Re: [Elecraft] DIY Hard-drawn copper wire

[Ken]

On 2/11/16 3:13 PM, Bill Frantz wrote:
(4) If you are breaking things, such as #8 copper wire, cover them 
with blankets to minimize the danger of having them snap through the air.
(5) Keep everyone far enough away so flying wire won't hit them, or 
keep them in a closed vehicle.



Those are what I was thinking.   Be sure to be safely inside the car and 
be willing to damage the car.


p.s. I think it's cheaper and better to just purchase harddrawn copper 
or copperweld wire.  YMMV


Ken WA8JXM
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Re: [Elecraft] DIY Hard-drawn copper wire

[GRANT YOUNGMAN]

> 
> p.s. I think it's cheaper and better to just purchase harddrawn copper or 
> copperweld wire.  YMMV
> 


It’s hard to disagree with this.  I can just see myself with a 100’ of wire 
tied to my mailbox on one end, pulling the other end down the street on the 
bumper of my car — wait .. there is no bumper on my car.

I don’t buy Dacron thread and weave my own line, either :-)

Grant NQ5T
K3 #2091, KX3 #8342
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Re: [Elecraft] DIY Hard-drawn copper wire

[Ron D'Eau Claire]

Copper is ductile, not elastic. So pulling it will cause it to stretch but
when it breaks it does not return to its original length releasing a lot of
energy. It will simply separate at the point of failure, as others noted. 

Even so, I am careful any time I'm applying a lot of pressure to anything.
Murphy reigns supreme over mere mortal Hams.

73, Ron AC7AC 

-Original Message-

On 2/11/16 3:13 PM, Bill Frantz wrote:
> (4) If you are breaking things, such as #8 copper wire, cover them 
> with blankets to minimize the danger of having them snap through the air.
> (5) Keep everyone far enough away so flying wire won't hit them, or 
> keep them in a closed vehicle.


Those are what I was thinking.   Be sure to be safely inside the car and 
be willing to damage the car.

p.s. I think it's cheaper and better to just purchase harddrawn copper or
copperweld wire.  YMMV

Ken WA8JXM
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Re: [Elecraft] DIY Hard-drawn copper wire

[Rick Bates (WA6NHC)]

All true Ron, but remember that copper is only the main element in the alloy at 
hand. 

The one time you take something in safety for granted is the one time it turns 
on you.  It waits...

73,
Rick nhc

Sent from my iPad

> On Feb 13, 2016, at 9:47 AM, Ron D'Eau Claire  wrote:
> 
> Copper is ductile, not elastic. So pulling it will cause it to stretch but
> when it breaks it does not return to its original length releasing a lot of
> energy. It will simply separate at the point of failure, as others noted. 
> 
> Even so, I am careful any time I'm applying a lot of pressure to anything.
> Murphy reigns supreme over mere mortal Hams.
> 
> 73, Ron AC7AC 
> 
> -Original Message-
> 
>> On 2/11/16 3:13 PM, Bill Frantz wrote:
>> (4) If you are breaking things, such as #8 copper wire, cover them 
>> with blankets to minimize the danger of having them snap through the air.
>> (5) Keep everyone far enough away so flying wire won't hit them, or 
>> keep them in a closed vehicle.
> 
> 
> Those are what I was thinking.   Be sure to be safely inside the car and 
> be willing to damage the car.
> 
> p.s. I think it's cheaper and better to just purchase harddrawn copper or
> copperweld wire.  YMMV
> 
> Ken WA8JXM
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Re: [Elecraft] DIY Hard-drawn copper wire

[Jim Brown]

On Sat,2/13/2016 8:30 AM, Ken wrote:
p.s. I think it's cheaper and better to just purchase harddrawn copper 
or copperweld wire.  YMMV


It's certainly good to see that you guys who have never done it know so 
much about how it's done.


And copperweld is a VERY BAD idea.

73, Jim K9YC
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[Elecraft] DIY Hard-drawn copper wire

[Dauer, Edward]

In a recent post Jim, K9YC, suggested making hard-drawn copper wire for 
antennas by attaching a few hundred feet of bare copper wire to a tree or 
telephone pole at one end and to a bumper hitch at the other, then driving away 
very slowly until it snaps.  That sounded like a very attractive idea - much in 
the ham tradition.  I wondered, though, whether it could be done using a car 
without a bumper hitch.  The minimum breaking strength of number 8 hard-drawn 
copper wire (though it might be closer to number 10 after being stretched) is 
between 644 and 826 pounds, according to a chart I found on the Internet.  
Rather than test it empirically with my 16-year-old SUV (no bumper hitch), I 
wondered what 700 or 800 pounds of shear force would do to an automobile frame, 
assuming attachment to a suitable bolt somewhere.  Or would the tree fall over 
first?

Ted, KN1CBR
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Re: [Elecraft] DIY Hard-drawn copper wire

[Dave Cole]

But the real question is:  

If the tree falls over, and no one hears it, did it really fall over,
and did the wire snap?

Sorry, I could not resist...
-- 
73's, and thanks,
Dave

For software/hardware reviews see:
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On Thu, 2016-02-11 at 14:34 +, Dauer, Edward wrote:
> In a recent post Jim, K9YC, suggested making hard-drawn copper wire
> for antennas by attaching a few hundred feet of bare copper wire to a
> tree or telephone pole at one end and to a bumper hitch at the other,
> then driving away very slowly until it snaps.  That sounded like a
> very attractive idea - much in the ham tradition.  I wondered,
> though, whether it could be done using a car without a bumper
> hitch.  The minimum breaking strength of number 8 hard-drawn copper
> wire (though it might be closer to number 10 after being stretched)
> is between 644 and 826 pounds, according to a chart I found on the
> Internet.  Rather than test it empirically with my 16-year-old SUV
> (no bumper hitch), I wondered what 700 or 800 pounds of shear force
> would do to an automobile frame, assuming attachment to a suitable
> bolt somewhere.  Or would the tree fall over first?
> 
> Ted, KN1CBR
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Re: [Elecraft] DIY Hard-drawn copper wire

[Henry Pollock - K4TMC]

Also...just in case...make sure the wire is longer than the height of the
tree...

73,
Henry - K4TMC


On Thu, Feb 11, 2016 at 9:57 AM, Dave Cole  wrote:

> But the real question is:
>
> If the tree falls over, and no one hears it, did it really fall over,
> and did the wire snap?
>
> Sorry, I could not resist...
> --
> 73's, and thanks,
> Dave
>
> For software/hardware reviews see:
> http://www.nk7z.net
>
> For MixW support see:
> https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/mixw/info
>
> For SSTV help see:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/MM-SSTV/info
>
>
>
> On Thu, 2016-02-11 at 14:34 +, Dauer, Edward wrote:
> > In a recent post Jim, K9YC, suggested making hard-drawn copper wire
> > for antennas by attaching a few hundred feet of bare copper wire to a
> > tree or telephone pole at one end and to a bumper hitch at the other,
> > then driving away very slowly until it snaps.  That sounded like a
> > very attractive idea - much in the ham tradition.  I wondered,
> > though, whether it could be done using a car without a bumper
> > hitch.  The minimum breaking strength of number 8 hard-drawn copper
> > wire (though it might be closer to number 10 after being stretched)
> > is between 644 and 826 pounds, according to a chart I found on the
> > Internet.  Rather than test it empirically with my 16-year-old SUV
> > (no bumper hitch), I wondered what 700 or 800 pounds of shear force
> > would do to an automobile frame, assuming attachment to a suitable
> > bolt somewhere.  Or would the tree fall over first?
> >
> > Ted, KN1CBR
> > __
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Re: [Elecraft] DIY Hard-drawn copper wire

[Vic Rosenthal 4X6GP/K2VCO]

I have actually done this -- but I didn't drive until it broke. I just 
gave it a little stretch. And it wasn't no. 8 wire!

Worked a treat, as our UK cousins say.

73,
Vic, 4X6GP/K2VCO
Rehovot, Israel
http://www.qsl.net/k2vco/

On 11 Feb 2016 16:34, Dauer, Edward wrote:

In a recent post Jim, K9YC, suggested making hard-drawn copper wire
for antennas by attaching a few hundred feet of bare copper wire to a
tree or telephone pole at one end and to a bumper hitch at the other,
then driving away very slowly until it snaps.  That sounded like a
very attractive idea - much in the ham tradition.  I wondered,
though, whether it could be done using a car without a bumper hitch.
The minimum breaking strength of number 8 hard-drawn copper wire
(though it might be closer to number 10 after being stretched) is
between 644 and 826 pounds, according to a chart I found on the
Internet.  Rather than test it empirically with my 16-year-old SUV
(no bumper hitch), I wondered what 700 or 800 pounds of shear force
would do to an automobile frame, assuming attachment to a suitable
bolt somewhere.  Or would the tree fall over first?

Ted, KN1CBR

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Re: [Elecraft] DIY Hard-drawn copper wire

[Bill Frantz]

Trees are quite strong. When we do demonstrations by breaking 
equipment during cave rescue classes, we use trees as anchors 
and a truck with an electric winch attached to one tree. Some of 
these things break at several thousand pounds force. (We measure 
the force with a load cell.)


The basics for tree anchors:

(1) Make sure the tree is alive and healthy.
(2) Wrap the tree with a tarp or heavy cloth to protect its bark 
from damage.
(3) Then wrap it with 2" nylon webbing at least 3 times. Use a 
water knot to join the webbing. Leave the knot facing the load 
and pull the rest of the loops out to a carabiner or quick link 
rated for the expected load. This arrangement gives you a chance 
of being able to untie the know when you are finished. (2" 
tubular webbing is rated at 4000#. If you pull two loops, that 
is 4 strands and 16000#. Derate by 50% for knots, bends around 
carabiners etc and get 8000#.)
(4) If you are breaking things, such as #8 copper wire, cover 
them with blankets to minimize the danger of having them snap 
through the air.
(5) Keep everyone far enough away so flying wire won't hit them, 
or keep them in a closed vehicle.


73 Bill AE6JV

On 2/11/16 at 6:34 AM, eda...@law.du.edu (Dauer, Edward) wrote:

I wondered what 700 or 800 pounds of shear force would do to an 
automobile frame, assuming attachment to a suitable bolt 
somewhere.  Or would the tree fall over first?

---
Bill Frantz| Security is like Government  | Periwinkle
(408)356-8506  | services. The market doesn't | 16345 
Englewood Ave
www.pwpconsult.com | want to pay for them.| Los Gatos, 
CA 95032


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Re: [Elecraft] DIY Hard-drawn copper wire

[Rick WA6NHC]

Even the smallest trees have substantial strength, species dependent of 
course (some have no tap root and only surface structure).  Bind LOW on 
the tree to make the pull closest to the anchor of the tree (the roots).


Vehicle frames are much stronger than a piece of typical (for antennas) 
copper wire, no worries.  Even the smallest car can handle the strain of 
a SMALL trailer (or passengers of large girth), BUT one should move 
slowly to not shock load the wire or vehicle AND (in addition to the 
excellent advice given) the safe zone is any place further away than the 
total length of the wire plus at least 20% (factor in stretching) since 
it may whip upon snapping.  While it's slightly possible that it could 
snap in multiple places and become airborne, distance is your friend.  
When in doubt, use another tree as a shield PLUS distance and safety 
equipment (hard hat, goggles etc.).


Rick nhc

On 2/11/2016 12:13 PM, Bill Frantz wrote:
Trees are quite strong. When we do demonstrations by breaking 
equipment during cave rescue classes, we use trees as anchors and a 
truck with an electric winch attached to one tree. Some of these 
things break at several thousand pounds force. (We measure the force 
with a load cell.)


The basics for tree anchors:

(1) Make sure the tree is alive and healthy.
(2) Wrap the tree with a tarp or heavy cloth to protect its bark from 
damage.
(3) Then wrap it with 2" nylon webbing at least 3 times. Use a water 
knot to join the webbing. Leave the knot facing the load and pull the 
rest of the loops out to a carabiner or quick link rated for the 
expected load. This arrangement gives you a chance of being able to 
untie the know when you are finished. (2" tubular webbing is rated at 
4000#. If you pull two loops, that is 4 strands and 16000#. Derate by 
50% for knots, bends around carabiners etc and get 8000#.)
(4) If you are breaking things, such as #8 copper wire, cover them 
with blankets to minimize the danger of having them snap through the air.
(5) Keep everyone far enough away so flying wire won't hit them, or 
keep them in a closed vehicle.


73 Bill AE6JV

On 2/11/16 at 6:34 AM, eda...@law.du.edu (Dauer, Edward) wrote:

I wondered what 700 or 800 pounds of shear force would do to an 
automobile frame, assuming attachment to a suitable bolt somewhere.  
Or would the tree fall over first?

---
Bill Frantz| Security is like Government  | Periwinkle
(408)356-8506  | services. The market doesn't | 16345 Englewood Ave
www.pwpconsult.com | want to pay for them.| Los Gatos, CA 95032

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Re: [Elecraft] DIY Hard-drawn copper wire

[Jim Brown]

On Thu,2/11/2016 12:42 PM, Rick WA6NHC wrote:
BUT one should move slowly to not shock load the wire or vehicle AND 
(in addition to the excellent advice given) the safe zone is any place 
further away than the total length of the wire plus at least 20% 


When we've done this, my partner has driven the vehicle and I've been 
the observer, carefully out of range. I've never been more than about 
100 ft from the wire, and we typically start with about 200 ft. In the 
half dozen or so times I've done that, the wire has simply broken 
gracefully either near the tree trunk or near the vehicle. What nearly 
always happens is that the wire breaks at a point of maximum stretch 
along the length. That doesn't mean that it CAN'T snap around, but so 
far it has not.


73, Jim K9YC
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Re: [Elecraft] DIY Hard-drawn copper wire

[Rick WA6NHC]

I try to not give Murphy any chance, ever, at all.  Sometimes that 
actually works out.  ;-)  The tension that is suddenly released, has to 
dissipate SOMEwhere, the trick is to not be in the way when that 
happens.  Copper, because it is soft, uses less energy to stretch, but 
...  hanging cloths on the wire is good because it's a visual indicator 
that the wire is still intact (the cloths are not on the ground) as well 
as acting as a shock absorber should the wire fail.


Rick nhc

On 2/11/2016 12:56 PM, Jim Brown wrote:

On Thu,2/11/2016 12:42 PM, Rick WA6NHC wrote:
BUT one should move slowly to not shock load the wire or vehicle AND 
(in addition to the excellent advice given) the safe zone is any 
place further away than the total length of the wire plus at least 20% 


When we've done this, my partner has driven the vehicle and I've been 
the observer, carefully out of range. I've never been more than about 
100 ft from the wire, and we typically start with about 200 ft. In the 
half dozen or so times I've done that, the wire has simply broken 
gracefully either near the tree trunk or near the vehicle. What nearly 
always happens is that the wire breaks at a point of maximum stretch 
along the length. That doesn't mean that it CAN'T snap around, but so 
far it has not.


73, Jim K9YC
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Re: [Elecraft] DIY Hard-drawn copper wire

[kev...@coho.net]

From what I can find on the 'net, in my dad's metallurgy manuals, and a 
scan of my CRC the ductility of pure copper is 0.62.  A piece of copper 
wire which is thoroughly annealed will allow stretching of 62% before it 
fails at the ductile-brittle transition.  This transition point is 
temperature dependent so a warmer day is better.  Once you have 
stretched the copper you can stretch it again as long as you anneal it 
first.  I did not look up the annealing temperature of copper.


Thus, for safety's sake, stretch the line to a 50% increase or less to 
avoid having it part on you.  Copper alloys allow for less ductility so 
decrease the amount of stretching to avoid an accidental parting.

GL,
 Kevin.  KD5ONS
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