Re: [Elecraft] Field Day experience with K3
Dave, ab9ca/4 wrote: This isn't right. The capacity of the battery in watts is 110x12 or about 1320WHr. If the load is 122w/hr the battery should be totally exhausted after about 11 hours. -- yep, I confused AH with WH, so that does not explain the problems the original writer had. Another way to analyze would be using just the current load: 2x17a = 34a x 30% = 10.2amp Then 110 A-H/10.2 A = 10.8 hours (theoretically) But battery discharge curves display the actual battery operating voltage one can expect to see. so one would probably reach an unworkable voltage sooner than 10.8 hours. The only good analysis would be if you have the discharge curve for the battery. These usually assume a 10% load (e.g. 11 A). Using the discharge curve you can predict battery life under load. I used a 30% duty cycle which provides the time weighting factor (integration factor). You can argue that in FD operations the duty cycle could be something other than 30%. I assumed that one does a lot more calling in FD than normal assumed Tx/Rx ratios that commercial radio industry uses (10%). In my professional observations of radio using backup battery power the useful life never approaches the theoretical expected battery life. Most of the time the system becomes unusable in about half the time expected from a battery bank. This is on a properly floated battery bank with periodic equalization (hams normally do not do this). Theoreticals are only a good starting point as they assume fully charged new batteries (rarely is either true). The 120AH solar charging system theoretically provides 10A at 12V which would lead one to believe it would supply the operating load of two radios. I rarely have seen solar panels output their full rated power. In the brightest sun it is normally running about 80% of label ratings. So there was something else occurring to cause the voltage to sag to 10v in the original posters operation. 73, Ed - KL7UW, WD2XSH/45 == BP40IQ 500 KHz - 10-GHz www.kl7uw.com EME: 50-1.1kw?, 144-1.4kw, 432-QRT, 1296-?, 3400-? DUBUS Magazine USA Rep dubus...@gmail.com Kits made by KL7UW http://www.kl7uw.com/kits.htm == __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] Field Day experience with K3
Thanks Ed for unraveling some of the misunderstanding of solar cells and batteries. It is pure folly to think that you can apply faulty math to highly optimistic and sometimes politicized ratings while totally ignoring system efficiencies and come to any meaningful conclusion. The standard way of rating audio power was to measure the RMS power at say 3% distortion. When marketing became all about watts the advertising folks took over and the manufacturers started using peak to peak watts and other wind at your back measuring systems. The same is true of solar cells where rebates, based upon power rating and other government intervention, have made a joke out of rating systems. Solar rating problems begin with the sun. It's always moving and therefore the angle of incidence is always changing. This immensely effects efficiency of lattice structures. The sun and Ohmic losses cause heating which further reduces efficiency. The result of all loses is a small fraction of rated values. Let me illustrate with some real test data. For a 12V/5W rated (approximately 200 square inches) panel with the American manufacturer's recommended controller I was able to charge a gel cell at just over 400ma (13.5v @ 402ma = 5.427W). That's slightly over the manufacture's rating. To obtain these values an ammeter was used to adjust the tilt and pan of the array for maximum. Current was continuously monitored and the time measured until the value halved (201ma). The controller maintained the 13.5v charging voltage so the power was halved as well. Sounds great but here is the rub. The time to half power averaged 15 minutes and then only between 10am and 2pm. If the array was laid flat on the ground and not oriented toward the sun I averaged less than 10 watt hours per day in June in Southern California high desert. That wouldn't run one K3/10 very long. 73, Fred, AE6QL -Original Message- From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Edward R. Cole Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2012 12:36 AM To: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Field Day experience with K3 Dave, ab9ca/4 wrote: This isn't right. The capacity of the battery in watts is 110x12 or about 1320WHr. If the load is 122w/hr the battery should be totally exhausted after about 11 hours. -- yep, I confused AH with WH, so that does not explain the problems the original writer had. Another way to analyze would be using just the current load: 2x17a = 34a x 30% = 10.2amp Then 110 A-H/10.2 A = 10.8 hours (theoretically) But battery discharge curves display the actual battery operating voltage one can expect to see. so one would probably reach an unworkable voltage sooner than 10.8 hours. The only good analysis would be if you have the discharge curve for the battery. These usually assume a 10% load (e.g. 11 A). Using the discharge curve you can predict battery life under load. I used a 30% duty cycle which provides the time weighting factor (integration factor). You can argue that in FD operations the duty cycle could be something other than 30%. I assumed that one does a lot more calling in FD than normal assumed Tx/Rx ratios that commercial radio industry uses (10%). In my professional observations of radio using backup battery power the useful life never approaches the theoretical expected battery life. Most of the time the system becomes unusable in about half the time expected from a battery bank. This is on a properly floated battery bank with periodic equalization (hams normally do not do this). Theoreticals are only a good starting point as they assume fully charged new batteries (rarely is either true). The 120AH solar charging system theoretically provides 10A at 12V which would lead one to believe it would supply the operating load of two radios. I rarely have seen solar panels output their full rated power. In the brightest sun it is normally running about 80% of label ratings. So there was something else occurring to cause the voltage to sag to 10v in the original posters operation. 73, Ed - KL7UW, WD2XSH/45 == BP40IQ 500 KHz - 10-GHz www.kl7uw.com EME: 50-1.1kw?, 144-1.4kw, 432-QRT, 1296-?, 3400-? DUBUS Magazine USA Rep dubus...@gmail.com Kits made by KL7UW http://www.kl7uw.com/kits.htm == __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support
Re: [Elecraft] Field Day experience with K3
Look at energy instead of power. You have a 120AH solar panel to a 110AH battery. What is your load? Two 100w transmitters running 12v at 17a dc load (204w load to the battery for each radio). Your Tx/Rx duty cycle is probably = 30% during FD (are you calling CQ FD CQ FD a lot?). So the load is 204w x2 x 0.30 = 122w which after an hour has totally discharged the 110AH battery if were not being charged by the solar panel. With solar charging at 120AH you still have a negative energy equation (so maybe it takes a couple hours operation to discharge the battery). It sounds as only one battery was used for two radios. A better solution would be separate batteries very close to the radios. Still the 120AH solar charging system is undersized to maintain the batteries very long. So lower RF power to 50w (as has been suggested) to lower dc load. Also increase dc wiring size to lower ohmic losses. Battery boosters will give a little more voltage at the end of battery life, but at the expense of battery current (no free lunch). I ran 20w psk-31 one FD using a single 60w solar panel and a 100AH diehard marine battery and was able to run about 6-hours. Of course psk-31 is keydown in transmit. The radio was a FT-847 so I do not know its efficiency running at 20w RF. The Rx and digital ckts probably consumed 3-4 amps continuously, and transmitter probably 50w at 50% efficiency for another 4 amps. So say it was 7 amps in transmit (7x12= 84w). I did not call CQ extensively but instead searched and pounced so most of the time was Rx so Tx/Rx duty cycle was probably 10%. Overall the load was probably 48w per hour so the 60w solar panel should hold the battery charge long-term. Things rarely run exactly according to theory. In my former job I maintained two remote repeater sites that were run on solar-charged batteries in summer and on alkaline batteries in winter (system auto-switched when solar battery voltage dropped to 10.5v). The solar system was two 60w solar panels feeding two 100AH deep-cycle batteries; winter was a 10,800 AH air-activated alkaline battery bank (90 1.5v cells in 10cell banks). Each 1.5v battery was rated at 1200AH. The site was operated in a stby status 99% of the time with only the UHF control radios activated full-time. We got three years life between battery replacements (helicopter only access). With new batteries the site had a 30-day operational status. Repeaters were 30w and there were more than one at each site. 73, Ed - KL7UW, WD2XSH/45 == BP40IQ 500 KHz - 10-GHz www.kl7uw.com EME: 50-1.1kw?, 144-1.4kw, 432-QRT, 1296-?, 3400-? DUBUS Magazine USA Rep dubus...@gmail.com Kits made by KL7UW http://www.kl7uw.com/kits.htm == __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] Field Day experience with K3
Hello Jack Thankfully, I have not been in a real emergency, but one of my prime directives would be to first establish a stable and exclusive channel, OK, it might have to change from time to time, but not like a contest situation. Having established a channel, one of the power-lean digital modes would be the choice for me: I keep hearing stories of working across the world on a dead band with half a noodlewatt. The incoming data is captured on a power-lean laptop, palmtop, Iphone unambiguously in plain language and forwarded or printed off if you must with a small printer. I declare I haven't done any of this, it's just my firtile imagination - but I'd like to. David GUNA On 28/06/2012 22:43, Jack Brindle wrote: Guys, I think the point is this: There is a real emergency. You are off someplace with a big battery and have been operating for quite some time, enough for the battery to have gone down. You have another message to get through. In this situation, perhaps you should be running CW at a lower power, but still, the situation could be very real. Having a battery booster could be very helpful, and perhaps one should be added to the ham's arsenal. On the other hand, running 100 watts on battery is probably not a good idea either. Having been in emergency situations where you do not know when operations will end, you do everything you can to conserver your resources. That means lowering the TX power as much as possible. Even still, Murphy says that at some point when the battery is running out, someone will hand you an emergency message to get through. How do you handle it? As I noted, I'd then lower the power and grab the CW key... Jack Brindle, W6FB On Jun 28, 2012, at 2:54 PM, Matthew Zilmer wrote: You might want to get a battery booster. Here is one http://stores.tgelectronics.org/Detail.bok?no=10 . I can recommend that one. Had one for a couple years and use it to boost to 14.5VDC from whatever voltage any time of day from a solar- charged battery. I think my K3 likes that 14.5V! Matt Zilmer Consultant - Product Management Dept. Magellan Navigation / MiTAC Digital Corp. Tel: (909) 394-6052 Cell: (909) 730-6552 Si fractum non sit, noli id reficere -Original Message- From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net ] On Behalf Of Peter Wollan Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2012 11:07 AM To: John Kountz Cc: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Field Day experience with K3 The problem here isn't the battery AH capacity, but the voltage supply. It could be dropping below 10 vdc because both radios are on the same supply, or because the power supply wires are too fine gauge, or because the battery is defective. The K3 is less robust to supply voltage than the other Elecraft radios. The K2 is rated for 10-15 volts; the K1, KX1, and KX3 go down a lot lower, I think 8 volts. I looked at the K3 documents to see what minimum voltage it requires, and I couldn't find it -- I think it's something like 11, but it may be 11.5 or even 12. You'd probably do fine just by using a separate battery for each radio, and not letting it run down too far. A voltage booster isn't needed, as lots of operators all over the world have demonstrated. Peter W0LLN On Thu, Jun 28, 2012 at 12:19 PM, John Kountz j...@t6ee.com wrote: ... In tandom operation, the Eagle was not affected by momentary voltage dips (below 10 VDC) whereas the K3 would shut down. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] Field Day experience with K3
I agree. In this case (pulling lots of current with a respectable duty cycle), the booster only gives you more operating time in the margin when the K3's DC input sees less than 11V. I typically run this AGM battery as low as 10V. And it takes longer to recharge using the solar PV source. I'm discovering that this battery is about flat now. It's 12 years old and won't hold a charge so well any more. Time for one of those Optima deep cycle 140AH Yellow Tops! 73, matt On Thu, 28 Jun 2012 21:06:58 -0700, you wrote: A battery booster doesn't do much good very long if you're drawing more current from the battery than your solar cell is putting into it like WO1S was. A dead battery just gets deader quicker. Dave AB7E On 6/28/2012 2:54 PM, Matthew Zilmer wrote: You might want to get a battery booster. Here is one http://stores.tgelectronics.org/Detail.bok?no=10. I can recommend that one. Had one for a couple years and use it to boost to 14.5VDC from whatever voltage any time of day from a solar-charged battery. I think my K3 likes that 14.5V! Matt Zilmer Consultant - Product Management Dept. Magellan Navigation / MiTAC Digital Corp. Tel: (909) 394-6052 Cell: (909) 730-6552 Si fractum non sit, noli id reficere __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] Field Day experience with K3
lot?). So the load is 204w x2 x 0.30 = 122w which after an hour has totally discharged the 110AH battery This isn't right. The capacity of the battery in watts is 110x12 or about 1320WHr. If the load is 122w/hr the battery should be totally exhausted after about 11 hours. Of course you should never intentionally fully discharge a battery so a reasonable time of operation on battery alone would be about 7 hours. The solar panel, if in full sun and at max efficiency would generate ~120w. This is barely enough to keep up with both transmitters. Nothing left over to recharge the batteries. 73 de dave ab9ca/4 On 6/29/12 3:05 AM, Edward R. Cole wrote: Look at energy instead of power. You have a 120AH solar panel to a 110AH battery. What is your load? Two 100w transmitters running 12v at 17a dc load (204w load to the battery for each radio). Your Tx/Rx duty cycle is probably = 30% during FD (are you calling CQ FD CQ FD a lot?). So the load is 204w x2 x 0.30 = 122w which after an hour has totally discharged the 110AH battery if were not being charged by the solar panel. With solar charging at 120AH you still have a negative energy equation (so maybe it takes a couple hours operation to discharge the battery). It sounds as only one battery was used for two radios. A better solution would be separate batteries very close to the radios. Still the 120AH solar charging system is undersized to maintain the batteries very long. So lower RF power to 50w (as has been suggested) to lower dc load. Also increase dc wiring size to lower ohmic losses. Battery boosters will give a little more voltage at the end of battery life, but at the expense of battery current (no free lunch). I ran 20w psk-31 one FD using a single 60w solar panel and a 100AH diehard marine battery and was able to run about 6-hours. Of course psk-31 is keydown in transmit. The radio was a FT-847 so I do not know its efficiency running at 20w RF. The Rx and digital ckts probably consumed 3-4 amps continuously, and transmitter probably 50w at 50% efficiency for another 4 amps. So say it was 7 amps in transmit (7x12= 84w). I did not call CQ extensively but instead searched and pounced so most of the time was Rx so Tx/Rx duty cycle was probably 10%. Overall the load was probably 48w per hour so the 60w solar panel should hold the battery charge long-term. Things rarely run exactly according to theory. In my former job I maintained two remote repeater sites that were run on solar-charged batteries in summer and on alkaline batteries in winter (system auto-switched when solar battery voltage dropped to 10.5v). The solar system was two 60w solar panels feeding two 100AH deep-cycle batteries; winter was a 10,800 AH air-activated alkaline battery bank (90 1.5v cells in 10cell banks). Each 1.5v battery was rated at 1200AH. The site was operated in a stby status 99% of the time with only the UHF control radios activated full-time. We got three years life between battery replacements (helicopter only access). With new batteries the site had a 30-day operational status. Repeaters were 30w and there were more than one at each site. 73, Ed - KL7UW, WD2XSH/45 == BP40IQ 500 KHz - 10-GHz www.kl7uw.com EME: 50-1.1kw?, 144-1.4kw, 432-QRT, 1296-?, 3400-? DUBUS Magazine USA Rep dubus...@gmail.com Kits made by KL7UW http://www.kl7uw.com/kits.htm == __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] Field Day experience with K3
Some batteries have nowhere near their label AH capacity to start with. Others go bad with no use, effectively on the shelf. In come cases when opened, it is clear that the battery has been deliberately short-sheeted not to be confused with shorted out. Use of filler below the cells, etc. Upon purchase, a cell should be fully charged and then checked for discharge curve. Defective cells can then be returned as defective, but new with sales slip and no arguments. Regretfully, I no longer buy batteries over the internet. I get them locally where they can be easily exchanged. I buy their house brand. One local outlet has specifically ended business with a few well-known manufacturers and has no hesitation talking about it. Over a period of time, about one in four or five is actually defective if you count AH well below label. The local guys also always take my old battery for recycle without an argument. I never have to go to collection points on the special days when local waste management accepts certain hazardous waste. Keeps local merchants in business. With this procedure, if later the battery diminishes, I know it's old age or something I did. 73, Guy. On Fri, Jun 29, 2012 at 3:28 PM, dave ho13d...@gmail.com wrote: lot?). So the load is 204w x2 x 0.30 = 122w which after an hour has totally discharged the 110AH battery This isn't right. The capacity of the battery in watts is 110x12 or about 1320WHr. If the load is 122w/hr the battery should be totally exhausted after about 11 hours. Of course you should never intentionally fully discharge a battery so a reasonable time of operation on battery alone would be about 7 hours. The solar panel, if in full sun and at max efficiency would generate ~120w. This is barely enough to keep up with both transmitters. Nothing left over to recharge the batteries. 73 de dave ab9ca/4 On 6/29/12 3:05 AM, Edward R. Cole wrote: Look at energy instead of power. You have a 120AH solar panel to a 110AH battery. What is your load? Two 100w transmitters running 12v at 17a dc load (204w load to the battery for each radio). Your Tx/Rx duty cycle is probably = 30% during FD (are you calling CQ FD CQ FD a lot?). So the load is 204w x2 x 0.30 = 122w which after an hour has totally discharged the 110AH battery if were not being charged by the solar panel. With solar charging at 120AH you still have a negative energy equation (so maybe it takes a couple hours operation to discharge the battery). It sounds as only one battery was used for two radios. A better solution would be separate batteries very close to the radios. Still the 120AH solar charging system is undersized to maintain the batteries very long. So lower RF power to 50w (as has been suggested) to lower dc load. Also increase dc wiring size to lower ohmic losses. Battery boosters will give a little more voltage at the end of battery life, but at the expense of battery current (no free lunch). I ran 20w psk-31 one FD using a single 60w solar panel and a 100AH diehard marine battery and was able to run about 6-hours. Of course psk-31 is keydown in transmit. The radio was a FT-847 so I do not know its efficiency running at 20w RF. The Rx and digital ckts probably consumed 3-4 amps continuously, and transmitter probably 50w at 50% efficiency for another 4 amps. So say it was 7 amps in transmit (7x12= 84w). I did not call CQ extensively but instead searched and pounced so most of the time was Rx so Tx/Rx duty cycle was probably 10%. Overall the load was probably 48w per hour so the 60w solar panel should hold the battery charge long-term. Things rarely run exactly according to theory. In my former job I maintained two remote repeater sites that were run on solar-charged batteries in summer and on alkaline batteries in winter (system auto-switched when solar battery voltage dropped to 10.5v). The solar system was two 60w solar panels feeding two 100AH deep-cycle batteries; winter was a 10,800 AH air-activated alkaline battery bank (90 1.5v cells in 10cell banks). Each 1.5v battery was rated at 1200AH. The site was operated in a stby status 99% of the time with only the UHF control radios activated full-time. We got three years life between battery replacements (helicopter only access). With new batteries the site had a 30-day operational status. Repeaters were 30w and there were more than one at each site. 73, Ed - KL7UW, WD2XSH/45 == BP40IQ 500 KHz - 10-GHz www.kl7uw.com EME: 50-1.1kw?, 144-1.4kw, 432-QRT, 1296-?, 3400-? DUBUS Magazine USA Rep dubus...@gmail.com Kits made by KL7UW http://www.kl7uw.com/kits.htm == __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help:
Re: [Elecraft] Field Day experience with K3
Slight additional correction... Energy is computed as the integral of power over time. The power itself from a battery that is itself not under recharge is constantly changing over time even with fixed load. Thus, the actual energy computed is slightly less then the value you get with power times hours since power is not constant. PEH's iPad On Jun 29, 2012, at 12:28 PM, dave ho13d...@gmail.com wrote: lot?). So the load is 204w x2 x 0.30 = 122w which after an hour has totally discharged the 110AH battery This isn't right. The capacity of the battery in watts is 110x12 or about 1320WHr. If the load is 122w/hr the battery should be totally exhausted after about 11 hours. Of course you should never intentionally fully discharge a battery so a reasonable time of operation on battery alone would be about 7 hours. The solar panel, if in full sun and at max efficiency would generate ~120w. This is barely enough to keep up with both transmitters. Nothing left over to recharge the batteries. 73 de dave ab9ca/4 On 6/29/12 3:05 AM, Edward R. Cole wrote: Look at energy instead of power. You have a 120AH solar panel to a 110AH battery. What is your load? Two 100w transmitters running 12v at 17a dc load (204w load to the battery for each radio). Your Tx/Rx duty cycle is probably = 30% during FD (are you calling CQ FD CQ FD a lot?). So the load is 204w x2 x 0.30 = 122w which after an hour has totally discharged the 110AH battery if were not being charged by the solar panel. With solar charging at 120AH you still have a negative energy equation (so maybe it takes a couple hours operation to discharge the battery). It sounds as only one battery was used for two radios. A better solution would be separate batteries very close to the radios. Still the 120AH solar charging system is undersized to maintain the batteries very long. So lower RF power to 50w (as has been suggested) to lower dc load. Also increase dc wiring size to lower ohmic losses. Battery boosters will give a little more voltage at the end of battery life, but at the expense of battery current (no free lunch). I ran 20w psk-31 one FD using a single 60w solar panel and a 100AH diehard marine battery and was able to run about 6-hours. Of course psk-31 is keydown in transmit. The radio was a FT-847 so I do not know its efficiency running at 20w RF. The Rx and digital ckts probably consumed 3-4 amps continuously, and transmitter probably 50w at 50% efficiency for another 4 amps. So say it was 7 amps in transmit (7x12= 84w). I did not call CQ extensively but instead searched and pounced so most of the time was Rx so Tx/Rx duty cycle was probably 10%. Overall the load was probably 48w per hour so the 60w solar panel should hold the battery charge long-term. Things rarely run exactly according to theory. In my former job I maintained two remote repeater sites that were run on solar-charged batteries in summer and on alkaline batteries in winter (system auto-switched when solar battery voltage dropped to 10.5v). The solar system was two 60w solar panels feeding two 100AH deep-cycle batteries; winter was a 10,800 AH air-activated alkaline battery bank (90 1.5v cells in 10cell banks). Each 1.5v battery was rated at 1200AH. The site was operated in a stby status 99% of the time with only the UHF control radios activated full-time. We got three years life between battery replacements (helicopter only access). With new batteries the site had a 30-day operational status. Repeaters were 30w and there were more than one at each site. 73, Ed - KL7UW, WD2XSH/45 == BP40IQ 500 KHz - 10-GHz www.kl7uw.com EME: 50-1.1kw?, 144-1.4kw, 432-QRT, 1296-?, 3400-? DUBUS Magazine USA Rep dubus...@gmail.com Kits made by KL7UW http://www.kl7uw.com/kits.htm == __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
[Elecraft] Field Day experience with K3
Fellow K3 guys: N6L, our 2AORG solar powered Field Day station was specifically configured to demonstrate off-the-grid emergency opperations and thus provided an excellent opportunity to put one of my two K3 (sn 3271 and 2215) to work under less than the comforts of home. Disquietingly, the K3 wasn't up to the task! Let me explain: both the K3 and our second radio, a TenTec Eagle (Model 599AT sn 3051271430) were fed from the same 120 watt Power Film Panel /110 AmpHr GSM battery combination and operated at 100W output. In tandom operation, the Eagle was not affected by momentary voltage dips (below 10 VDC) whereas the K3 would shut down. With both radios in SSB mode and following the first K3 shut down, the K3s operating environment was changed: different bands, different antennas, reduced power output (to 10 watts) different operators and, finally different solar /GSM battery combinations. None remedied the problem. Following from our experience, while the K3 and the Eagle offer excellent operating characteristics, beware of the K3 under extenuating circumstances; it's liable to let you down even at low output power levels. The only potential solution may be found in a voltage boost device such as the N8XJK boost regulators http://stores.tgelectronics.org/Categories.bok?category=Boosters Unfortunately, following the research necessary to uncover a source of these devices Field Day was over. Next year for sure! 73 John Kountz, WO1S/T6EE __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] Field Day experience with K3
John: That is odd, we ran a K3 from a 27 AH battery without any problems whatsoever. Gregg W6IZT -Original Message- From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of John Kountz Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2012 1:20 PM To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: [Elecraft] Field Day experience with K3 Fellow K3 guys: N6L, our 2AORG solar powered Field Day station was specifically configured to demonstrate off-the-grid emergency opperations and thus provided an excellent opportunity to put one of my two K3 (sn 3271 and 2215) to work under less than the comforts of home. Disquietingly, the K3 wasn't up to the task! Let me explain: both the K3 and our second radio, a TenTec Eagle (Model 599AT sn 3051271430) were fed from the same 120 watt Power Film Panel /110 AmpHr GSM battery combination and operated at 100W output. In tandom operation, the Eagle was not affected by momentary voltage dips (below 10 VDC) whereas the K3 would shut down. With both radios in SSB mode and following the first K3 shut down, the K3s operating environment was changed: different bands, different antennas, reduced power output (to 10 watts) different operators and, finally different solar /GSM battery combinations. None remedied the problem. Following from our experience, while the K3 and the Eagle offer excellent operating characteristics, beware of the K3 under extenuating circumstances; it's liable to let you down even at low output power levels. The only potential solution may be found in a voltage boost device such as the N8XJK boost regulators http://stores.tgelectronics.org/Categories.bok?category=Boosters Unfortunately, following the research necessary to uncover a source of these devices Field Day was over. Next year for sure! 73 John Kountz, WO1S/T6EE __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] Field Day experience with K3
John The fact that the voltage dropped below 10 volts DC causes me to wonder about the either the adequacy of the wire size used (for the distance involved) or the tightness of the connections to the battery. A 110 AH GSM battery should not drop that much with even 2 100 watt radios drawing current from it. The fact that the K3 is designed to shut down when the voltage gets too low is a good point in its design IMHO. 73, Don W3FPR On 6/28/2012 1:19 PM, John Kountz wrote: Disquietingly, the K3 wasn't up to the task! Let me explain: both the K3 and our second radio, a TenTec Eagle (Model 599AT sn 3051271430) were fed from the same 120 watt Power Film Panel /110 AmpHr GSM battery combination and operated at 100W output. In tandom operation, the Eagle was not affected by momentary voltage dips (below 10 VDC) whereas the K3 would shut down. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] Field Day experience with K3
I bet the TT got pretty dirty TX at low voltage. Rick Tiny iPhone keypad, sorry for typos On Jun 28, 2012, at 10:19 AM, John Kountz j...@t6ee.com wrote: Fellow K3 guys: N6L, our 2AORG solar powered Field Day station was specifically configured to demonstrate off-the-grid emergency opperations and thus provided an excellent opportunity to put one of my two K3 (sn 3271 and 2215) to work under less than the comforts of home. Disquietingly, the K3 wasn't up to the task! Let me explain: both the K3 and our second radio, a TenTec Eagle (Model 599AT sn 3051271430) were fed from the same 120 watt Power Film Panel /110 AmpHr GSM battery combination and operated at 100W output. In tandom operation, the Eagle was not affected by momentary voltage dips (below 10 VDC) whereas the K3 would shut down. With both radios in SSB mode and following the first K3 shut down, the K3s operating environment was changed: different bands, different antennas, reduced power output (to 10 watts) different operators and, finally different solar /GSM battery combinations. None remedied the problem. Following from our experience, while the K3 and the Eagle offer excellent operating characteristics, beware of the K3 under extenuating circumstances; it's liable to let you down even at low output power levels. The only potential solution may be found in a voltage boost device such as the N8XJK boost regulators http://stores.tgelectronics.org/Categories.bok?category=Boosters Unfortunately, following the research necessary to uncover a source of these devices Field Day was over. Next year for sure! 73 John Kountz, WO1S/T6EE __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] Field Day experience with K3
We also ran my K3 at 100 watts connected to a 100 AH battery and solar panel for a portion of Field day - the wire was #12 AWG about 5 feet long and the connections were tight. Just for kicks, we checked the voltage during a 100 watt steady keydown and found it to be over 12.3 volts after a half hour of operation. 73, Donn W3FPR On 6/28/2012 1:28 PM, Gregg Marco W6IZT wrote: John: That is odd, we ran a K3 from a 27 AH battery without any problems whatsoever. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] Field Day experience with K3
The problem here isn't the battery AH capacity, but the voltage supply. It could be dropping below 10 vdc because both radios are on the same supply, or because the power supply wires are too fine gauge, or because the battery is defective. The K3 is less robust to supply voltage than the other Elecraft radios. The K2 is rated for 10-15 volts; the K1, KX1, and KX3 go down a lot lower, I think 8 volts. I looked at the K3 documents to see what minimum voltage it requires, and I couldn't find it -- I think it's something like 11, but it may be 11.5 or even 12. You'd probably do fine just by using a separate battery for each radio, and not letting it run down too far. A voltage booster isn't needed, as lots of operators all over the world have demonstrated. Peter W0LLN On Thu, Jun 28, 2012 at 12:19 PM, John Kountz j...@t6ee.com wrote: ... In tandom operation, the Eagle was not affected by momentary voltage dips (below 10 VDC) whereas the K3 would shut down. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] Field Day experience with K3
Page 8 of the Owners Manual... Specifications. 11V Minimum. 73. Ken K3IU On 6/28/2012 2:07 PM, Peter Wollan wrote: The problem here isn't the battery AH capacity, but the voltage supply. It could be dropping below 10 vdc because both radios are on the same supply, or because the power supply wires are too fine gauge, or because the battery is defective. The K3 is less robust to supply voltage than the other Elecraft radios. The K2 is rated for 10-15 volts; the K1, KX1, and KX3 go down a lot lower, I think 8 volts. I looked at the K3 documents to see what minimum voltage it requires, and I couldn't find it -- I think it's something like 11, but it may be 11.5 or even 12. You'd probably do fine just by using a separate battery for each radio, and not letting it run down too far. A voltage booster isn't needed, as lots of operators all over the world have demonstrated. Peter W0LLN On Thu, Jun 28, 2012 at 12:19 PM, John Kountz j...@t6ee.com wrote: ... In tandom operation, the Eagle was not affected by momentary voltage dips (below 10 VDC) whereas the K3 would shut down. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] Field Day experience with K3
The K3/10 will run down to 9.0 V or so -- much lower than almost any other desktop transceiver. Of course available power output will drop at such low voltages. The K3/100 needs 11 V to make 100 W on most bands (and higher on some bands), but it should not shut down completely until you hit that 9.0 V level. The radio will automatically reduce power (or drop completely out of QRO mode, bypassing the KPA3) as required. If you notice any interesting behavior other than what I described, let me know. 73, Wayne N6KR On Jun 28, 2012, at 11:07 AM, Peter Wollan wrote: The problem here isn't the battery AH capacity, but the voltage supply. It could be dropping below 10 vdc because both radios are on the same supply, or because the power supply wires are too fine gauge, or because the battery is defective. The K3 is less robust to supply voltage than the other Elecraft radios. The K2 is rated for 10-15 volts; the K1, KX1, and KX3 go down a lot lower, I think 8 volts. I looked at the K3 documents to see what minimum voltage it requires, and I couldn't find it -- I think it's something like 11, but it may be 11.5 or even 12. You'd probably do fine just by using a separate battery for each radio, and not letting it run down too far. A voltage booster isn't needed, as lots of operators all over the world have demonstrated. Peter W0LLN On Thu, Jun 28, 2012 at 12:19 PM, John Kountz j...@t6ee.com wrote: ... In tandom operation, the Eagle was not affected by momentary voltage dips (below 10 VDC) whereas the K3 would shut down. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] Field Day experience with K3
Let me make sure I understand this correctly. Your K3, which is spec'd for a minimum operating voltage of 11 volts, is somehow not up to the task because it doesn't work properly at voltages less than 10 volts. I look at it differently. Your power source was clearly not up to the task, and apparently neither was your system engineering if the power source was not capable of providing the required power under the circumstances at hand. At first glance, I'd be surprised if you were getting anything even close to 120 watts out of that solar panel since they are spec'd for full sunlight conditions that rarely hold up on a continuous basis (been there, done that), so even a voltage booster isn't going to function very long when you're draining enough current to feed two rigs at 100 watts. I think you need to rethink your strategy Dave AB7E On 6/28/2012 10:19 AM, John Kountz wrote: Fellow K3 guys: N6L, our 2AORG solar powered Field Day station was specifically configured to demonstrate off-the-grid emergency opperations and thus provided an excellent opportunity to put one of my two K3 (sn 3271 and 2215) to work under less than the comforts of home. Disquietingly, the K3 wasn't up to the task! Let me explain: both the K3 and our second radio, a TenTec Eagle (Model 599AT sn 3051271430) were fed from the same 120 watt Power Film Panel /110 AmpHr GSM battery combination and operated at 100W output. In tandom operation, the Eagle was not affected by momentary voltage dips (below 10 VDC) whereas the K3 would shut down. With both radios in SSB mode and following the first K3 shut down, the K3s operating environment was changed: different bands, different antennas, reduced power output (to 10 watts) different operators and, finally different solar /GSM battery combinations. None remedied the problem. Following from our experience, while the K3 and the Eagle offer excellent operating characteristics, beware of the K3 under extenuating circumstances; it's liable to let you down even at low output power levels. The only potential solution may be found in a voltage boost device such as the N8XJK boost regulators http://stores.tgelectronics.org/Categories.bok?category=Boosters Unfortunately, following the research necessary to uncover a source of these devices Field Day was over. Next year for sure! 73 John Kountz, WO1S/T6EE ___ __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] Field Day experience with K3
I would not want to be running an IMD sensitive mode like PSK with 11 V. We came close at our location a few times between generator runs - 11.3 V or so and my outboard IMD meter still showed an acceptable signal - IMD -25db or less. 73 de Eric, KG6MZS On Jun 28, 2012, at 11:44 AM, Wayne Burdick wrote: The K3/100 needs 11 V to make 100 W on most bands (and higher on some bands), but it should not shut down completely until you hit that 9.0 V level. The radio will automatically reduce power (or drop completely out of QRO mode, bypassing the KPA3) as required. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] Field Day experience with K3
If your supply voltage is too low for a given application, I suggest dropping TX power. In the case of PSK31, which works well at very low S/N ratios, I suspect 50 W would have worked just as well as 100 W for 99% of contacts. 73, Wayne N6KR On Jun 28, 2012, at 11:54 AM, Elecraft K3 wrote: I would not want to be running an IMD sensitive mode like PSK with 11 V. We came close at our location a few times between generator runs - 11.3 V or so and my outboard IMD meter still showed an acceptable signal - IMD -25db or less. 73 de Eric, KG6MZS On Jun 28, 2012, at 11:44 AM, Wayne Burdick wrote: The K3/100 needs 11 V to make 100 W on most bands (and higher on some bands), but it should not shut down completely until you hit that 9.0 V level. The radio will automatically reduce power (or drop completely out of QRO mode, bypassing the KPA3) as required. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] Field Day experience with K3
K3 voltage specs are 11-15Vand the Eagle spec is 13.8V +- 15% that's about 11.7V- 15.9V. even though the Eagle would not shut down you were definitely running below spec voltage and probably causing some IMD if not excessive heat. My other concern would be how low was the battery voltage getting. AGM or any wet battery for that matter should not be used when the voltage right at the battery posts drops to low. if it is you are damaging the battery. and 10V is definitely too low. At my summer cottage its solar charged battery only.when the cell voltage is near 11.4V I still get 11V at the rig at 100W keydown as I use heavy cable mostly 10AWG from the battery only 5ft away and a short 12 AWG from the distribution to the rig. The battery also runs lighting etc. Ive never had the K3 shutdown due to voltage faults. and my rule is if it goes below 11.3V at the terminals it time to go QRT and bed. The K3 shutting down is just a safety measure to prevent damage and dirty transmissions. Not a problem in my opinion, more a good feature.I hope that the other rig wasn't splattering to much at those lower voltages. David Moes VE3DVY --- Original message --- Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Field Day experience with K3 From: Peter Wollan peter.wol...@gmail.com To: John Kountz j...@t6ee.com Cc: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Date: Thursday, 28/06/2012 2:07 PM The problem here isn't the battery AH capacity, but the voltage supply. It could be dropping below 10 vdc because both radios are on the same supply, or because the power supply wires are too fine gauge, or because the battery is defective. The K3 is less robust to supply voltage than the other Elecraft radios. The K2 is rated for 10-15 volts; the K1, KX1, and KX3 go down a lot lower, I think 8 volts. I looked at the K3 documents to see what minimum voltage it requires, and I couldn't find it -- I think it's something like 11, but it may be 11.5 or even 12. You'd probably do fine just by using a separate battery for each radio, and not letting it run down too far. A voltage booster isn't needed, as lots of operators all over the world have demonstrated. Peter W0LLN On Thu, Jun 28, 2012 at 12:19 PM, John Kountz j...@t6ee.com wrote: ... In tandom operation, the Eagle was not affected by momentary voltage dips (below 10 VDC) whereas the K3 would shut down. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] Field Day experience with K3
It seems to me that the solution is to improve the voltage regulation of your power system, rather than implicate this radio or that one for it's inability to follow the wide voltage swings you are experiencing. Even if Brand X works under such conditions, why would you want to, for the various reasons already stated? Just because my car still happens to run with 10% water in the gasoline, is it a good idea to continue to do so? Yes, it might have been an inconvenience for your Field Day 2012, but I hope for 2013 you'll have a better solution. The suggestion to reduce K3 power by 2 dB (1/3 of an S-unit) to 63 W is a good one which I have followed for 15 years, and could well solve all of your problems. Additionally, I have used a boost regulator after the N8XJK design for almost ten years and now consider it indispensable. I made 300 contacts on one 35 A-h battery and a few more on another battery. That's pretty good efficiency. Regards, Al W6LX On Thu, Jun 28, 2012 at 12:19 PM, John Kountz j...@t6ee.com wrote: ... In tandom operation, the Eagle was not affected by momentary voltage dips (below 10 VDC) whereas the K3 would shut down. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] Field Day experience with K3
Why dont you FD guys take a 2v battery and series it with the 6 cell 12.8v LA battery that you usually use, matching the ah ratings. I use a 7 X 2v lead-acid cell backup battery system in my 15.2v power supply system. In a power failure I have 14.6v available. On 28/06/2012 18:07, Peter Wollan wrote: The problem here isn't the battery AH capacity, but the voltage supply. It could be dropping below 10 vdc because both radios are on the same supply, or because the power supply wires are too fine gauge, or because the battery is defective. The K3 is less robust to supply voltage than the other Elecraft radios. The K2 is rated for 10-15 volts; the K1, KX1, and KX3 go down a lot lower, I think 8 volts. I looked at the K3 documents to see what minimum voltage it requires, and I couldn't find it -- I think it's something like 11, but it may be 11.5 or even 12. You'd probably do fine just by using a separate battery for each radio, and not letting it run down too far. A voltage booster isn't needed, as lots of operators all over the world have demonstrated. Peter W0LLN On Thu, Jun 28, 2012 at 12:19 PM, John Kountzj...@t6ee.com wrote: ... In tandom operation, the Eagle was not affected by momentary voltage dips (below 10 VDC) whereas the K3 would shut down. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] Field Day experience with K3
You might want to get a battery booster. Here is one http://stores.tgelectronics.org/Detail.bok?no=10. I can recommend that one. Had one for a couple years and use it to boost to 14.5VDC from whatever voltage any time of day from a solar-charged battery. I think my K3 likes that 14.5V! Matt Zilmer Consultant - Product Management Dept. Magellan Navigation / MiTAC Digital Corp. Tel: (909) 394-6052 Cell: (909) 730-6552 Si fractum non sit, noli id reficere -Original Message- From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Peter Wollan Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2012 11:07 AM To: John Kountz Cc: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Field Day experience with K3 The problem here isn't the battery AH capacity, but the voltage supply. It could be dropping below 10 vdc because both radios are on the same supply, or because the power supply wires are too fine gauge, or because the battery is defective. The K3 is less robust to supply voltage than the other Elecraft radios. The K2 is rated for 10-15 volts; the K1, KX1, and KX3 go down a lot lower, I think 8 volts. I looked at the K3 documents to see what minimum voltage it requires, and I couldn't find it -- I think it's something like 11, but it may be 11.5 or even 12. You'd probably do fine just by using a separate battery for each radio, and not letting it run down too far. A voltage booster isn't needed, as lots of operators all over the world have demonstrated. Peter W0LLN On Thu, Jun 28, 2012 at 12:19 PM, John Kountz j...@t6ee.com wrote: ... In tandom operation, the Eagle was not affected by momentary voltage dips (below 10 VDC) whereas the K3 would shut down. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] Field Day experience with K3
Guys, I think the point is this: There is a real emergency. You are off someplace with a big battery and have been operating for quite some time, enough for the battery to have gone down. You have another message to get through. In this situation, perhaps you should be running CW at a lower power, but still, the situation could be very real. Having a battery booster could be very helpful, and perhaps one should be added to the ham's arsenal. On the other hand, running 100 watts on battery is probably not a good idea either. Having been in emergency situations where you do not know when operations will end, you do everything you can to conserver your resources. That means lowering the TX power as much as possible. Even still, Murphy says that at some point when the battery is running out, someone will hand you an emergency message to get through. How do you handle it? As I noted, I'd then lower the power and grab the CW key... Jack Brindle, W6FB On Jun 28, 2012, at 2:54 PM, Matthew Zilmer wrote: You might want to get a battery booster. Here is one http://stores.tgelectronics.org/Detail.bok?no=10 . I can recommend that one. Had one for a couple years and use it to boost to 14.5VDC from whatever voltage any time of day from a solar- charged battery. I think my K3 likes that 14.5V! Matt Zilmer Consultant - Product Management Dept. Magellan Navigation / MiTAC Digital Corp. Tel: (909) 394-6052 Cell: (909) 730-6552 Si fractum non sit, noli id reficere -Original Message- From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net ] On Behalf Of Peter Wollan Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2012 11:07 AM To: John Kountz Cc: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Field Day experience with K3 The problem here isn't the battery AH capacity, but the voltage supply. It could be dropping below 10 vdc because both radios are on the same supply, or because the power supply wires are too fine gauge, or because the battery is defective. The K3 is less robust to supply voltage than the other Elecraft radios. The K2 is rated for 10-15 volts; the K1, KX1, and KX3 go down a lot lower, I think 8 volts. I looked at the K3 documents to see what minimum voltage it requires, and I couldn't find it -- I think it's something like 11, but it may be 11.5 or even 12. You'd probably do fine just by using a separate battery for each radio, and not letting it run down too far. A voltage booster isn't needed, as lots of operators all over the world have demonstrated. Peter W0LLN On Thu, Jun 28, 2012 at 12:19 PM, John Kountz j...@t6ee.com wrote: ... In tandom operation, the Eagle was not affected by momentary voltage dips (below 10 VDC) whereas the K3 would shut down. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] Field Day experience with K3
On Thu, Jun 28, 2012 at 1:47 PM, David Gilbert xda...@cis-broadband.comwrote: ...Your power source was clearly not up to the task, and apparently neither was your system engineering -- The original post makes it clear that their field day setup wasn't adequate. That's part of the purpose of field day: to illustrate how a little thought, planning and testing before the event goes a long way. Well, there's always next year. Tony KT0NY -- http://www.isb.edu/faculty/facultydir.aspx?ddlFaculty=352 __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] Field Day experience with K3
A battery booster doesn't do much good very long if you're drawing more current from the battery than your solar cell is putting into it like WO1S was. A dead battery just gets deader quicker. Dave AB7E On 6/28/2012 2:54 PM, Matthew Zilmer wrote: You might want to get a battery booster. Here is one http://stores.tgelectronics.org/Detail.bok?no=10. I can recommend that one. Had one for a couple years and use it to boost to 14.5VDC from whatever voltage any time of day from a solar-charged battery. I think my K3 likes that 14.5V! Matt Zilmer Consultant - Product Management Dept. Magellan Navigation / MiTAC Digital Corp. Tel: (909) 394-6052 Cell: (909) 730-6552 Si fractum non sit, noli id reficere __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] Field Day experience with K3
Or if the connections to the battery are not tight - and that is what I suspect based on the symptoms.. If the voltage was dropping below 11 volts, it would indicate either a high resistance connection to the battery or a defective battery. The Ten-Tec may have kept on operating, but that is not necessarily a benefit if it created a high IMD situation. 100 watts on a battery supply will not last forever - our FD solar charged battery operation lasted only 1 hour at the 100 watt level. 73, Don W3FPR. On 6/29/2012 12:06 AM, David Gilbert wrote: A battery booster doesn't do much good very long if you're drawing more current from the battery than your solar cell is putting into it like WO1S was. A dead battery just gets deader quicker. Dave AB7E On 6/28/2012 2:54 PM, Matthew Zilmer wrote: You might want to get a battery booster. Here is one http://stores.tgelectronics.org/Detail.bok?no=10. I can recommend that one. Had one for a couple years and use it to boost to 14.5VDC from whatever voltage any time of day from a solar-charged battery. I think my K3 likes that 14.5V! Matt Zilmer Consultant - Product Management Dept. Magellan Navigation / MiTAC Digital Corp. Tel: (909) 394-6052 Cell: (909) 730-6552 Si fractum non sit, noli id reficere __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
