's talk in Dayton
Your answer lies here: http://www.elecraft.com/K3/mods/dsp_rev_c_information.htm Bruce N1RX From what point (date or serial number) was the K3DSP mod included? __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] A Rob Sherwood's talk in Dayton
Ed, Glad I never discussed the same issue with the wife when I bought the K2. I now own the K3 and KX3. The K2 is my hearty backup in case of issues. The Kx3 is my living room radio, if you can believe it. The KX3 can be routed through my THP 2.5 for a 300 watt signal provided I have selected and tuned for the correct band while in the living room. The wife, pretends to be somewhat oblivious She's a keeper, esp. after nearly 40 years. 73, Bill K9YEQ -Original Message- From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Edward R Cole Sent: Saturday, June 08, 2013 3:04 AM To: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] A Rob Sherwood's talk in Dayton I agree with Fred and with Elecraft's position on product support. When I went hat in hand to appeal with my wife to agree to spend roughly $3K for a new ham radio, it was with the understanding that it was the last (major) ham purchase I would make. The continuous improvement and support of the K3 make it possible for me to keep that promise, as I see the radio evolving for long time. This is the promise that SDR makes (but only Elecraft actually does). I did squeak out buying the KX3, but the cost was largely offset by the sale of my Yaesu radios (FT-847 FT-817). Already several firmware improvements for the KX3, as well as the K3. How could you not like that (rhetorical question)? 73, Ed - KL7UW BTW when I bought the K3, I also paid off my wife's new Toyota Van loan (me no dummy). --- Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2013 12:13:48 -0500 From: Fred Smith m...@totalhighspeed.com To: 'Wayne Burdick' n...@elecraft.com, 'Keith-K5ENS' ke...@kathyandkeith.mx Cc: 'Elecraft Reflector' elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] A Rob Sherwood's talk in Dayton Message-ID: 002901ce63a2$60751260$215f3720$@com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Yup, Yup and Yup that's the reason I have Elecraft gear. Not buying new radio gear every 2 years like I did with my Yaesu and Icom gear. I for one agree with the business model and great equipment. 73, Ed - KL7UW http://www.kl7uw.com dubus...@gmail.com Kits made by KL7UW __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] A Rob Sherwood's talk in Dayton
On 6/8/2013 3:09 PM, Bill K9YEQ wrote: Ed, Glad I never discussed the same issue with the wife when I bought the K2. I now own the K3 and KX3. The K2 is my hearty backup in case of issues. The Kx3 is my living room radio, if you can believe it. The KX3 can be routed through my THP 2.5 for a 300 watt signal provided I have selected and tuned for the correct band while in the living room. The wife, pretends to be somewhat oblivious She's a keeper, esp. after nearly 40 years. My K2 serves two purposes: It's my QRP field radio, and I use it in occasional CW contests, sometimes in QRP entry class, sometimes in LP. The coefficient of usability of the K2 is exceeded only by my K3, but sometimes it's a slam dunk for the K2 if I want to work a CW Sprint out on the deck [if you really think it's wireless, peek behind my K-line]. Sometimes, I just turn to it because I like to use it ... a lot. I've given up getting a mic for it. Shortly before I retired [2000], Andrea took up Needlepoint, and became as addicted to it as I am to ham radio. She proposed Equal Hobby Allowances, I agreed, not knowing much about the economics of Needlepoint. The kids are long gone, one of several grandsons comes up and drives the tractor to mow the place [and we leave some cash in his car, he'd come anyway but he's the one who does], the house and vehicles are paid off, and there's money left in the checking account at the end of each month. Economics of Needlepoint: Most of my stuff is somewhat more expensive than hers. She needs waaay more of her stuff than I do of mine. It was a good deal. :-) 45 years and counting. New grandkids have ended [he says with hopeful certainty], they're making great grandkids now. Firmware for the K2 is embedded in the chip, there have been a series of small hardware mods over the years. The radio is pretty stable. I doubt seriously Elecraft will ever tell us they won't talk to us about it. A chip might not be available anymore, and my K2 may become e-trash, but I'm not thinking anytime soon. I'm at the point where its life expectancy may exceed mine. 73, Fred K6DGW - Northern California Contest Club - CU in the 2013 Cal QSO Party 5-6 Oct 2013 - www.cqp.org __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] A Rob Sherwood's talk in Dayton
Fred... With the K2 on the back deck, do you run batteries or commercial AC? If batteries, do you use the internal battery pack or run off of external batteries? If external, which one(s)? Life is never simple... Thanks. ...robert the K2 is exceeded only by my K3, but sometimes it's a slam dunk for the K2 if I want to work a CW Sprint out on the deck -- Robert G Strickland, PhD ABPH - KE2WY rc...@verizon.net.usa Syracuse, New York, USA __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] A Rob Sherwood's talk in Dayton
I run with batteries, outside my radio. I use these times as tests for when I'm going to go to the field [that could be a local park :-)] to practice for real field efforts. I will admit, sometimes on the deck, I run a coax out from the tribander. Most of the time, I do it now with the AlexLoop. I never put batteries inside my radio. 73, Fred K6DGW - Northern California Contest Club - CU in the 2013 Cal QSO Party 5-6 Oct 2013 - www.cqp.org On 6/8/2013 6:59 PM, Robert G Strickland wrote: Fred... With the K2 on the back deck, do you run batteries or commercial AC? If batteries, do you use the internal battery pack or run off of external batteries? If external, which one(s)? Life is never simple... Thanks. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] A Rob Sherwood's talk in Dayton
All 3 just depends how I feel the battery is a 7ah one. 73, Fred/N0AZZ -Original Message- From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Robert G Strickland Sent: Saturday, June 08, 2013 9:00 PM To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] A Rob Sherwood's talk in Dayton Fred... With the K2 on the back deck, do you run batteries or commercial AC? If batteries, do you use the internal battery pack or run off of external batteries? If external, which one(s)? Life is never simple... Thanks. ...robert the K2 is exceeded only by my K3, but sometimes it's a slam dunk for the K2 if I want to work a CW Sprint out on the deck -- Robert G Strickland, PhD ABPH - KE2WY rc...@verizon.net.usa Syracuse, New York, USA __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2012.0.2242 / Virus Database: 3199/5894 - Release Date: 06/08/13 __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
[Elecraft] After Rob Sherwood's Talk at Dayton
Hello to the fine folks on this reflector: I am a new Elecraft K3 owner, I received mine yesterday. I made my decision right after I heard Sherwood speak in the Drake forum at Dayton. He gave high praise to the K3, and I thought gave short thrift to the Orion 565, which I owned. After the forum was over, I approached Sherwood, asked him about his Orion remarks and the comparison to the K3. He answered me politely and directly. He was exactly right about the Orion. The encounter with Rob convinced me. I went directly to the Elecraft booth and ordered my K3 and P3 combo. I had been reading for some time about the great treatment owners receive from Elecraft. (I got the free hat) and I look forward to a long relationship with Elecraft. My Orion will be up for sale shortly, along with a few other radios to lessen the economic blow. Regards, Chris k4...@mac.com P.S. I'm keeping most of my Drake gear. (I like old toys too) Sent from my iPad __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] A Rob Sherwood's talk in Dayton
Hisashi T Fujinaka wrote Can anyone point out more about the K3 transmit audio fixes that Sherwood talked about? I thought most of the comments were about receive audio distortion. There have been several changes, both hardware (DSP upgrade) and firmware (AGC Decay) and possibly others which affect this. 73, Bill W4ZV -- View this message in context: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/A-Rob-Sherwood-s-talk-in-Dayton-tp7574814p7574830.html Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] A Rob Sherwood's talk in Dayton
On Fri, Jun 7, 2013 at 1:06 AM, Tony Estep estept...@gmail.com wrote: [..]. Meanwhile other radios I've owned or used have had irritating flaws that would have been glaringly apparent to the makers if they had actually tried them on the air before committing the design to production. Tony KT0NY Tony, that is the difference between a company managed by executives, and other one by engineers. Gus LU6AGV __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] A Rob Sherwood's talk in Dayton
If I were using external amplified speakers (which I am not right now) on my K3, would I use the rear panel SPKR stereo plug, or the headphones connector stereo plug, or the stereo line out plug? Or does it matter? Noted that the line out impedance is much different than SPKRS or PHONES. 73, phil, K7PEH On Jun 7, 2013, at 8:18 AM, Wayne Burdick n...@elecraft.com wrote: Rob helped us identify the K3's audio output distortion issue, which we subsequently cleaned up with a hardware change (five years ago) and new firmware (about three years ago). If you have an older K3, see: http://www.elecraft.com/K3/mods/K3_AF_Stage_Upgrade_Instructions_Rev_B.pdf This mod, long since incorporated into production, adds a large RF choke in series with the AF amplifier stage's DC supply. As Rob's plots show, this dramatically knocked down the IMD products; most are now down 70-80 dB. I have pretty good ears, and once we made this change, I couldn't hear any difference between the internal amplifier and external powered speakers. Rob is correct that it would be possible to further reduce low-level distortion products. However, many of these fall outside the hearing range of the average user because they're related to an image of the 12-kHz CODEC sampling rate. What's left within hearing range could be reduced with a change in the AF amp IC, though there are diminishing returns and pragmatic considerations. The stereo audio amplifier IC we use is capable of driving two 4-ohm speakers at up to a few watts apiece, and it generates no RFI because it is a classic analog device running class AB. We could get higher drive power using a beefier analog device with much higher quiescent current, or by using a class-D or higher switching-style device. The former would increase the radio's current drain substantially, while the latter would require additional shielding and decoupling. As always, our goal is to continuously improve the K3 in a way that is applicable to units in the field. If we find a practical way to achieve a further significant improvement in the audio channel, we'll certainly make it available. 73, Wayne N6KR On Jun 7, 2013, at 3:55 AM, Bill W4ZV btipp...@alum.mit.edu wrote: Hisashi T Fujinaka wrote Can anyone point out more about the K3 transmit audio fixes that Sherwood talked about? I thought most of the comments were about receive audio distortion. There have been several changes, both hardware (DSP upgrade) and firmware (AGC Decay) and possibly others which affect this. 73, Bill W4ZV __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] A Rob Sherwood's talk in Dayton
This policy is so clearly stated that I have to comment that it's a nice change to actually hear from the actual designer AND user that doesn't speak in 'engineer-ese'. To 'hear' clear, concise and accurate information without having to translate is wonderful. I actually understood it! Bravo! Rick wa6nhc -Original Message- From: Wayne Burdick Rob helped us identify the K3's audio output distortion issue, which we subsequently cleaned up with a hardware change (five years ago) and new firmware (about three years ago). If you have an older K3, see: http://www.elecraft.com/K3/mods/K3_AF_Stage_Upgrade_Instructions_Rev_B.pdf This mod, long since incorporated into production, adds a large RF choke in series with the AF amplifier stage's DC supply. As Rob's plots show, this dramatically knocked down the IMD products; most are now down 70-80 dB. I have pretty good ears, and once we made this change, I couldn't hear any difference between the internal amplifier and external powered speakers. Rob is correct that it would be possible to further reduce low-level distortion products. However, many of these fall outside the hearing range of the average user because they're related to an image of the 12-kHz CODEC sampling rate. What's left within hearing range could be reduced with a change in the AF amp IC, though there are diminishing returns and pragmatic considerations. The stereo audio amplifier IC we use is capable of driving two 4-ohm speakers at up to a few watts apiece, and it generates no RFI because it is a classic analog device running class AB. We could get higher drive power using a beefier analog device with much higher quiescent current, or by using a class-D or higher switching-style device. The former would increase the radio's current drain substantially, while the latter would require additional shielding and decoupling. As always, our goal is to continuously improve the K3 in a way that is applicable to units in the field. If we find a practical way to achieve a further significant improvement in the audio channel, we'll certainly make it available. 73, Wayne N6KR __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] A Rob Sherwood's talk in Dayton
This statement baffles me... As always, our goal is to continuously improve the K3 in a way that is applicable to units in the field. If we find a practical way to achieve a further significant improvement in the audio channel, we'll certainly make it available. Why would you not make improvements to the K3 just because they can not be applied to older units? I'm not sure what is to gain by holding back improvements. As a early K3 owner I would love to see a better K3 offered. I would have a choice to keep my early K3 or replace it with a improved unit. Radios evolve all the time. It is disappointing to know a better K3 could exist but doesn't because a new K3 may be better than the an older K3. That's just wrong. IMHO. Keith, K5ENS -- View this message in context: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/A-Rob-Sherwood-s-talk-in-Dayton-tp7574814p7574839.html Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] A Rob Sherwood's talk in Dayton
Keith, It might make it more difficult to upgrade all K3s if there were a number of different version K3s out there. I see your point but prefer to see Elecraft doing what it started and keeping the K3 an improving product for all. Once there is a K3A, B, C this may not longer be practical. As a CW operator the small amount of distortion is perhaps less noticeable than it would be if I were an ESSB operator with good hearing. Just one man's opinion ultimately it is up to the designers what happens. They have such an agreeable ethos that I am not sure it would be good to change it. 73 Doug EI2CN -Original Message- From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Keith-K5ENS Sent: 07 June 2013 17:09 To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] A Rob Sherwood's talk in Dayton This statement baffles me... As always, our goal is to continuously improve the K3 in a way that is applicable to units in the field. If we find a practical way to achieve a further significant improvement in the audio channel, we'll certainly make it available. Why would you not make improvements to the K3 just because they can not be applied to older units? I'm not sure what is to gain by holding back improvements. As a early K3 owner I would love to see a better K3 offered. I would have a choice to keep my early K3 or replace it with a improved unit. Radios evolve all the time. It is disappointing to know a better K3 could exist but doesn't because a new K3 may be better than the an older K3. That's just wrong. IMHO. Keith, K5ENS -- View this message in context: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/A-Rob-Sherwood-s-talk-in-Dayton-tp75748 14p7574839.html Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] A Rob Sherwood's talk in Dayton
Keith-K5ENS wrote This statement baffles me... As always, our goal is to continuously improve the K3 in a way that is applicable to units in the field. If we find a practical way to achieve a further significant improvement in the audio channel, we'll certainly make it available. Why would you not make improvements to the K3 just because they can not be applied to older units? I'm not sure what is to gain by holding back improvements. As a early K3 owner I would love to see a better K3 offered. I would have a choice to keep my early K3 or replace it with a improved unit. Radios evolve all the time. It is disappointing to know a better K3 could exist but doesn't because a new K3 may be better than the an older K3. That's just wrong. IMHO. Keith, K5ENS Keith I don't think anything is being held back. Everything (HW and SW) in the K3 can be modified as has been demonstrated numerous times (e.g. most notably replacing the entire DSP board). I believe Wayne is just saying that upgradability of existing units is a key consideration in their thinking (as opposed to Japan's Big 3). I only wish more manufacturers thought the same way. 73, Bill W4ZV -- View this message in context: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/A-Rob-Sherwood-s-talk-in-Dayton-tp7574814p7574842.html Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] A Rob Sherwood's talk in Dayton
I for one would prefer that Elecraft continue their plan to provide support to all K3s in the field from the earliest serial number to the latest with the same upgrades and options. As far as doing something different for an even better K3, that would not be a K3, maybe it would be called a K4 or whatever. However, as long as the K3 can be that better product, even for those early adopters with much older K3s, this practice would hopefully continue. As far as audio goes -- I have no complaints and that may be due to the fact that I don't put up an oscilloscope or spectrum analyzer on my audio output as a means of using the K3. My ears work good enough. 73, phil, K7PEH On Jun 7, 2013, at 9:09 AM, Keith-K5ENS ke...@kathyandkeith.mx wrote: This statement baffles me... As always, our goal is to continuously improve the K3 in a way that is applicable to units in the field. If we find a practical way to achieve a further significant improvement in the audio channel, we'll certainly make it available. Why would you not make improvements to the K3 just because they can not be applied to older units? I'm not sure what is to gain by holding back improvements. As a early K3 owner I would love to see a better K3 offered. I would have a choice to keep my early K3 or replace it with a improved unit. Radios evolve all the time. It is disappointing to know a better K3 could exist but doesn't because a new K3 may be better than the an older K3. That's just wrong. IMHO. Keith, K5ENS -- View this message in context: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/A-Rob-Sherwood-s-talk-in-Dayton-tp7574814p7574839.html Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] A Rob Sherwood's talk in Dayton
The most understood presentation I have ever heard on a complex mater, that was easy for even me to understand. 73, Fred/N0AZZ K3 Ser #'s 6730/5299--KX3 # 2573--K2/100--KAT100 P3/SVGA--KPA500--KAT500--W2 -Original Message- From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Rick Bates Sent: Friday, June 07, 2013 11:01 AM To: 'Wayne Burdick'; elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] A Rob Sherwood's talk in Dayton This policy is so clearly stated that I have to comment that it's a nice change to actually hear from the actual designer AND user that doesn't speak in 'engineer-ese'. To 'hear' clear, concise and accurate information without having to translate is wonderful. I actually understood it! Bravo! Rick wa6nhc -Original Message- From: Wayne Burdick Rob helped us identify the K3's audio output distortion issue, which we subsequently cleaned up with a hardware change (five years ago) and new firmware (about three years ago). If you have an older K3, see: http://www.elecraft.com/K3/mods/K3_AF_Stage_Upgrade_Instructions_Rev_B.pdf This mod, long since incorporated into production, adds a large RF choke in series with the AF amplifier stage's DC supply. As Rob's plots show, this dramatically knocked down the IMD products; most are now down 70-80 dB. I have pretty good ears, and once we made this change, I couldn't hear any difference between the internal amplifier and external powered speakers. Rob is correct that it would be possible to further reduce low-level distortion products. However, many of these fall outside the hearing range of the average user because they're related to an image of the 12-kHz CODEC sampling rate. What's left within hearing range could be reduced with a change in the AF amp IC, though there are diminishing returns and pragmatic considerations. The stereo audio amplifier IC we use is capable of driving two 4-ohm speakers at up to a few watts apiece, and it generates no RFI because it is a classic analog device running class AB. We could get higher drive power using a beefier analog device with much higher quiescent current, or by using a class-D or higher switching-style device. The former would increase the radio's current drain substantially, while the latter would require additional shielding and decoupling. As always, our goal is to continuously improve the K3 in a way that is applicable to units in the field. If we find a practical way to achieve a further significant improvement in the audio channel, we'll certainly make it available. 73, Wayne N6KR __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2904 / Virus Database: 3199/6391 - Release Date: 06/07/13 - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2904 / Virus Database: 3199/6391 - Release Date: 06/07/13 __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] A Rob Sherwood's talk in Dayton
Keith, I, too, think I see your point. That point is that one strategy a company could take is to continuously introduce newer, better products, ones which might cannibalize sales of previous products with each new product introduction. I worked at HP, and I think that was the strategy for the printer division. I think this is a good strategy for a consumer market place. This worked well when sales were reasonably high volume. Arguably, the best aspect about the Elecraft statement which you quote is that it exists and guides the company investments. That statement appeals to me.I like knowing that my radio will continue to be supported by my vendor and that its re-sale value, when I kick the bucket, will be higher than otherwise. So, to Elecraft, one benefit is that the strategy appeals to what-I-think is one of their target market segments - customers who want to be loyal customers. I see a cost reduction benefit to Elecraft as well. Elecraft is less likely to need to be supporting multiple products. They can keep inventory down, and won't have the costs of dealing with end of support life issues. And design costs might be lower, as the company is not introducing as many new designs and the new designs that are introduced are primarily for completely new-to-Elecraft functionality. Cost reduction is a big deal for any company. So Elecraft's strategy totally works for me. 73, Hoop K9QJS On Jun 7, 2013, at 9:09 AM, Keith-K5ENS ke...@kathyandkeith.mx wrote: This statement baffles me... As always, our goal is to continuously improve the K3 in a way that is applicable to units in the field. If we find a practical way to achieve a further significant improvement in the audio channel, we'll certainly make it available. Why would you not make improvements to the K3 just because they can not be applied to older units? I'm not sure what is to gain by holding back improvements. As a early K3 owner I would love to see a better K3 offered. I would have a choice to keep my early K3 or replace it with a improved unit. Radios evolve all the time. It is disappointing to know a better K3 could exist but doesn't because a new K3 may be better than the an older K3. That's just wrong. IMHO. Keith, K5ENS __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] A Rob Sherwood's talk in Dayton
Keith (K5ENS) wrote: I'm not sure what is to gain by holding back improvements. As a early K3 owner I would love to see a better K3 offered. I would have a choice to keep my early K3 or replace it with a improved unit. Radios evolve all the time. Hi Keith, It's highly desirable that changes be retrofittable since we have some 7,500 K3s in the field. But there are different levels of mod. The mod we made to the RF choke (to reduce receive AF IMD) was simple, involving a component change. Let's call that level 1. Nearly all of the K3's mods over the years have been of this type. We could completely redesign the AF stage if it were warranted, requiring replacement of the DSP board. Some customers might be willing to pay for such an upgrade, and we wouldn't . That would be level 2. Now suppose we came up with something truly revolutionary, like a switch from an LCD to and OLED display. That would require replacement of the entire front panel module, and we might change the model number of the radio--a level 3 change. (We are *not* going to do that, by the way :) Any of the above changes are retrofittable, and I can assure you that we're not holding anything back. The K3 was designed in a modular fashion so it can adapt to new requirements. 73, Wayne N6KR __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] A Rob Sherwood's talk in Dayton
Yup, Yup and Yup that's the reason I have Elecraft gear. Not buying new radio gear every 2 years like I did with my Yaesu and Icom gear. I for one agree with the business model and great equipment. -Original Message- From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Wayne Burdick Sent: Friday, June 07, 2013 11:58 AM To: Keith-K5ENS Cc: Elecraft Reflector Subject: Re: [Elecraft] A Rob Sherwood's talk in Dayton Keith (K5ENS) wrote: I'm not sure what is to gain by holding back improvements. As a early K3 owner I would love to see a better K3 offered. I would have a choice to keep my early K3 or replace it with a improved unit. Radios evolve all the time. Hi Keith, It's highly desirable that changes be retrofittable since we have some 7,500 K3s in the field. But there are different levels of mod. The mod we made to the RF choke (to reduce receive AF IMD) was simple, involving a component change. Let's call that level 1. Nearly all of the K3's mods over the years have been of this type. We could completely redesign the AF stage if it were warranted, requiring replacement of the DSP board. Some customers might be willing to pay for such an upgrade, and we wouldn't . That would be level 2. Now suppose we came up with something truly revolutionary, like a switch from an LCD to and OLED display. That would require replacement of the entire front panel module, and we might change the model number of the radio--a level 3 change. (We are *not* going to do that, by the way :) Any of the above changes are retrofittable, and I can assure you that we're not holding anything back. The K3 was designed in a modular fashion so it can adapt to new requirements. 73, Wayne N6KR __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2904 / Virus Database: 3199/6391 - Release Date: 06/07/13 - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2904 / Virus Database: 3199/6391 - Release Date: 06/07/13 __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] A Rob Sherwood's talk in Dayton
I'd look favorably on potential receive audio improvements. I'm not sure I fully understand the 'we wouldn't' below. Is that, 'We wouldn't introduce such an improvement (level 2),' or 'We wouldn't bear the cost of such improvement,' (it would be the responsibility of the end user)? 73, Dick - KA5KKT --- Hi Keith.We could completely redesign the AF stage if it were warranted, requiring replacement of the DSP board. Some customers might be willing to pay for such an upgrade, and we wouldn't . That would be level 2. 73, Wayne N6KR __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] A Rob Sherwood's talk in Dayton
I see your point but... I can see a host of problems with implementing a policy of continuously improving a radio without the ability to modify the older versions. With each new improvement that is not possible on the older versions you increasing marginalize the early adopters. Now they own a K3 that is not as good as the later K3's and can never be as good as that later model. Early adopters are VERY important to a company because they provide the cash flow and feedback needed to successfully market and manufacture a product. In addition you will have various versions of the K3. Imagine the confusion for Elecraft and hams alike. The early K3's will be worth much less than the later ones as one knows it would be impossible to improve it any further. So who would buy an early product? Not me!! I'd wait, and wait, and wait... The constant improvement of a product without the ability to improve the earlier versions may work for some products, but it definitely would not work (IMHO only;-), it's not my company) for Elecraft radios. Want a better radio? Then wait for a K4, 5, 6... I own a K2 No. 2005. A great radio and I am happy with the fact that No. 0001 and will always have the capability to be equal or very nearly equal in specs, quality, and ergonomics. Rick K4LX From: Keith-K5ENS ke...@kathyandkeith.mx To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Sent: Friday, June 7, 2013 12:09 PM Subject: Re: [Elecraft] A Rob Sherwood's talk in Dayton This statement baffles me... As always, our goal is to continuously improve the K3 in a way that is applicable to units in the field. If we find a practical way to achieve a further significant improvement in the audio channel, we'll certainly make it available. Why would you not make improvements to the K3 just because they can not be applied to older units? I'm not sure what is to gain by holding back improvements. As a early K3 owner I would love to see a better K3 offered. I would have a choice to keep my early K3 or replace it with a improved unit. Radios evolve all the time. It is disappointing to know a better K3 could exist but doesn't because a new K3 may be better than the an older K3. That's just wrong. IMHO. Keith, K5ENS -- View this message in context: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/A-Rob-Sherwood-s-talk-in-Dayton-tp7574814p7574839.html Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] A Rob Sherwood's talk in Dayton
My only point is that from reading Wayne's statement, Elecraft is not going to make improvements to the K3 that can not be fitted to the units in the field. And I'm not sure there is any improvement that couldn't be fitted due to the design of the K3. If I remember when I built my K3 are the parts just plugged in. That makes me think the K3 today is not the best K3 that could be produced. It's just not going to be made available because it would make today's K3 less valuable. Where does that put plans for any future model? I would think making changes to the K3 would be easier on K3 owners than a completely new model. It could be a lot less tooling. As I have stated before the K3 as it is today is getting old. But hey Kenwood is still selling the TS-2000. Not that I would want one. I am a K3 owner SN 2654 with no plans to replace it with another brand. I'm just pushing for the next best great product from Elecraft. I know it's there. Keith, K5ENS -- View this message in context: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/A-Rob-Sherwood-s-talk-in-Dayton-tp7574814p7574856.html Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] A Rob Sherwood's talk in Dayton
I'd like to weigh in at this point with a thought and a question. Suppose a K4 were to be introduced. If it was a standard (typical) radio, I can't imagine what improvements it would have other than some specs we could not hear as was eluded to in this discussion. So the questions is; Unless it was very different, would we want to buy it? Dick, n0ce - Original Message - From: Phil Hystad To: Keith-K5ENS Cc: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Sent: Friday, June 07, 2013 11:31 AM Subject: Re: [Elecraft] A Rob Sherwood's talk in Dayton I for one would prefer that Elecraft continue their plan to provide support to all K3s in the field from the earliest serial number to the latest with the same upgrades and options. As far as doing something different for an even better K3, that would not be a K3, maybe it would be called a K4 or whatever. However, as long as the K3 can be that better product, even for those early adopters with much older K3s, this practice would hopefully continue. As far as audio goes -- I have no complaints and that may be due to the fact that I don't put up an oscilloscope or spectrum analyzer on my audio output as a means of using the K3. My ears work good enough. 73, phil, K7PEH On Jun 7, 2013, at 9:09 AM, Keith-K5ENS ke...@kathyandkeith.mx wrote: This statement baffles me... As always, our goal is to continuously improve the K3 in a way that is applicable to units in the field. If we find a practical way to achieve a further significant improvement in the audio channel, we'll certainly make it available. Why would you not make improvements to the K3 just because they can not be applied to older units? I'm not sure what is to gain by holding back improvements. As a early K3 owner I would love to see a better K3 offered. I would have a choice to keep my early K3 or replace it with a improved unit. Radios evolve all the time. It is disappointing to know a better K3 could exist but doesn't because a new K3 may be better than the an older K3. That's just wrong. IMHO. Keith, K5ENS -- View this message in context: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/A-Rob-Sherwood-s-talk-in-Dayton-tp7574814p7574839.html Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] A Rob Sherwood's talk in Dayton
I misheard the audio and thought it was in the TX chain. I wondered why he wasn't more upset about it. This all makes much more sense. On Fri, 7 Jun 2013, Wayne Burdick wrote: Rob helped us identify the K3's audio output distortion issue, which we subsequently cleaned up with a hardware change (five years ago) and new firmware (about three years ago). If you have an older K3, see: http://www.elecraft.com/K3/mods/K3_AF_Stage_Upgrade_Instructions_Rev_B.pdf This mod, long since incorporated into production, adds a large RF choke in series with the AF amplifier stage's DC supply. As Rob's plots show, this dramatically knocked down the IMD products; most are now down 70-80 dB. I have pretty good ears, and once we made this change, I couldn't hear any difference between the internal amplifier and external powered speakers. Rob is correct that it would be possible to further reduce low-level distortion products. However, many of these fall outside the hearing range of the average user because they're related to an image of the 12-kHz CODEC sampling rate. What's left within hearing range could be reduced with a change in the AF amp IC, though there are diminishing returns and pragmatic considerations. The stereo audio amplifier IC we use is capable of driving two 4-ohm speakers at up to a few watts apiece, and it generates no RFI because it is a classic analog device running class AB. We could get higher drive power using a beefier analog device with much higher quiescent current, or by using a class-D or higher switching-style device. The former would increase the radio's current drain substantially, while the latter would require additional shielding and decoupling. As always, our goal is to continuously improve the K3 in a way that is applicable to units in the field. If we find a practical way to achieve a further significant improvement in the audio channel, we'll certainly make it available. 73, Wayne N6KR On Jun 7, 2013, at 3:55 AM, Bill W4ZV btipp...@alum.mit.edu wrote: Hisashi T Fujinaka wrote Can anyone point out more about the K3 transmit audio fixes that Sherwood talked about? I thought most of the comments were about receive audio distortion. There have been several changes, both hardware (DSP upgrade) and firmware (AGC Decay) and possibly others which affect this. 73, Bill W4ZV __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html -- Hisashi T Fujinaka - ht...@twofifty.com BSEE(6/86) + BSChem(3/95) + BAEnglish(8/95) + MSCS(8/03) + $2.50 = latte __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] A Rob Sherwood's talk in Dayton
Keith: Please read Wayne's reply again. Note that he says that this is an issue with the internal audio amplifier driving UNPOWERED speakers. Two things: 1) with the internal speaker, you cannot hear the issue at all 2) with POWERED EXTERNAL SPEAKERS connected to line out, you bypass the internal audio amplifier and cannot hear the issue at all. So the solution is; if it bothers you, do not hook up external speakers,to the internal audio amp, use headsets or external powered speakers (as I do) on the line out connector. Also consider that if what you propose was put into practice, the value of your early rig would suffer. You may be independently wealthy, and may not care... But with two kids in college a car payment and a mortgage, I certainly do care. Thank you Wayne, for insuring that my investment holds its value. Lu Romero - W4LT K3/P3/KPA500/K1 - Message: 3 Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2013 09:09:22 -0700 (PDT) From: Keith-K5ENS ke...@kathyandkeith.mx To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] A Rob Sherwood's talk in Dayton Message-ID: 1370621362857-7574839.p...@n2.nabble.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii This statement baffles me... As always, our goal is to continuously improve the K3 in a way that is applicable to units in the field. If we find a practical way to achieve a further significant improvement in the audio channel, we'll certainly make it available. Why would you not make improvements to the K3 just because they can not be applied to older units? I'm not sure what is to gain by holding back improvements. As a early K3 owner I would love to see a better K3 offered. I would have a choice to keep my early K3 or replace it with a improved unit. Radios evolve all the time. It is disappointing to know a better K3 could exist but doesn't because a new K3 may be better than the an older K3. That's just wrong. IMHO. Keith, K5ENS Sent from my iPad __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] A Rob Sherwood's talk in Dayton
I do not read Wayne's response that way at all. The issue has been fixed except perhaps for all but the most discerning ears (audiophiles). Wayne has 'musician ears', and would not make statements like that if not good to his ears. As far as the K3 audio being better on powered external speakers than with un-powered speakers, think about that for a minute. Good powered speakers should faithfully replicate the input signal, and that includes any distortion products that may be present in the input signal. Good unpowered speakers should produce an even cleaner output because the input signal is not further distorted by the characteristics of the powered speakers. Unfortunately, good unpowered speakers are not the metal cased 8 inch speakers that were available with old National or Hallicrafters receivers, they have a lot of bass response and color the signal a LOT. They may sound good to many ears, but are not a faithful representation of the input signal. Try some high efficiency good quality bookshelf speakers for a fair comparison. If one wants a Hi-Fi output, then it is time to shop the audiophile stores for speakers rather than the consumer grade computer (and iPod) speakers that are commonly used. 73, Don W3FPR On 6/7/2013 8:54 PM, Lu Romero wrote: Keith: Please read Wayne's reply again. Note that he says that this is an issue with the internal audio amplifier driving UNPOWERED speakers. Two things: 1) with the internal speaker, you cannot hear the issue at all 2) with POWERED EXTERNAL SPEAKERS connected to line out, you bypass the internal audio amplifier and cannot hear the issue at all. So the solution is; if it bothers you, do not hook up external speakers,to the internal audio amp, use headsets or external powered speakers (as I do) on the line out connector. Also consider that if what you propose was put into practice, the value of your early rig would suffer. You may be independently wealthy, and may not care... But with two kids in college a car payment and a mortgage, I certainly do care. Thank you Wayne, for insuring that my investment holds its value. .net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
[Elecraft] A Rob Sherwood's talk in Dayton
A comparison of several rigs, KX3 included http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SOf2OOGeGi8 73 Gus LU6AGV __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] A Rob Sherwood's talk in Dayton
Very interesting, Gus. One of the most salient impressions that comes out is how little on-air testing seems to be done by most manufacturers. I guess that most rigs are made for phone ragchewers, and are probably fine for that purpose; but many of the faults that Rob Sherwood points out become obvious with a few hours of actual pileup or contest operation. How could a manufacturer imagine that a DXer would prefer to work a split pileup with a mouse-tuned radio, or send CW with a radio whose internal keyer spits out dits and dahs of random length? And the phase-noise dynamics that Rob describes -- they may not show up on a certain test, but they're clear enough when you use the radio, as are a variety of AGC problems. The Elecraft tradition started with rigs that would meet the requirements of a multi-op Field Day, and they have stuck with that viewpoint, to the benefit of their users. Meanwhile other radios I've owned or used have had irritating flaws that would have been glaringly apparent to the makers if they had actually tried them on the air before committing the design to production. Tony KT0NY On Thu, Jun 6, 2013 at 6:09 PM, Gustavo Villada vill...@gmail.com wrote: A comparison of several rigs, KX3 included http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SOf2OOGeGi8 73 Gus LU6AGV __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html -- http://www.isb.edu/faculty/facultydir.aspx?ddlFaculty=352 __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] A Rob Sherwood's talk in Dayton
Can anyone point out more about the K3 transmit audio fixes that Sherwood talked about? On Thu, 6 Jun 2013, Gustavo Villada wrote: A comparison of several rigs, KX3 included http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SOf2OOGeGi8 73 Gus LU6AGV __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html -- Hisashi T Fujinaka - ht...@twofifty.com BSEE(6/86) + BSChem(3/95) + BAEnglish(8/95) + MSCS(8/03) + $2.50 = latte __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
