Re: [Elecraft] K3 QRQ

[Chester Alderman]

The solution to that is to go into Windows (assuming that is what you are 
using) and shut off all internally generated sound.

I can run up to the K3 max of 100 wpm with no stutter, with the sound disabled.

73,
Tom - W4BQF


-Original Message-
From: Elecraft [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of NE9U - 
Scott Jasper
Sent: Sunday, February 19, 2017 4:17 PM
To: Guy Olinger K2AV
Cc: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 QRQ

That explains things...My k3 has the S update and seems good.  The other one 
doesn't and is real stuttery at 38+

Scott


⁣Scott - NE9U

Sent from my Republic Wireless Cray 1​

On Feb 19, 2017, 4:34 PM, at 4:34 PM, Guy Olinger K2AV <k2av@gmail.com> 
wrote:
>Do you have the new synthesizers? The CW qrq timing issues were greatly 
>improved with the new syns. That was matter of less time for the syns 
>to settle.
>
>There is also a regular and fast qrq.
>
>73, Guy K2AV
>
>On Sun, Feb 19, 2017 at 12:00 PM NE9U - Scott Jasper <skjas...@att.net>
>wrote:
>
>> Has a solution to stuttery cw been posted for k3 qrq?
>> I know there is a cw qrq on/off but first time RIT is invoked it
>shuts
>> off
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>>
>> ⁣Scott - NE9U
>>
>> Sent from my Republic Wireless Cray 1​ 
>> __
>> Elecraft mailing list
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>> k2av@gmail.com
>
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 QRQ

[Guy Olinger K2AV]

Yup. The syn upgrade is an awesome mod.  73, Guy K2AV

On Sun, Feb 19, 2017 at 4:16 PM NE9U - Scott Jasper 
wrote:

> That explains things...My k3 has the S update and seems good.  The other
> one doesn't and is real stuttery at 38+
>
> Scott
>
>
> Scott - NE9U
>
> Sent from my Republic Wireless Cray 1
> On Feb 19, 2017, at 4:34 PM, Guy Olinger K2AV  wrote:
>
> Do you have the new synthesizers? The CW qrq timing issues were greatly
> improved with the new syns. That was matter of less time for the syns to
> settle.
>
> There is also a regular and fast qrq.
>
> 73, Guy K2AV
>
> On Sun, Feb 19, 2017 at 12:00 PM NE9U - Scott Jasper < skjas...@att.net>
> wrote:
>
> Has a solution to stuttery cw been posted for k3 qrq?
> I know there is a cw qrq on/off but first time RIT is invoked it shuts
> off
>
> Thanks
>
>
> ⁣Scott - NE9U
>
> Sent from my Republic Wireless Cray 1​
> __
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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> --
> Sent via Gmail Mobile on my iPhone
>
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 QRQ

[NE9U - Scott Jasper]

That explains things...My k3 has the S update and seems good.  The other one 
doesn't and is real stuttery at 38+

Scott


⁣Scott - NE9U

Sent from my Republic Wireless Cray 1​

On Feb 19, 2017, 4:34 PM, at 4:34 PM, Guy Olinger K2AV  
wrote:
>Do you have the new synthesizers? The CW qrq timing issues were greatly
>improved with the new syns. That was matter of less time for the syns
>to
>settle.
>
>There is also a regular and fast qrq.
>
>73, Guy K2AV
>
>On Sun, Feb 19, 2017 at 12:00 PM NE9U - Scott Jasper 
>wrote:
>
>> Has a solution to stuttery cw been posted for k3 qrq?
>> I know there is a cw qrq on/off but first time RIT is invoked it
>shuts
>> off
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>>
>> ⁣Scott - NE9U
>>
>> Sent from my Republic Wireless Cray 1​
>> __
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>> Message delivered to k2av@gmail.com
>
>-- 
>Sent via Gmail Mobile on my iPhone
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 QRQ

[Guy Olinger K2AV]

Do you have the new synthesizers? The CW qrq timing issues were greatly
improved with the new syns. That was matter of less time for the syns to
settle.

There is also a regular and fast qrq.

73, Guy K2AV

On Sun, Feb 19, 2017 at 12:00 PM NE9U - Scott Jasper 
wrote:

> Has a solution to stuttery cw been posted for k3 qrq?
> I know there is a cw qrq on/off but first time RIT is invoked it shuts
> off
>
> Thanks
>
>
> ⁣Scott - NE9U
>
> Sent from my Republic Wireless Cray 1​
> __
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
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>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to k2av@gmail.com

-- 
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 QRQ

[Fred Jensen]

I thought the QRQ timing issues were fixed with the new K3 synthesizer.  
QRQ mode went to off when RIT was on because the synthesizer couldn't 
settle fast enough.  That may still be true regardless of synthesizer.


73,

Fred ["Skip"] K6DGW
Sparks NV DM09dn
Washoe County

On 2/19/2017 8:59 AM, NE9U - Scott Jasper wrote:

Has a solution to stuttery cw been posted for k3 qrq?
I know there is a cw qrq on/off but first time RIT is invoked it shuts off

Thanks

⁣Scott - NE9U



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[Elecraft] K3 QRQ

[NE9U - Scott Jasper]

Has a solution to stuttery cw been posted for k3 qrq?
I know there is a cw qrq on/off but first time RIT is invoked it shuts off

Thanks


⁣Scott - NE9U

Sent from my Republic Wireless Cray 1​
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[Elecraft] K3 QRQ improvement suggestion

[Carl Clawson]

It would be nice if QRQ mode would engage when RIT is enabled with an
offset of 0.00. This is a common operating condition. My log software zeros
RIT after every contact and it stays there until someone calls me way off
frequency.

73 and thanks for listening,
Carl WS7L
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Re: [Elecraft] K3: QRQ high-speed QSK

[Dana]

W8JI wrote:
 
 Who the heck is copying that and what are
they copying???
 
 The highest speed record for a long time,
of copying 
 unexpected text, was only around 70-80 WPM.
That record held 
 the whole time I was growing up, and it was
from the 30's I 
 think.
 
 It is certainly impossible to copy 300 WPM
without decoding.
 
 I have some nagging questions about these
speed claims.
 
Tom - I was reviewing some of the archived
posts and ran across this one.
FYI, QSOs at 100 WPM happen on 40 CW and on
the Internet (iCW).  This is
copying in one's head, not on paper.  There
are a handful of guys, and one
YL, who have broken the 200 WPM barrier with
RUFZ, copying a single callsign
at that speed.  I forget who was first -
either Goran, YT7AW or Fabian,
DJ1YFK, both of whom I've met at the HST
competition - and they look normal
:.)

There are also some incredibly fast eastern
EUs who copy very high speeds on
paper with a shorthand system.  I presented
at the Contest Forum in Dayton
4-5 years ago and showed a picture of what
the shorthand looks like. 
McElroy's ~75 WPM (on paper) record is long
gone.

Barry W2UP



If you'd like to hear QRQ CW, I invite you
all to visit our website.

http://qrqcwnet.ning.com/

Here you can listen to recordings of QSO's at
100+ wpm, find tips, advice
and software to help you make the jump from
QRS (50 wpm) to QRQ.  There is
also software to allow you to use ICW,
Internet CW.  ICW allows you to 
participate in QSO's, roundtables and club
nets, when the bands are down.
By the way, CW at 100 wpm is often mistaken
for some sort of digital mode
transmission, as you'll see, if you listen to
the recordings on the website.
Joe, KH6/W3GW has a QRQ article in the most
recent CQ magazine (Sept. 2010).
An expanded version is also posted on the
club site.

73 de Dana  W8DH QRQ-CW 


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Re: [Elecraft] K3: QRQ high-speed QSK

[Andrew Moore]

 If you'd like to hear QRQ CW, I invite you all to visit our website
http://qrqcwnet.ning.com

QRQ may also be found on:

- the FOG (Fast Operators Group) net, Mondays and Thursdays at at 8 p.m.
Eastern (Tue/Fri 00:00 UTC).  They run a 60 WPM net but anybody interested
in improving their speed is welcome to join in. (note: used to be
Tuesday/Thursday but changed a while back to Monday/Thursday)

- CFO (Chick Fat Operators) informal sked, Tuesdays at 9 p.m. Eastern (Wed
01:00 UTC). They tend to not run as fast as QRQ ( 50) but run anywhere from
30-60 on the sked, depending on conditions and abilities.  All are welcome.
Usually runs for an hour. For more info see the CFO Home
Pagehttp://groups.google.com/group/Chicken-Fat-Operators-Club

(sorry for the plugs and slightly OT, list...)

..
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Re: [Elecraft] K3: QRQ high-speed QSK

[David Cutter]

Dana

Thanks for showing us this site.

I was particularly interested in the article regarding neuroplasticity 
associated with learning Morse code:  I thought you might like a note in a 
similar vein.

My old friend Stuart Kind G4AYP (sk) was Director of Forensic Science  here 
in the UK and he was of the opinion that reading Morse code was good for the 
brain.  He listened to 40m Morse QSOs in French and Spanish while settling 
down to sleep, he told me.

This is an article about him if you care to know more:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/obituaries/1428695/Professor-Stuart-Kind.html
It doesn't even mention his fondness for amateur radio - he was often heard 
on local nets and would join ham friends and I for a drink at a local pub.

Sorry for the bandwidth and thread drift, I couldn't resist.

73

David
G3UNA


 If you'd like to hear QRQ CW, I invite you
 all to visit our website.

 http://qrqcwnet.ning.com/
 
 73 de Dana  W8DH QRQ-CW

 
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Re: [Elecraft] K3: QRQ high-speed QSK

[Andrew Moore]

An astute reader has pointed out I forgot to include the frequency of the
FOG net and CFO sked.

FOG: Mondays and Thursdays at at 8 p.m. Eastern (Tue/Fri 00:00 UTC) on 7032
kHz
CFO: Tuesdays at 9 p.m. Eastern (Wed 01:00 UTC) around 7030 to 7032 kHz

--Andrew
..
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Re: [Elecraft] K3: QRQ high-speed QSK

[Barry]

W8JI wrote:
 
 Who the heck is copying that and what are they copying???
 
 The highest speed record for a long time, of copying 
 unexpected text, was only around 70-80 WPM. That record held 
 the whole time I was growing up, and it was from the 30's I 
 think.
 
 It is certainly impossible to copy 300 WPM without decoding.
 
 I have some nagging questions about these speed claims.
 
Tom - I was reviewing some of the archived posts and ran across this one.
FYI, QSOs at 100 WPM happen on 40 CW and on the Internet (iCW).  This is
copying in one's head, not on paper.  There are a handful of guys, and one
YL, who have broken the 200 WPM barrier with RUFZ, copying a single callsign
at that speed.  I forget who was first - either Goran, YT7AW or Fabian,
DJ1YFK, both of whom I've met at the HST competition - and they look normal
:.)

There are also some incredibly fast eastern EUs who copy very high speeds on
paper with a shorthand system.  I presented at the Contest Forum in Dayton
4-5 years ago and showed a picture of what the shorthand looks like. 
McElroy's ~75 WPM (on paper) record is long gone.

Barry W2UP

-- 
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Re: [Elecraft] K3: QRQ high-speed QSK

[Curt]

http://www.rufzxp.net/

This kid copies 200WPM

--- On Wed, 9/22/10, Barry w...@comcast.net wrote:

From: Barry w...@comcast.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3: QRQ high-speed QSK
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Date: Wednesday, September 22, 2010, 2:46 PM



W8JI wrote:
 
 Who the heck is copying that and what are they copying???
 
 The highest speed record for a long time, of copying 
 unexpected text, was only around 70-80 WPM. That record held 
 the whole time I was growing up, and it was from the 30's I 
 think.
 
 It is certainly impossible to copy 300 WPM without decoding.
 
 I have some nagging questions about these speed claims.
 
Tom - I was reviewing some of the archived posts and ran across this one.
FYI, QSOs at 100 WPM happen on 40 CW and on the Internet (iCW).  This is
copying in one's head, not on paper.  There are a handful of guys, and one
YL, who have broken the 200 WPM barrier with RUFZ, copying a single callsign
at that speed.  I forget who was first - either Goran, YT7AW or Fabian,
DJ1YFK, both of whom I've met at the HST competition - and they look normal
:.)

There are also some incredibly fast eastern EUs who copy very high speeds on
paper with a shorthand system.  I presented at the Contest Forum in Dayton
4-5 years ago and showed a picture of what the shorthand looks like. 
McElroy's ~75 WPM (on paper) record is long gone.

Barry W2UP

-- 
View this message in context: 
http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/K3-QRQ-high-speed-QSK-tp5057956p5560273.html
Sent from the [K3] mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
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Re: [Elecraft] K3: QRQ high-speed QSK

[Tommy Alderman]

Please get this correct! He did not copy at 200 wpm. He copied one call sign
at 200 wpm, but copying code and/or having a QSO at that speed is a
completely different situation. What he did was excellent but as I just
said, copying one call sign and having a QSO at those speeds is quite a
different animal.

Tom - W4BQF


-Original Message-
From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net
[mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Curt
Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2010 3:18 PM
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3: QRQ high-speed QSK

http://www.rufzxp.net/

This kid copies 200WPM

--- On Wed, 9/22/10, Barry w...@comcast.net wrote:

From: Barry w...@comcast.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3: QRQ high-speed QSK
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Date: Wednesday, September 22, 2010, 2:46 PM



W8JI wrote:
 
 Who the heck is copying that and what are they copying???
 
 The highest speed record for a long time, of copying 
 unexpected text, was only around 70-80 WPM. That record held 
 the whole time I was growing up, and it was from the 30's I 
 think.
 
 It is certainly impossible to copy 300 WPM without decoding.
 
 I have some nagging questions about these speed claims.
 
Tom - I was reviewing some of the archived posts and ran across this one.
FYI, QSOs at 100 WPM happen on 40 CW and on the Internet (iCW).  This is
copying in one's head, not on paper.  There are a handful of guys, and one
YL, who have broken the 200 WPM barrier with RUFZ, copying a single callsign
at that speed.  I forget who was first - either Goran, YT7AW or Fabian,
DJ1YFK, both of whom I've met at the HST competition - and they look normal
:.)

There are also some incredibly fast eastern EUs who copy very high speeds on
paper with a shorthand system.  I presented at the Contest Forum in Dayton
4-5 years ago and showed a picture of what the shorthand looks like. 
McElroy's ~75 WPM (on paper) record is long gone.

Barry W2UP

-- 
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.html
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[Elecraft] [K3] QRQ/CW+ and split

[GW0ETF]

=
Note 1: There are limitations to QRQ CW mode at present. You cannot use
SHIFT, or turn on RIT, XIT, or SPLIT. However, you can still use splits, in
effect, if you have the sub receiver installed: Turn the SUB on, and use VFO
B as the receive VFO. (In a subsequent firmware release, RIT/XIT will be
usable over a small range in QRQ mode.)
=

Is the plan to eventually implement normal split with CW+?

To use SO2V in N1MM with the K3 requires using normal SPLIT. It would be a
pity not to be able to take advantage of the greatly improved keying with
CW+ at the higher speeds used in contesting.  

73,

Stewart Rolfe, GW0ETF
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Re: [Elecraft] [K3] QRQ/CW+ and split

[Guy Olinger K2AV]

At 35 WPM, I do not perceive any change in transmitted keying between
CW and CW+.  There is a difference in QSK receive.  I certainly do not
hear anything that would be described by greatly improved keying on
the transmitted waveform.  Perhaps the circumstances of your keying
complaint needs further detailing?

Part of the issue with split, RIT, XIT, etc., is settling time for the
complete reversal of most of the circuitry paths involved in TX/RX
state change. CW+ removes the most time-costly state change reversals
to accomplish the 70 WPM clarity.  We need to remember that the change
as currently implemented was introduced to service very high speed
QRQ.  Working some of this backward to mid-speed QSK code without
introducing chirp and other artifacts will likely take some time.  The
lack of split in the reintroduce list for CW+ was deliberate and
probably marks split as the most difficult item for quick transition.

What seems more workable is pulling some of the CW+ code back into CW
to improve the QSK there.  Also, perhaps the K3 SO2V coding strategy
used by N1MM bears rethinking in light of the CW+ changes.

73, Guy.

On Thu, Jun 24, 2010 at 4:13 AM, GW0ETF gw0...@btinternet.com wrote:

 To use SO2V in N1MM with the K3 requires using normal SPLIT. It would be a
 pity not to be able to take advantage of the greatly improved keying with
 CW+ at the higher speeds used in contesting.
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Re: [Elecraft] [K3] QRQ/CW+ and split

[Andrew Moore]

 Is the plan to eventually implement normal split with CW+?

Wayne mentioned in the release notes for 3.99 firmware: In a subsequent
firmware release, RIT/XIT will be usable over a small range in QRQ mode.

 To use SO2V in N1MM with the K3 requires using normal SPLIT. It would be a
pity not to be able to take advantage of the greatly improved keying with
CW+ at the higher speeds used in contesting.

CW+ mode benefits begin at farily high speeds (I'm not sure what the
threshold is).  I'm not a contester but from what I hear, even with typical
speeds of contest reports, you'll be fine in regular CW mode.  Use the CW+
mode when you want to fly at say  60+ (again don't quote me on that cutoff
speed).

--Andrew
..


On Thu, Jun 24, 2010 at 7:24 AM, Guy Olinger K2AV olin...@bellsouth.netwrote:

 At 35 WPM, I do not perceive any change in transmitted keying between
 CW and CW+.  There is a difference in QSK receive.  I certainly do not
 hear anything that would be described by greatly improved keying on
 the transmitted waveform.  Perhaps the circumstances of your keying
 complaint needs further detailing?

 Part of the issue with split, RIT, XIT, etc., is settling time for the
 complete reversal of most of the circuitry paths involved in TX/RX
 state change. CW+ removes the most time-costly state change reversals
 to accomplish the 70 WPM clarity.  We need to remember that the change
 as currently implemented was introduced to service very high speed
 QRQ.  Working some of this backward to mid-speed QSK code without
 introducing chirp and other artifacts will likely take some time.  The
 lack of split in the reintroduce list for CW+ was deliberate and
 probably marks split as the most difficult item for quick transition.

 What seems more workable is pulling some of the CW+ code back into CW
 to improve the QSK there.  Also, perhaps the K3 SO2V coding strategy
 used by N1MM bears rethinking in light of the CW+ changes.

 73, Guy.

 On Thu, Jun 24, 2010 at 4:13 AM, GW0ETF gw0...@btinternet.com wrote:

  To use SO2V in N1MM with the K3 requires using normal SPLIT. It would be
 a
  pity not to be able to take advantage of the greatly improved keying with
  CW+ at the higher speeds used in contesting.
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Re: [Elecraft] [K3] QRQ/CW+ and split

[DK4XL]

If everybody would be able to zero beat / qnz, nobody 
would need rit/xit/split :-) 


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Re: [Elecraft] [K3] QRQ/CW+ and split

[Andrew Moore]

 If everybody would be able to zero beat / qnz, nobody would need
rit/xit/split :-)

True, though some QRQ ops (and even QRS) will deliberately run  slightly off
freq in a net to differentiate themselves from one another easily.
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Re: [Elecraft] [K3] QRQ/CW+ and split

[Radio Amateur N5GE]

On Thu, 24 Jun 2010 08:42:30 -0400, Andrew Moore
andrew.n...@gmail.com wrote:

See below...

[snip]
CW+ mode benefits begin at farily high speeds (I'm not sure what the
threshold is).  I'm not a contester but from what I hear, even with typical
speeds of contest reports, you'll be fine in regular CW mode.  Use the CW+
mode when you want to fly at say  60+ (again don't quote me on that cutoff
speed).

--Andrew
..

Yes, but one of the outstanding things about the CW+ feature is the
excellent QSK operation.  I seldom work CW at more than 25 WPM, but I
like to use the CW+ setting for it's better QSK.



On Thu, Jun 24, 2010 at 7:24 AM, Guy Olinger K2AV olin...@bellsouth.netwrote:

[snip]

I agree with Guy.  I'd like to see the QSK performance of CW+ in the
standard CW QSK setting.  If it were there, I would never use the CW+
setting.

 What seems more workable is pulling some of the CW+ code back into CW
 to improve the QSK there.  Also, perhaps the K3 SO2V coding strategy
 used by N1MM bears rethinking in light of the CW+ changes.

 73, Guy.

[snip]

BT 73 ES GUD LUK
DE N5GE, 
QCWA LIFE MEMBER 35102 AR SK

n...@n5ge.com
http://www.n5ge.com

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Re: [Elecraft] [K3] QRQ/CW+ and split

[Andrew Moore]

 Yes, but one of the outstanding things about the CW+ feature is the
excellent QSK operation.  I seldom work CW at more than 25 WPM, but I like
to use the CW+ setting for it's better QSK.

Agreed.  Hopefully in the future it will be addressed - as Wayne mentioned
in the firmware release.

In the meantime, if RIT is the only thing missing, assigning the PF1 key to
CW+ mode lets us quickly and easily toggle between CW+ mode (during
transmit) and CW mode with RIT (during receive) by using a single keypress.
Ideally it would all be done at once but I'm so happy with Elecraft's quick
and innovative solution, with plans to improve it in the future, that I can
live with the workaround in the meantime.

--Andrew, NV1B
..
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Re: [Elecraft] [K3] QRQ/CW+ and split

[WILLIS COOKE]

If everyone zero beat exactly then no one would be able to copy anything in a 
double or triple unless one station was extremely more powerful than all the 
others.  If three stations are transmitting simultaneously with 50 Hz 
separation then most proficient CW operators could copy at least one and some 
extremely proficient operators could copy all three.
 Willis 'Cookie' Cooke 
K5EWJ 





From: Andrew Moore andrew.n...@gmail.com
To: DK4XL dk...@web.de
Cc: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Sent: Thu, June 24, 2010 8:15:21 AM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [K3] QRQ/CW+ and split

 If everybody would be able to zero beat / qnz, nobody would need
rit/xit/split :-)

True, though some QRQ ops (and even QRS) will deliberately run  slightly off
freq in a net to differentiate themselves from one another easily.
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Re: [Elecraft] K3: QRQ high-speed QSK

[David Cutter]

A pro friend of mine cruises at 60wpm using the built-in keyer of my club 
746 (Mk1) in iambic mode.  I don't know what it sounded like at the other 
end but the QSO lasted several minutes with many overs.  I don't recall if 
it was QSK.  He made no complaints about the rig and he's used to all kinds 
of rigs and big into dxpeditions.  I could ask him for his opinion on this.

I'm surprised to read of resistance to this enhancement, anything that helps 
sell more K3s is good for me.

David
G3UNA



 Until Tom said I can't use my CW pulser with the K3, and now I know 
 why.,
 I would have said:

 Use an external keyer (such as the Super CMos from Idiom Press) for your
 tests.
 Real men don't use built-in keyers.

 And don't mistake the 'sound' of 100 WPM for a slowed-down version.
 It ain't the same.

 VE7XF
 
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Re: [Elecraft] K3: QRQ high-speed QSK

[Jim Miller KG0KP]

During a recent contest, one speedy cw op was cruising something over 30 wpm 
but was hard to copy as there was no tone at all on his signal, nothing but 
key clicks were being transmitted.  No, he was not near me.  Unknown radio. 
Not something I would want anybody to identify me with sending.

73, de Jim KG0KP

- Original Message - 
From: David Cutter d.cut...@ntlworld.com
To: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net; Ralph Parker ve...@dccnet.com
Sent: Saturday, May 15, 2010 1:34 AM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3: QRQ high-speed QSK


A pro friend of mine cruises at 60wpm using the built-in keyer of my club
 746 (Mk1) in iambic mode.  I don't know what it sounded like at the other
 end but the QSO lasted several minutes with many overs.  I don't recall if
 it was QSK.  He made no complaints about the rig and he's used to all 
 kinds
 of rigs and big into dxpeditions.  I could ask him for his opinion on 
 this.

 I'm surprised to read of resistance to this enhancement, anything that 
 helps
 sell more K3s is good for me.

 David
 G3UNA



 Until Tom said I can't use my CW pulser with the K3, and now I know
 why.,
 I would have said:

 Use an external keyer (such as the Super CMos from Idiom Press) for your
 tests.
 Real men don't use built-in keyers.

 And don't mistake the 'sound' of 100 WPM for a slowed-down version.
 It ain't the same.

 VE7XF

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Re: [Elecraft] K3: QRQ high-speed QSK

[Paul Christensen]

 I'm surprised to read of resistance to this enhancement, anything that
 helps sell more K3s is good for me.

There are some really good QRQ ops out there.  W4BQF and W2UP come to mind. 
I know that W4BQF routinely copies and sends over 100WPM, and he uses an 
Icom 7700.  Having owned the '7700, its QSK is very fast -- until you add an 
external amp where keying artifacts begin appearing on anything but the 
fastest switching amps. The '7800 I owned did not have this problem, nor 
does the K3.

I agree that getting the K3 to run more accurately when using faster CW and 
an external keyer would be a welcome update -- but not at the expense of 
introducing any other artifacts (e.g., clicks, delayed T/R time, etc.)

Paul, W9AC

 

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Re: [Elecraft] K3: QRQ high-speed QSK

[David Cutter]

This is a *little* OT, but I've just read in a 1914 WT book that they were 
regularly running at 300wpm on spark transmitters.  The very clever trick 
was to operate the spark continuously and FSK it by switching between taps 
in the antenna tank.  The receivers were direct conversion using rotary 
generators on nominal freq then recording the difference on a pen recorder - 
I suppose an undulator by another name.  I don't think FSK and DC were 
phrases in common use at the time.  Astonishing.

David
G3UNA



 There are some really good QRQ ops out there.  W4BQF and W2UP come to 
 mind.
 I know that W4BQF routinely copies and sends over 100WPM, and he uses an
 Icom 7700.  Having owned the '7700, its QSK is very fast -- until you add 
 an
 external amp where keying artifacts begin appearing on anything but the
 fastest switching amps. The '7800 I owned did not have this problem, nor
 does the K3.

 I agree that getting the K3 to run more accurately when using faster CW 
 and
 an external keyer would be a welcome update -- but not at the expense of
 introducing any other artifacts (e.g., clicks, delayed T/R time, etc.)

 Paul, W9AC 

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Re: [Elecraft] K3: QRQ high-speed QSK

[Tom W8JI]

Who the heck is copying that and what are they copying???

The highest speed record for a long time, of copying 
unexpected text, was only around 70-80 WPM. That record held 
the whole time I was growing up, and it was from the 30's I 
think.

It is certainly impossible to copy 300 WPM without decoding.

I have some nagging questions about these speed claims.



- Original Message - 
From: David Cutter d.cut...@ntlworld.com
To: Paul Christensen w...@arrl.net; Elecraft Reflector 
elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Sent: Saturday, May 15, 2010 7:40 AM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3: QRQ high-speed QSK


 This is a *little* OT, but I've just read in a 1914 WT 
 book that they were
 regularly running at 300wpm on spark transmitters.  The 
 very clever trick
 was to operate the spark continuously and FSK it by 
 switching between taps
 in the antenna tank.  The receivers were direct conversion 
 using rotary
 generators on nominal freq then recording the difference 
 on a pen recorder -
 I suppose an undulator by another name.  I don't think FSK 
 and DC were
 phrases in common use at the time.  Astonishing.

 David
 G3UNA



 There are some really good QRQ ops out there.  W4BQF and 
 W2UP come to
 mind.
 I know that W4BQF routinely copies and sends over 100WPM, 
 and he uses an
 Icom 7700.  Having owned the '7700, its QSK is very 
 fast -- until you add
 an
 external amp where keying artifacts begin appearing on 
 anything but the
 fastest switching amps. The '7800 I owned did not have 
 this problem, nor
 does the K3.

 I agree that getting the K3 to run more accurately when 
 using faster CW
 and
 an external keyer would be a welcome update -- but not at 
 the expense of
 introducing any other artifacts (e.g., clicks, delayed 
 T/R time, etc.)

 Paul, W9AC

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Re: [Elecraft] K3: QRQ high-speed QSK

[David Cutter]

Tom

Copied by machine onto tape, then passed slowly in front of a typist who 
read the ups and downs and typed from that.  My father did this in the 30's 
from recordings at 100wpm to his typing speed of about 30wpm.  I've seen 
the machines in the Poldu museum but they can't demonstrate them because 
they are running out of tape!

David
G3UNA



 Who the heck is copying that and what are they copying???

 The highest speed record for a long time, of copying unexpected text, was 
 only around 70-80 WPM. That record held the whole time I was growing up, 
 and it was from the 30's I think.

 It is certainly impossible to copy 300 WPM without decoding.

 I have some nagging questions about these speed claims.

 W8JI
 

 This is a *little* OT, but I've just read in a 1914 WT book that they 
 were
 regularly running at 300wpm on spark transmitters.  The very clever trick
 was to operate the spark continuously and FSK it by switching between 
 taps
 in the antenna tank.  The receivers were direct conversion using rotary
 generators on nominal freq then recording the difference on a pen 
 recorder -
 I suppose an undulator by another name.  I don't think FSK and DC were
 phrases in common use at the time.  Astonishing.

 David
 G3UNA
 

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Re: [Elecraft] K3: QRQ high-speed QSK

[Toby Pennington]

A friend of mine and I experiminted to see if the K3 could hear a bk during a 
transmission at high speeds

He was using the K3 with a pre BETA version,  and I was on a Icom 7700.   He 
would send a macro at a high speed,  and I would try to break him using two 
letters (ie).  Almost always he could hear my first break attempt.  We went up 
to 75 wpm and he could still hear my bk. 

So, we are wondering about what is going on concerning this thread.  Now,  it 
is possible my friend is hearing between words,  but the bk could be heard 
almost 100%. 

My friend says the delay should be set to double zero on the K3 for it to 
work

Toby  W4CAK

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Re: [Elecraft] K3: QRQ high-speed QSK

[Andrew Moore]

 Almost always he could hear my first break attempt.  We went up to 75 wpm
and he could still hear my bk

That's good to know.  Of course if it was pre-beta as you mention, changes
in firmware by release date could throw this off, but it's still
encouraging.

 So, we are wondering about what is going on concerning this thread.

It's not just about hearing the breaks -- it's also how good the K3 sounded
at those speeds.

W5UXH pointed me to some recordings of tests by N4LQ and I have to say, even
if things weren't perfect, I didn't hear anything too objectionable
(granted, I was very tired, listened to only a couple samples, and
briefly).  I've had a couple ops offer to let me hear some on-the-air tests
and I'll take them up on it.

What may be acceptable performance to a casual CW op or to a contester may
not be acceptable to a QRQ QSK guru.  At the same time, it's understandable
that reworking the K3 to achieve guru-level CW performance at this stage may
be in the best interest of a niche group of ops but not the company or the
majority of ops.

While I still feel that it's a shame to not achieve solid performance at
speeds pushing 100 WPM on a modern, high performance rig, for such a basic
and fundamental mode, I have no doubt there are tradeoffs involved and that
the designers are focusing on putting their money, time and efforts on what
most ops will consider most important.

Thanks for all the great responses in this thread.

--Andrew
..
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Re: [Elecraft] K3: QRQ high-speed QSK

[Steve Ellington]

A breaking station sounds like a clicking sound instead of a tone on the K3 
at speeds over 30-35wpm but at least it can be heard. The main problem is 
with keying irregularity. Yes, the dits are a bit short but that can be 
compensated for. The real problem is random variation between characters. 
For example, at high speed, an H could end up sounding like SE. It really 
strains the receiving op to interpret what you're trying to say.
Steve
N4LQ
- Original Message - 
From: Toby Pennington toby...@embarqmail.com
To: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Sent: Saturday, May 15, 2010 9:36 AM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3: QRQ high-speed QSK


A friend of mine and I experiminted to see if the K3 could hear a bk during 
a transmission at high speeds

 He was using the K3 with a pre BETA version,  and I was on a Icom 7700. 
 He would send a macro at a high speed,  and I would try to break him using 
 two letters (ie).  Almost always he could hear my first break attempt.  We 
 went up to 75 wpm and he could still hear my bk.

 So, we are wondering about what is going on concerning this thread.  Now, 
 it is possible my friend is hearing between words,  but the bk could be 
 heard almost 100%.

 My friend says the delay should be set to double zero on the K3 for it to 
 work

 Toby  W4CAK

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Re: [Elecraft] K3: QRQ high-speed QSK

[lstavenhagen]

While it's gracious of you to give the K3 the benefit of the doubt in the
hands of QRQ QSK gurus, I'm also not convinced this is a true failing of
the K3, if it's true (my K3's dits sound ok to me at 50wpm full QSK, tho
slightly shortened). 

In fact, compromise is a hallmark of good design. The hardware limits that
Guy talked about earlier are real so you have to be accommodating in those
regards if you're going to do the entire radio right. Putting it another
way, one would have to wonder what other things have gotten short shrift in
those radios that do somehow manage to do full QSK at 100wpm cleanly. If
it's the 7700, the rest of the RX performance in more useful areas is easily
exceeded significantly by the K3. If it's the 7800, the K3 still exceeds
many of its capabilities and at about 1/5 the cost.

I will say I'd be slightly more concerned if QRQ performance wasn't good in
semi-breakin mode. That would be a more legitimate gripe - has anyone
assessed the K3 at those speeds in non-QSK mode? Like I said, I only have
the ability to make 50wpm with the built in keyer (cocoaModem can go faster
but it's operating mode is J2A) so I don't know how it does above that. 

I'd personally kind of put this around the level of the QRP threads and
maybe a little above the knob threads. Not overly impressed.

73,
LS
W5QD
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View this message in context: 
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Sent from the [K3] mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
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Re: [Elecraft] K3: QRQ high-speed QSK

[John, KD8K]

I am not sure if this has been mentioned yet, but another setting that 
may have an affect on this is switching between New QSK and OLD QSK 
by tapping 3 under the CW WGHT Menu Item. I think that the default is 
New. I believe Old is supposed to provide better QSK performance 
while New reduces keying artifacts.

73,

John

Toby Pennington wrote:
 A friend of mine and I experiminted to see if the K3 could hear a bk during a 
 transmission at high speeds

 He was using the K3 with a pre BETA version,  and I was on a Icom 7700.   He 
 would send a macro at a high speed,  and I would try to break him using two 
 letters (ie).  Almost always he could hear my first break attempt.  We went 
 up to 75 wpm and he could still hear my bk. 

 So, we are wondering about what is going on concerning this thread.  Now,  it 
 is possible my friend is hearing between words,  but the bk could be heard 
 almost 100%. 

 My friend says the delay should be set to double zero on the K3 for it to 
 work

 Toby  W4CAK

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Re: [Elecraft] K3: QRQ high-speed QSK

[FredJensen]

Tom W8JI wrote:
 Who the heck is copying that and what are they copying???

 The highest speed record for a long time, of copying 
 unexpected text, was only around 70-80 WPM. That record held 
 the whole time I was growing up, and it was from the 30's I 
 think.

 It is certainly impossible to copy 300 WPM without decoding.

 I have some nagging questions about these speed claims.
   
Ted McElroy @ something like 74+ WPM back in the early thirties I think, 
I could Google it I guess.  The legend [urban or otherwise] is that the 
code began, he calmly sat down at the mill, lit a cigarette, took a 
couple of puffs, and then started pounding the keys.  The legend further 
states that after the run finished, he was still pounding the keys for 
some time [3-15 minutes ... 74.34 percent of people make up their own 
statistics so who knows].  That he did make record copy at that speed is 
without question, without the embellishment.  That the record hasn't 
been broken since suggests to me that it may be getting close to some 
physical limit.  Ted went on to found a company manufacturing keys and 
bugs of some fame.

I'm kind of with you Tom.  I can make solid record copy at 25 WPM or so 
if I don't have a glass of wine with dinner just before sitting down at 
the rig.  I can converse pretty well at 30-35 in my head, writing down 
only notes.  I can contest at D4B/C speeds so long as he doesn't send me 
very much and I have a pretty good idea what it's going to be :-)  Real 
conversation ... one which involves questions and meaningful answers ... 
at 100 WPM  or above  is something I'd like to see.   I'm not from  MO  
but  show  me.

I watched the QSK keying waveform from my K3 [#642] on my Tek scope 
sending just a string of dots.  It stays good based on what QST 
publishes in product reviews of good keying up to about 50 WPM.  Above 
that, it began to look squished in time, and at 60 or so was pretty 
square, somewhat uneven in time, and was sounding fairly rough in the 
monitor rx.  I think Elecraft says 45 WPM max which, since they seem to 
be a crafty bunch, would assure meeting their specification.

73,

Fred K6DGW
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Re: [Elecraft] K3: QRQ high-speed QSK

[Guy Olinger K2AV]

Honestly, that is the first time I have heard that.  Obviously did not
see the memo.  Back to OLD QSK.  Hurray.

Need to spend time doing more random word searches in the manual.

73, Guy.

On Sat, May 15, 2010 at 10:16 AM, John, KD8K j...@kd8k.com wrote:
 I am not sure if this has been mentioned yet, but another setting that
 may have an affect on this is switching between New QSK and OLD QSK
 by tapping 3 under the CW WGHT Menu Item. I think that the default is
 New. I believe Old is supposed to provide better QSK performance
 while New reduces keying artifacts.

 73,

 John

 Toby Pennington wrote:
 A friend of mine and I experiminted to see if the K3 could hear a bk during 
 a transmission at high speeds

 He was using the K3 with a pre BETA version,  and I was on a Icom 7700.   He 
 would send a macro at a high speed,  and I would try to break him using two 
 letters (ie).  Almost always he could hear my first break attempt.  We went 
 up to 75 wpm and he could still hear my bk.

 So, we are wondering about what is going on concerning this thread.  Now,  
 it is possible my friend is hearing between words,  but the bk could be 
 heard almost 100%.

 My friend says the delay should be set to double zero on the K3 for it to 
 work

 Toby  W4CAK

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Re: [Elecraft] K3: QRQ high-speed QSK

[Jan Erik Holm]

Something I never understood is QSK, ohh well that´s life!

Jim SM2EKM
---
On 2010-05-15 17:26, Guy Olinger K2AV wrote:
 Honestly, that is the first time I have heard that.  Obviously did not
 see the memo.  Back to OLD QSK.  Hurray.

 Need to spend time doing more random word searches in the manual.

 73, Guy.

 On Sat, May 15, 2010 at 10:16 AM, John, KD8Kj...@kd8k.com  wrote:
 I am not sure if this has been mentioned yet, but another setting that
 may have an affect on this is switching between New QSK and OLD QSK
 by tapping 3 under the CW WGHT Menu Item. I think that the default is
 New. I believe Old is supposed to provide better QSK performance
 while New reduces keying artifacts.

 73,

 John

 Toby Pennington wrote:
 A friend of mine and I experiminted to see if the K3 could hear a bk during 
 a transmission at high speeds

 He was using the K3 with a pre BETA version,  and I was on a Icom 7700.   
 He would send a macro at a high speed,  and I would try to break him using 
 two letters (ie).  Almost always he could hear my first break attempt.  We 
 went up to 75 wpm and he could still hear my bk.

 So, we are wondering about what is going on concerning this thread.  Now,  
 it is possible my friend is hearing between words,  but the bk could be 
 heard almost 100%.

 My friend says the delay should be set to double zero on the K3 for it to 
 work

 Toby  W4CAK
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[Elecraft] K3: QRQ high-speed QSK

[Ralph Parker]

Until Tom said I can't use my CW pulser with the K3, and now I know why.,
I would have said:

Use an external keyer (such as the Super CMos from Idiom Press) for your
tests.
Real men don't use built-in keyers.

And don't mistake the 'sound' of 100 WPM for a slowed-down version.
It ain't the same.
 
VE7XF

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