[Elecraft] FW: [K3] K3 Off Grid
Gosh Engineers...why not just suggest to Paul that he use the most simple method of finding out the voltage and current the K3 draws by pressing the K3's METER button 73, Tom - W4BQF -Original Message- From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Lynn W. Taylor, WB6UUT Sent: Wednesday, March 5, 2014 5:23 PM To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [K3] K3 Off Grid Here is how I'd do it, your mileage may vary. I'd measure the power draw at 100 watts key-down, and the power draw for receive. I'd assume 50% duty cycle. You can skip a lot of math by either ignoring the receive power draw (if it's low enough) and dividing by two, or adding them together and dividing by two (averaging them together). Multiply that number by the number of hours you need to be able to operate -- and that's your target capacity in amp-hours. That should over estimate the battery, so if that size wasn't economical, I'd buy one slightly smaller. That should insure that the battery does the job for years, even when it's starting to fail. It should also make sure you can keep operating if the emergency was longer than initially planned. Yes, there are a lot of factors, like operating mode that this appears to ignore. I'm simply assuming things like full power or nothing when the operator might be running SSB or PSK-31 at 20 watts. I'm also ignoring portability, which I would not do if I was operating for fun. 73 -- Lynn On 3/5/2014 1:15 PM, Steve Baum wrote: There are so many things to consider when you try to calculate battery requirements for emergency operation, is it really possible to accurately predict how long a given battery will last? __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] FW: [K3] K3 Off Grid
That was suggested Chester. It works too. You can kick around numbers and theory all day. Real world is the best way and you have to remember, temp plays a major part too. I have lived off grid for two years. My experience has been through trial and error. Mind you I don't run just ham equipment, I run a whole house. Type of battery, method of charge , temp and age of battery bank all play into how long you can run before you reach 50 percent battery power rating. He was given many good examples of what would work and how to charge them. And he also made the choice to get a good quiet generator so that not only ham stuff and be run but also needed things in a disaster or emergency. I have seen people say solar and are wind turbine are not worth it. Well when you have nothing it is. Also knowing that my system is rated for 25 years, I can afford to put some away for new system and new technology. And I must say it is great not having utility bills. But, I have enjoyed following this thread and learning how others have and would do it. Oh and if any one is curious 1 - 12 volt system for led lights and ham stuff. 600 amp hours. Solar and wind turbine to charge. 1 - 48 volt system to run all my A/C needs. 800 amp hours. Solar / propane generator with self start and stop. And home made steam engine that runs a 48 volt alternator . Fun stuff. 73's Gerald - KC6CNN On Mar 5, 2014 4:47 PM, Chester Alderman alderm...@windstream.net wrote: Gosh Engineers...why not just suggest to Paul that he use the most simple method of finding out the voltage and current the K3 draws by pressing the K3's METER button 73, Tom - W4BQF -Original Message- From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Lynn W. Taylor, WB6UUT Sent: Wednesday, March 5, 2014 5:23 PM To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [K3] K3 Off Grid Here is how I'd do it, your mileage may vary. I'd measure the power draw at 100 watts key-down, and the power draw for receive. I'd assume 50% duty cycle. You can skip a lot of math by either ignoring the receive power draw (if it's low enough) and dividing by two, or adding them together and dividing by two (averaging them together). Multiply that number by the number of hours you need to be able to operate -- and that's your target capacity in amp-hours. That should over estimate the battery, so if that size wasn't economical, I'd buy one slightly smaller. That should insure that the battery does the job for years, even when it's starting to fail. It should also make sure you can keep operating if the emergency was longer than initially planned. Yes, there are a lot of factors, like operating mode that this appears to ignore. I'm simply assuming things like full power or nothing when the operator might be running SSB or PSK-31 at 20 watts. I'm also ignoring portability, which I would not do if I was operating for fun. 73 -- Lynn On 3/5/2014 1:15 PM, Steve Baum wrote: There are so many things to consider when you try to calculate battery requirements for emergency operation, is it really possible to accurately predict how long a given battery will last? __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] FW: [K3] K3 Off Grid
We were talking sizing a battery for emergency ops. I'd expect the internal meter to read current into the finals, which probably dates me pretty thoroughly to a time when finals was nearly always preceded by the word tube. I can't check the K3 manual to see what it actually measures because I don't have one. I have a KX3, and a huge 7a power supply to run it. -- Lynn On 3/5/2014 2:47 PM, Chester Alderman wrote: Gosh Engineers...why not just suggest to Paul that he use the most simple method of finding out the voltage and current the K3 draws by pressing the K3's METER button 73, Tom - W4BQF -Original Message- From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Lynn W. Taylor, WB6UUT Sent: Wednesday, March 5, 2014 5:23 PM To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [K3] K3 Off Grid Here is how I'd do it, your mileage may vary. I'd measure the power draw at 100 watts key-down, and the power draw for receive. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] FW: [K3] K3 Off Grid
Lynn, The K3 or KX3 measures the total current draw with quite reasonable accuracy. 73, Don W3FPR On 3/5/2014 7:17 PM, Lynn W. Taylor, WB6UUT wrote: We were talking sizing a battery for emergency ops. I'd expect the internal meter to read current into the finals, which probably dates me pretty thoroughly to a time when finals was nearly always preceded by the word tube. I can't check the K3 manual to see what it actually measures because I don't have one. I have a KX3, and a huge 7a power supply to run it. -- Lynn On 3/5/2014 2:47 PM, Chester Alderman wrote: Gosh Engineers...why not just suggest to Paul that he use the most simple method of finding out the voltage and current the K3 draws by pressing the K3's METER button 73, Tom - W4BQF -Original Message- From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Lynn W. Taylor, WB6UUT Sent: Wednesday, March 5, 2014 5:23 PM To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [K3] K3 Off Grid Here is how I'd do it, your mileage may vary. I'd measure the power draw at 100 watts key-down, and the power draw for receive. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] FW: [K3] K3 Off Grid
On 3/5/2014 4:02 PM, Gerald Manthey wrote: I have seen people say solar and are wind turbine are not worth it. Well when you have nothing it is. Also knowing that my system is rated for 25 years, I can afford to put some away for new system and new technology. And I must say it is great not having utility bills. It's all economics and accounting. Your cost of energy from those sources is replacement cost [stuff and labor] plus whatever debt cost you are currently carrying. You can choose to either include or exclude your own labor costs But, I have enjoyed following this thread and learning how others have and would do it. I have too!! Living a life totally off-the-grid is very hard, and I admire you. Running just your radio off-the-grid is a whole lot easier. I can sort of do that, LP but not necessarily QRP. We still pay our electricity, telephone, propane, grocery, gasoline, medical, and DirecTV bills. At our ages, that's not going to change. Our I'net is free, I host the wireless provider for our neighborhood on my tower. :-) And home made steam engine that runs a 48 volt alternator. OK, surely you have photos and an explanation!! :-))) I'd really like to see it. What turns the water to steam? Frequency of the alternator? Why 48VAC? 73, Fred K6DGW - Northern California Contest Club - CU in the 2014 Cal QSO Party 4-5 Oct 2014 - www.cqp.org __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] FW: [K3] K3 Off Grid
Folks - we're way exceeding the single topic posting limit on this thread. Lets close it at this time. 73, Eric elecraft.com __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] FW: [K3] K3 Off Grid
Most Engineers including me like lots of meters and we have the voltage and current instantaneous meters on our power supplies. The metering on the K3 is redundant with the meters on the power supply. A 50% duty cycle on transmit is way too much current. Holding your key down 50% of the time will not make you very popular and will not yield a good fist. About 30 to 35 % duty is a pretty good fist but you need to listen almost half the time if you are an excellent CW operator sending CQ and not getting any pile ups, so your duty cycle will vary from the hunt and pounce operator with less than 5% to the contest operator who holds a frequency and has a good answer rate which will have a duty cycle of maybe 15%. A good contest operator will need several rotors and a 1500 watt (or more) amp which are hardly candidates for battery power. So if you assume no rotary antenna and low power, you are good for a 48 hour contest with a good deep cycle battery starting at full charge. Do you have a good battery with full charge? That is entirely a different matter! Willis 'Cookie' Cooke, TDXS DX Chairman K5EWJ Trustee N5BPS, USS Cavalla, USS Stewart From: Chester Alderman alderm...@windstream.net To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Sent: Wednesday, March 5, 2014 4:47 PM Subject: [Elecraft] FW: [K3] K3 Off Grid Gosh Engineers...why not just suggest to Paul that he use the most simple method of finding out the voltage and current the K3 draws by pressing the K3's METER button 73, Tom - W4BQF -Original Message- From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Lynn W. Taylor, WB6UUT Sent: Wednesday, March 5, 2014 5:23 PM To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [K3] K3 Off Grid Here is how I'd do it, your mileage may vary. I'd measure the power draw at 100 watts key-down, and the power draw for receive. I'd assume 50% duty cycle. You can skip a lot of math by either ignoring the receive power draw (if it's low enough) and dividing by two, or adding them together and dividing by two (averaging them together). Multiply that number by the number of hours you need to be able to operate -- and that's your target capacity in amp-hours. That should over estimate the battery, so if that size wasn't economical, I'd buy one slightly smaller. That should insure that the battery does the job for years, even when it's starting to fail. It should also make sure you can keep operating if the emergency was longer than initially planned. Yes, there are a lot of factors, like operating mode that this appears to ignore. I'm simply assuming things like full power or nothing when the operator might be running SSB or PSK-31 at 20 watts. I'm also ignoring portability, which I would not do if I was operating for fun. 73 -- Lynn On 3/5/2014 1:15 PM, Steve Baum wrote: There are so many things to consider when you try to calculate battery requirements for emergency operation, is it really possible to accurately predict how long a given battery will last? __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] FW: [K3] K3 Off Grid
I guess you are way ahead of me Cookie because nothing you said in response to my statement, is related. 73, Tom - W4BQF - USS Forrestal - USS Saratoga - USS Enterprise - etc. From: WILLIS COOKE [mailto:wrco...@yahoo.com] Sent: Wednesday, March 5, 2014 10:20 PM To: Chester Alderman; elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] FW: [K3] K3 Off Grid Most Engineers including me like lots of meters and we have the voltage and current instantaneous meters on our power supplies. The metering on the K3 is redundant with the meters on the power supply. A 50% duty cycle on transmit is way too much current. Holding your key down 50% of the time will not make you very popular and will not yield a good fist. About 30 to 35 % duty is a pretty good fist but you need to listen almost half the time if you are an excellent CW operator sending CQ and not getting any pile ups, so your duty cycle will vary from the hunt and pounce operator with less than 5% to the contest operator who holds a frequency and has a good answer rate which will have a duty cycle of maybe 15%. A good contest operator will need several rotors and a 1500 watt (or more) amp which are hardly candidates for battery power. So if you assume no rotary antenna and low power, you are good for a 48 hour contest with a good deep cycle battery starting at full charge. Do you have a good battery with full charge? That is entirely a different matter! Willis 'Cookie' Cooke, TDXS DX Chairman K5EWJ Trustee N5BPS, USS Cavalla, USS Stewart _ From: Chester Alderman alderm...@windstream.net mailto:alderm...@windstream.net To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net mailto:elecraft@mailman.qth.net Sent: Wednesday, March 5, 2014 4:47 PM Subject: [Elecraft] FW: [K3] K3 Off Grid Gosh Engineers...why not just suggest to Paul that he use the most simple method of finding out the voltage and current the K3 draws by pressing the K3's METER button 73, Tom - W4BQF -Original Message- From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net ] On Behalf Of Lynn W. Taylor, WB6UUT Sent: Wednesday, March 5, 2014 5:23 PM To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net mailto:elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [K3] K3 Off Grid Here is how I'd do it, your mileage may vary. I'd measure the power draw at 100 watts key-down, and the power draw for receive. I'd assume 50% duty cycle. You can skip a lot of math by either ignoring the receive power draw (if it's low enough) and dividing by two, or adding them together and dividing by two (averaging them together). Multiply that number by the number of hours you need to be able to operate -- and that's your target capacity in amp-hours. That should over estimate the battery, so if that size wasn't economical, I'd buy one slightly smaller. That should insure that the battery does the job for years, even when it's starting to fail. It should also make sure you can keep operating if the emergency was longer than initially planned. Yes, there are a lot of factors, like operating mode that this appears to ignore. I'm simply assuming things like full power or nothing when the operator might be running SSB or PSK-31 at 20 watts. I'm also ignoring portability, which I would not do if I was operating for fun. 73 -- Lynn On 3/5/2014 1:15 PM, Steve Baum wrote: There are so many things to consider when you try to calculate battery requirements for emergency operation, is it really possible to accurately predict how long a given battery will last? __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net http://www.qsl.net/ Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
